Do any knackers go to Trinity?

Blub2k4

Ok so bear with me, this is not just a simple troll, there is a story with it.
I was sitting in my living room last night and hear shouting outside the door again, I live in an apartment complex style thing and we share a porch.
Anyway the buzz is that the students upstairs are being noisy again, the walls here are paper thin.
I earwigged at the door, like I really had any choice with their next door neighbour tearing strips off them for their repeated lack of consideration (again), these guys are really noisy, the straw that broke the camels back was when they decided to amp the place up and they do band practice there now, I hear it every time the guitar gets plugged in down here in my apartment.

Ok so the crux is, I almost pissed myself on hearing the argument on the side of the student.
The woman shouts at him calling him a knacker, and his reply, is "I'm not a knacker, I'm a med student in Trinity, my mums a lawyer....."
Her reply by the way was that she's a med too, it seems she isn't sleeping much and I suspect is on internship.

So my question is, does the knacker inhabit a certain demographic or do people define themselves as knackers through their actions?

Discuss.

Ag marbh

Sounds like toffee nose behaviour to me. "Im from this area and my daddy owns a boat so i'm above you".

A scumbag is defined by actions regardless of what area you live in or what clothing you wear. People who define a scumbag as someone from a certain area or by the clothing that they wear are very ignorant.

mayotom

The place is crawling with Knackers

Hitchhiker's Guide to...

think by the very fact that you used the word 'knacker' you are a troll

Blub2k4

Roundtower2 wrote:

think by the very fact that you used the word 'knacker' you are a troll

it was relevant to the conversation and it happened.......I dont get your point, should I have changed the term used to describe them, surely that would make no sense?

tabatha

i think idiot is a better word. there are a lot of those around!

ApeXaviour

Blub2k4 wrote:

it was relevant to the conversation and it happened.......I dont get your point, should I have changed the term used to describe them, surely that would make no sense?

"Them"? I don't see what loud neighbours have to do with members of the travelling community.

Should a traveller decide to do the leaving cert, do relatively well in it and get into trinity; that's their right as an irish citizen.

Crash

I dont think the original use here was meant to imply travellers Dec - just the fact that the word knacker has become a synonym of scumbag over the years, completely seperate of the travelling community.

FreeAnd..

I agree with you on the whole "knacker" thing. Knacker is a term that I have always used to describe a scum bag and not a traveller. That is definitely the more general meaning for it these days but it does lead to confusion as some people associate it with travellers and others dont. To answer the OP, Yes Knackers do go to Trinity. Unfortunately they have integrated every aspect of modern society.

Blub2k4

ApeXaviour wrote:

"Them"? I don't see what loud neighbours have to do with members of the travelling community.

Should a traveller decide to do the leaving cert, do relatively well in it and get into trinity; that's their right as an irish citizen.

sorry, you misunderstand, my bad, it has nothing to do with travellers, knackers in the sense of scumbags is the meaning, it wasn't my choice of terms in the first place, I was relaying an incident. I'm a little above referring to members of the travelling community as knackers.....cheers.

ApeXaviour

crash_000 wrote:

I dont think the original use here was meant to imply travellers Dec - just the fact that the word knacker has become a synonym of scumbag over the years, completely seperate of the travelling community.

Hmm.. seems to have caught me unawares then. As far as I was concerned it was exclusively a derogatory term for travellers. Still seems to be in the circles I'd keep company. Must be a poshy synonym then

FreeAnd..

I think its just different parts of the country use the term differently. It has caused confusion between me and friends in the past where they thought I was speaking about travellers but I was on about a completely different type of person. I think a knacker is someone who will do things that most other people wont do i.e. steal, rob, cheat, lie and often on a regular basis not just once off. Knackers generally go through life with a general knacker attitude. What is worse is when a knacker is proud to be a knacker. There are plenty of them around too.

I think the term knacker is just used now to refer to these people who do things that most ordinary people wont do whether they come from D4 or Tallaght doesnt matter and that is probably where the link to the term knacker as used to describe travellers comes in. The way i see it a Traveller is a traveller and a knacker is just a f**kin knacker...No problem whatsoever with travellers but Knackers, thats another story altogether...

wheresthebeef

Knacker is also used as an adjective. You can say that actions are knacker, or that something tastes knacker.

"Sprouts taste knacker"
"Eating sprouts is knacker"

Yeah ok, i don't like sprouts.

Blub2k4

ok I have an idea, let's no one read any of the posts and just scan through and pick up on a term and make a PC point about it that is not relevant if you hadn't just scanned the thread and engaged the fingers before the brain.....on second thoughts....

Hitchhiker's Guide to...

"knacker" is actually a term that is considered racist if it is directed at a member of the travellor community. Think this is a legal thing, although maybe some of our more lawyerly members will confirm or deny this.

I.e. you call a member of the travelling community a 'knacker' and you can be done for racism.

Regarding the question about members of the travelling community being in Trinity - why the f**k does this matter to you? i'm sure there are members of many different sub-communities in Trinity etc ... get a life ...

In regard to your final question - its got nothing to do with this board...

segadreamcast

Roundtower2 wrote:

Regarding the question about members of the travelling community being in Trinity - why the f**k does this matter to you? i'm sure there are members of many different sub-communities in Trinity etc ... get a life ...

In regard to your final question - its got nothing to do with this board...

Wasn't his question at all. He never even mentioned the travelling community. It was a flippant use of the word "knacker", as he already said. Maybe read the thread?

Boston

Roundtower2 wrote:

"knacker" is actually a term that is considered racist if it is directed at a member of the travellor community. Think this is a legal thing, although maybe some of our more lawyerly members will confirm or deny this.

Isn't that what you've done here, by persuming he was taking about travelliers?

I.e. you call a member of the travelling community a 'knacker' and you can be done for racism.

Done how? Racism isn't a crime,

Regarding the question about members of the travelling community being in Trinity - why the f**k does this matter to you? i'm sure there are members of many different sub-communities in Trinity etc ... get a life ...

Read the questions, Knacker does not equate to Travellier, they are not on and the same thing.

His whole question was, does knacker = travellier, or is a knacker anybody who acts in a certain asswholely manner. I'd have to say that it's anybody who acts in a certain asswholely manner, and trinity students are well capable of being knackers.

spacecoyote

this thread is hilarious, it's obviously got nothing to do with the travelling community. I'm from tallaght and the term knacker has always been used as a synonym for scum as well as a derogatory term to describe travellers. but as usual, people are always keen to jump on the "save the travellers" bandwagon. the same people who are up in arms if theres the merest suggestion that some travellers might show up in their area. but this is off-topic. I am a trinners graduate, from tallaght, as mentioned before! in my opinion there are no real scumbags/knackers in trinity. there are people from underpriviliged areas on the T.A.P. and there are plenty of people from areas which may have a lot of scumbags in them, but the simple matter of fact is they are not knackers. knackers have no interest in education really, they are too busy out being scumbags. the only scumbags in trinity are the ones the security ignore that wander through the grounds looking for bikes to steal (embittered victim myself :mad: :mad: ) Just because you hear someone with a heavy "dub" accent or Limerick accent or wherever does not mean you're dealing with a knacker. its just snobbery to make such assumptions about people

Boston

Theres plenty of knackers in trinity, they tend not to pass to many years however.

Hitchhiker's Guide to...

read his thread? maybe someone would like to read what i actually said, rather than their own interpretation of what i said.

I said that the actual term knacker is offensive in itself. The word knacker has always been used to describe the travelling community. First descriptively, then insulting. This was highlighted in the Pavee Report back in 2001.

The reason it is an offensive term is because you are equating calling someone a knacker with insulting them.

I still don't see the point of the thread title "do knackers live in Trinity?" And, i'm not the only one who hasn't tried to answer the opening piece.

ISAW

Roundtower2 wrote:

read his thread? maybe someone would like to read what i actually said, rather than their own interpretation of what i said.

I said that the actual term knacker is offensive in itself. The word knacker has always been used to describe the travelling community. First descriptively, then insulting. This was highlighted in the Pavee Report back in 2001.

The reason it is an offensive term is because you are equating calling someone a knacker with insulting them.

I still don't see the point of the thread title "do knackers live in Trinity?" And, i'm not the only one who hasn't tried to answer the opening piece.

First the OP should be aware of the quote/use distinction. Hedid refer to the term "knacker" in a quote but he subsequently used the term in the same post when he asked the question.

Second the term "knacker" is not necessarily offensive. There was an Orla something or other who ran for a European MEP Seat I think for the Labour Party. AFAIK the family were knackers. They owened a knackers year somewhere up near Gunissess. The Dublin skin and hide company were up around there. That was no doubt run by knackers also. The term predates the derogatory use in reference to the travelling community. Much of the travelling community nowadays neither travel or live in a community. Many of them were involved in the knacker trade. Knackering being such a dirty smelly business this is no doubt the reason people attributed the term as an insult.

These terms arte quite curious. suppose your student was black and the annoyed person next door to you called him a "******" would you ask the same question as you did about "knackers" in Trinity? Suppose the student upstairs was female and was called a "lezzer" or if the guy was called a "fairy" or a "homo". Would you then ask the question? Take something no t vcovered in the law. Suppose he happens to wear womens clothes in the band he plays with. Would you ask about him being called a "tranny"?

Now put it another way. suppose a black guy lived upstairs and another next door. Could they use any of these terms freely? What if you were the student upstairs and you were in London and the person downstairs called you a "thick Paddy"? Would that be wrong? what if the person downstairs was also Irish? Would it be wrong then?

Finally as regards yer mans response. He seems to have an identity problem. It seems he defines himself more by the music he listens to the noise he makes and who his parents are then having his own self worth. I'd probably call him a "Student" but I dont like using terms like that.

ISAW

ISAW wrote:

These terms arte quite curious. suppose your student was black and the annoyed person next door to you called him a "******"

I note the parser actually censored my comment! let us say the ****** word rymes with snigger.

Chardee MacDennis

i interpreted the question as "are there any scumgabs in Trinity?" i hope i am right... but my answer is probably but i cant say i have ever meet any.

also i would associate the word knacker with scumbag and not with the travelling community, although i can understand the link.

Boston

ISAW wrote:

First the OP should be aware of the quote/use distinction. Hedid refer to the term "knacker" in a quote but he subsequently used the term in the same post when he asked the question.


Second the term "knacker" is not necessarily offensive. There was an Orla something or other who ran for a European MEP Seat I think for the Labour Party. AFAIK the family were knackers. They owned a knackers year somewhere up near Gunissess. The Dublin skin and hide company were up around there. That was no doubt run by knackers also. The term predates the derogatory use in reference to the traveling community. Much of the traveling community nowadays neither travel or live in a community. Many of them were involved in the knacker trade. Knackering being such a dirty smelly business this is no doubt the reason people attributed the term as an insult.

Well it was being used in the negative context here.

These terms arte quite curious. suppose your student was black and the annoyed person next door to you called him a "******" would you ask the same question as you did about "knackers" in Trinity? Suppose the student upstairs was female and was called a "lezzer" or if the guy was called a "fairy" or a "homo". Would you then ask the question? Take something no t vcovered in the law. Suppose he happens to wear womens clothes in the band he plays with. Would you ask about him being called a "tranny"?

So in a sense it's like the O/P coming in here and asking do Bstards go to trinity, and people getting upset, because they thought he was having a go at children born out of wed lock. If he came in here and said ****/fags/kikes...ect(sp?), they are terms use nearly exclusively to describe groups of people, knacker is used to describe behavior of a group of people. To infer that knacker is the same as traveler, and vise versa, is the actual insult. I hear knacker, I think of half a doesn't lads I went to school with. Drinking in fields, getting in fights, stealing, vandalism. These are not words for me that lead immediately onto the travelers.

If the lad had said do Skangers go to trinity, not one person would have batted an eye lid, despite allot of people thinking Dublin inner city = Skanger.

I think it highlights peoples own prejudices, by what they will or won't object to. Roundtower2 read Knacker as traveling community, it says also about him/her/it.

Now put it another way. suppose a black guy lived upstairs and another next door. Could they use any of these terms freely? What if you were the student upstairs and you were in London and the person downstairs called you a "thick Paddy"? Would that be wrong? what if the person downstairs was also Irish? Would it be wrong then?

Of course it's wrong, it's a slur. Of course travilers will not like the word knacker, and when used against a traviler it is racial, but you have to accept that every time someone uses the word ******, they might not be racist, everytime someone uses the word Fag, they might not be homophobic, and everytime someone uses the word knacker they might not be talking about traviliers. Words have little meaning on their own, it's their context which holds the meaning.

FreeAnd..

Alot of people seem to be getting hot about the Knacker/Traveller thing when as the last poster said its all down to context. Calling a traveller a Knacker would more than likely be offensive and is stereotypical. The whole knacker term comes from doing things that other people in society will not do and thats why the term is more commonly used now in reference to scumbags who lie/cheat/steal whatever rather than to travellers who probably never rendered a horse in their lives. Its mad how some people automatically assume that when someone uses the term knacker they mean traveller, get over it move on. The title of the thread was not do any travellers go to Trinity? Thats a whole different topic altogether...

Blub2k4

Roundtower2 wrote:

read his thread? maybe someone would like to read what i actually said, rather than their own interpretation of what i said.

I said that the actual term knacker is offensive in itself. The word knacker has always been used to describe the travelling community. First descriptively, then insulting. This was highlighted in the Pavee Report back in 2001.

The reason it is an offensive term is because you are equating calling someone a knacker with insulting them.

I still don't see the point of the thread title "do knackers live in Trinity?" And, i'm not the only one who hasn't tried to answer the opening piece.

I really hope that you are studying for arts and not some profession where you are required to be lucid and observant, cos that would be scary.

Any of the people here assuming stuff about travellers dont know me, I take flak regularly on boards for the lengths I go to to defend travellers and their way of life, so much so in fact that it got me banned from After Hours for challenging Seamus blindness to traveller prejudice....in any case the original word choice was not mine, but I see now where the student upstairs got mixed up cos he thought she was referring to the travelling community or something and he lives in a house ( well he still does, let's see what todays post throws up in mammies mail box ) and not in a caravan.

I give up.

Hitchhiker's Guide to...

The word 'knacker' has always referred to travellers. The origin of the term is as someone who bought old horses and slaughtered them. This was almost exclusively members of the travelling community. And, it thus became used as a term to describe the travelling community.

How can you say that it has nothing to do with travellers, if that is what the word actually means?

Its a bit like saying: "do any retards go to Trinity?" And, then when people get offended, you say that you actually meant it in the sense of people who act stupid, not those with mental health issues.

At its best, it is a poor choice of word (by both you - in your opening question, and by the woman described in the OP).

I repeat what i said in a previous post - the only reason why the term knacker is an insulting term to describe people, is because you are equating them with travellers, which is meant to be insulting.

Let's look at precisely what the use of the term knacker in society means to those the term is most directed at:

from the National Cultural Committee on Racism and Interculturalism:

"In Ireland the use of the words 'Traveller' or 'Traveller Community' is how Travellers prefer to be called. However Travellers are referred to by other names, such as 'tinker', 'itinerant' or 'knacker'. The usage of these other terms is often derogatory and offensive. The term 'itinerant' was legitimised in the 1960's by its usage in government reports such as the Commission on Itinerancy and was associated with social problems like vagrancy. The word 'tinker' is derived from the tinsmith trade, which was a common Traveller trade, but not a trade that all Travellers engaged in. The word 'knacker' is the most offensive of these words in its usage and in the way it reinforces negative stereotyping of Traveller identity. All of these other terms and their usage have a direct impact on Traveller identity and deny Travellers the right to identify themselves."

Based on your responses, i accept that you didn't mean to be racist, but were just careless with your choice of words.

Hitchhiker's Guide to...

and this from the Equality Authority report on racism:

The Employment Equality Act 1998 also extends protection against harassment in employment to seven new grounds. Under section 32 of the Act, harassment based on any of these grounds constitutes discrimination, on the same terms as are applied to sexual harassment in section 23. Harassment is defined as “any act or conduct …including…. spoken words, gestures, or the production, display or circulation of written words, pictures or other material” which is unwelcome to the complainant, and could reasonably be regarded as offensive, humiliating or intimidating to them in relation to the relevant characteristic. The grounds are a person’s race (including nationality, colour, and ethnic or national origins) disability, age, sexual orientation, marital status, family status, religion (including belief or lack of belief) or membership of the Traveller community."


Specifically look at the following case:

"Maguire v North Eastern Health Board. The Maguire case concerned a member of the Traveller community who was employed by a public health authority. The key facts found by the Equality Officer were that the (male) complainant had attended the office Christmas party, where a (female) co-worker invited other members of staff back to her house for a further party afterwards, but added, in his hearing, “The knacker’s not coming”. (“Knacker” is a derogatory term which would be understood as referring particularly to members of the Traveller community.) The complainant reported this incident to his superviser the following day, indicating that he was distressed by the comment and asking her to take measures against comments of this sort being made to him at work in future. The superviser however stated that she did not feel obliged to take any action about a comment made outside the workplace and subsequently the complainant’s working hours were reduced. The Equality Officer held that the office Christmas party formed part of the worker’s employment, that the comment amounted to harassment under section 32, and that the employer’s failure to act appropriately to prevent recurrence made it vicariously liable for the harassment. She awarded compensation of €5,000 and ordered the employer to take specified measures to prevent future harassment."

... so the Equality Authority, and the National Committee on Racism, and Travellers themselves all think that the term knacker refers to travellers. I must be wrong...

Hitchhiker's Guide to...

or would you be offended if someone asked the question "Is George Bush a Dumb Paddy?"

And then explained that the term Dumb Paddy has come to mean someone who is stupid, and doesn't really refer to Irish people anymore...

Boston

Roundtower2 wrote:

The word 'knacker' has always referred to travellers. The origin of the term is as someone who bought old horses and slaughtered them. This was almost exclusively members of the travelling community. And, it thus became used as a term to describe the travelling community.

"Has always"? No it hasn't, as pointed out.

How can you say that it has nothing to do with travellers, if that is what the word actually means?

~Is someone claiming that, because i didn't read that.

Its a bit like saying: "do any retards go to Trinity?" And, then when people get offended, you say that you actually meant it in the sense of people who act stupid, not those with mental health issues.

No body said that people shouldn't be offended, but how many times is the term retard directed at people who actually are disabled? A minority of the time.

At its best, it is a poor choice of word (by both you - in your opening question, and by the woman described in the OP).

I repeat what i said in a previous post - the only reason why the term knacker is an insulting term to describe people, is because you are equating them with travellers, which is meant to be insulting.

You're wrong, It's insulting because you're equating them with peopel who **** all over their community. You see to be saying thats what travelliers are, how very backward of you.

Let's look at precisely what the use of the term knacker in society means to those the term is most directed at:

from the National Cultural Committee on Racism and Interculturalism:

Based on your responses, i accept that you didn't mean to be racist, but were just careless with your choice of words.

I think its pretty obvious what he ment, right from the start, for the non pc brigade anyway.

Hitchhiker's Guide to...

Roundtower2 wrote:

"In Ireland the use of the words 'Traveller' or 'Traveller Community' is how Travellers prefer to be called. However Travellers are referred to by other names, such as 'tinker', 'itinerant' or 'knacker'. The usage of these other terms is often derogatory and offensive. The term 'itinerant' was legitimised in the 1960's by its usage in government reports such as the Commission on Itinerancy and was associated with social problems like vagrancy. The word 'tinker' is derived from the tinsmith trade, which was a common Traveller trade, but not a trade that all Travellers engaged in. The word 'knacker' is the most offensive of these words in its usage and in the way it reinforces negative stereotyping of Traveller identity. All of these other terms and their usage have a direct impact on Traveller identity and deny Travellers the right to identify themselves."

you're choosing to ignore this. Also the equality case i pointed out. Ah, the power of selective quoting.

John

Roundtower2 wrote:

you're choosing to ignore this. Also the equality case i pointed out. Ah, the power of selective quoting.

But it's not the only meaning of the word. It's to do with context and the meaning attached by the user to the word. If Joe was looking for his cigarettes (I'm just using him as an example because he's a smoker) and said "Where are my fags?" would you call him homophobic? Or if someone was feeling stressed out and said "I think I'll go to a spa"? Are they prejudiced against those with neuronal diseases?

"Knacker" has split in meaning, it doesn't just refer to those who slaughter horses and travellers (the groups aren't one and the same) but also to those who act in a socially unacceptable way. As someone else has pointed out it's also being used as an adjective to describe things that are unpleasant. Is this because the word is associated with travellers? Maybe but I think the majority of people understand the concept of context and that just because you use a word it doesn't make the word have a particular meaning.

Hitchhiker's Guide to...

John2 wrote:

If Joe was looking for his cigarettes (I'm just using him as an example because he's a smoker) and said "Where are my fags?" would you call him homophobic? Or if someone was feeling stressed out and said "I think I'll go to a spa"? Are they prejudiced against those with neuronal diseases?

LOL - i do like the point you made here! And, it is well-made. Having said that, i don't think it describes this particular situation. I think the 'dumb Paddy' analogy i made earlier is more appropriate to this situation.

Boston

Roundtower2 wrote:

you're choosing to ignore this. Also the equality case i pointed out. Ah, the power of selective quoting.

It's irrelavent to the arguement. You seem to feel the need to point at that Knacker is used to describe travelers, no one disagreed with that point

Having said that, i don't think it describes this particular situation. I think the 'dumb Paddy' analogy i made earlier is more appropriate to this situation.

What about Paddy, Or "Yea drunken mess of a moron", Should irish people take offense? Dumb paddy = Stupid Irishman, I'm not a stupid irish man, in the same fashion i'm not a bastard or a spa. Just what is your point, that offensive phases are offensive.

John

There's a good example Liousville, the word bastard. It is used everyday by people to mean an unpleasant person. It is also historically a child born out of wedlock. I can see the difference and don't take offense to it as people aren't using it at me to question my lineage but as a completely different insult.

Blub2k4

Roundtower2 wrote:

Based on your responses, i accept that you didn't mean to be racist, but were just careless with your choice of words.

ffs you are consistent with your inability to read my posts, I was relaying an incident, the choice of words was never mine to start with.

I give up mark II

Crash

Closed. you know, i dont mind semantics, but when an argument becomes cyclical and just revolves around the same semantic points, it becomes REALLY off topic.