Laws in Ireland regarding hacking?

ntlbell

Karlitosway1978 wrote:

Bottom line, you stated that hacking is legal provided you obtain no information, that was wrong. you were wrong and therefore I and others are correct in stating so.

I'm not going to get into this for much longer because I thought I was discussing this with a solicitor, and I would really like to have this conversation on boards with a clued in solicitor and not a templemore school boy.

I never stated hacking was legal, my job is to prevent it, so I wouldn't come on to boards encouraging it, I have met with your cyber crime team many times around the country at many seminar's and I've never been impressed.

The bottom line is the law is flawed, you're understanding of what is and isn't a crime and how the law relates to it is flawed and only someone who doesn't work in IT or IT security would argue that it isn't.

I'm wrong you're right keep up the good work.

ntlbell

Karlitosway1978 wrote:

Excuse me? I believe it was already pointed out to you by another user in plain English.

You said it was legal and were proven wrong. Simple

This was a reply to if mail/msg's dir was listed on login, your getting lost now.

ntlbell

Nietzschean wrote:

As for the OP's post, logging into the secure part of a website, you could easily prove the page was view'd/downloaded from apache's logs of all the pictures that would have been pulled to go with the page, claiming he didn't view em wouldn't be much use really, he willfully accessed a protected part of the site , if he closed his browser after having a peak or a proper root around i don't see the difference....

No it's not easy to prove as apache logs CANNOT be used as admissable eveidence.

Eru

ntlbell wrote:

I'm not going to get into this for much longer because I thought I was discussing this with a solicitor, and I would really like to have this conversation on boards with a clued in solicitor and not a templemore school boy.

ha ha ha, this coming from someone with NO legal training or experience. Are you even aware that all Gardai get a degree in criminal law which is considered equal to the criminal law training for solicitors (some would say better but thats another debate), well????

Are you aware that its Gardai that prosecute the majority of criminal law cases in Ireland, well????

Or that we have fully qualified IT personell????

What makes you queen IT girl???

And you clearly did imply that hacking without using or taking information is legal.

Save your fingers, people can read the posts and realise your beaten. And not 1 person has agreed with you so far.

ntlbell

Karlitosway1978 wrote:

ha ha ha, this coming from someone with NO legal training or experience. Are you even aware that all Gardai get a degree in criminal law which is considered equal to the criminal law training for solicitors (some would say better but thats another debate), well????

Are you aware that its Gardai that prosecute the majority of criminal law cases in Ireland, well????

Or that we have fully qualified IT personell????

What makes you queen IT girl???

And you clearly did imply that hacking without using or taking information is legal.

Save your fingers, people can read the posts and realise your beaten. And not 1 person has agreed with you so far.

You have IT personell, what they're qualified to do bar drinking coffee and reading cartoons I'm not sure.

We're both using the term hacking in the wrong way, and I should know better, hacking is legal...very much so, I can fire up my home network and hack to my hearts content for personal enjoyment and break no laws.

This was not about winning or loosing, it's a discussion, when you put the ego to one side, you could learn something from the thread, as I have.

I don't belive we've had anyone from the IT security industry to agree or disagree or any solicitor's but it would be alot more intresting if we got both.

Eru

Original question:

dublindude wrote:

Rival website is logging into private areas of the website to snoop my design etc. For example, this would be similar to me logging in under another users account on boards.ie to read their private messages

Your reply:

ntlbell wrote:

as long as no information is changed or destroyed, or used for personal gain it's not illegal. proving they used the information for personal gain is a tough one. all logs can not be used as admissible eveidence.

Liama then pointed out you were wrong by posting:

liamo wrote:

The two main offences regarding hacking in Ireland are found in the Criminal Damage Act 1991. The ‘basic hacking offence' within Section 5 prohibits the accessing of another person's data, via a computer, without that said person's consent.

The fact that you cannot accept you are wrong (and therefore giving bad advise is compounded by the fact you go on to advise him that he should get a solicitor. To do what? Sue for what is a criminal act????? This shows your complete lack of legal knowledge and the fact you will hand out bad advice.

I could go all day but I , Liama, Duffman and Nietzschean have all posted showing your talking crap.

In fact Nietzschean even felt the need to jump in with this comments:

Nietzschean wrote:

is just you trying to through in technical terms to make up for your lack of understanding of all the relevent laws

Nietzschean wrote:

i think your approach here of trying to rule out people who know their legalese is pretty lame

So while its been fun and your trying to walk away despite insulting myself, my colleagues (I hope you never genuinely need us) and making yourself out too be nothing but an arrogant fool the original poster has recieved proper and correct advise and will be aware that you are talking through your ass so the purpose of this thread has been well served.

Oh and by commenting

ntlbell wrote:

hacking is legal...very much so, I can fire up my home network and hack to my hearts content for personal enjoyment and break no laws.

you show your complete ignorance as I already stated that permission by the owner is paramount as is the mens rea and actus reus. How can you steal your own property or information and have intent to steal from yourself? Your comment makes no sense, why doesnt that surprise me?

ntlbell

You sure you're not a politician?

I didn't advise him to see a solicitor so he could SUE.

I have requried the services of the guards to deal with incidents of cyber crime, and my education in the law of cyber crime is mostly down to talking with members of that team, young clueless idiots who openly admit to be not very up on IT but are _trying_ and depend on people like me with expirience like mine to help them.

anyway, it's nearing paddys day, shouldn't you be busy putting a shine on your riot gear?

Eru

ntlbell wrote:

I didn't advise him to see a solicitor so he could SUE.

Then why did you? What else could a private solicitor do? Anyone with even a basic grasp of Irish law would suggest he contact the police not a solicitor if he wanted to press charges. Keep going, your knowledge is how good?:p

ntlbell wrote:

I have requried the services of the guards to deal with incidents of cyber crime, and my education in the law of cyber crime is mostly down to talking with members of that team, young clueless idiots who openly admit to be not very up on IT but are _trying_ and depend on people like me with expirience like mine to help them.

Oh I see, here I was thinking that you need 2 years in Templemore followed by at least 2 years uniform work prior to applying to be a detective. Thanks for explaining that, you can go straight in to be a detective, no training or experience. No, on second thoughts I think you just dont have a clue what your talking about. (BTW, I already told you we have our own IT people, I never said they were even Gardai so why would we need you?)

ntlbell wrote:

anyway, it's nearing paddys day, shouldn't you be busy putting a shine on your riot gear?

Again, I hope you never need us and can always laugh and mock the people that risk their lives for you and this nation. Many people cannot for various reasons. But I personaly hope that Paddies day is sunny and filled with family fun. Are you planning on causing trouble?

Still, mock and laugh away. Its a terrible thing to have such an inferiority complex.

ntlbell

Karlitosway1978 wrote:

Then why did you? What else could a private solicitor do? Anyone with even a basic grasp of Irish law would suggest he contact the police not a solicitor if he wanted to press charges. Keep going, your knowledge is how good?:p

Because a simple chat with a solicitor is all it needs to know there's no point in taking it any further.

or he could go to the guards and be passed from one idiot to an other and listen to "uh emm uh eh HACKERS????"

No, on second thoughts I think you just dont have a clue what your talking about. (BTW, I already told you we have our own IT people, I never said they were even Gardai so why would we need you?)

So the guarda don't call in outside security consultants to work on certain cases? Riiiight.

smeggle

What I fail to see is what all the arguing is about?

Maybe if you try reading what the OP wrote before arguing?
Quote OP's post;

I own a website. Rival website is logging into private areas of the website to snoop my design etc.

The specific word there is 'Private'. Simply put if they are getting into there without the owners permission means they are 'Hacking' or 'Breaking and Entering'. (The anology of breaking and entering into a house then holds 'Philosophically' in the sence that the burglar is breaking into a 'Private' area). Just because a server has public access does not mean that all areas are 'Allowed' to be accessed. If I found anyone in certain specific areas of my server/s without my permission other than the permission I have given,

Then 1. I would want to know why and 2. If you don't have a good enough reason, (which the offender obviously wouldn't) then I will do my utmost to have them face charges.

The law covering that has been quoted.

The OP should therefore contact his local Gardia Computer Crimes section, provide all relevant information and let them deal with it. Quite simple really.

liamo

smeggle wrote:

What I fail to see is what all the arguing is about?

Differences of opinion that got out of hand.

smeggle wrote:

Maybe if you try reading what the OP wrote before arguing?

Everyone read it. The arguing was an unexpected and diverting spectator event

Following these detailed (*cough* *cough*) discussions, I'd be interested to know what the intentions of the Original Poster are. DublinDude, care to comment?

Regards,

Liam