ESAT BT Dossier - Documents, complaints, wanted

surveys

Myself and some others have agreed to send a 'dossier' to the Director of european operations in BT HQ in London. Anyone interested in joining please contact. Esat has caused so many nightmares, we have to do something about it. In addition they are undermining all the marvellous work IOFL have done this past few years because their actions are going to restrict broadband takeup, which is the very thing IOFL have been triving so hard to obtain. With so much success and credit under their belts, why should we allow it to be undermined by the incredible stupidy and bad management of ESAT ? If we take ESAT to task and get results surely all the other providers will sit up and get their act together as well ? The power really IS with the consumer, and the consumers of ESAT have put up with too much for too long. It appears that Irish BB is also going the way of ESAT, so hopefully severe action with ESAT will have an affect on IBB and maybe others as well ? At this stage I am not quite sure how to collect everything from interested members who want to join in. Maybe a private message where I will give each one my email address, and my postal address for those who have many documents. ? Perhaps the committee would like to take up this matter themselves, and handle it in their own way. ? Over to you Guys (and girls)

Sapele

1st addition to the file sent ......

philologos

I think BT Ireland provide a great service with very little downtime. If anything you should be asking Eircom to unbundle the exchanges. You should had listened to the discussion on Newstalk 106 this morning.

Sponge Bob

I think he means their Billing and Customer service. Their technology is fine.

surveys

Obviously somebody is lucky with ESAT. I am happy for anybody who is, but I fear the majority have had a horrible time with them. ! The technology, as Bob rightly said is great. I have no problems with that. In fact my connection has been so good, it is the ONLY reason I am still with ESAT !! If it were not for that I would have 'gone like the proverbial hare' Its the administration and the billing of that service which is so horrendous. ! Together with departments not knowing what other departments are doing. Bad (non existant) training. Broken promises time after time, and sometimes outright lies. !
A pitty I was not on 'Newstalk' I have never listened to it, but I can imagine just what I would have said, except they would have cut us off air. !!

federerfan

I know that BT muppets read this board.
Do you think they give a crap about us? I dont think so, there are way too many soft direct debits about to have them worry about a few tech heads that frequent here.

I gave up on my situation after I was told by BT that I was being rude to the complaints officer (after 15calls & 13 emails), and that "she was only doing her job"

But get this, all I wanted to know was how much I owed them...yep, thats it.

But I'll vote with my money and go elswhere...

Good luck with the campaign

fedfan

philologos

the issues involved with the broadband rollout lie with Eircom.. they should never have full ownership over the ADSL exchanges

dub45

Jakkass wrote:

the issues involved with the broadband rollout lie with Eircom.. they should never have full ownership over the ADSL exchanges

Can you not see that no one in this thread except your good self is talking about broadband rollout? what is at issue is Esat's lousy billing department.

surveys

But those are exactly the issues. Fedfan. (1)They don't give a crap. but they should. ! (2) You made legitimate complaints via 28 communications and got nowhere, and was told "she is only doing her job. ! They have to be made to be concerned about their horrendous image and the damage they are doing to the BB industry. They have to realise that 'only doing her job' and doing it terribly badly is just not good enough. ! I am not quite sure what you meant by "soft direct debits" ? That they can debit their customers via the DD system even if its wrong, or the customer does not owe money. ?? That's probably what you meant. ? If thats true then thats an even more powerful reason to stop them ?
Lastly, "voting with your money" ? Do you think ESAT give a crap about 'your' money going elsewhere. ?? That is precisely what is wrong with them. They don't give a crap about anything, and its about time they were made to care. ?
Question ? If Eircom were good do you think ESAT would have one solitary customer left on their books ? "Tech heads" ?? Please explain. !!

dahamsta

Here's my "file", help yourself.

http://www.btirelandsucks.com/

adam

anthonymcg

I've had my problems with BT but I won't be replying to this survey as anyone who has:

People Power -Lets Finish Esat for good

in their sig is either 15 or misguided. You want them to reform their customer service more than anything else.

dahamsta

Some might argue they're beyond reform. How many years have they had to fix their billing system?

surveys

Now I really do think thats a great signature. !!

"" Eddie Hobbs said my blog is "f*cking brilliant"

Enough said.

federerfan

Ken Shabby wrote:

Some might argue they're beyond reform. How many years have they had to fix their billing system?

Dam right...

Take O2 or Vodafone for example, cant they (BT) buy a billing system off some other crowd?

I mean, how hard is it?


Maybe the internal muppets are designing it..... :rolleyes:


Fedfan

Fighting Irish

Jakkass wrote:

I think BT Ireland provide a great service with very little downtime. If anything you should be asking Eircom to unbundle the exchanges. You should had listened to the discussion on Newstalk 106 this morning.

.

Ihave had Esat BT + for about 2 years and its never stopped working and i have never got **** speeds

dub45

Fighting Irish wrote:

.

Ihave had Esat BT + for about 2 years and its never stopped working and i have never got **** speeds

No one is disputing the quality of their actual service:rolleyes:

dahamsta

federerfan wrote:

Maybe the internal muppets are designing it.

Apparently it's a rather pricey system, developed by one of Siebel or Siemens (the former would seem the obvious choice, but you wouldn't know with this crowd). When I was dicussing my own issue with the "Head of Consumer Sales & Service" - this is a good while ago now - we had a long chat about BT Ireland's processes in general, and he told me that they were in the process of upgrading it at the time. Doesn't seem to have changed anything. I didn't think it would, the software is far from the only factor involved -- training is probably a bigger issue.

(Lest I get him in trouble, he didn't tell me who developed it or how much it cost, I got that from another source.)

And no, no-one is disputing the quality of their service. I still have it, because technically it's very reliable. However saying that BTI is a good company because of that is rather like saying that Saddam Hussein was the kiddy because his military ran a tight ship.

adam

dub45

Ken Shabby wrote:

Apparently it's a rather pricey system, developed by one of Siebel or Siemens (the former would seem the obvious choice, but you wouldn't know with this crowd). When I was dicussing my own issue with the "Head of Consumer Sales & Service" - this is a good while ago now - we had a long chat about BT Ireland's processes in general, and he told me that they were in the process of upgrading it at the time. Doesn't seem to have changed anything. I didn't think it would, the software is far from the only factor involved -- training is probably a bigger issue.

,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,ussein was the kiddy because his military ran a tight ship.

adam

I dont want to hijack the thread in raising this point but what I cannot understand it how their own management can stand over a system that has been so bad for so long? Surely its inaccuracies should cause serious concern for their auditors even? And the amount of extra work that must be generated internally by wrong billing must be extremely costly? And surely a system that risks bringing not just Esat Ireland but the whole Company into serious disrepute must or should give whoever has to vouch for proper corporate controls and processes some concern? It hopefully must only be a matter of time until somebody like the Joe Duffy show gives them a good going over?

federerfan

dub45 wrote:

I dont want to hijack the thread in raising this point but what I cannot understand it how their own management can stand over a system that has been so bad for so long? Surely its inaccuracies should cause serious concern for their auditors even? And the amount of extra work that must be generated internally by wrong billing must be extremely costly? And surely a system that risks bringing not just Esat Ireland but the whole Company into serious disrepute must or should give whoever has to vouch for proper corporate controls and processes some concern? It hopefully must only be a matter of time until somebody like the Joe Duffy show gives them a good going over?

Good point, but heres the thing. Why is anything implemented in a company?

To have a positive effect on the bottom line, thats how business works.

The BT billing fiasco is very obviously not having an effect on their bottom line, otherwise it sure would be fixed long time ago.

The sheer numbers of new signups must outweigh any incurred costs generated by mistakes....

But heres an example of what I call soft Direct Debits:

My friend who owns a small business got DSL when it was first rolled out. He was paying 90 euro a month for 512k, yep 90 euro A MONTH FOR 512K.

That was 2 1/2 years ago. Guess what hes paying now? Yep you guessed it, 90 euro a month, for what speed? Yep you guessed it, 512k.

That was until he told me of course, lol, but now he is in the quagmire that is BT customer service...

I wonder how many of him are out there.....

Fedfan

Saruman

Fighting Irish wrote:

.

Ihave had Esat BT + for about 2 years and its never stopped working and i have never got **** speeds

Their BB is excellent.. no problems there.. The problem is their complete LACK of customer service... i have been TRYING to get their all in one phone,BB line rental package since the deal for €25 for 4 months then 40 after that.. i signed up for it but only got the BB, the telephony package dissapeared... I then ordered it yet again, was put through to a voice recording guy who recorded me accepting the terms.. its as legal as me signing a contract.. that was weeks ago and still nothing.. this all started in January!!
They never answer emails, hell it takes days to even get the automated response saying they even got my email in the first place!! And phoning them is no good.. all i get is Qbuster saying they will call me back and keep my place in Q.. in fairness THIS DOES WORK and i get a call BUT there is no help there.. always "oh our billing system is offline" or some crap so they cant check details or orders etc...

As for their broadband? Its fine.. never a problem.

Fighting Irish

dub45 wrote:

No one is disputing the quality of their actual service:rolleyes:

So whats this all about? The OP needs to paragraph his **** :mad:

dub45

Fighting Irish wrote:

So whats this all about? The OP needs to paragraph his **** :mad:

Funnily enough the rest of us managed to read it - try taking it one sentence at a time...........

Zynks

I've been on BT's BB for 1 1/2year, and as many other have said above, the quality is spot on. However, last October I went for their line rental + BB package and the billing issues started on the first bill. I basically have been overcharged, not much, just about €45, but every time I get a bill I have to call them and discuss it over and over again and I always assured it will be fixed on the next bill. I am still waiting...

In BT's defense, their customer service people have been very good and genuinely made a good effort. They always call back when I use the option, and in other occasions they have gone the extra mile on other issues.

Thus, my problem is ONLY with their billing, but what really concerns me is that there must be a LOT of people out there who are paying without checking their bills, and it could be amounting to millions of euro in overcharge.

If that is the case, writing to the head office is only part of what should be done. The regulator, the press and consumer affairs should be pulled into the discussion and maybe some sort of inspection of their books should be done because if they just fix their system they will get away with a lot of money that doesn't belong to them.

surveys

There are some good points being raised on the thread now. Zynks raised a good idea about copying everything to ComReg, the Press, Consumer Affairs, etc. Dub45 had already suggested Consumer Affairs as well.
I agree that there might well be loads of people being 'quietly' ripped off by Billing Dept. Many people (too many) are very lazy about checking things, so I think its a high probability. ? You only have to watch people at ATM's. ! Not bothering with a receipt, or throwing the receipt away !
Saruman seems to having lots of problems too !
Federerfan also raised a good point about 'internal auditors'. I will add this point to my letter to BTHQ. Incidently if I copy and paste a lot of these replies and include them as a digest in the letter to his 'nibs' does anybody object. ? It would be more 'authentic' if I included the 'nickname' of the person adding the comment, again if nobody objects. ?
Unfortunately nobody else except Sapele has submitted anything. Yet. !

dahamsta

There's no point in sending individual complaints, in any shape or form. BT have been receiving individual complaints for years and they've done nothing to act on them, they're not going to change all of a sudden now no matter what they say.

Build the "dossier" with as much information as possible, from as many users as possible; have it delivered, by courier, on a set date; copy it, by courier, to everyone that matters (including the media). If more people come along after the set date - they will if you get publicity, which should happen if you handle it right - set another date and start another dossier. I'd suggest a three-month collection period, with a "campaign" once a month on forums like these to bring it back into the public eye.

I'll put money towards the courier costs and any other expenses; if there are any other technical resources you need, don't be afraid to ask. I'm sure IrelandOffline would be happy to help too. At the very least, feel free to use TelcoWatch for organisational purposes; privately (i.e. private forums) if necessary.

adam

surveys

I did not mean 'seperate' or individual complaints. Cut & Paste was to paste the comments into my own letter. The request for documents from others who have had a bad time was for attaching to my 'own' letter. Not seperated in any way, but just adding weight to my own letter and pages of 'headaches'.
Incidently. WHY does this 'board' keep cutting me off and asking me to log back in. ? Its darned annoying. !!:mad:

dahamsta

Fair enough, just making sure.

If you're running an older browser, upgrade. If you're up to date, try clearing your cookies and your cache, and restarting your browser.

adam

philologos

dub45 wrote:

No one is disputing the quality of their actual service:rolleyes:

theres worse than BT...

Kazu

there a shower of ****ers i had anytime 150hr dialup for four months during the summer they took 350 euro out of my account which should only have been 120 euro i rang to complain and all iam getting is a 50 euro refund which i havnt seen yet will never deal with them again :mad: :mad:

dahamsta

No offense mate, but if you're down €180 and you just accept it, that's your lookout. Want to buy a bridge? I have this lovely one in London...

cynos

They havent billed me since feb 2005 and in december 2005 I asked for a copy of the bill and i'd pay what I owed
but they couldnt produce a bill
I get threatning letters once a week and when i ring they promise to send out the up2 date invoice, but insttead send out threats.
also all there letters use non existant names
Shower of C***s

Kazu

No offense mate, but if you're down €180 and you just accept it, that's your lookout. Want to buy a bridge? I have this lovely one in London...

listen this thread is about esat billing complaints so take a run of your ****ing bridge mate

podgeandrodge

cynos wrote:

They havent billed me since feb 2005 and in december 2005 I asked for a copy of the bill and i'd pay what I owed
but they couldnt produce a bill
I get threatning letters once a week and when i ring they promise to send out the up2 date invoice, but insttead send out threats.
also all there letters use non existant names
Shower of C***s

My parents were with them for a year and a half - they got the first bill and never got another bill despite my ringing them hundreds of times begging them to charge us - finally after 18 months when I rang them again they said they had calculated the bill and would deduct it in one go! Was going to argue with them about spreading it out but they marked the bill paid and brought the outstanding balance to zero - but never took the money out of the bank account! My parents have left Esat now and never heard another word - that was 8 months ago.

Sponge Bob

Kazu wrote:

listen this thread is about esat billing complaints

LOL

He (of all people) knows what this thread is about and has done far more to actively challenge BT about their crap billing than you ever did Kazu .

dahamsta

Kazu wrote:

listen this thread is about esat billing complaints so take a run of your ****ing bridge mate

Lovely.

The summer was half a year away fella, you're obviously not having much success. To them, you're a cute grey thing with a bell that occasionally goes under the sofa -- great fun, if a little frustrating at times. Don't get mad - particularly with me, I'm just telling you like it is - get even.

http://oasis.gov.ie/justice/small_claims_court/small_claims_court.html

It's "off" by the way. "Take a run off your ***ing bridge." See?

federerfan

Maybe we should do like this guy ! :

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/england/manchester/4810490.stm

"Accountant sues bank over charges"


Fedfan

surveys

Please no 'bickering' you guys. ! Take it easy. There was too much 'infighting' in the old forums of IOFFL and thats why I left it. Money is an emotive issue for sure, second only perhaps to sex and good health but humour is one of the best things in life too and I felt the reference to 'buying the bridge' was so funny I have not stopped laughing since. I was having a bad day so that little piece of humour did me a world of good.!!:) Although our 'pockets' are being hit, our sense of humour should be kept intact, and help us to look at everything objectively. ? Take is easy 'Ken'. There is more very useful info appearing on here every day, and I am copying and pasting all the good ones. I hope more will come and add their 'headaches' too. ? The more we get the better it will be.

Moriarty

Off-topic clutter deleted.

On topic again please ladies and gents.

demosuzki

Kazu wrote:

there a shower of ****ers i had anytime 150hr dialup for four months during the summer they took 350 euro out of my account which should only have been 120 euro i rang to complain and all iam getting is a 50 euro refund which i havnt seen yet will never deal with them again :mad: :mad:

i've had similar

shut down the account but they kept charging
200 euro before I noticed

real pain trying to get anyone to deal with
finially they say they have no record of me closing down (i used their website)
we agree to split the difference (as I cursed the robbing f*rkers)
but they don't pay.
I then hassle more (25 emails)
get an apology and a promise to cut a cheque by march 2nd

no cheque

still no answer to calls or emails


I was going to get a new broadband servie
their deal is the best on offer at my new address
but I will not give them my money.

surveys

The Dossier to London is complete and ready to go, but the letter needs a few signatures. ! My own is not now enough. The letter has escalated and now includes demands that ESATBT not only get their act together, and Audit and Investigate the whole company, but that they recompense all those who have suffered at their hands in the past couple of years. That they investigate the 'soft' d/debit scandal in depth, and go through their customer base to see who has suffered from their bad treatment and recompense them as well. Plus a few other things like an admission to the Media. !
However just carrying my signature is not now enough and will be miscontrued as a 'fraud' on my part just to add weight to my own arguments.
If obtaining signatures is too difficult, then a private message stating 'add my name to the letter' and showing a full and correct name can be sent to me. I will then print these 'add my name's and attach to the letter.
Thanks to all. !

surveys

Naturally anyone who wants to see the list of "requirements" and the "consequences of failure to implement requirements" are very welcome. Please let me know and I will send privately to anyone who wants. At the moment the only other 'signature' is from 'Sapele'. Plus of course the web pages from Adam which counts as a signature.

dahamsta

PM sent.

surveys

I have today made a claim with the Small Claims court for my latest D/Debit fiasco with ESATBT. The dossier also went to London today. I will post a message back here, and on other Threads if and when I receive any response.

parsi

I feel like a member of a club. I got my first broadband/calls bill from BT this morning and they have charged me for the conenciton fee even though it's supposed to be free if you're transferring.. sheesh..now it all begins..

surveys

Another customer joins the BT 'merrygoround'. Unfortunately your in for a very frustrating time. Trying to get your money back is like the proverbial 'getting blood from a stone'. :mad: I wish you luck. you will need it.

the gobbler

well..i'm finally off the BT merrygoround...after 7 months of sheer torture in calling them...3 bills from bt when i am with eircom...2 months of red tape trying to get a refund...i have finally got it and my account deleted with them,,it is so hard to get money back off them,,every time i called back to inquire bout the status,,i was given a different fob off..no auth...system error...no refund logged up!!...the list goes on..consumer affairs/comreg contacted..absolutely useless both of them.
Thats it for me for BT...never again...i have put 26 people off from signing with them and will continue to do so,i deal with alot of companies day2day but never have i seen such incompetence...don't give up the good fight!!!

jor el

parsi wrote:

I feel like a member of a club. I got my first broadband/calls bill from BT this morning and they have charged me for the conenciton fee even though it's supposed to be free if you're transferring.. sheesh..now it all begins..

If you've just seen the bill, and it hasn't been paid yet, then contact the bank now and stop the direct debit before they take the money. Then contact BT and tell them you've stopped the payment but will pay manually (by bank giro, billpay, etc) for the correct amount. This ensures that you don't have to go hunting for the money later.

They have issued you with an incorrect bill and you don't have to pay it. You do have to pay what you owe them obviously, but they have no right to overcharge you and expect you to pay with the promise of a refund later.

I got overcharged on my first bill, I rang and they said it would be discounted on the next bill and it was actually corrected on the 2nd bill. I seem to be one of the lucky few though, so if you don't want to chance it then do as I've said above. Far better to have them chase you for money than the other way round I think.

magick

i fully support this orginally i signed up to their special rate offer of 1mb and 12 gig cap , but then i was "automatically" moved to bt dsl option 2 which ment i had to pay 30 a month which i didnt mind because i would get a 2 mb line , only thing is they were happy to give me the bill but not the 2mb!
and im still waiting for it after 2mths!

jor el

When you signed up to the special offer 1M, you got an introductory price, for a few months. The normal full price of the 1M product was always €30, so when the offer ended you would have to pay €30 for it. At the same time though, the 1M product changed to 2M, but you were still on the same option, not a new one. A totally new product, at 1M, was also introduced. Anyone on 1M now got an increase to 2M, anyone on the 2M got an increase to 3M.

The problem for you lies in that you're not getting the new speeds yet. This could be a problem with your line and it may not be capable of supporting 2M. In this case, BT should have contacted you and downgraded you to the new cheaper 1M product for free.

Check your modem stats to see what speed it reports to be syncing at. If it says 2M, then the line is capable. The low speeds could be a result of contention, or laziness somewhere on BT's side. If the modem does report 1M, then it would appear that you are being over charged.

emmagean

i was about to sign up for BT Line rental and BB but after readin this thread and others I certainly wont be now. There is nothing worse than handing your bank details to someone and giving them 'authority' to take out as much money as often as they like. Once they take it it's almost impossible to get it back.

That said though if anyone is being overcharged illegally by BT or anyone else and they are refusing to accept liability you should take your case to the Small Claims Court. I think the fee is something like €9. If and when they lose the case it usually always gets picked up by the print media. If everyone experiencing these problems takes individual cases then surely it's got to make a difference and get a ton of bad publicity for them?

dahamsta

Small Claims cases like this - i.e. obvious slam dunks - are rarely contested. It's cheaper to keep the lawyers at home unless marketing have a reason for the company to be seen to be defending itself.

[EDIT: I've been meaning to note in this thread that I decided not to "sign" this dossier, because of the way it was handled, and because I don't know the OP. I respect the right to anonymity like, I just didn't feel comfortable being a co-signatory to something in this way.]