McDowell to shut casinos

dingle · 07-03-2006 8:30am #1

From today's Examiner

GAMING clubs are to be closed down under plans by Justice Minister Michael McDowell.

Mr McDowell said they were operating under the guise of private members’ clubs, but were essentially casinos.

“Casinos are illegal in Ireland. All commercial clubs where unlawful gaming takes place are illegal in Ireland,” he said.

“A number of places now are posing as casinos, under the rubric of private members’ clubs, and it’s my intention to make sure the law is fully enforced against all of them. They are all illegal.”

He added: “I’m going to close them all down, by using the law and amending the law if necessary; the Gaming and Lotteries Act of 1956.”

He was responding to a question in relation to a report on money laundering in Ireland by an international expert body.

The Financial Action Task Force said it was “a matter of concern” that private gaming clubs, which operated “casino-like facilities”, were not included in anti-money laundering legislation.

The 1956 act effectively prohibits the types of gaming carried out in casinos. An inter-departmental review of the act completed in 2000 backed the position that casino-type gambling “should not be provided for”. The minister’s plans will come as a shock to private gaming clubs.

“We are a private members’ club, and, as such, we are happy we operate fully within the law,” said one club owner, who wished to remain anonymous.

However, he said he would prefer to see legislation regulating the area.

Gaming clubs operate as members’ clubs, under which everyone entering them becomes a member. Most do not charge a membership fee. There are estimated to be more than 10 such clubs in Dublin and at least two in Cork.

Licensing barrister Constance Cassidy SC said that, as she understood it, these clubs operated on a profit basis and not for the mutual benefit of the club itself or the members.

“The control of the club is not vested in the members, as I understand it, nor are the committee elected on an annual basis, therefore they are not private members’ clubs under the Intoxicating Liquor Act.”

She added: “If gaming as defined by the 1956 act took place on such premises, prosecutions can take place and the gardaí are entitled to prosecute.”

She said it was “open to the minister”, if he wanted, to amend or update the 1956 act and bring it into line with the National Lottery Act 1986.

Washout · 07-03-2006 8:31am

On the bus this morning listning to RTE radio 1.

they were doing a newspaper report and i caught a report on the justice minister vowing to close gaming casinos in Ireland.

anyone know what paper it was from?

nevermind deleted thread

jd · 07-03-2006 8:34am

De paper..
http://www.irishexaminer.com/pport/web/ireland/Full_Story/did-sgiJzDewBBXVssglO-LCk0lQvU.asp

McDowell to shut casinos
By Cormac O’Keeffe
GAMING clubs are to be closed down under plans by Justice Minister Michael McDowell.

Mr McDowell said they were operating under the guise of private members’ clubs, but were essentially casinos.

“Casinos are illegal in Ireland. All commercial clubs where unlawful gaming takes place are illegal in Ireland,” he said.

Sleipnir · 07-03-2006 8:35am

Well, he's kinda right in that the casinos are circumventing the law; not a casino but a club?
The barrister is also correct in stating that they are operating to make profit for the owners and not as 'clubs' which are for the benefit and enjoyment of it's members (like a golf club)

i dont' mind casino's being open but they do need to be regulated.

dingle · 07-03-2006 8:53am

Mods,please lock this thread so the discussion is only on one thread

Mr. Flibble · 07-03-2006 8:58am

Sleipnir wrote:

The barrister is also correct in stating that they are operating to make profit for the owners and not as 'clubs' which are for the benefit and enjoyment of it's members (like a golf club).

Don't golf clubs make profits?

I don't think this should be used as a reason to close them, if the choice was between a casino club that made a profit and no casino club the members would perfer (enjoy and benifit from) one that existed.

That said I think people who play unwinable games are tools, but each to their own.

Mr. Flibble · 07-03-2006 8:59am

boo. close the other thread.

Mr. Flibble · 07-03-2006 9:32am

You know if I had dropped a few hundred grand in a casino I'd have a good mind to sue. That would make an interesting case.

Culchie · 07-03-2006 9:37am

They'll be a big hoo haa for couple of weeks, Govt. willl wait for Cavendish decision, and they'll copy that decision, cos Bertie and Mickey McD can't make decisions to save their lives.

There'll then be another hoo haa from Gaming lobby group which Dermot Desmond will front, and get people like Ken Doherty, Tommy Tiernan involved .... and yellow bellied government will then copy the new gaming laws that were recently brought into UK, and bringing certain 'casino' status to the likes of the Fitz etc...and make it legal once and for all.

All a load of guff, but the hot air expended in the short term is going to make uncomfortable times for poker organisors/operators.
I have vision of Garda raids, 'keystone cops' style....on the whim of some over zealous Superintendent (with a tash) down in Galway/Limerick/Cork etc....

dontKnow · 07-03-2006 9:59am

I understood that poker is not covered by any Irish gaming acts on the grounds that it is a game of skill. And that as a result poker is legal in Ireland.

It would be interesting to get the views of a legal experts on this.?

jem · 07-03-2006 10:15am

for f sake. there are people being killed, garda goings on in doneygall, garda talking about another blue flu and this ashole goes to stop a game of cards. crazy stuff.

Mr. Flibble · 07-03-2006 10:22am

I just read thru the GAMING AND LOTTERIES ACT, 1956 (http://193.178.1.79/1956_2.html), looks like its all illegal. Now I want to play more than ever:D

dontKnow, taken from the act: '"gaming" means playing a game (whether of skill or chance or partly of skill and partly of chance)' - so its covered weather you argue its a game of chance or skill.

We are alowed play at circus' so long as its a 6 pence freezeout (or less), and we play for less than 10 days. Oh, we have to notify the Seargent of the local Garda in writing first. (Section 6)

PPP-Pit Boss · 07-03-2006 10:31am

Tis the other thread that is slightly misleading. He did not say he was vowing to shut card rooms but that he was vowing to shut down casinos. It does not bode well however for the many casinos around Ireland. this is directly on the shirt-tails of the Cavandish fiasco and would appear to have started a trend. Card-clubs now that SURELY is a different story... The gaming and lotteries act covers games in which "the house has an advantage".. no doubt this argument will come to the fore and be regurgitated with all the frequency of Jordans visits to the breast enhancement clinic.

Glowingmind · 07-03-2006 10:40am

To be honest, i'll believe it when i see it. Our government is pretty fantastic at saying stuff ("We're gonna introduce x, y and z and then legislate for p, q and r!!") and pretty pathetic when it comes to enforcing it. Potentially in the long term it may come to pass, and in the short term there'll be the odd "raid" - most likely in the format Culchie mentions above - "Ah sher c'mon lads, would yiz ever stop that, yer makin an awful racket"

RoundTower · 07-03-2006 10:41am

dontKnow wrote:

I understood that poker is not covered by any Irish gaming acts on the grounds that it is a game of skill. And that as a result poker is legal in Ireland.

It would be interesting to get the views of a legal experts on this.?

We have the views of legal experts. They all say the exact same thing which is "nobody really knows".

charlesanto · 07-03-2006 10:44am

I understood that poker is not covered by any Irish gaming acts on the grounds that it is a game of skill. And that as a result poker is legal in Ireland.

GAMING AND LOTTERIES ACT, 1956
Definitions. 2.—In this Act—

"gaming" means playing a game (whether of skill or chance or partly of skill and partly of chance) for stakes hazarded by the players;

ocallagh · 07-03-2006 10:56am

Mr. Flibble wrote:

I just read thru the GAMING AND LOTTERIES ACT, 1956 (http://193.178.1.79/1956_2.html), looks like its all illegal. Now I want to play more than ever:D

dontKnow, taken from the act: '"gaming" means playing a game (whether of skill or chance or partly of skill and partly of chance)' - so its covered weather you argue its a game of chance or skill.

We are alowed play at circus' so long as its a 6 pence freezeout (or less), and we play for less than 10 days. Oh, we have to notify the Seargent of the local Garda in writing first. (Section 6)

Quote from the 56 Gaming & Lotteries Act

"Any person who obstructs or impedes a member of the Garda Síochána in the exercise of his powers under this Act or who, on being asked his name and address by such member, fails to give them or gives a name or address which is false or misleading shall be guilty of an offence and shall be liable on summary conviction to a fine not exceeding twenty-five pounds."

Joe Bloggs, Middle of Nowhere. here's a pony. gl

jacQues · 07-03-2006 11:01am

Its a bit double in my eyes. They are going to tackle casinos but the poker/casino sites that Boyle/Ladbrokes/PaddyPower run are not going to be tackled? Maybe I got this bit wrong, but if not...WTF? I don't mind if there is some kind of rule about this, but surely that would be unfair treatment from the casino's point of view? Or do the on-line ones fall under a whole different rule?

Either way, poker is like bridge and spots. There is no way to ban it, since it really depends on how its run to whether its lawfull. My personal opinion is that tournaments are allowed but cash games aren't (under those rules, that is). As a gamer, I am happy. Tournaments are "my thing". But I can imagine that some people will see it more serious.

jacQues

Culchie · 07-03-2006 11:04am

The online casinos have gaming licences. Normally issued from an Indian 'reserve' or Antigua or Gilbraltar

They're mostly open to interpretation as well, as even the USA hasn't proper regulation on this....but that's another ball game.

5starpool · 07-03-2006 11:13am

We should all go back to mass and start praying more. Repeal Vatican II I say. The youth of today do too much gambling and fornication (I wish).

Ban Everything!!!!!

dontKnow · 07-03-2006 11:24am

Mr Flibble,

An extract from the act is copied below.
On reading closely I think that poker looks legal as long as there is for example an hourly charge. A rake from each pot would make it illegal.

In hourly charged poker no stake is "hazarded with the promoter" so that clause doesnt apply.

dontKnow

4.—(1) No person shall promote or assist in promoting or provide facilities for any kind of gaming—

( a ) in which by reason of the nature of the game, the chances of all the players, including the banker, are not equal, or
( b ) in which any portion of the stakes is retained by the promoter or is retained by the banker otherwise than as winnings on the result of the play, or
( c ) by means of any slot-machine not prohibited by section 10.
(2) Such gaming is in this Act referred to as unlawful gaming.

(3) Gaming shall not be unlawful if no stake is hazarded by the players with the promoter or banker other than a charge for the right to take part in the game, provided that—

( a ) only one such charge is made in respect of the day on which the game is played, and
( b ) the charge is of the same amount for all the players, and
( c ) the promoter derives no personal profit from the promotion of the game.

Culchie · 07-03-2006 11:32am

point (c) is a bit of a sticking point though

Mr. Flibble · 07-03-2006 11:38am

jacQues wrote:

Its a bit double in my eyes. They are going to tackle casinos but the poker/casino sites that Boyle/Ladbrokes/PaddyPower run are not going to be tackled? Maybe I got this bit wrong, but if not...WTF? I don't mind if there is some kind of rule about this, but surely that would be unfair treatment from the casino's point of view? Or do the on-line ones fall under a whole different rule?

jacQues

There is absloutly no point in them trying to tackle online gaming. So long as the company is run outside the state they couldn't practically enforce a ban - unless we were to follow our great firewall of china wielding chummies.

jacQues wrote:

My personal opinion is that tournaments are allowed but cash games aren't (under those rules, that is). As a gamer, I am happy. Tournaments are "my thing". But I can imagine that some people will see it more serious.
jacQues

According to that act (my interpretation of it at least) is that a game of poker is legal if the house (anyone) doen't take a fee from the pot. Also says that any fee to play can only be paid once - so no fee from tournament topups...

4.&#8212;(1) No person shall promote or assist in promoting or provide facilities for any kind of gaming&#8212;

      ( a ) in which by reason of the nature of the game, the chances of all the players, including the banker, are not equal, or

      ( b ) in which any portion of the stakes is retained by the promoter or is retained by the banker otherwise than as winnings on the result of the play, or

      ( c ) by means of any slot-machine not prohibited by section 10.

     (2) Such gaming is in this Act referred to as unlawful gaming.

     (3) Gaming shall not be unlawful if no stake is hazarded by the players with the promoter or banker other than a charge for the right to take part in the game, provided that&#8212;

      ( a ) only one such charge is made in respect of the day on which the game is played, and

      ( b ) the charge is of the same amount for all the players, and

      ( c ) the promoter derives no personal profit from the promotion of the game.

EDIT: sorry, posted this before seeing the last 2 posts

Hagar · 07-03-2006 11:39am

Does the title of this thread not acknowledge that these are not "clubs" merely casinos pretending to be "clubs"

fixer · 07-03-2006 11:43am

Culchie wrote:

point (c) is a bit of a sticking point though

you can cook the books to show expenses for most anything, it won't show as profit.

Doodee · 07-03-2006 11:47am

if they weren't to turn over a profit surely they could request donations on a blinds basis that if un-paid would be heavily frowned upon by the members of the club (towards a member who doesn't pay).

Mr. Flibble · 07-03-2006 11:49am

dontKnow wrote:

Mr Flibble,

An extract from the act is copied below.
On reading closely I think that poker looks legal as long as there is for example an hourly charge. A rake from each pot would make it illegal.

In hourly charged poker no stake is "hazarded with the promoter" so that clause doesnt apply.

dontKnow

I agree. It came up a while ago on boards that the Fitz would be changing the way they charge players in cash games. They haven't bothered. I wouldn't bother with such trifiling things either if I had to worry about clearly illegal roulette and blackjack going on in the same room.

Culchie · 07-03-2006 11:51am

fixer wrote:

you can cook the books to show expenses for most anything, it won't show as profit.

Cooking the books is illegal.
I know what you are saying, but let's face it, it isn't the answer either.
We're talking bundling receipts, mileage etc...

The promoter is making a profit, and the onus would be on him to prove he wasn't, not on the state to prove he was. e.g C.A.B.

dontKnow · 07-03-2006 11:56am

Culchie,

none of the clauses a,b or c apply since no stake is "hazarded with the promoter" as far as I can see.

donKnow

Mr. Flibble · 07-03-2006 12:00pm

Slightly offtopic....ish. What is considered profit? I mean you have to pay workers salarys, should be able to get one yourself being the promoter, no? So why not just make salary = profit.

fixer · 07-03-2006 12:02pm

club management
dealers
cards
chips
refreshments
building maintenance
toiletries
advertising
real estate depreciation
rates
utilities
cleaning
etc

There wouldn't be a profit shown on €12/hour/player.

Hagar · 07-03-2006 12:04pm

fixer wrote:

club management
dealers
cards
chips
refreshments
building maintenance
toiletries
advertising
real estate depreciation
rates
utilities
cleaning
etc

There wouldn't be a profit shown on €12/hour/player.

Why are they doing it so?

Dodge · 07-03-2006 12:06pm

They could claim to make profit off other sales (drinks etc)

Mr. Flibble · 07-03-2006 12:07pm

fixer wrote:

real estate depreciation

Hello!!!

BigDragon · 07-03-2006 12:19pm

5starpool wrote:

We should all go back to mass and start praying more. Repeal Vatican II I say. The youth of today do too much gambling and fornication (I wish).

Ban Everything!!!!!

The Catholic Church and the CofE are two of the biggest investors in the stock market and pensions markets in the world. Raise the Lord.

fixer · 07-03-2006 12:20pm

Hagar wrote:

Why are they doing it so?

if things went to poker only, there wouldn't be nearly as many doing it. the few who did manage would cut costs and expect a higher percentage of the local players which should make them break even.

currently, the games of chance pay the majority of the bills, while the card room portions are "loss leaders" to get butts in seats (and cash in the door).

fixer · 07-03-2006 12:21pm

Mr. Flibble wrote:

Hello!!!

um, hi.

Point?

5starpool · 07-03-2006 12:21pm

BigDragon wrote:

Raise the Lord.

I would if I had cards.....

And I didn't even know he played Poker. We should let Mad Mullah know.

Imposter · 07-03-2006 12:22pm

Aside from the is poker gambling question, what gets me is how a government (pretty much all governments) can outlaw certain types of what they define as gambling but actually run, and usually with a monopoly or a near monopoly the other types!

The national Lottery for example is government run in every EU country (i'm guessing here but if it's not all it's nost) and allows the government to say they invest all this money in sports facilities or whatever usually hiding the fact that it's lottery funds rather than funds from the tax take.

Similarly in Holland the governement has a monopoly on casinos which is now been contested in the european courts. Here is austria casinos/card casinos are licensed and again the biggest player in the casino side (they run poker in the smaller towns too) of things is the government.

The only land based gambling that is legal and relatively free from government is bookmakers (albeit the laws and regulations they must abide by).

Surely if one type of gambling is legal all types should? How can they say that people playing in casinos are damaging families etc etc.. but people betting in bookmakers or buying scratchcards or lotto tickets aren't?

Is the attitude of the Austrian judges, that was discussed in another thread, just a 'we're not listening' answer to anyone who tries to make a stand against the government using 100% proof of their claims?

Would bringing a case to the european courts regarding all gambling make any sense? If not why not and if so why hasn't it being done?

BigDragon · 07-03-2006 12:24pm

Look, when boils down to it and we've discussed all the legalities.....

This is Ireland and not 1 politician is going to fcuk with Dermot Desmond. End of.....

Mr. Flibble · 07-03-2006 12:25pm

If they're raking €120/hr per table I doubt its a loss leader. 3 to 6 tables running for hours per day = pay lots of bills.

Mr. Flibble · 07-03-2006 12:27pm

fixer wrote:

um, hi.

Point?

My point was that property hasn't tended to depreciate in Dublin in the last 20 years.

fixer · 07-03-2006 12:39pm

Mr. Flibble wrote:

My point was that property hasn't tended to depreciate in Dublin in the last 20 years.

in accounting terms, they all do. that's why it's a great write-off. charge it as an expense then when you flip the property, you turn an even bigger profit.

Culchie · 07-03-2006 12:40pm

BigDragon wrote:

Look, when boils down to it and we've discussed all the legalities.....

This is Ireland and not 1 politician is going to fcuk with Dermot Desmond. End of.....

ditto, don't forget Ken and Tommy

mewso · 07-03-2006 12:40pm

dingle wrote:

Mods,please lock this thread so the discussion is only on one
thread

Threads merged. We're very progressive thinking here.

dontKnow · 07-03-2006 12:45pm

Hmmm On second thoughts I think poker is probably illegal according to that act. rake or hourly charge.

But its not certain.It looks like the intention was to make games like poker illegal. But the wording is poor and ambiguous.

The_Flyer · 07-03-2006 12:48pm

anyone heard anything as to how long it would take to implement these "new regulations"? Surely he can't just go ahead and do it without first thoroughly analysing the whole gaming industry in Ireland?

Culchie · 07-03-2006 12:48pm

dontKnow wrote:

But its not certain.It looks like the intention was to make games like poker illegal. But the wording is poor and ambiguous.

This Republic was founded on a 'fudge' ... Ambiguity is our national talent.

Bertie is our leader, no better example.

Mr. Flibble · 07-03-2006 12:52pm

dontKnow wrote:

Hmmm On second thoughts I think poker is probably illegal according to that act. rake or hourly charge.

But its not certain.It looks like the intention was to make games like poker illegal. But the wording is poor and ambiguous.

I don't think poker is illegal from reading that document. An hourly rate could be charged - this wouldn't be considered a stake as it was never part of the game.

Mr. Flibble · 07-03-2006 12:55pm

The_Flyer wrote:

anyone heard anything as to how long it would take to implement these "new regulations"? Surely he can't just go ahead and do it without first thoroughly analysing the whole gaming industry in Ireland?

It looks like he can start arresting people yesterday.

bohsman · 07-03-2006 1:01pm

Mr. Flibble wrote:

I agree. It came up a while ago on boards that the Fitz would be changing the way they charge players in cash games. They haven't bothered. I wouldn't bother with such trifiling things either if I had to worry about clearly illegal roulette and blackjack going on in the same room.

1 drunk boardster went into the Fitz and completely misread a sign saying that the rake was being raised.
Also it is nowhere near 120euro per hour.

McDowell to shut casinos

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