capital punishment is wrong

ali-queenb

what do u tink?

philologos

If someone has murdered someone I think theres nothing wrong with execution however I think Europe is more civilised than the USA so I will say that capital punishment is wrong

Piste

I think this has nothnig to do with the Junior Cert.

philologos

yeah it has nowt to do with it

AngryBadger

I have no problem with capital punishment whatsoever. The legal system in this country is too lenient, and often doesn't work at all. Tougher punishment should, (in theory), act as a deterrant to serious crimes, and if it doesn't then at least some of the perpetrators will be off the streets permanently.

I'm not saying we shouldn't also try to rehabilitate criminals, or that we shouldn't try to disciver why certain people commit crimes, (ie.s in terms of social marginalistaion and so on), but there also eneds to be a very clear line drawn in the sand, a line people know not to step over.

Freelancer

AngryBadger wrote:

I have no problem with capital punishment whatsoever. The legal system in this country is too lenient, and often doesn't work at all. Tougher punishment should, (in theory), act as a deterrant to serious crimes,.

But it doesn't in pratice.

Look at the US, it is still possible in certain states to be recieve 10-15 sentences for cannabis possesion, and life inprisonment for cultivation yet cannabis is the largest cash crop in the US.

Not to mention the fact that the US has the largest prison population in the western world is one of the few countries that will impose death sentences on minors, and the mentally challenged, and yet its prison population is steadily rising

Or look at saudi arabia;

http://www.washtimes.com/world/20031...3922-7479r.htm

Anyone who suggests capital punishment or multilation is a deterent should read the above.

I'm tired of this "tougher punishment should in theory work" it doesn't, it appeased frothing at the mouth right wingers who have little interest or little understanding of the root causes of crime.

ali-queenb

well let me just say "the quality of mercy is not strained, it droppeth as the gentle rain from heaven,.... tis mightiest in the mightiest,... when mercy seasons justice" just think about that and here sure those quotes have sumthing to do with the junior cert and now for my very on quote you are killing someone too bso why shouldnt u then face the death penalty then...when death penalty is used it is a form of revenge...justice is dead when a person dies for it what happens if person is found guilty but is innocent?do not kill.ohh to the people who said iut not bout the j.c couldnt find other talks elsewhere and isint it best to talk about it with people your own age

Freelancer

ali-queenb wrote:

well let me just say "the quality of mercy is not strained, it droppeth as the gentle rain from heaven,.... tis mightiest in the mightiest,... when mercy seasons justice" just think about that and here sure those quotes have sumthing to do with the junior cert and now for my very on quote you are killing someone too bso why shouldnt u then face the death penalty then...when death penalty is used it is a form of revenge...justice is dead when a person dies for it what happens if person is found guilty but is innocent?do not kill.ohh to the people who said iut not bout the j.c couldnt find other talks elsewhere and isint it best to talk about it with people your own age

Just taking a punt here. You're quoting the second sentence here aren't you?

ali-queenb

Freelancer wrote:

Just taking a punt here. You're quoting the second sentence here aren't you?

huhh wot u on about

sturgo

ali-queenb wrote:

what do u tink?

it's great! everyone should doing it.

Capt'n Midnight

ali-queenb wrote:

what do u tink?

IMHO It's too lenient.
There is always the possibility of reincarnation.

Flippant but sill more relevant than your posts so far, as there is a possibility

OP - you are supposed to put some arguments forward instead of just stating something. See the Monty Python skit about the guy paying for an argument. The discussion about capital punishment has been going on for a very long time and still hasn't been resolved. A new insight would be nice, facts are good too, statistics, quotes, opinions backed up by reasons also good.

Oh and religious quotes on a HUMANITIES forum - great argument :rolleyes:

Freelancer

ali-queenb wrote:

huhh wot u on about

So taking honours english then?

I was remarking about how eloquent your quote is, in comparsion to the language and argument you're putting forward.

Tar.Aldarion

To quote the OP, eloquently, Capital punishment is wrong.

ali-queenb

Freelancer wrote:

So taking honours english then?

I was remarking about how eloquent your quote is, in comparsion to the language and argument you're putting forward.

i may b taking honours but i still dont no wot elequent means quote is from mercant of venice speaker portia though she as the death penalty is hypocrisy it self.em i just started this thread to tell people its wrong....cause it is ohh and sturgo and captn midnight get a life ur not funny

Capt'n Midnight

ali-queenb wrote:

what do u tink?

Verb 1. tink - make or emit a high sound; "tinkling bells"
chink, tinkle, clink

There are people on this site who've indicated, perhaps with hyperbole, that it would be a suitable punishment for text speak.

It's wrong when used as a political tool for re-election. It's wrong when the decision to use it is based in part on demographics. It's wrong when the number of miscarriges are relatively high. It's wrong to say it's cheaper than life imprisonment when the costs of legal battles generally outweigh the cost of life imprisonment.

So even without looking at the ethical considerations the use of capital punishment in the US for example can't be justified.

And we still haven't got to look at the deterent value of it, if any.

OT Then again we live in a country where you can get seven years for stealing a handbag and be out after a year for killing someone while drunk driving (same judge BTW. ) Where "life" means single digit prison terms. Prison doesn't seem to be a deterent for many drug gang members where the prospect of maybe doing time is so slight and short. At present for every gang related killing about one year is spent in prison. ( detection rate x average sentence ) The criminal assets bureau and higher conviction rate would probably do a better job of detering people.

ali-queenb

captn midnight it is wrong on every single thing full stop.... tell me what is wrong with text speak i want to know piste and someone else told me but they had stupid reasons

Capt'n Midnight

ali-queenb wrote:

captn midnight it is wrong on every single thing full stop....

ah you mean

It's RIGHT when used as a political tool for re-election.
It's RIGHT when the decision to use it is based in part on demographics.
It's RIGHTwhen the number of miscarriges are relatively high.
It's RIGHT to say it's cheaper than life imprisonment.

So even without looking at the ethical considerations the use of capital punishment in the US for example CAN be justified.

The_Minister

These are pedantic points, but they are relevent:

Freelancer wrote:

cannabis is the largest cash crop in the US..

US is an advanced country it does not rely on cash crops like other countries and thus has a great diversity. If you said this about Brazil it would be impressive.

Freelancer wrote:

Not to mention the fact that the US........is one of the few countries that will impose death sentences on minors, .

I believe the Supreme court found this illegal. Remember a few months ago when all the hardliners were complaining about this "liberal bleedin' hearts"

Freelancer wrote:

and the mentally challenged, .

The man who you are refering to was not mentally retarded when he died. His IQ had risen to over 70

ali-queenb

Capt'n Midnight wrote:

ah you mean

It's RIGHT when used as a political tool for re-election.
It's RIGHT when the decision to use it is based in part on demographics.
It's RIGHTwhen the number of miscarriges are relatively high.
It's RIGHT to say it's cheaper than life imprisonment.

So even without looking at the ethical considerations the use of capital punishment in the US for example CAN be justified.

no no and no you know what i mean.... capital punishment is NEVER justified didint you ever do the merchant of venice or to kill a mocking bird no....

Capt'n Midnight

ali-queenb wrote:

no no and no you know what i mean.... capital punishment is NEVER justified didint you ever do the merchant of venice or to kill a mocking bird no....

In this version he gets the pound of flesh http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0070791

Shakespere ( or however he spelt his name ) came from a era where capital punishment was rife. His plays are violent and most of the other characters use violence to solve problems, though in many cases there are repercussions. And what does that tell us about the use of capital punishment by repressive governments ?

Should we boycott Hollywood films because of their incessant use of vigilantism ?

TBH it's more or less a non-issue in Europe baring major changes in governments. Western governments haven't used much pressure to try to get places like China to abandon it. And the US will continue to do whatever it want's.

OT
The US exports a LOT of government subsidised corn. One of the problems with this is that corn syrup is everywhere. It's used a sweetener for junk food. Corn is not very nutritious as an example Kellogs & Co. fortify it with vitamins because they are legally obliged to do.
It's a big crop by any standard.

Freelancer

Firespinner wrote:

US is an advanced country it does not rely on cash crops like other countries and thus has a great diversity. If you said this about Brazil it would be impressive.

The US has a powerful farm lobby, The Corn industry is worth over $20 billion dollars a year, the cannabis industry is guessed at being worth $25 billion dollars a year. If you don't think that the fact that there is an illegal industry worth billion inside the US economy you need to get your head sorted.

I believe the Supreme court found this illegal. Remember a few months ago when all the hardliners were complaining about this "liberal bleedin' hearts"

link please.

The man who you are refering to was not mentally retarded when he died. His IQ had risen to over 70

Link please.

And what difference does it make when you prove it, he was still sentenced to death when his IQ was that of a minor.

These are pedantic points, but they are relevent:

And firespinner, no they are not. It is pointless pedantic and in what we've come to expect from you pointless attempts at point scoring.

How does any of your above points change the thrust of the argument, angry badger has claimed tougher sentences reduce crime, I've pointed out using three examples, the tough drug penalities in the US have not stopped cannabis growth from becoming a $25 billion dollar industry, in fact the US has the largest prison population in the world (outside of china), the liberal use of the death penalty has not abated the murder rate. Meanwhile Saudi Arabia which the ignorant cite as proof that being tough on criminals reduces crime rates, has seen an exponentaly increase in crime in recent times.

You can nitpick all you want about the specifics, but it doesn't change the facts.

ali-queenb

what are ye all on about corn for?.......captn midnight did you read merchant of venice?what did you think of portia.....was there a thread about this before

AngryBadger

Freelancer wrote:

But it doesn't in pratice.

Given that America has a population of nearly 300 million people i think it's fair to say they're going to have more crim that most countries, and a larger prison population.

Is it not equally fair to say that the crime situation could be considerably worse than it currently is if there was no capital punishment whatsoever?

Give me a workable alternative and I'll gladly listen.

Freelancer

AngryBadger wrote:

Given that America has a population of nearly 300 million people i think it's fair to say they're going to have more crim that most countries, and a larger prison population.

That statistic is for per capita, not just total population.

Prison populaton per 100.000 inhabitants:

USA 725 Russia 713 Great Britain and Northern Ireland 124 Canada 102 Germany 98 Italy 92 France 80 Sweden 64 Danmark 61 Iceland 29

However, US becon of freedom has more prisoners in its system, than China.


In absolute terms, the United States currently has the largest prison population in the world, with more than 2 million [1]. In 2002, both Russia and China (the latter with a population 4 times that of the USA) also had prison populations in excess of 1 million [2], [3].
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Imprisonment#Prison_population_statistics

As a percentage the only country that beats the US is Rwanda, and a significant amount of their population are charged with genocide.

Is it not equally fair to say that the crime situation could be considerably worse than it currently is if there was no capital punishment whatsoever?

No it's not, clearly because of the consistently rising prison population despite increasingly stiff prison terms and death sentences, stiffer penalties aren't reducing crime or decreasing prison populations. You cannot say it could it be worse, unless you offer some evidence to support it.

Give me a workable alternative and I'll gladly listen.

You're the one who claimed that

Tougher punishment should, (in theory), act as a deterrant to serious crimes,

I'm the one pointing out that your "theory" doesn't work in reality. Don't make an unworkable claim about what will fix the crime problem, and then demand I come up with an alternative. Also this topic has recently been discussed in Politics and I've offered a number of alternatives, check out the thread "sort out the criminal justice system" there.

AngryBadger

Freelancer wrote:

I'm the one pointing out that your "theory" doesn't work in reality. Don't make an unworkable claim about what will fix the crime problem, and then demand I come up with an alternative. Also this topic has recently been discussed in Politics and I've offered a number of alternatives, check out the thread "sort out the criminal justice system" there.

I'm not trawling for your postings, I'd be interested to hear your alternatives in the context of THIS thread, but I'm not going searching for them.

I'm not saying capital punishment "will fix the problem", in my first post i observed the absolute necessity of addressing the sources of crime, that said I have no problem with the death penalty being handed out for certain crimes, and I do believe part of the reason there is so much crime in ireland is because there is little to no faith in the judicial system. I have no problem with hearing alternatives, but as it stands that's my opinion.

Freelancer

AngryBadger wrote:

I'm not trawling for your postings, I'd be interested to hear your alternatives in the context of THIS thread, but I'm not going searching for them.

Fine in this thread capital punishment doesn't work, it doesn't fix criminal problems. We're talking specifically about capital punishment for crimes.

I'm not saying capital punishment "will fix the problem", in my first post i observed the absolute necessity of addressing the sources of crime,

No in your first post you said;

Tougher punishment should, (in theory), act as a deterrant to serious crimes,.

it doesn't. Period.

I'm not saying we shouldn't also try to rehabilitate criminals, or that we shouldn't try to disciver why certain people commit crimes, (ie.s in terms of social marginalistaion and so on), but there also eneds to be a very clear line drawn in the sand, a line people know not to step over.

And then you came in with some vague stuff about rehabiliation before descending in more Magnum force lingo.

that said I have no problem with the death penalty being handed out for certain crimes,

Did you know the judge in the original trial of the Birmingham six, regreted that they had not be charged with treason, because it meant he was unable to hand out the death penalty?

and I do believe part of the reason there is so much crime in ireland is because there is little to no faith in the judicial system.

I don't have alot of faith in the judicial system, which is why I'm not thrilled with giving it the power of life and death

I have no problem with hearing alternatives, but as it stands that's my opinion.

You've put forward a claim that harsher penalties work, I pointed out they don't, and given evidence to support why I think this way. You're now basically saying, "I'm right, but I'll listen to you put forward a case to argue aganist my position, but I won't lower myself to actualy defend my own position."

AngryBadger

Freelancer wrote:

"I'm right, but I'll listen to you put forward a case to argue aganist my position, but I won't lower myself to actualy defend my own position."

yes that's essentialy what I'm saying, but that's only when I'm talking to you.

If your' point is that the judicial system is flawed, and therefore cannot be depended upon to harbour something as huge as the power of life and death, fair enough, I agree with that, in principal. But we still need some form of deterrant, and your logic seems to be that "Crimes still happen, therefore capital punishment doesn't work", which makes no sense to me. Maybe I'm just obtuse, or maybe you should put more effort into clarifying your perspective, and less into taking pot shots at me because i disagree with you, (whatever you opinion happens to be).

Moreover, you're still not offering an alternative to deterring criminals, maybe capital punishment isn't going to eliminate all crime, but if there isn't an alternative then i have no problem with it deterring at least some crime.

Freelancer

AngryBadger wrote:

yes that's essentialy what I'm saying, but that's only when I'm talking to you.

If your' point is that the judicial system is flawed, and therefore cannot be depended upon to harbour something as huge as the power of life and death, fair enough, I agree with that, in principal.

So why are you for capital punishment then?

But we still need some form of deterrant, and your logic seems to be that

My point is.

Tougher punishment should, (in theory), act as a deterrant to serious crimes,.

Isn't true, it's the kind of limited right wing "prison works" mentality. You've offered nothing substantive to support your claim capital punishment or severe sentences will act as a deterrant. I am attacking that position.

"Crimes still happen, therefore capital punishment doesn't work", which makes no sense to me. Maybe I'm just obtuse, or maybe you should put more effort into clarifying your perspective,

Nope it's pretty simple, you've made a claim that harsh sentences deter crime, you've offered nothing substantive to support this assertion.

I on the other hand, pointed out that countries with the death penalty, and cited the US and Saudi Arabia, have massive prison population, and significant crime rates, so clearly severe sentences don't work, and you've been pussy footing around this.

Moreover, you're still not offering an alternative to deterring criminals, maybe capital punishment isn't going to eliminate all crime, but if there isn't an alternative then i have no problem with it deterring at least some crime.

But you've not offered any evidence that capital punishment will deter crime.

The thread is about capital punishment not what alternatives we have to it. We have an alternative. I disagree with capital punishment and have offered plenty of facts to support why I think it doesn't work.

You on the other hand haven't offered a reason why you think it will lower cirme, and instead of putting your case forward as to why it will, demand I build a case for an alternatives.

Capital Punishment doesn't work, it doesn't deter crime.

Before we go any forward why don't you try and put together an argument as to why you think it will.

AngryBadger

Freelancer wrote:

Before we go any forward why don't you try and put together an argument as to why you think it will.

Why don't you offer me some plausible alternative, or solid proof that if we removed capital punishment the world over crime levels wouldn't go up.

Freelancer

AngryBadger wrote:

Why don't you offer me some plausible alternative, or solid proof that if we removed capital punishment the world over crime levels wouldn't go up.

How on earth can offer proof of that?

What I can do cite the US a western country with capital punishment and high crime and murder rate.

You've offered no evidence that harsher sentences are a deterent for criminals.

I've offered plenty of evidence that harsher sentences aren't a deterent for criminals.

Instead of demanding I leap through ever more implausible and absurd hoops, how about you make a case, citing evidence, that capital punishment is a deterent.

Dudess

If you can get your hands on a documentary called Fourteen Days in May, you'll be given a good insight into just how horrible this system is. It's about Edward Earl Johnson, a young black man who was executed in 1987. He was sentenced to death at the age of 18 and languished on Death Row for the next eight years. The crimes he was convicted of were horrific - the murder of a policeman and the rape of a 60-year-old woman. However, he maintains he did not commit these crimes and that a confession was extracted from him by force. It is one of the most distressing and heartbreaking programmes I have ever seen and is so powerful I really think those in favour of the death penalty might reconsider if they were to see it. Do a Google search. There's lots of stuff on it.