QQ, ten high flop

FullOf..IT

This hand actually happened in the 500 game that was on in the citywest in Jan. Its being doin my head in since then and since u are all knowledgeable folk, id appreciate ur thoughts

Its the very first hand of it and the villian im being told has a wsop braclet...
Starting stacks are 7k, blinds 50 - 100 ( i think).

folded around to button who makes it 300.

i look down in sb at qq and re raise to 1000 (happy to take it here oop)
he thinks about it and calls.

flop is 3 7 10 rainbow

i bet 2k, called,

next cards a blank, i check, he dumps the rest of his chips in instantly.

i fold thinking the best situation is him having JJ or mayb but doubtfull AK.

wot do u think he has and could i have played this hand better?

handsfree

i would have bet the turn as well. its hard to say without any reads but he could have had a set however the only info you have is that he flat called your huge reraise preflop and called a potsized bet on the flop.

however if he put you on a underpair with such a big reraise, and the called what looked like a continuation bet then i'd be calling the reraise all in, but definately asking another question of him with a turn bet

ntlbell

was he bald with glasses?

If it was I doubt he had much and you should of called

Samba

He has one of 4 hands AA/KK/Top Set/Pulled a move.

I don't like the check on the turn, looks like a missed AK and a continuation bet.

If you thought your QQ was no good, you should have figured this out pre-flop and dumped them, if he dogged you on the flop, so be it, it's going to be very hard to sniff out a flopped set, however a flopped set will want to extract as much money as possible, so I would not expect an all in bet on the turn, more a value bet.

If i was confident my QQ was good I would continue firing on the turn.

He flat called your re-raise which is interesting.

Good hand to post.

breadmonkey

He has one of 4 hands AA/KK/Set/Pulled a move.

So any possible hand then?

Samba

breadmonkey wrote:

So any possible hand then?

Pedancy

I'll correct my post accordingly.

If he is bluffing he is doing so with AK/Q or smaller pp.

I'm inclined to believe he had one of the first three.

May I also ask if you actually have anything to add to this discussion? bar the above of course.

breadmonkey

Samba wrote:

Pedancy

I'll correct my post accordingly.

If he is bluffing he is doing so with AK/Q or smaller pp.

I'm inclined to believe he had one of the first three.

May I also ask if you actually have anything to add to this discussion? bar the above of course.

Don't get bitchy just because I questioned your post. And no, at the moment I read here to learn and can't really contibute very much.

FullOf..IT

Samba wrote:

He has one of 4 hands AA/KK/Top Set/Pulled a move.

I don't like the check on the turn, looks like a missed AK and a continuation bet.

If i was confident my QQ was good I would continue firing on the turn.

problem is imo i have to go all in if im betting the turn. I honestly didnt think my qq was good when he flat called my flop bet hense the check.

Hectorjelly

If this is a good player then he has AA KK JJ TT maybe AK, I wouldnt worry too much about a set since you charged him too much preflop for it, and his all in on the turn isnt how most players would play one.

Since its the 1st hand (so no read) and its a tournament I say **** it and call - you have an overpair which is generally the nuts in these situations

a-k-47

nice steal.

ntlbell

Sounds alot like Player X

RoundTower

This is a very tough hand, it sounds like your opponent had a hand and will have AA/KK a lot here. Sounds like a good fold.

FullOf..IT

ntlbell wrote:

Sounds alot like Player X

its funny that u should mention player x. He actually knocked me out of this tourny. Not gonna get into specifics of it but he went all in after i bet flop of K 10 3r . He had 10 9. I had AA turn was a 9. Still stings when i think about it now I wud have had 120k when averg was 30 with 35 players left. Thanks for reminding me!

fuzzbox

Tough hand.
Very tough hand.

Since its the first hand its less likely that he is screwing around.

I would like to lay this down against a good player, he probably has precisely KK .

Im not saying that I could lay it down though.

PS - I like the turn check - regardless of whether you plan to call or fold.

breadmonkey

fuzzbox wrote:

PS - I like the turn check - regardless of whether you plan to call or fold

Why?

ianmc38

ntlbell wrote:

Sounds alot like Player X


ALL YOUR BASES BELONG TO US!!!

JOPKE JOPKE

pwned!

Edit: oh him.

ntlbell

FullOf..IT wrote:

its funny that u should mention player x. He actually knocked me out of this tourny. Not gonna get into specifics of it but he went all in after i bet flop of K 10 3r . He had 10 9. I had AA turn was a 9. Still stings when i think about it now I wud have had 120k when averg was 30 with 35 players left. Thanks for reminding me!

sorry I went out of the 250e in the first hand, so actually no I'm not sorry!!

cardshark202

I probably would have bet a little less on the flop, probably something between half the pot and two thirds, other than that it seems like a good fold, very tough situation to find yourself in in the first hand.

handsfree

ntlbell wrote:

Sounds alot like Player X


ALL YOUR BASES BELONG TO US!!!

JOPKE JOPKE

pwned!

what a knob!!

fuzzbox

breadmonkey wrote:

Why?

If you bet then you will get called by AA and probably KK (and TT and 77)
JJ and AK and 99 and 88 will all fold.

So betting loses the max when you are behind, but does not allow villains to bluff when you are ahead.

Thats assuming that he will fold JJ and 99 and 88 to a turn bet, which seems likely. (and AT btw, if he would have that, which would be pretty crazy).

ntlbell

handsfree wrote:

what a knob!!

Nope, that's actually his head.

handsfree

ntlbell wrote:

Nope, that's actually his head.

lol

cardshark202

ntlbell wrote:

Sounds alot like Player X


ALL YOUR BASES BELONG TO US!!!

JOPKE JOPKE

...pic...

pwned!

Was there any need for this?

ntlbell

cardshark202 wrote:

Was there any need for this?

It's all a bit of fun, i like norman alot, calm down bai!

Your not talking to gholi now....;)

Hectorjelly

breadmonkey wrote:

Why?

because he will never fold a better hand, a check gives him a chance to bluff and a bet commits us to the hand

The Ace Face

FullOf..IT wrote:

This hand actually happened in the 500 game that was on in the citywest in Jan. Its being doin my head in since then and since u are all knowledgeable folk, id appreciate ur thoughts

Its the very first hand of it and the villian im being told has a wsop braclet...
Starting stacks are 7k, blinds 50 - 100 ( i think).

folded around to button who makes it 300.


I put him on 77 or 1010, fold was the move.
Ray.

breadmonkey

Hectorjelly wrote:

because he will never fold a better hand, a check gives him a chance to bluff and a bet commits us to the hand

Are you assuming he won't bet if he has a better hand?

Hectorjelly

breadmonkey wrote:

Are you assuming he won't bet if he has a better hand?

No I think he will bet any overpair

breadmonkey

I don;t get it. You check, giving him the opportunity to bluff, yes? So what if he expects thisand bets his AA etc?

ntlbell

breadmonkey wrote:

I don;t get it. You check, giving him the opportunity to bluff, yes? So what if he expects thisand bets his AA etc?

Well if he has AA you just saved yourself a bet by checking and you can get away from the hand

fuzzbox

He will bet AA and KK and TT and 77

BUT - he might also bet JJ and 99 and 88 and maybe even AK.

He can BET with these hands, but he cannot call an all-in with these hands (Well he shouldnt).

He can only CALL with AA/KK/TT/77

Betting has negative expectation as you figure to only get called when you are beat.

Does that make sense?

breadmonkey

So we are checking here with the intention of folding to a bet?

Hectorjelly

breadmonkey wrote:

So we are checking here with the intention of folding to a bet?

NO! Reread fuzzs last post

breadmonkey

Sorry to be a nuisance but I still don't get it.

case1 - we are ahead
We check here, hoping to entice him to bluff and then nail him.

case2 - we are behind
We check here and he bets. What's the difference with case1? I don't see how we have gained any more info.

What will indicate whether we are ahead or behind?

fuzzbox

There is no difference.

The options-
1. Bet - if we bet then
-- we lose all our money when we are behind
-- we gain no more money when we are ahead

2. Check and call - if we check and call then
-- we lose all our money when we are behind
-- we gain all villains money when we are ahead (and villain does not outdraw)

3. Check and fold - if we check and fold then
-- we lose no more money and wonder for 4 years if we made the right decision or not.

If we bet - then we can only lose money
If we check then villains range of hands that put money into the pot is wider.

breadmonkey

fuzzbox wrote:

There is no difference.

The options-
1. Bet - if we bet then
-- we lose all our money when we are behind
-- we gain no more money when we are ahead

2. Check and call - if we check and call then
-- we lose all our money when we are behind
-- we gain all villains money when we are ahead (and villain does not outdraw)

3. Check and fold - if we check and fold then
-- we lose no more money and wonder for 4 years if we made the right decision or not.

If we bet - then we can only lose money
If we check then villains range of hands that put money into the pot is wider.

Ok, thanks

FullOf..IT

he told me later that he had KK. He said that he wud have been walking if he had of been me ie he would had pushed on turn with QQ. I dont know if he was saying that i was too passive in this spot or that it was a gud laydown but then again he cud have been lying about having KK.

fuzzbox

Do I win a prize for guessing right?

cardshark202

fuzzbox wrote:

Do I win a prize for guessing right?

Congratulations!!

Samba

breadmonkey wrote:

Don't get bitchy just because I questioned your post. And no, at the moment I read here to learn and can't really contibute very much.

lol... bitchy? don't be such a Pedant.


He apparently won a WSOP braclet, if he did, he most certainly did not have KK and you were bluffed off the pot

careca

fuzzbox wrote:

He will bet AA and KK and TT and 77

BUT - he might also bet JJ and 99 and 88 and maybe even AK.

He can BET with these hands, but he cannot call an all-in with these hands (Well he shouldnt).

He can only CALL with AA/KK/TT/77

Good hand.

One question based on above. If FullofIT had gone all in on the turn, should the player have called with KK ?

breadmonkey

lol... bitchy? don't be such a Pedant.

Excuse meh? Can a mod confirm that he edited his post to have a go at me?

fuzzbox

careca wrote:

Good hand.

One question based on above. If FullofIT had gone all in on the turn, should the player have called with KK ?

Its close, but I would call. You are ahead of JJ and QQ (6 ways each) and behind AA (6 ways) and TT (2 ways), and tied with the other KK (1 way).

12 hands you are ahead of
1 hand you are tied with
8 hands you are behind

I call.

Whats interesting is that if he had AA then he should CHECK the turn. Theres one for the crowd.

RoundTower

fuzzbox wrote:

Its close, but I would call. You are ahead of JJ and QQ (6 ways each) and behind AA (6 ways) and TT (2 ways), and tied with the other KK (1 way).

12 hands you are ahead of
1 hand you are tied with
8 hands you are behind

I call.

Whats interesting is that if he had AA then he should CHECK the turn. Theres one for the crowd.

I don't think so. In this case he is up against a random unknown fish (no offence meant) in level one of the tournament. He can justifiably expect to get paid off for his whole stack by any top pair or better. It is significantly different from Fullofit being up against someone who allegedly has a WSOP bracelet, even if that was a joke it means he is probably up against a competent player.

fuzzbox

I disagree - any top pair or better held by a random fish moves in on the turn.

Check either indicates no hand, or a good player with a hand he might pass.

Check behind.

Samba

Excuse meh? Can a mod confirm that he edited his post to have a go at me?

Don't get your panties in a twist breadmonkey, I hope my use of the word pedant did not insult you.


Fullofit, did you tell him you had QQ after or before he told you he was holding KK, players at a high standard generallly lie about their hands more often than they tell the truth, at least in my experience.

The check gave him a great bluff opportunity, you bet out the flop, indicating you caught some of it or have better a good player will probably know this and put you to the test on the flop. The fact that it was checked to him and then he pushes has me very suspicious.

breadmonkey

Don't get your panties in a twist breadmonkey, I hope my use of the word pedant did not insult you.

Yes, you're right, your mistifying use of the word "pedant" both confused and scared me.

So what was it he had again? Any two cards in the deck? Bravo, excellent analysis.

Gholimoli

careca wrote:

Good hand.

One question based on above. If FullofIT had gone all in on the turn, should the player have called with KK ?

i think yes.
he has reraised pre-flop and not many players would do that first hand OOP wih TT or anythying else on the board that would make a set.
that leaves AA.
if he has AA here so be it .he may have alot of other hands that he is ahead of and one hand(AA) that his behind.
i think a call would be the right play here.

RoundTower

fuzzbox wrote:

I disagree - any top pair or better held by a random fish moves in on the turn.

Check either indicates no hand, or a good player with a hand he might pass.

Check behind.

I don't know about this. I see so many players who don't bet here because they have correctly got the idea they are behind. But once they check and there is a bet they can't let go of their top pair/overpair just in case he is bluffing.

Samba, I think he can easily have KK here. I don't think good players are more likely to lie about their hands than bad ones, just better at it.

RoundTower

Do we get to find out who it was anyway, or did you never find anything more about him than that someone said he had a WSOP bracelet?

fuzzbox

RoundTower wrote:

I don't know about this. I see so many players who don't bet here because they have correctly got the idea they are behind. But once they check and there is a bet they can't let go of their top pair/overpair just in case he is bluffing.

Samba, I think he can easily have KK here. I don't think good players are more likely to lie about their hands than bad ones, just better at it.

He reraised preflop from the small blind on the first hand.
He bet hard on a T-high flop

Do you think he has AT? T9?

He probably has one of a very small number of hands
AK, AA, KK, QQ, JJ, TT seem to me to be the most likely subset, but even if you want to put AT or KT in there, then go right ahead.

He now checks the turn. Either he has us destroyed (TT), he has nothing (AK) or he has a hand that he feels might be behind (given our action, raise, call reraise, call strong flop bet). If we bet, he might fold (hero in this hand folded QQ here). but there are not too many cards that hurt us. If he has AK then he is drawing dead, if he has KK/QQ/JJ then he has two outs, and if he has TT then we have two outs (so we lose the same against this hand).

If he has AT then he has two outs, and if he has KT (really !!!) he has 5 outs.

Against his range of hands we area a massive favourite, but if we bet then we risk losing the last 4k that he has. If we check, then he might bet his last 4k on the river believing that he is value betting, or he might check/call believing that we are bluffing. And if he has AK, then he might catch a K/A to bust himself (or bluff the river)