Accountants Pay Review - Help?

kluivert

I have my appraisal/pay review tomorrow.

Can any accountants shoot a ball park figure for me to work on please.

ACCA 1.5 yrs work experience in practice doing everything - Auditing, Accounts, IT VAT PAYE CT RCT.

I passed my ACCA finals at the christmas sitting and first time as well.

I work for a very good firm in Louth and I dont really want to have to leave.

But i have to earn a living as well.

Currently on 13.5k pa.

pinks

13.5k is that for part-time work

kluivert

pinks wrote:

13.5k is that for part-time work

This is for full time - Started off at 12.5k in 2004 - graduate trainee wage.
I know of other trainees who started on 9.5k a year.

So is there any accountants here that can give me a ball park figure.

Kinetic^

I had a quick look at the salary survey on www.brightwater.ie and tbh it doesn't really cover anybody with your experience. I'd say probably about 25k but its only a guess so I don't know.

kluivert

Cheers Keyser Soze

I had a look at it myself.

Trainee Accountants not in Dublin 17-25k per annum
Part Qualified Accountants not in Dublin 32-38k per annum.

I am going to go for 25k anyway. I have a feeling that I am not going to be offered anything near that. If not is there any vacancies for me out there

Sposs

I though you said you passed your finals? So your a qualified accountant.

I know people who has passed the ACCA and gone straight to 35k and more , your job is taking the piss i gurantee you they have been charging their clients qualified accountant rates since you passed at xmas yet still paying you barely enough to live on.

Shop around and talk to some receruitment agencies to see what's out there.

Kinetic^

kluivert wrote:

Cheers Keyser Soze

I had a look at it myself.

Trainee Accountants not in Dublin 17-25k per annum
Part Qualified Accountants not in Dublin 32-38k per annum.

I am going to go for 25k anyway. I have a feeling that I am not going to be offered anything near that. If not is there any vacancies for me out there

Yeah man, I know its hard to leave a place when you really like and the pay is crap, had to do the same thing a few years back (I took an even further pay cut ) but you've got to do what's best for you and your career.

As you said, you've got to be able to live and have a few pints

Weigh up the options, have you still alot to learn where you are with the clients that they've got and can they pay you what they want or at least pay you something that will keep you content for a while longer.

There is no shortage of work for qualified accountants out there so don't feel obliged to stay either because they've paid for this and that as I've seen that happen and it really is sad

Kinetic^

Sposs wrote:

your job is taking the piss i gurantee you they have been charging their clients qualified accountant rates since you passed at xmas yet still paying you barely enough to live on.

Man this is industry standard operations unfortunately.

I get charged out at €45 (should be about €65 but hasn't been reviewed due to unforseen circumstances in here) and I get paid about €12 an hour, don't get paid for overtime either.

The fact of the matter is Kluivert has only been working for 18 months apporx and he doesn't officially qualify till he's got his 3 years work experience so they're going to hold that against them.

Carb

When I was at that level of experience, I had to move jobs to get 17.5K. Admittedly that was 3 years ago, but it was also in Dublin. €17.5K to €19K would seem more relaistic, if not optimistic based on what you're on now.

Are you with KMR by any chance?

kluivert

Carb wrote:

When I was at that level of experience, I had to move jobs to get 17.5K. Admittedly that was 3 years ago, but it was also in Dublin. €17.5K to €19K would seem more relaistic, if not optimistic based on what you're on now.

Are you with KMR by any chance?

No i work in Ardee, a mate of mind works in KMR he just got his exams as well. I hear the money is not great in there either but that they have a good training programme for trainee.

Carb - you dont know if they have any vacancies by any chance.

Carb

kluivert wrote:

No i work in Ardee, a mate of mind works in KMR he just got his exams as well. I hear the money is not great in there either but that they have a good training programme for trainee.

Carb - you dont know if they have any vacancies by any chance.

I worked briefly in the Carrick office when I started out, but getting to Dublin for courses etc just wasn't working, so I ended up moving to Dublin.

I haven't heard of any vacancies. They do seem to advertise a couple of times every year though so watch the local paper. You could just send your CV in, but I'd suspect that most partners in Monaghan/Carrick/Dundalk/Ardee all know each other, so it may be a bit risky.

I think there's a fairly large practice in Monaghan town also. There's probably also a couple of agencies in the Dundalk area, and they may know of other practices in Dundalk/Drogheda etc. I used to drive to Swords (just over an hour from C'Blayney) but this wouldn't be everyone's cup of tea.

Kinetic^

Did you get sorted Kluivert?

kluivert

It was cancelled and god knows when it will take place. But ill keep you posted when I do ok.

Kinetic^

kluivert wrote:

It was cancelled and god knows when it will take place. But ill keep you posted when I do ok.

Typical accountants :rolleyes:

Dundhoone

So much for the professional wage. The lack of any sort of unionisation for so called "professionals" has led to some serious exploitation, and 13.5k for a college grad is a disgrace. A junior secretary I know with a leaving cert is earning ten grand more than you.

I hope that you are a good enough accountant to make that cash stretch, and that you'll have a decent salary to look forward to in a couple of years.

rainbow kirby

13.5k? Sweet jebus, is that not below minimum wage? I know that if I worked full time for GAME, I'd be on just under 18k...

MartMax

Sposs wrote:

I though you said you passed your finals? So your a qualified accountant.

sorry, did i understand this wrong? i think if u completed ACCA exams but not hvg "3 yrs qualified experience" u r so called an affiliate and a part-qualified accountant.

i've myself all of those, just don't hv the time do the paperworks (forms, training records, etc). u all accountants know wat it is like around this time every year.

kluivert, there is a salary survey done by the girls in ACCA Dublin which I think it is more relevant to us :

http://ireland.accaglobal.com/pdfs/international/ireland/sal_guide_05.pdf

Dundhoone wrote:

So much for the professional wage. The lack of any sort of unionisation for so called "professionals" has led to some serious exploitation, and 13.5k for a college grad is a disgrace. A junior secretary I know with a leaving cert is earning ten grand more than you.

This is one nature of the industry, we accountants get paid less when we are trainees, so that once qualified, we are entitled to rip off the rest of you. Joking.

Mart

Cork

This is one nature of the industry, we accountants get paid less when we are trainees,

Outside Dublin - Qualified Accountants can be badly paid with crazy hours.

In my openion - accountacy practices have not moved on since the time of Dickens.

petes

rainbow kirby wrote:

13.5k? Sweet jebus, is that not below minimum wage? I know that if I worked full time for GAME, I'd be on just under 18k...

Minimum wage doesn't apply. If you are a trainee they can pay you what they like even if it is under minimum wage. Sucks!!

patsyh

friends younger brother in a similar position and they're on 23k, medium sized firm outside Dublin

kluivert

Still no review - cancelled till further notice.

As said minimum wage doesnt cover "trainee" accountants.

I also work for Boylesports in their Head Office in Dundalk at the weekends. So i have enough to live on but I am bloody knackered from working seven days a week.

Before anyone says it, yes its legal to work over 56 hours a week, but money puts food on the table.

Thanks for that salary review i was looking for it on the ACCA Global site.

Kinetic^

Hey Kluivert, TBH I think you should start looking for a job m8. I mean if they can't be arsed to make an effort to try and keep you on then why should you want to stay. I understand that you like the place but it may be the time to move on.

Do your firm know that you work weekends?

I'd send out a few CV's to a couple of agencies just to see what they say to you.

strong1

Has anyone done the below course in DIT and if so did they find it helpful, a friend of mine is in 2 minds about doing that of trying to go in as a trainee in a company..

any advice?

strong1

http://www.dit.ie/DIT/study/graduate/courses/dt510.html#top

kluivert

Better off to get a degree rather than just enter into a practice. Experience is brillant but there is a wealth of knowledge to be obtained from studying at college, alot of things that a practice will never teach you.

And plus the money would be really crap it your friend went straight into practice

MartMax

bump

kluivert... any updates? i'm eager to know what da story wt yer... as i'll be hvg mine soon!

mart

kluivert

Well nothing has happened since it was cancelled till further notice which in my opinion is very unprofessional.

I will keep you undated on any developments but there is not even a word on the grapevine when it is going to be held.

I could really do with some more money coming in at the moment to be honest.

Kinetic^

Just say "I was wondering if a new date has been set for my review".

It's not as if you've just passed 1.1 - 1.3 man, you've done your finals and you deserve to be given some respect as a qualfied accountant.

Did you send any CV's out??

leon8v

If you were to leave practice and move to industry you would expect anywhere between 23k-30k.
13.5k is scandalous for a full time person who has passed their exams.

kluivert

Not fully qualified yet, another 18 months work experience to do am afraid, I'll get the boss at lunch time ask him what the story is.

Industry would pay more indeed. Not as many jobs in industry as there is in practice tho.

My CV is on my busted PC, have to get it fixed.

Anyone wishing to enter into the accounting profession, be aware of the crap wages at the start of your career.

leon8v

kluivert wrote:

Not fully qualified yet, another 18 months work experience to do am afraid, I'll get the boss at lunch time ask him what the story is.

Industry would pay more indeed. Not as many jobs in industry as there is in practice tho.

My CV is on my busted PC, have to get it fixed.

Anyone wishing to enter into the accounting profession, be aware of the crap wages at the start of your career.

It doesnt matter that you are not qualified yet. I started in a big 4 practice as a first year ACA auditor with nothing but a degree and was earning more than that and that was about 6 years ago.
There are plenty of jobs in industry if you look around. I moved to industry over a year ago and have never looked back.
The starting salaries arent that bad now thats why I think you are being seriously underpaid.

karangka

Kluivert,

I got my salary reviewed about 8 months ago. They gave me 16.5K from 13.5K. Then, 3 months after that, I got an offer from another practice offering me 25K. Told the partner and handed my resignation at the same time. To my suprise asked me to reconsider. They offered me 23K with 1K loyalty bonus and performance related bonus. I took their offer and never been happier since.

I'm the same position as you. Affiliate. Finished the exams but need another 18 months to qualify.

My advice is just try to send a few CVs. Go to interviews. It'll put you in great bargaining position.

MartMax

Ouch.. it's nearly two months now... any updates folks?

Finally myself got admitted to ACCA membership now. wohoo!

Happy days.

Mart

chump

How much do you expect to be on in 18 months?
I'm starting on 20+k later this year. ACA, will have to do Prof 3 and finals. Dublin city centre...
Then apparently big bucks, 55k when qualified! 3+ years tho. Hard long slog until then...

Kinetic^

chump wrote:

How much do you expect to be on in 18 months?
I'm starting on 20+k later this year. ACA, will have to do Prof 3 and finals. Dublin city centre...
Then apparently big bucks, 55k when qualified! 3+ years tho. Hard long slog until then...

I'm doing Prof 3 this year man, can't bloody well wait :rolleyes: I'm almost 2 years into my contract and I'll only have another 2 to go Still though can;t wait for the funds to start rolling in, although it will be 2008 before it happens

Devious

OK folks, word of advice to those working in smaller practices (speaking from experience here, believe me). The most important factor, as far as an employer is concerned, is not whether you're qualified, how many degrees you have, how much time left until you reach 3 years experience blah blah etc etc, its how valuable you are to the business. How is this measured? Simple. Its based on the level of fee income you generate over a period of time, usually over the course of a year. Remember, accountants are businessmen and like any other business, the aim is to make money. In smaller practices, an employer would expect a reasonably competent staff member to generate fees to the value of roughly 2.5 to 3 times their salary over the year. So, once you know how much fee income you're generating, you will have a decent idea of what you should be getting paid. Keep track of what fees you're getting out and you will have the upper hand in any salary negotiations. Anyway, the market for accountancy staff in Ireland has never been better so don't be afraid to move on.

Kinetic^

Well in the practice I work, when the trainees(if they're on the same level in college) get a raise it's always the same. My practice is terrible for wages for qualified people and that's why they always leave once their contract finishes. On a usual year we'd probably bring in about 5-6 times our salary. As you progress the fees charged out are more as the jobs get bigger but your wages don't reflect this and that's why people leave, getting ripped from the off is no way to try and keep staff(if they want to keep them that is). Don't get me wrong, from the partners point's of view it's a cheap way of getting things done and it's how it's been run for years and it works, just keeps morale like **** in the office though. If it was me in their position I'd do the same thing, no doubt about it. If qualified people were kept on in my place there'd be half the staff as there'd be no trainees needed. There's going to be a mass exodus next spring, probably about 8-10 people leaving, not sure how it's going to be dealt with (pushing me up to senior at that stage, god help us:p) but I'd imagine it'll be just work thrown at everyone left and told "Do it".Another contributing factor is that overtime is expected of us but no overtime is paid.

I'm making it out to be a **** place to work but it has it's ups & downs.They give study leave in line with the Big 4 which is great as it's needed. Another good thing is that all the staff are young, as I worked in an office when I was 20 and the rest were 30 plus, I was jabbering on about sessions at the weekend and they're talking about getting married - go figure, it was so boring. Most of them that come in are sound and TBH, not this stereotypical nerd with glasses and a calculator (that image will have to go soon).

Oh last thing, I'm going to move on, once my blasted contract is up!!!! Until then I can't do a damn thing but go in with a smile and plod through the work - I'm due for release on 11th July 2008, pray for me!!!!

Devious

Keyser Soze 5 wrote:

Oh last thing, I'm going to move on, once my blasted contract is up!!!! Until then I can't do a damn thing but go in with a smile and plod through the work - I'm due for release on 11th July 2008, pray for me!!!!

Just one thing to note, you do realise that contract aint worth the paper its printed on? It's really just a gentlemans agreement which is all any practice can expect considering the lack of a union, sub-minimum wages etc. If you want to move, just do it; you dont owe that firm anything, especially given the level of fees you say you're getting out.

chump

If you take up a training contract with a company, doing ACA, and say you stay for 2 years until you've passed exams but not yet chartered...
if you were to leave then would you have to spend another 3 years with a different company or can you finish what's left of your training with the other company (ie. in this case 1 year)?

Kinetic^

Man if I leave and try get another job elsewhere I'd get laughed at. I'd never qualify fully as a chartered accountant and if I did geta job elsewhere they'd probably make me start my contract again - so the contract is a big part of ACA so I don't think you should be advising people to just up and leave when it could be career ending.

chump

I'm not advising anything, I'm asking a question

Kinetic^

chump wrote:

I'm not advising anything, I'm asking a question

Sorry I was talking to devious. I wouldn't advise what you're asking chump, you could find it very hard to get a job after cutting your contract short.

Devious

Keyser Soze 5 wrote:

Man if I leave and try get another job elsewhere I'd get laughed at. I'd never qualify fully as a chartered accountant and if I did geta job elsewhere they'd probably make me start my contract again - so the contract is a big part of ACA so I don't think you should be advising people to just up and leave when it could be career ending.

Apologies, I didnt fully read your post I thought you were ACCA. Yes, unfortunately the 3 year contract is more integral with the ACA. With any of the other accountancy bodies though (ACCA, CPA) there is no contracrtual requirements.

Just out of curiosity, what made you choose ACA over the others?

Kinetic^

Devious wrote:

Just out of curiosity, what made you choose ACA over the others?

More money in ACA over here.

chump

Keyser Soze 5 wrote:

Sorry I was talking to devious. I wouldn't advise what you're asking chump, you could find it very hard to get a job after cutting your contract short.

I'm just wondering are you able to do it?
Is it allowd?
I'm only starting a 3yr contract next year, ACA, and have no intention of bailing after a set time, but I'm just wondering what the restrictions are...

Devious

Keyser Soze 5 wrote:

More money in ACA over here.

Maybe in the past but not any more. Certainly not at trainee level; all are treated equally poorly pay-wise when it comes to starting out. At the end of the day a qualified accountant is a qualified accountant, which accountancy body you belong to is now largely meaningless.

Kinetic^

Read my post to devious.

p~b

what would you be earning after being qualified for 10+ years, is it still as good being an accountant these days

Kinetic^

Devious wrote:

At the end of the day a qualified accountant is a qualified accountant

Unfortunately this is not true. CPA, to use your expression from earlier, is not worth the paper it's written on.

Granted ACCA & ACA are close together but ACA is still ahead. If you don't believe me you can ask the Top 20 firms in Ireland, I'm nearly sure that they're all ACA training firms.

Kinetic^

p~b wrote:

what would you be earning after being qualified for 10+ years, is it still as good being an accountant these days

I suspect after working 10 years as an accountant, a person would have progressed up the food chain and would expect about 100k.

It does depend on whether or not you work for a firm or directly for a company so that would just be a guess above.

p~b

thanks for the reply, i still dont know if i wanna go down the law or accountancy route.

how do you find the workload