The use of the term "Gay" and Others

Chong

Ok first off this is my first time posting here on the LGB board, I am a heterosexual but I just want to gauge the community's opinion. In college and school the term gay is banded about alot, its seems to be the main slag people throw amongst men more over. I wanna know what is your opinion on how homosexual terms are used so commonly when trying to insult someone and why do you think people feel the need to use these insults.

Boston

Heres a recent thread from the trinity forum on the word knacker, and how it relates to travelers. Many of the arguments will be similiar.

One of the worst things you can do to a man, is emasculate him. Homosexual stereotypes are always very effeminate. By equating someone to a homosexual, people are often trying to emasculate him. It's a similar thing with woman and being called dykes, except the implication is that they are frigid/barren/desolate and manly. This is why these terms are insults imho.

damien

I have a strong issue with people using the word gay as a method to insult and belittle someone. Would you use the word jew, black or muslim to point out someone is inferior? You don't see people saying "Dude that's so jew" yet it is quite accepted that people use the phrase "You are the gay".

The very weak counter-argument generally goes something like "That wasn't you're word to start with, you people took it and used it and now the meaning of the word is changing again so deal with it." which doesn't actually answer the question and shows people will never compromise and allow for balance.

It doesn't answer the fact that the meaning of it for the past 30-40 years is to describe homosexuals and then someone decided to use it to attack someone else and make them feel inferior. Instead of saying "Maybe this isn't the best way to belittle someone" or heavens forbid "Maybe I need to get on with my life and not be so bitchy" it turns into a "God, would you people ever just get over yourselves. We're taking this word now and you never had a right to it."

To me though one of the issues is that there are kids in schools who are coming around to the fact that they are gay and are internally saying "Hmm, I think I like someone of the same sex, oh, right, I think I'm gay" and every 15 minutes they are witnessing people who associate the word they are going to use to describe themselves with something that is wrong, broken and inferior. Wow, I guess I'm saying "Won't someone think of the children?" or some such thing. I wonder does this current trend make it harder for kids to come out instead of easier?

Back when I used the yellum account (and before stark ratted me out that I had two accounts and got that account killed off) I had a public spat with one of the admins on this site who said it was acceptable to ridicule someones signature by calling it gay and if people (as in the gays) didn't like it we could piss off because it was his site at the end of the day and he decided what went and what didn't.

I did actually piss off thought quitely or I'd be accused of fitting the comfortable stereotype they want us to assume and had my modships removed and only came back to the site because the IrelandOffline forum is here and I'm on the committee and this is where we interacted with our supporters. If the same thing happened again I might not leave because I'm now all full of karma or whatever and realise that even good sites can be owned by assholes but there's a balance in place because there are also pure angels that run and own this site. Just like there are assholes and angels in the real world.

As to why people use it to attack someone, the real question is why do people attack each other so frequently.

You don't need to use the word gay to attack someone, that's just lazy. You don't need black, jew, hearing-impaired, anorexic, blue-eyed, tall or Irish either. There's enough words out there to use, or maybe attack someone with logic and sense or maybe not attack people at all. But I doubt humanity is ready to do that yet.

Boston

cough

Nevyn

The same is done with the word rape by the same people.
It doesn't make it right, funny or clever to use it in a casual context when refering to computer games.
Arguement that language evolves doesn't apply here as these terms are only being used by a small subset of people, oddly enough young males full of bravado.

solice

Ok, im in a class of engineers, a class full of manly beer drinking long hair soccer worshiping boy racers. The term gay and **** have been thrown about so loosely for the last four years that i have found myself using it myself.
Its gotten to the point where its no longer used to describe just people, it has been used when describing the notes given by certain lecturers, the position that someone is sitting in respect to the board, the seats, the computers and certain programmes like matlab. I dont feel offended by it cos I know these people. I know they mean no harm when they say it and I dont take offence when they do.
I imagine to someone outside of the group looking in, it may come across that they are being abusive, disrespectful and are demeaning a group of people, I couldnt care less. The same people have stood by me countless times and make me laugh every day.

Dont judge a book and all that jazz comes to mind.

Chong

solice wrote:

Ok, im in a class of engineers, a class full of manly beer drinking long hair soccer worshiping boy racers. The term gay and **** have been thrown about so loosely for the last four years that i have found myself using it myself.
Its gotten to the point where its no longer used to describe just people, it has been used when describing the notes given by certain lecturers, the position that someone is sitting in respect to the board, the seats, the computers and certain programmes like matlab. I dont feel offended by it cos I know these people. I know they mean no harm when they say it and I dont take offence when they do.
I imagine to someone outside of the group looking in, it may come across that they are being abusive, disrespectful and are demeaning a group of people, I couldnt care less. The same people have stood by me countless times and make me laugh every day.

Dont judge a book and all that jazz comes to mind.

I have to say your post somes up the situation where I am coming from.

damien

I know they mean no harm when they say it and I dont take offence when they do. I imagine to someone outside of the group looking in, it may come across that they are being abusive, disrespectful and are demeaning a group of people, I couldnt care less. The same people have stood by me countless times and make me laugh every day.

Ian Paisley is apparently a really nice man too even if he calls the Pope the anti-Christ and has strong issues with Judaism. He's quite the family man too and has been known to be very good to the Catholics in his constituency. History is full of really nice racists and people who have butchered black people, muslims, gays and Christians have all been classed as real family men.

Would you let those same friends use the word jew or black to denigrate something or someone? Would they let you? Gay is ok though? For now? Do you laugh at their jokes about hanging ni.ggers from trees or is that taboo for now?

That attitude is symptomatic of the creeping hatred that first seeps into a society via tame enough insults which become stronger over time and then additional minority groups get targeted such as "Blacks in the jacks" and "cornershop pakis" and much later we have Martin Niemoeller poems wondering where it all went wrong and wishing people had stopped people from going too far.

"Ah no, I'm friends with them, they're ok" is an asinine excuse.

damien

Thaedydal wrote:

The same is done with the word rape by the same people.

I happily ended friendships over that word.

Boston

solice wrote:

Ok, im in a class of engineers, a class full of manly beer drinking long hair soccer worshiping boy racers. The term gay and **** have been thrown about so loosely for the last four years that i have found myself using it myself.
Its gotten to the point where its no longer used to describe just people, it has been used when describing the notes given by certain lecturers, the position that someone is sitting in respect to the board, the seats, the computers and certain programmes like matlab. I dont feel offended by it cos I know these people. I know they mean no harm when they say it and I dont take offence when they do.
I imagine to someone outside of the group looking in, it may come across that they are being abusive, disrespectful and are demeaning a group of people, I couldnt care less. The same people have stood by me countless times and make me laugh every day.

Dont judge a book and all that jazz comes to mind.

The engineering thing is an excuse, a stupid one at that. I've been an engineer for three years, so I'm used to my fellow class mates picking peanuts out of their poo in class, and chucking fist fulls of sperm at the attractive ladies. Engineers are people who have gone onto third level education, and should be intelligent enough to know a bit of decorum. Do you think its right for them to talk in the fashion they do? Will you be making excuses tomorrow or the day after when you work with them?

For three years I've been an engineer, and for two of them I've been out to my class. I can count on one hand the number of times people have used the word fag or gay as a put down in my presence. It is abusive, its a shame you don't see that.

Edit (that was very reactionary)

I understand there is a fine line between not wanting to be seen as your sexuality and also not wanting it to be the source of abuse towards others or yourself. I walk that line myself. But you are what you are, theirs no point in pretending that when someone uses the word **** or gay, in a derogatory fashion, it’s not an attack.

I’ve a lecturer, who is probably gay, definitely an arsehole. Class mates and friends don’t rip into him for being gay even though it would be a soft target, I guess out of respect for myself and the other queer guys in the year.

You’ve spent four years putting up with this bull****, that s a testament to you and who you are. No one here can judge you for how you dealt with it, and it’s important that you don’t think I am. But a question, are you out? If not, do you think that the way these guys tossed about fag and gay affected that? If you are out, you mentioned that to an outsider looking it, it would seem like allot of abuse, what effective might that have had on other people struggling to come out in that environment?

I feel words escape me on this, it’s very hard to sum up how I feel, or how it feels when you hear ****, in that oh so familiar tone directed at someone. You getting a feeling in the pit of your stomach and it kind of works it way up your back to your neck, and as your muscles tighten and contract you know that feelings not going anywhere, you just have to ride it out. Your fists clench and the atmosphere dies as every time you’ve heard that word comes flooding back to you, every time your father used it in your presence, while you secretly suspected he knew, every time you saw someone cough up blood because the wounds from the kicking the received months previous haven’t healed, every time it was used to set you apart. It all comes back. I don’t like that feeling, and I don’t like the way I get when it’s hanging over me.

Hmm_Messiah

solice wrote:

Ok, im in a class of engineers, a class full of manly beer drinking long hair soccer worshiping boy racers. The term gay and **** have been thrown about so loosely for the last four years that i have found myself using it myself.
Its gotten to the point where its no longer used to describe just people, it has been used when describing the notes given by certain lecturers, the position that someone is sitting in respect to the board, the seats, the computers and certain programmes like matlab. I dont feel offended by it cos I know these people. I know they mean no harm when they say it and I dont take offence when they do.
I imagine to someone outside of the group looking in, it may come across that they are being abusive, disrespectful and are demeaning a group of people, I couldnt care less. The same people have stood by me countless times and make me laugh every day.

Dont judge a book and all that jazz comes to mind.

makes sense to me .

but wasn't all this discussed a wee while ago? with the same differences of opinion(with the same few intolerant of differing opinion, opting to insult posters with versions of intellectual elitism which they don't seem to find offensive)

What LiouVille said , I appreciate very much. but words are less important than the intent behind them. Sure words have power (as a Wiccan i'd even see that power as multiplied) but there are times people use the word gay to belittle, attack etc, and sometimes its simple slagging. At work I've used it, and colleagues have used that, and innuendo with me. We laugh. other work colleagues say other things, maybe even less obvious, but their intent is vicious and homophobic (and pathetic) Its not whats said it who says them, and why.

I also understand what Damien says about a schoolkid dealing with his sexuality in that environment, but not sure if its a big a thing as he suggests. I guess guys in school now could say if its their experience. I taught a transition class , and gay etc was often used to slag people off, the same kids welcomed my boyfriend, bought drinks etc. Because they didn't see a connection, either did we. in real terms there wasn't a connection.

I appreciate oher people see things differently. I can understand why, I don't see a need to criticise them, or insist they are wrong.

the real question is why do people attack each other so frequently........
There's enough words out there to use, or maybe attack someone with logic and sense or maybe not attack people at all.

That is the real question.

damien

Uncle Tom's or stockholm syndrome?

Crucifix

I don't mean to lower the tone of the discussion, it just reminded me of this: http://robandelliot.cycomics.com/archive.php?id=100

Boston

You can talk about intent all you want. The effect is the topic under consideration. Intent to cause offense differentiates the bigots from the ignorant. They don’t mean to be offensive is little comfort to someone going through school or work, and having to deal with this bull. I think you underestimate the effect it has on people. It’s makes the difference between being comfortable with your sexuality as work/school/college and not being comfortable.

In my arguments about knackers and travelers I never once argued that travelers shouldn’t find the term offensive, merely because sometimes the terms isn’t directed at them, or isn’t intended to offend them. It’s the same here. If you crush a Childs spirit, who really cares if you meant to or not?

Nevyn

damien.m wrote:

I happily ended friendships over that word.

Certain things are taboo and shocking words and term for a reason.
When they are used in a way that shows disreguard for the meaning of the term then it is showing disreguard for people and disrespecting them.

I certainly don't tolerate in people arround me racism, sexism, creedism or use of the terms rape or any destructice comments.

I am not a pc nut and can certainly take and give a good slagging but the
use of certain words shows a inherant lack of respect.

What ever use you make of the term in private ( My own attitude to wards the word Cuunt is not the standard one but I would not use it in company if there was any chance anyone would be offended ) it is one thing but in company
in public where they will cause offense and hurt simply don't use them.

LegacyUser

Surely its the intent behind the word which should cause offence and not the word itself.

When you call someone a bastard, you're not insulting them for being illegitimate, its just a word. If you call someone a w*nker, you're not implying that they constantly masturbate.

I have to admit that I very occasionally, well once actually, used the word **** to insult somebody. And that was in a conversation about Louis Walsh. I didn't say it because I thought he was gay and wanted to insult him about that, it was simply an offensive term, like bastard or w*nker. The implications of the word didn't occur to me, until my friend pointed out we were in the George at the time.

Nevyn

If bastard was not such a loaded term even with the illegitmate status of children not being applicible under irish law then Kevin Meyers would not have had to say he was sorry for calling all children of parents who are not married Bastards in his colum.

Hmm_Messiah

damien.m wrote:

Uncle Tom's or stockholm syndrome?

Your ability to appreciate an differing opinion is... underwhelming. tolerating slagging equates to stockholm syndrome.

The effect is the topic under consideration.

Not how I read the original post. And if you are concentrating on the effect I dealt with that so no point rehasing it.

I think you underestimate the effect it has on people

ANd I wonder if you are over-estimating. I gave my personal opinion, my personal experience. I fully understand how hurtful/damaging it can be for some for their sexuality or any aspect of their person to be insulted, or cause them to be threatened. I see that though as different from the slagging and use of word "gay" I understand the OP to be talking about.

I've often described some one's shirt/hairstyle/whatever as "very gay" etc. In those cases its understood how I mean it. Why? because of stereotypes gay people, not straight people, perpetuate.

Certain things are taboo and shocking words and term for a reason.

True. but that reason need not be a good one. Clerical sex abuse, childbirth outside of marriage, being gay!, mental illness in traveller community etc etc have all been Taboo. Some might argue while anything remains taboo, it gives power to some while dis-empowering those who most need a voice.

Even the sexual terms u speak of. When sexual swear words are more tolerated as I understand it some young women have been more capable of expressing abuse when inflicked on them etc.

However I'd agree Respect is paramount. And maybe thats my point; when mates slag/mess using the term "gay" they don't disrespect me. And its patronising for others to say they know better and take offence on my behalf.

Boston

Hmm_Messiah wrote:

ANd I wonder if you are over-estimating. I gave my personal opinion, my personal experience. I fully understand how hurtful/damaging it can be for some for their sexuality or any aspect of their person to be insulted, or cuse them to be threatened. I see that though as different from the slaging and use of word "gay" I understand the OP to be talking about.

Some people live with it, and get on with it, that doesn't make it ok.

I've often described some ones shirt/hairstyle/whatever as "very gay" etc. In those cases its understood hw I mean it because of stereotypes gay people, not straight people, perpetuate.

But when you decribe something as gay, are you saying it's bad/crap? Or are you saying its stereotypical

However I'd agree Respect is paramount. And maybe thats my point; when mates slag/mess using the term "gay" they don't disrespect me.

I persume you come up with some witty retort about them being hetrosexual? You're on an equal level with your mates, if you wheren't, I think you would feel some what differently. If it's just you and everyone around you thinks using terms like gay and **** to describe crappy thinks and people it would be allot harder. Also mates are a poor example, with stangers you often can only go by what they say, when it comes to judging them. Friends prove themselves through actions and being there for you. So what they say is much less likely to have an negative effect, if you know how they feel.

LegacyUser

Thaedydal wrote:

If bastard was not such a loaded term even with the illegitmate status of children not being applicible under irish law then Kevin Meyers would not have had to say he was sorry for calling all children of parents who are not married Bastards in his colum.

Well, thats my point. He had to apologise for his intent in using such a word. Yet one newspaper had a front page headline with just the word "Bastards" when they were reporting the murder of Donna Cleary. I think it was the Star, but I'm not sure. The intent was different, which is why Kevin Meyers had to apologise.

metrovelvet

I have to disagree with the whole INTENTION theory. Words are defined by their context thats true, but no matter what I claim my intention is,if I use the word ****** its offensive. If I say no no, I meant it as a term of endearment, thats just laughable.

Its like Irish people who use the word half caste, I mean come on. I find that sickening but they think its ok.

I use the word gay all the time, especially to describe Robbie Williams videos. and George Clooney:p

As for the BASTARD usage, that was clearly a context is which it was offensive because it was being used in a literal way in which to demote and categorise certain children and their parents. When you use it in its more casual non literal meaning it doesnt carry the offensiveness.

Tar.Aldarion

Hmm, I call a lot of things gay, those damn chairs in my friends house, for example.
It has not got anything to do with where it originated as an insult, I'm not insulting anybody. I never call people gay as an insult, that's just a coincidence though, I'm more,eh, imaginative.
When you decribe something as gay, I am saying it is bad/crap, I am not saying homosexuals are bad/crap.
I'm sure there are a lot of homophobes out there, I know none of my friends that say it are, that's all that matters to my friends to happen to be gay, that's all that matters to me.
One thing annoys me from one of my gay friends, well she stopped it now. .Eg, "don't use the term gay, it's so retarded.", if you get the jist of where I am going with that.
I love when people say to a guy, " you kissed a girl, that's so gay".

angelofdeath

yeah i too agree its about the intention behind it, and you can pretty much tell most of the time if it's meant to be offensive or not, i find myself joking about with the gf often saying stuff like "turn that music off, its teh gay" which for me is due to watching too much purepwnage:)

Boston

But can you not see a link between gay = bad/crap things and people, homosexuals are gay, therefore homosexuals are bad/crap things and people? Of course this logic doesn't take into account that a word may have different meanings depending on context. Gay is often used as an adjective, a verb and a noun. I'm at a stage in my live where the use of Gay doesn't really bother me, however to someone whose confused and nervious, the contant derogatory use of the term around them, may make it seem like they are surrounded by people who view Gay people as bad/crap.

wrt to the intent thing, I'm reminded of that John lennon song, jealous guy.

I didn't mean to hurt you,
I'm sorry that I mad you cry,
I didn't want to hurt you,
I'm just a jealous guy,

It really doesn't matter what you meant when you've hurt someone. Just because you don't feel that it's something to get upset over or just because you can tell if it's meant as an attack, doesn't mean they feel or think the same way you do.

angelofdeath

a verb? to gay..

if the person who gets upset because someone says "thats teh gay" can't tell that it's meant to be humourous and not offensive, then the problem is with them, and i dont feel the need to curtail my language and be all pc around people

Tar.Aldarion

LiouVille wrote:

But can you not see a link between gay = bad/crap things and people, homosexuals are gay, therefore homosexuals are bad/crap things and people?

Mymind doesn't work like that I'm sfraid. "Oh wait a minute, gay = bad/crap things and people, homosexuals are gay, therefore homosexuals are bad/crap things and people".
I'm sure if somebody believes that being gay is a bad thing, then yes, they will see it like that.
But then, there is also this:

Of course this logic doesn't take into account that a word may have different meanings depending on context. Gay is often used as an adjective, a verb and a noun.

however to someone whose confused and nervious, the contant derogatory use of the term around them, may make it seem like they are surrounded by people who view Gay people as bad/crap.

I'm sure it happens a lot, remembering back to school. But, if somebody who is secretly gay and is nervous or whatever hears people using it in a derogatory way, at least they will know not to tell that person as they can't trust them. It's better not to have the homophobes being secretly homophobic. If they told the wrong person in school then that would be hell for them.
However, since everybody uses gay, well, where I went to school, it is hard for them. You just have to base it on a persons personality. My friends knew what I was like, obviously and so when young, they felt comfortable going, "...I'm gay". They just really get an "ya eh Ok" answer from me."I kind of knew."
Some people do seem to think there is something wrong with them as teenagers and I was glad to tell them there was not.
The way I see it is, if everybody is going around saying gay, then look at a persons personality, it's pretty obvious what they are like. It was obvious I and people I would associate with, were not like that.
Although, it's hard to be rational and see that,as a teenager, I suppose. That's why one waited until 18 to say. It was pretty gay that she didn't trust me.

damien

I know, instead of using "child molester" let's change it to Dubliner and lets use the word "specialOlympicsChild" instead of broken.

I'm sick to death of all the specialOlympicsChild seats on the buses. Why doesn't Dublin bus fixed the damned specialOlympicsChild seats instead of wasting money on websites?

Another Dubliner was released from prison and let back into the community. Parents are really worried that this Dubliner might reoffend and sexually abuse their children despite the person getting treated while in prison.

But sure my mate that's a Dubliner and not a child molester knows what my intention is when I use those words. People aren't stupid, they know the difference.

damien

Tar.Aldarion wrote:

But, if somebody who is secretly gay and is nervous or whatever hears people using it in a derogatory way, at least they will know not to tell that person as they can't trust them. It's better not to have the homophobes being secretly homophobic. If they told the wrong person in school then that would be hell for them.

Holy christ, that's some fcked up logic. So it is better to live in an environment where homophobes aren't discouraged because you know who they are?

damien

angelofdeath wrote:

then the problem is with them, and i dont feel the need to curtail my language and be all pc around people

Using the word correctly and in a non-hostile way is not pc. pc is creating new words so not to offend people. What you and your ilk do by taking a word that describes peoples' sexuality to use it to belittle something is just being ignorant and offensive.

Tar.Aldarion

damien.m wrote:

I know, instead of using "child molester" let's change it to Dubliner and lets use the word "specialOlympicsChild" instead of broken.

I'm sick to death of all the specialOlympicsChild seats on the buses. Why doesn't Dublin bus fixed the damned specialOlympicsChild seats instead of wasting money on websites?

Another Dubliner was released from prison and let back into the community. Parents are really worried that this Dubliner might reoffend and sexually abuse their children despite the person getting treated while in prison.

But sure my mate that's a Dubliner and not a child molester knows what my intention is when I use those words. People aren't stupid, they know the difference.

Hmm, I have no problems with that.
If it was so common, so as to be not associated with the original meaning and was to have another meaning now.
Like **** being a piece of wood and an insult,
gay being several things now.
Your example is void until this happens. those words are not commonly used like that. It would be wrong at first but with the next generation nothing derogatory would be meant.
Words change meaning, it doesn't matter what the original reason for that change was.
Sweetheart basically originates to somebody being a good hooker, I don't think I had better stop calling gals that now.

damien

Ah I know. Lets use the word "AndrewAlexanderGildea" instead of "impotent". Viagra helps those that are ""AndrewAlexanderGildea". Erectile dysfuctions make many men "AndrewAlexanderGildea" and cause quite a lot of stress and anxiety. Many men get counselling because they are "AndrewAlexanderGildea".