Female specific Self defense

MaxBax

I realised some of my principles for self defense don't apply as readily to women as they do to men. A friend of my mine was talking about self defense, the classes she had in Transition year with some kratty dude and some of the methods they were taught.

i told her it was quite unlikely that she'd ever get mugged or robbed and if she did she'd probably get away unscathed if she jsut coughed up her bag/purse/money.

however, if the intent of the attacker is rape as opposed to robbery, the scenario is drastically changed. we discussed that the majority of rapes (no info to back this up - sorry) are commited by men known to the victim.

i'm just wondering if any one here teaches, or has taken a Rape specific sself defense course and if they have what were they taught, and do they think it was beneficial etc.

MaeveD

Spot on MaxBax...

Yep... it's what I specialise in

Have a look at our site.... we run regular courses. www.defendu.ie

Our group have done lots of research on this. Yes the majority of rapes are carried out by someone known to the victim. This doesn't just mean family member or friend as is widely thought... it means that they have made themselves known to the victim... ie someone they say hello to at a bus stop

Millionaire

I have taught females SD. As for rape , it is avoidance and awareness, being aware of potential threats.

If you are serious and want to learn more, I can recommend 2 DVDS I have.

They are by Rich Dimitari of Senshido.
1. he has an excellent DVD of a ladies rape SD seminar, with all the pyschlogical training.
2. Shredder Delux DVD is highly recommended by me.

Can be bought on www.senshido.com

MaxBax

Yes, thanks.

Does the awareness and prevention idea " don't talk to strangers"?

MaxBax

Millionarie i'll try and get a hold of those dvds. However, I think it's important I don't make any paranoid about stuff,

Talliesin

MaeveD wrote:

Yes the majority of rapes are carried out by someone known to the victim. This doesn't just mean family member or friend as is widely thought... it means that they have made themselves known to the victim... ie someone they say hello to at a bus stop

You hardly need to re-define "known to the victim" in this manner before the majority of attackers are shown to fall into that group.

MaxBax

I don't get ya.

MaeveD

From experience teaching, yes we do... the majority of women we've taught think a rapist is usually a family member or friend, it's what they hear most in the media.

MaeveD

Awareness and avoidance is the key... but women also need physical techniques for when their awareness skills fail for whatever reason.

MaxBax

can you outline the physical techniques? escape from guard? mount? using the shredder?

MaeveD

I'll give you an idea of some of the attacks we deal with... I'm not putting the escapes on any board.

There's also awareness and avoidance, falling to the ground and distance control.

1) On the ground, someone between their legs (guard)
2) In position above.. being choked or punched
3) Standing rear choke
4) Standing and kneeling hair pull
5) On all fours attacked from behind
6) Wrist grab
7) Standing front choke or grab
8) Edged weapon defence

MaxBax

fair enough, thanks.

Baggio...

Hi M.B.

I do a bit of teaching now and then, like you I realized that women are not likely to find themselves in a "straightener". If I was going to teach women about RBSD I would have to change my approach. So I went on the search to see who was really good. And I got a hell of a lot of feedback about Melissa Soalt aka - Dr. Ruthless. Check out her website:
http://www.dr-ruthless.com/

I bought her "fierce and female" DVD set, and they are excellent and cover all aspects of Women's S.D. She covers all the major principles, Awareness, striking, mentality, fear, escapes (multiple) and ground fighting. Personally I would consider her style to be like "Combatives" for Women. I have also heard great reports about the shredder like Millionaire said. But Soalt's DVDs cover a vast array of realistic situations, and are well worth the cash.

Good luck, Baggio.

Millionaire

yes, I read in a USA magazine that Dr Ruthless was good.

Baggio...

Hey M,

I was very Impressed I gotta say. She covers virtually everything in the DVDs (well virtually).
I guess the hardest thing a woman has to do is muster up the courage to fight back and override the fear factor. Which is not an easy thing to do, especially if you are not trained, or not naturally agressive. But your darker side can be brought out, through training and using your fear as a weapon.

Another thing about Mellisa's program, she has adjusted the body mechanics to suit women, to get greater power when striking. I'll tell ya' I would not like to be on the receiving end of one of her onsloughts:D .

Cheers, Baggio.

fianna.5u.com

A few years ago I was going to Launch a Women SPecific Self defence course in my college. I contacted the Rape Crisis Centre for some info. You know, stuff like "Have they done something like this before?" "Have you any advice etc". They wanted nothing to do with it, they said the vast vast vast majority of Rape victims were not in a position to defend themselves and even if they had a weapon they would have been helpless.

I just hope that when someone is doing a Rape defence class, they start with a request that everyone involved makes themselves aware of the risks, is compasionate to others, gives thanks to god for not being raped / for coming out the other side sfaely etc.

I would never teach a rape defence class because I couldnt live with myself. If a girl wants to defend herslef from a psychotic man she needs to become very strong, fit, powerful, tough, technically a great fighter etc. And when you are all of that or of that mind frame your pretty much sure your not going to get raped anyway.

In fact I think, and maybe Zen could describe this in a more palatable manner, that the notion of a Rape Defence course makes Rape an established element of our society which I think is bad.

Peace

Millionaire

fianna.5u.com wrote:

I would never teach a rape defence class because I couldnt live with myself. If a girl wants to defend herslef from a psychotic man she needs to become very strong, fit, powerful, tough, technically a great fighter etc. And when you are all of that or of that mind frame your pretty much sure your not going to get raped anyway.

In fact I think, and maybe Zen could describe this in a more palatable manner, that the notion of a Rape Defence course makes Rape an established element of our society which I think is bad.

Peace

Thats the reason I would not teach that sort of course either. and also that is the reason I have turned my back on short intense SD courses, marketed that you can learn SD in such a short time. I think alot of people are bring set up, with this.

You can learn about the technique, but can you do it in a live situation?

Baggio...

It'a all about the mentality, but what's the choice? sit there and hope the guy just rapes you? What's to say he does not want to bring you to a secondary location. If that's the case you are probably never coming back alive.
Personally I'd rather have some sort of fighting chance, remember were not saying that you have to kill the guy or slug it out. It's a stun and run tactic. Tear out his eyes, SCREAM and run like hell. There are no guarantees in any Self-Defence situation. But for my I'll go down fighting (assuming I can't avoid and escape).

Great help the Rape crisis centre were to you Fianna. You tried to do a really sensible thing by getting as much info as possible, and they wanted nothing to do with you?? That's just crazy.

Cheers Bagg.

FiannaGym.com

The poin thte Rape Crisis Centre was making was this, even if I had magically endowed the rape victims they dealt with, with the same skill I now have as an MMA fighter, it woul dbe of no use to them. Generally I agree, I had hoped the course would introduce MMA to them and some peopl emight continue to train. THose people with the fortitude and attitude that would ocntinue to train generally wouldnt be the rape victims anyway.

Peace

uberpixie

FiannaGym.com wrote:

The poin thte Rape Crisis Centre was making was this, even if I had magically endowed the rape victims they dealt with, with the same skill I now have as an MMA fighter, it woul dbe of no use to them. Generally I agree, I had hoped the course would introduce MMA to them and some peopl emight continue to train. THose people with the fortitude and attitude that would ocntinue to train generally wouldnt be the rape victims anyway.

Peace

Don't know about that one.

Mma would be great for confidence/phyisical confrontation: not much good if the girl is too drunk or has a spiked drink.

A persons environment that they hang out in and the people they are with has the biggest impact.

Not if they do mma or not.

But i would agree a long course in mma is better than nothing.

Roper

Fianna is correct.

I personally think it's a wee bit rich of an experienced martial artist to assume they can teach rape defence based on their experiences of rape situations, which is usually zero.

Still, as discussed before, if you want to sell you first have to scare. And I agree Pearce, the presence of rape defence courses does lend to the problem. Fair play to you for contacting the Rape defence centre before starting.

Baggio...

Hey Roper,

Ur right in a way. Who am I to be able to teach women about rape? The only thing I could possibly do, is follow some ones teaching methods that have been proven to work by someone like “Dr. Ruthless”, and I fully recognise that she would be a far better teacher than I. Although I feel, that some training is better than no training at all.
Also, you could say that about most Martial Artists these days, how many instructors are actually qualified to teach realistic self defence, if experience is a pre-requisite?

Most (not all) instructors base their system on "theory" rather than actual hands on knowledge, or experience. Luckily I had three years of door work which I felt that really opened my mind to what real violence was like(not that I consider myself an exceptional person or fighter in anyway).

Many TMA today base their knowledge on outdated theoretical techniques that were designed many years ago, for two individuals to fight under certain conditions. Have these outdated techniques ever been pressure tested properly?
I doubt it, as they are many people still teaching them today.

So Roper if you think that real experience is an issue - shouldn't most Martial artists hang up their boots? Just a thought. Cheers Baggio.

Roper

Baggio... wrote:

So Roper if you think that real experience is an issue - shouldn't most Martial artists hang up their boots? Just a thought. Cheers Baggio.

Well that's a question of mindset again isn't it?
I think an awful lot of "street focussed" martial arts are suffering from just the problem you mention Baggio. For an example see some of the videos of self defence techniques online from the thread on Kenpo.

Rape is a far more complex issue than most people are aware of. I'd like to see the research that people who design these courses put in. I doubt it's very extensive.

Baggio...

Hmm... I'lll mention it again. I study Kenpo as a hobby, and for fitness. I don't see those conveluted techniques being useful for the street.
However for the street I believe in Combatives, and yes it it a question of mindset. That's what Combatives is all about - mindset, doing whatever it takes to survive.

I still feel you have evaded my earlier question. Cheers, Baggio.

Roper

Ok, I felt I addressed it but I'll go again. I didn't know you studyed kenpo by the way...

Your question

So Roper if you think that real experience is an issue - shouldn't most Martial artists hang up their boots? Just a thought. Cheers Baggio

Firstly, on a point of semantics, I never said real experience was necessary. ie. to have had personal experience with rape.

My point, which you seem to have misinterpreted, was not that a person should have personal experience with rape, but that they should be aware of the broader issues concerning the crime of rape. As Fianna metioned above, those who have this experience such as those in the rape crisis centre, would look upon most so called "rape defence" courses with some scorn. An awful lot of martial arts organisations who run courses like this may be well intentioned, but in their wish to cover all the bases self defence wise, they may well be cashing in on an issue for which they cannot offer adequate protection. I'm by no means tarring all with the same brush here, I'm sure there are many fine courses.

So lastly then, your question. Should people hange up their boots because they haven't been beaten, raped, attacked etc? Well, I think that should be obvious. If you have a healthy mindset, you will invariably answer, no, of course not.

Baggio...

I'd agree with you...
As long as you have cultivated correct mindset, one is on the right path. Some pople naturally have it, some don't. I never had it from the start, it was something I had to cultivate from some scenario type training etc. There are no real guarantees in any SD, and if any one says there is - ask for your money back:D . As you said there are a few... not so great courses out there, even if their intentions are good. Cheers mate, Baggio.

Colm_OReilly

uberpixie,

what sort of comment is this:

Mma would be great for confidence/phyisical confrontation: not much good if the girl is too drunk or has a spiked drink.

Taking this to it's logical conclusion we shouldn't do anything since if we're drugged we won't be a conscious actor in the event.

I agree with Stokes on this one. I remember myself and Kav talking to some guy who wanted to teach a female self defence course based around the guard - worst case scenario type thing. How good do you think someone can get at such a visceral, complex, multi-faceted activity such as fighting in a 12 week course?

Any sort of life altering change can't be covered in such a short space of time, it's a permanent change that will bring about results.

If I was, and I wouldn't be inclined to, teach any sort of self defence course, it would be an intro to the ISR Matrix, which is essentially clinch, and would involve sparring sparring, and then some sparring. I'd also have to stress a change in mindset for those who always "happen" to get in fights, and constant training for those who want to be good at fighting.

MaxBax

Good discussion.

MaeveD

I agree great discussion...

For a guy to figure out what would work well for an untrained woman is extremely difficult.

The system I teach was created in the US by a law enforcement officer...It took 7 years. He interviewed rapists in prison and thousands of rape victims, and did and still does endless research.

I suppose it could be described as mma... it's not style specific and the physical techniques really come down to just one very simple principal. There are no magic techniques and I wouldn't teach it if I didn't believe in it 100%

We've been in contact with many groups who deal with sexual assault and rape, and yes they deal with the aftermath. I really can't blame them not entertaining people offering courses, imagine the rubbish they've been offered down the years.

Please look at the statistics on one of the sites. Find out the percentages of reported rapes and rapists successfully prosecuted... frighteningly low. For us, to do nothing wasn't an option.

Millionaire

for ladies in a rape situation,,,

rip and tear for eyes, throat and about anywhere else.

and most have nice long finger nails...

might be worth it, if nothing to loose????

Roper

Just to be clear on my comments above, I've never seen Maeve's course and certainly didn't mean to imply that her course was in any way similar to the type of course I was referring to. I read back the last page and it there's a chance it could have been construed that way. I'm so careful since I got sued before:)

MaeveD

Millionaire wrote:

for ladies in a rape situation,,,

rip and tear for eyes, throat and about anywhere else.

and most have nice long finger nails...

might be worth it, if nothing to loose????

Millionaire, that might work... but think... he's probably choking her or hitting her to make her comply.
One study that was done with rapists in the US found that they actually didn't mind that much if a woman they were attacking clawed at their face, because a lot the time they were so hyped up on alcohol, drugs or just adrenalin that they didn't feel it.

Roper... I really didn't even think that

There are a few techniques that I wouldn't teach... might come as a surprise to some mma guys, but a knee of the groin is one of them...
Here's a little test for you guys.... why would I not teach it to the girls?

Baggio...

Interesting.... There are many reasons not to go for the groin - it's well protected, not easy to hit, men's reflexes are great at covering that particular, area and they can fight on for a short period even if full contact is made.

However I believe if it's done at the right time, and in the correct way (proper body mechanics etc.) - it's very effective. Plus no one should ever rely on a single shot. Your first shot should just be an opening gamut to a series of multiple vicious strikes - even if it's in a rape situation.

Gotta disagree with you on strikes to the eyes ears and throat etc. If you know what you are doing and can stay cool, a strike to the eye will should end the altercation if done properly. Again check out Dr. Ruthless, if she hit me with a flurry of her strikes, I would not be too happy:D .
Check out her timing and the use of deception, if you employ these methods I think the woman stands a good chance of getting away. Although, it's easy saying all this - she's gotta be cool in a situation like that, and I'm sure it can't be easy at all. But through realistic training it is possible to cultivate such a mindset.

Cheers, Baggio.

Roper

a) Groin shots actually don't work that much. I've only ever seen one guy totally stopped by a shot to the spuds and that was through a box. Anyone else has only stopped cos it was funny or cos they were looking at the referee to help them out. I saw one guy nearly get lifted off the ground in a fight outside a club one night. Shin to stones. He walked through it and proceeded to pound on the other guy until he was pulled off. Then he collapsed.

Baggio...

True enough... the adrenaline can overide the pain factor. Again, I see the groin strike as just one in a flurry of other strikes. In a rape situaiton, each attack should be as brutal and savage a possible. Gouge, tear, rip - do whatever you have to do to survive. Although there are no guarantees in any form of S.D.

Cheers,

Bagg.

MaeveD

Here's the reasons I don't teach it... I'm not saying it can't work, it just doesn't work well enough when a woman is attacked by a man.

Firstly, if a woman knees a guy while standing straight in front of him, she'll probably get split by a head butt... think of your reaction to something coming towards your groin.

Secondly, usually the attacker is going to drag the victim to a secondary location to carry out his attack... or if he feels the location is ok he'll push her to the ground right there.
Now find the nearest female, mum, sister etc... on with your groin guard (just in case) and and ask her to help you conduct a little experiment. Pull or push her and ask her to try and knee you...

Baggio...I've never heard of Dr Ruthless... and I hope you don't mind me saying this but youre still thinking like a trained bloke. Timing, deception... think of your Mum, how long would it take her to be proficient? Striking eyes.. youre giving a terrified female a target of approx 1 square inch.

I'm not trying to take the piss... only trying to make you think differently. Most women wouldn't even consider a martial art or even regular self defence training.

Baggio...

I guess you could say that Dr. Ruthless is a woman, but fights like a man. Check her stuff out on her website. If she can do it - why could'nt another woman?

I see you point about my Mum and all - bearing in mind that she is 69 years of age (or should I say was, as she passed away in Dec.), what could she possibly do, even if ahe was alive she could do nothing at that age. What could I do at 69??.

I guess I'm talking about a fit young girl, who might have a moderate interest in training, and has the will to want to fight off an attacker. It's been done quite often, women with no training have fought of these "would be" attackers. It's all about mindset...

As for the knee to the groin thing - yes you can get a head butt. There are many ways to counter this and must be practiced every time you do a knee strike - keep your hands up, angle you head down - so he will end up planting his nose onto your crainium - worse for him, or move you head to the side and come in for a neck bite. All this stuff has to be trained on a regular basis, if you don't - don't expect them to work for you when the time comes.

And of couse for us men, that's the exact reaction we want cause when he bends forward were going to use his own force to crash him to the ground, and then follow up with our feet (only if the threat is still there). Personally I only would use a knee strike as a follow up after a palm heel shot or some such tech.

Cheers,

Baggio.

FiannaGym.com

Sorry MaeveD but if I think of virtually any woman I know I'd be thinking "Jeez if they ever get attacked by a man they are totally done for. I hope they never do a self defence course because that would be useless, therefore a waste of time and money. Worse still it might delude them. If any woman wanted to be able to defend themselves they would need to be at least as good a fighter as me, maybe even better, that just depends." Then I'd tell them "avoid all rape situations like the plauge."

The point that the rape crisis centre made was that even if someone had your skill MaeveD (which I asume is really high because you are a woman and you teach) it would have been usless.

Bottom line (and I know MA people dont like hearing the hard truth) the vast majority of rapes take place against younger people, drunk people, drugged people, relatives etc. If people who invested their time teachingmartial arts preached this instead they would be doing a better job.

Peace

MaeveD

Firstly, sorry about your Mum Baggio

If I'm still around at that age and able, I intend to be still training... with the stuff I do, I think it's very possible

Hand on heart, I would say that a woman that age could use the main principal of what we teach in our course. It certainly wouldn't be easy. I think the oldest woman we've taught was 60ish and she could do most of the techniques no problem. The course is designed for the normal everyday untrained woman.

For women who want to practice the knee we say head down and to the opposite side of the knee theyre using and point the toes for extra effect. Biting - only as a last resort, as you don't know what nasty disease they could have.

I'll have a look at that website when I get a mo....

Baggio...

No worries...Thanks Maeve, It's been a bit rough.

Yer' right on the biting front - only as a last resort life or death, all sorts of yummy diseases out there. It's about the only brutal technique I don't practice on the bag, as I really don't ever want to do it outside. I actually don't know why it's tought to be used so much.

BTW - if you have methods that can work for women that's great, and fair play.

I don't agree with Fianna, I think women can be tought to defend themselves, especially some of the girls I know.

Cheers,

Bagg.

Quillo

Just a bit on being moved to a secondary location (in any defence situation):

The only reason an attacker looks to move his intended victim to another location (location is that he believes that the second location gives him an additional advantage over his intended victim that is not present at the first location (location A).

Something rarely discussed in a self defence situation is that whatever you are going to do, do it location A because, however grim things may look at location A you can be sure that they are going to be worse at location B.

MaeveD

Bang on Quillo...
We teach this to both kids and adults... second location is where the attacker feels safe and can do what he wants to do at his leisure

Fianna... I think the RCC are very wrong. You're right about drugs and alcohol and we do preach about that in our course. I strongly disagree with your attitude to women defending themselves against rape :mad:

Mikel

Maeve, I can see where both you and fianna are coming from. While it seems horrible to talk about something so horrific in such abstract terms, it would be useful to know what percentage of attacks are random street thuggery. And in what percentage of these cases alcohol was involved. As far as I know, in this country there has never been a solitary case of a woman having been drugged first, what I mean is that it has never been found in her bloodstream, though maybe it leaves it quickly. I can see what you mean, that they have to do something, was it not the advice some years ago to be compliant in case the guy hurt her more, but that lead to more psychological difficulty for the woman afterwards, not to mention legally, being torn apart in court for not resisting.
I would be genuinely interested hearing more about the RCC viewpoint to understand where they are coming from, it would be crazy not to listen to what they had to say if they deal with it all the time. I mean, what use is SD to a sixteen year old relative or a frightened wife/gf, or are they agreeing with Fianna, that she has no chance against a strong aggressive male, pumped full of adrenalin. Are they drawing a distinction between oportunistic rape by an acquaintance, and the brutal atreet attack everyone thinks of when they hear the word rape?

Roper

As far as I know there has never been a proven use of a "date rape" drug in Ireland.

MaxBax

I think we're moving into the humanties and politics arena here but the date rape drug use is very contraversial. AFAIK, the rape crisis centre and "women's group" claim it's out there and it's dangerous but afaik, the gardaí are saying there's been no evidence.

MaeveD

Mikel wrote:

Maeve, I can see where both you and fianna are coming from. While it seems horrible to talk about something so horrific in such abstract terms, it would be useful to know what percentage of attacks are random street thuggery. And in what percentage of these cases alcohol was involved. As far as I know, in this country there has never been a solitary case of a woman having been drugged first, what I mean is that it has never been found in her bloodstream, though maybe it leaves it quickly. I can see what you mean, that they have to do something, was it not the advice some years ago to be compliant in case the guy hurt her more, but that lead to more psychological difficulty for the woman afterwards, not to mention legally, being torn apart in court for not resisting.
I would be genuinely interested hearing more about the RCC viewpoint to understand where they are coming from, it would be crazy not to listen to what they had to say if they deal with it all the time. I mean, what use is SD to a sixteen year old relative or a frightened wife/gf, or are they agreeing with Fianna, that she has no chance against a strong aggressive male, pumped full of adrenalin. Are they drawing a distinction between oportunistic rape by an acquaintance, and the brutal atreet attack everyone thinks of when they hear the word rape?

With regards to date rape drug use... it happens here, they're even been used on blokes as a stupid joke.
The drugs used are only detectable for a very short time, hence if the woman leaves getting tested even for a few hours they are undetectable.
A very low percentage of rapes are actually reported here and a very low percentage of those reported lead to a conviction. And when I say low, we're talking single figures! I think it's getting better though.
The RCC deal with the aftermath thats where their expertise lies... I understand their standing on it. I STRONGLY disagree that a woman has no chance in a sexual assault or rape scenario.

Also just a thought for you all... there's a group here called one in four... it's called that for a reason... and they're talking about male and females

loz

MaeveD wrote:

The drugs used are only detectable for a very short time, hence if the woman leaves getting tested even for a few hours they are undetectable.

wrong - Rohypnol stays in the body for several hours, and can be detected in the urine up to 72 hours after taking it

- source http://www.4woman.gov/faq/rohypnol.htm

Mikel

Does the date rape drug thing happen here though? I mean, its never been found, not even once, and apparently these things are made to been insoluble or obviously detected if they are put in a drink. None of this is to dispute anything you say or trivialise it or anything like that, and I don't really know anything about this stuff which is why I asked. IMHO, alcohol is the most likely culprit, I think drugs are a red herring. TBH, if you wandered around Temple Bar on a saturday night, the number of women completely vulnerable is horrendous. That obviously doesn't excuse anything, but personal responsibility is an issue i feel.
I know the conviction rate is very very low, i'm no legal expert so i don't know how that could be changed. It seems that any unfortunate woman in that position can be torn asunder by a barrister.
Maybe the RCC feel that a woman would have a false sense of security?

That is all complicated stuff, but you feel Maeve that a woman stands a chance of survival in such a scenario, whereas some of the other guys don't.
TBH, I can't see a woman would have much chance, but i wouldn't be comfortable telling my gf, you've no chance, just comply.
So what do you do? Do you get a guy to attack a room of women while they kick him and scream at him?

MaeveD

Loz... that was plain rude..... Rohypol can be detected for up to 72 hours not will be detected!!

Other widely used date rape drugs are GHB (Gamma Hydroxy Butyrate) can be detectable for up to 8 hours and Ketamine which can be detected for up to 24 hours

One date rape drug side effect: amnesia

loz

Mikel wrote:

apparently these things are made to been insoluble or obviously detected if they are put in a drink.

Rohypnol used to disolve clear - but for a number of years now makes liquids turn blue, since realisation that its secondary use was to assist rape.

Not sure about other similar drugs.

loz

MaeveD wrote:

Loz... that was plain rude.....

Well i'm English..........

One date rape drug side effect: amnesia

accept that - however victim who suspects foul play - who can't remember where she was last night - or what happened - ( and can write off alchohol/other drug taking as the cause ) surely things would add up ?