Differences between Aikido and BJJ

columok

Tim,

The end goal of Aikido and BJJ is identical: namely flow, minimal energy input and good posture/positioning. However the training methods in 99.9999% of Aikido and BJJ are diametrically opposed. While BJJ work through the clunky rough stuff in sparring and progress to that graceful, minimal floaty, slick stuff- Aikido tries to get that from the outset and ditches sparring. Therefore, I feel, Aikidoka rarely can apply smooth graceful Aikido in a sparring (read resisting opponents environment) while many BJJ people can.

So if Aikido got their training methods sorted out they'd start off looking like wrestling/judo but after years develop flow rather than starting off looking slick but never developing it against.... a resisting opponent.

Colum

From another thread. Discuss.

Thanks for the tip Roper!:)

Tim_Murphy

Interesting idea of keeping threads on topic!;)

Where do you train as even in Ireland there are several different schools of Aikido?

University of Limerick. No idea what particular style they are but in fairness everywhere I've seen a bit of aikido either in the flesh or on the web has been more or less the same type of thing. Referring to training methods here, not techniques as such.

In BJJ we roll for 15-30mins depending on the time we have... in Aikido the advanced students train 'juwaza' for about the same length of time, but it's not the same as rolling or sparring as Aikido is supposedly non-competitive

Well that's a pretty fundamental difference right there.

Maeve, the mymartialartisbetterthanyours argument will rage forever but as long as it's kept polite and factual, I don't see any harm in it, in fact I think it's extremely beneficial. One such debate made me re-evaluate my training and I'm the better for it now.

I agree completely.

Maeve,
I only asked the question becuase I'm curious. Either the way you do aikido is completely different to the way I've seen it done elsewhere, the way you do BJJ is completely different to how it's normally done, or your aikido and bjj classes aren't as similiar as you make out.

columok

UL train Aikikai style with Gerry Begley and a fella called Ian. Both are really sound and excellent instructors.

I would say that every style of Aikido that I have seen trains more or less in the same way. Tomiki can be an exception.

MaeveD

Colum, as already discussed in previous posts... your Aikido experience and mine are very different... and I would agree with you, with your experience of Aikido, based on the style you did, there would be little or no similarities.... but thats what you trained... I gave my opinion based on my experience.

Aikido is a study body movement, it has really helped my BJJ!
I don't need to push my viewpoints or challange anyone, I don't agree with you.... you don't agree with me... so what??

In my opinion the 'better than' argument is boring... it's been done to death here... Discussion is great!

To the OP... sorry for my part in going right off topic!

columok

Maeve,

Ok well I'll answer your post here rather than pushing the other thread further OT.

MaeveD wrote:

Colum, as already discussed in previous posts... your Aikido experience and mine are very different... and I would agree with you, with your experience of Aikido, based on the style you did, there would be little or no similarities.... but thats what you trained... I gave my opinion based on my experience.

Ah but my experience involves training with other people and other styles- people from Iwama schools, Yoshinkan schools, Tomiki schools, some of Cyril's people and of course people from Whitefriars etc. etc. So I have an understanding not only of Aikikai (Gyo Fu Kan) aikido and the range of styles within the Irish Aikido Federation but also amongst the greater cosmos of Aikido. Again its the benefit of training in a university- you get lots of visiting students from other styles. And my main teachers were all excellent- especially Dermot Moran and Bryan McCann.

Now I appreciate you may have a bugbear with John and Co. put personally I don't. I just feel that Aikido training methods, across the board, and particularily the attitude against sparring, works against Aikido developing what it says on the tin.

So whether you train softly like the Ki Society or hard like Gozo Shioda people unless you're sparring you can't develop the skills to use your aikido.

Aikido is a study body movement, it has really helped my BJJ!
I don't need to push my viewpoints or challange anyone, I don't agree with you.... you don't agree with me... so what??

I mean push your viewpoints as in to push your boundaries. If you dont feel that your opinions need to be tested then I guess discussion isnt your intent.

In my opinion the 'better than' argument is boring... it's been done to death here... Discussion is great!

Nobody mentioned better than.

cavedave

One thing really made me question doing Aikido. There is a large body of research on how to warm up before class. In Aikido classes we still carried out static stretching before classes even though these have been proved ineffective at best. [Shrier 1999, Pope 2000].

This may seem like a small matter but I think it illustrates a problem. While saying scientific methods cannot be applied to Aikido because sparring doesn't work or encourages competition seems like a reasonable argument. However this does not explain why scientific methods cannot be applies to the warm up. This made me believe the prohibition on sparring was a smoke screen to cover a general unwillingness to adapt and change.
I will say that I really enjoyed Aikido and had great teachers in it.

MaxBax

i was told the aikido in france is a lot more similar to judo then the aikido in ireland. i was telling my judo coach i thought aikido was a waste of mind, body and spirit but he said the aikido done in france has its merits and afaik there is the same National governing body for them both, something like " the french judo and aikido federation" or sumtin.

MaeveD

Getting back to the other post... to remind you, I said that Aikido and BJJ similar in a lot of ways and very different.

Colum.... whats a bugbear? If it means I have a problem with him... the short answer is no... would I recommend anyone to train with him... a definite no... I've had nothing but bad experiences with him. But I know students of his who are training with him for years and really enjoy it and thats great for them.

Repeating myself.... your Aikido experience and mine are very different...
The Aikido community in Ireland is very small... when I began there were about 100 people and I think I trained with all of them at one time or another over the years. 11 years on it's really grown, I'm not sure of the numbers but probably around 500, still very small in comparisson to other martial arts.
Aikido here is great for the size of this country, with fantastic instructors but I was hungry and wanted more, so I travelled and trained in many different countries, did hundreds of courses with many different teachers and have trained Aikido with literally thousands of people.

You want to push my boundaries.. I do pretty well pushing them all by myself?

Last year I took up BJJ, I've already travelled to the US 3 times to train with some amazing people.... I'm off again in a few weeks time. And thats just two aspects of my training.... there's more

Against resisting opponents.... as I said before, why would I want to?? If attacked, I'd use practical non specific self defence techniques... I've been attacked... luckily I escaped without a scratch.... violence is ugly and its a life changing experience.

Cavedave....
can't agree with you more on the traditional warm ups in some clubs and also a reluctance to change. Our warm ups like our Aikido evolve and change all the time.. Personally I use yoga, rolling and drills to warm up... though I do some static stretching as I'm carrying a few nasty injuries and find they work well.

MaxBax...
Again yes there are some similiarities between Judo and Aikido.. not just in France. Why would you say Aikido is a waste of anything? If you've actually tried it, why not say it wasn't for you instead?
In France they do it right, sport and martial arts get enormous funding from the state. Martial arts teachers are paid by the state, dojos are built by the state. The Aikido federations have to get on or they get no funding, recently the two main ones created just one federation.

I've asked some of my Aikido friends who train BJJ too if they think they are similar in ways... the answer is yes

Colum... what written on the Aikido tin??

columok

You want to push my boundaries.. I do pretty well pushing them all by myself?

No I meant that "one" pushes "one's" boundaries through challenging "one's" beliefs.

Against resisting opponents.... as I said before, why would I want to?? If attacked, I'd use practical non specific self defence techniques... I've been attacked... luckily I escaped without a scratch.... violence is ugly and its a life changing experience.

Me too. But I escaped with a scratch. (5 stitches under my right eye). Well if Aikido has no use against a resisting opponent then I suppose it becomes a purely esoteric, non-combat related "moving meditation" as such.

Colum... what written on the Aikido tin??

Aikido often has the terms self defence and "using your opponents energy against them" written on the tin. While it is never described as the most combatative martial art it is put to the general public that after many many years of training an Aikidoka can easily defend themselves against one or many attackers.

Now, to repeat, if you're saying that Aikido to yourself and your group isn't considered to have much practical application in the self defence sense then I think that's great. It might, to you, be a study of movement that bares little or no relation to application in a live or resisting opponent situation. Maybe if you could clarify this we could move forward?

Thanks,

Colum

MaeveD

Did and do exactly that by quitting my job and moving to another country by myself to train fulltime for a year... have tried many martial arts... could go on and on....

I escaped without a scratch... ehhh I'd say that means my Aikido worked?

I've never heard that claim about Aikido, who advertises that?, it's a stupid and irresponsible claim for any martial art or system to make.

To clarify.... and as I've said before, in my opinion martial arts don't make good self defence.....some Aikido techniques have great practical application. Members of the Gardai, Public Order Unit, Airport Police and Beaumont Hospital Security Staff etc who train with our group use them in real situations all the time, with great success.

Being female and if attacked I would use non specific self defence techniques that would work best for me. Hopefully my martial arts and self defence training will keep me safe.

Odaise Gaelach

MaeveD wrote:

To clarify.... and as I've said before, in my opinion martial arts don't make good self defence.....some Aikido techniques have great practical application. Members of the Gardai, Public Order Unit, Airport Police and Beaumont Hospital Security Staff etc who train with our group use them in real situations all the time, with great success.

I read somewhere that it takes around a year of training before you can properly use Aikido to defend yourself. I've only been training for five months and I honestly wouldn't be able to use it in a real situation.

MaxBax

i wonder how "using it to defend yourself" and working in "real situation" is defined.

Odaise Gaelach

MaxBax wrote:

i wonder how "using it to defend yourself" and working in "real situation" is defined.

I guess that "defending yourself" would be stopping the attack, and "real situation" would be outside of training in the dojo - where pretty much anything goes.

MaxBax

Well said!

if someone tries to attack you and just start into some ukemi i'm sure they'll just run away.

MaeveD

As I've said I hate claims like that about any martial art, it's just not true.... there are no magic systems.

Aikido is a long term study, almost eleven years and I'm still learning at every class... I learn the most from people like you who are just starting off, so thanks in advance. Where do you train?

My advice would be for self defence in a real situation, a bloke should learn at least: awareness techniques, a headlock escape, a rear choke escape, how to block punches. They're the most common attacks!

MaeveD

Good one MaxBax... given a bit of space that might work!

Odaise Gaelach

I train in Maynooth.

MaeveD

Did you go to the Irie course there?
I couldn't make it, but some of my friends did and really enjoyed it

Odaise Gaelach

Yeah, I did. It was long and hard, but ultimately really enjoyable.

Where do you train?

breadmonkey

Odaise Gaelach wrote:

I read somewhere that it takes around a year of training before you can properly use Aikido to defend yourself. I've only been training for five months and I honestly wouldn't be able to use it in a real situation.

Are you training so that you can defend yourself in a "real situation". If so, I think you need to ask yourself "Is this working for me?"

MaeveD

At the moment I train with Ray Butcher in Swords, part of DAA. I started Aikido in Phibsboro with Cyril Lagrasta, but have trained all over.

If you're not up to anything next weekend we have a French teacher coming over to give a course in DCU

columok

Well Maeve if Aikido has application to a) Effectively deal with strikes from an attacker and b) effectively deal with grabs and chokes from an attacker I feel that this should be and is easily validated in a sparring environment.

Namely- you break into your tachiwaza while someone gloves up and tries to hit you OR... you get a judoka to try and throw you or hold you while you try and not let them hold you and throw them.

I feel that Aikido training SHOULD incorporate this. Saying that people anecdotally use Aikido professionally, i feel, proves nothing.

MaeveD

Guess what, yet again I disagree... it works for those guys (who do jobs that I wouldn't do in a million years) in real life violent situations, thats validation enough for me any day...

MaxBax

hmm.

if a hurler told me he got in a fight and used his hurling ability to hit someone with a stick and defend himself i wouldn't take that to mean hurling is good for self defence.

(but being fit and strong is good for sd :-))

columok

Its the same argument that because Morihei Ueshiba beat countless opponents that it must validate his training methods.

Anecdotes prove nothing. A scientist believes that empiricism is the way to validate such things. I suppose I cant expect you to believe that science should validate training methods Maeve so more power to you.

Tim_Murphy

In my opinion the 'better than' argument is boring... it's been done to death here... Discussion is great!

I don't think anyone used the term 'better than'. I think it's an interesting discussion and personally I like that we share some hall time with the aikido club in UL as it highlights the differences in training methods and gives people (particularly beginners) a good idea as to why we train the way we do, it provides a great contrast.

What worries me is that I've walked past them a few times and heard the instructor talk about self defence in relation to what they are doing. I presume at least some of the people there buy into thinking that what they do is applicable to fighting/self defence, which I think is shameful on the part of whoever is teaching them IMO.

cletus

hey I thought I'd jump in at the end of this conversation. I've practiced a few different martial arts, jiu-jitsu (which I do at the mo) included.

I recently had the chance to try an Aikido class. I was suprised at how willing the "sparring" (for want of a better term) partners were to roll and fall for me. At one stage I stopped halfway through a technique, yet my partner flew through the air. At no point did anybody put up ANY resistance against the techniques.

Another aspect which baffled me was some of the techniques themselves, one of which involved placing one palm up and one palm down, while your partner does the same, and them flipping your partner by wrist and arm movements. As this was preceded with a " when your opponent...", I was confused, as it didn't seem very practical ( i.e. seemed to be S.D. rather than form, kata etc.)

I am by no means saying that jj is better than Aikido, however, given what i have experienced in my regular classes, as opposed to what I experienced in this class, I would go for my regular class every time. Just my €2 worth(cause the euro isnt worth a feck)

MaeveD

Colum... the founder of Aikido was a genius in my mind, also quite mad and as the stories go, he believed at the end of his life that he could catch bullets.

Colum, I love science... testing a technique quoting your earlier post: someone gloves up and tries to hit you OR... you get a judoka to try and throw you or hold you while you try and not let them hold you and throw them'

Maeve's idea of testing a technique.... one example
Teach say a hospital security guard a technique and then get him to use it with some scumbag in A&E on a Sat night. Rules: He has no gloves, no mat, no groin guard. He also can't do any serious damage to the scumbag because the hospital will get sued and he may lose his job.

Tim.. I've already said in my opinion martial arts don't make good self defence, so I totally agree with you. But on the other hand... If you are I can teach someone to be more aware and not become a victim of an attack in the first place, I am actually teaching self defence... it's not just physical stuff.

As for 'better than'... ie Colums test above, he'll glove up an knock the crap out of anyone to prove that their system is rubbish. I've seen people on the board say that all the time, it's usually an mma tma thing and I think it's wrong.

Cletus... don't say this discussion is coming to an end
From what you described, seems they were doing a drill. If it's practised incorrectly, it's total rubbish. It's hard to explain.. both keep a contact, if either lose the contact, they get say a palm heel strike to the gob, or a punch in the stomach. The flipping, they were Aikido techniques.

As for the flying through the air for no reason.. you'll see that a lot. It's either bad aikido or giving the benifit of the doubt, someone practising their ukemi... usually the first one!

columok

Hang on Maeve. I take issue at your disparaging and fraudulent statement.

As for 'better than'... ie Colums test above, he'll glove up an knock the crap out of anyone to prove that their system is rubbish. I've seen people on the board say that all the time, it's usually an mma tma thing and I think it's wrong.

What are you basing this on Maeve? I have never, nor would I (outside of a competition) glove up and knock that crap out of anyone to prove that their system is rubbish.

Colum... the founder of Aikido was a genius in my mind, also quite mad

I disagree. I'd say he was mostly madman. I'd love to know what qualifies him for genius status. He seemed to get in lots of streetfights. Not exactly someone to be looked up to. Lots of myths associated with him, many cultural exaggerations that westerners take as fact. Like how the giant's causeway was formed... (Hot tip... it wasn't a giant)

Colum, I love science... testing a technique quoting your earlier post: someone gloves up and tries to hit you OR... you get a judoka to try and throw you or hold you while you try and not let them hold you and throw them'

Maeve's idea of testing a technique.... one example
Teach say a hospital security guard a technique and then get him to use it with some scumbag in A&E on a Sat night. Rules: He has no gloves, no mat, no groin guard. He also can't do any serious damage to the scumbag because the hospital will get sued and he may lose his job.

Well if you're really subscribing to science then you'll know that your argument is fallacious as it's based on anecdotal evidence. Also you should know, if science is important to you, that two very important features of an experiment are that it can be reproduced and repeated. I would say that while my method is empirically based yours simply isn't.

And I would say a skilled upright grappler from a pressure tested background is much more likely to be able to control an opponent with minimal damage than an aikidoka can.

MaeveD

Namely- you break into your tachiwaza while someone gloves up and tries to hit you OR... you get a judoka to try and throw you or hold you while you try and not let them hold you and throw them... quote from earlier, oops sorry you said 'someone'

About the founder of Aikido, yes I think he was mad too as I've already said... I'm well aware of the rubbish thats said about him. In my opinion he created something amazing.... and I'm not alone. Of course you can have any opinion you like about him and Aikido...

Again....to reproduce and repeat a defence technique in an artifical enviornment proves nothing.

columok

Please try and use the quote button, itis absence makes your posts less legible.

quote from earlier, oops sorry you said 'someone'

You misconstrued my point. I was saying that one could test their aikido in this way. I've no need- I spar regularily. So I dont beat the crap out of anyone to invalidate their style.

Again....to reproduce and repeat a defence technique in an artifical enviornment proves nothing.

Then why do you train? After all its an "artificial environment"- how could you possibly gain anything for the dreaded street? Testing your performance must be in an environment that maximises reality and safety (if thats your buzz). Reality can be pushed to a vale tudo extreme. Safety can be pushed to points sparring. Somewhere in between you can realistically spar and develop skills while testing the validity of your training. I do that 5/6 days a week. You appear to want to do it only at the most extreme times. Your attitude seems to be -I wont spar as it proves nothing and this self defence that's so important to me is something I'll only validate when I'm in a horrible situation. That seems mad to me.

If empiricism (read science) really was your thing you'd be finding creative ways of using it rather than disregarding it absolutely as you are. Again, coming from the Aikido religion I can appreciate that maybe science isn't for you.

dunkamania

Give it a rest you two :rolleyes:

loz

Relation of mine - ex prision officer at Pankhearst ( IoW ) - ( Where Mr P Suttcliffe lives) - Prision officers do Aikido for restrant tech - for escorting the residents around the place,

I found when he showed me - that you have to be fairly unresistant to let a lock get hold of you - which you would be with a few prision officers around you waiting for an excuse ........

He got the sh*t kicked out of him by a pari of 15 years olds a few years ago -

from my limited ex - maybe look pretty - no use IRL though - ( sorry Cabelo ) - mabe like Capoara ??

MaeveD

Yep dunkamania, your quite right, time to give it a rest and agree to disagree

Loz, I think the technique they use is called nikkyo and it works really well for the guys I train with in their line of work, but they use a more practical application ie not exactly what you would learn in a typical Aikido class. If they get resistance they bring it back to a goose neck.

If you're trained and flexible and know something is coming... you can resist just about anything.

It's odd that they do Aikido for control and restraint... we use a practical application of three maybe four techniques but not the pure techniques.

Anyone can get the sh*t kicked out of them no matter what they train or how good they are

madser77

Hi MaeveD,
I've been looking for an Aikido club in Dublin city center for a few months. Tried whitefriar but they seem to have disappeared off the face of the earth ... can you recommend anyone?

dlofnep

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=twupruaBa18&search=aikido

Near the end, it appears as if he has a hidden force literally throwing the person across the room?

From what I've seen of Aikido - It's looks like some of the technique could be applicable if they didn't willingly lob themselves across the room. I personally believe that form of training won't do much for you. It's all fine in training, but what happens against someone who doesn't want to be thrown? A judoka will throw me whether I like it or not - I don't think I'd fear being thrown by anyone who trains in that manner.

Roper

madser77 wrote:

Hi MaeveD,
I've been looking for an Aikido club in Dublin city center for a few months. Tried whitefriar but they seem to have disappeared off the face of the earth ... can you recommend anyone?

Isn't there a place on Pearce Street? Or is that whitefriar???

Roper

dlofnep wrote:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=twupruaBa18&search=aikido

Near the end, it appears as if he has a hidden force literally throwing the person across the room?

From what I've seen of Aikido - It's looks like some of the technique could be applicable if they didn't willingly lob themselves across the room. I personally believe that form of training won't do much for you. It's all fine in training, but what happens against someone who doesn't want to be thrown? A judoka will throw me whether I like it or not - I don't think I'd fear being thrown by anyone who trains in that manner.

Highway to the danger zone!I'll tell you what was going on in that video. One of those guys ego's was writing checks his butt couldn't cash.

MaeveD

madser77 wrote:

Hi MaeveD,
I've been looking for an Aikido club in Dublin city center for a few months. Tried whitefriar but they seem to have disappeared off the face of the earth ... can you recommend anyone?

Sure Madser77, what area suits you best?? Whitefriars lost their hall, I know they train in Kevin St and I think theres one other venue... I'll check it out for you.

MaeveD

Roper wrote:

Isn't there a place on Pearce Street? Or is that
whitefriar???

Yep, and nope, two different clubs Roper

MaeveD

dlofnep wrote:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=twupruaBa18&search=aikido

Near the end, it appears as if he has a hidden force literally throwing the person across the room?

From what I've seen of Aikido - It's looks like some of the technique could be applicable if they didn't willingly lob themselves across the room. I personally believe that form of training won't do much for you. It's all fine in training, but what happens against someone who doesn't want to be thrown? A judoka will throw me whether I like it or not - I don't think I'd fear being thrown by anyone who trains in that manner.

Firstly, we don't use any throwing techniques as they are not practical defence techniques.

I actually expected that clip to be one of those really awful ones.. and it wasn't that bad. If the attackers had been total beginners you might think differently, there was some playing up for the camera goind on there.

Yes, I get why people think it looks like dancing, but you have to understand that we train to be able to receive a technique...

kenpo_dave

Actually theres an Aikido Dojo on the Trinity College end of Pearse Street...at least I think its Pearse Street. I dont anything about it, Ive just seen the sign outside, simply says 'Aikido'. Perhaps Maeve can shed more light on them.

MaeveD

Yep that's John Rogers... I know people who have trained there for years and love it... but I personally wouldn't recommend it to anyone... I and many people I know have had bad experiences with him.

Quillo

Spent a short time training there several years ago. Very "traditional".

Dojo training floor was one of the most usual I've come across: Concrete floor covered in wooden pallets which were in turn covered in one large thick mat.

Only mananged about 10 classes as I was recovering from a broken ankle at the time (and Seiza was pure agony !) but they seemed like a good crowd.

MaxBax

MaeveD wrote:

Yep that's John Rogers... I know people who have trained there for years and love it... but I personally wouldn't recommend it to anyone... I and many people I know have had bad experiences with him.

i heard the same. crazy people aparently.

dlofnep

MaeveD wrote:

Firstly, we don't use any throwing techniques as they are not practical defence techniques.

I can read text just as easy when it's not bold. Our of curosity.. What are your throwing techniques useful for?

MaeveD

Sorry about that... I've found that I'm not getting the important bits across properly the last few days here so bolding things I want to stress so people understand where I'm coming from.

They're good for Aikido training

dlofnep

MaeveD wrote:

They're good for Aikido training

I see..

MaxBax

well concerning judo throws and THE STREET, i've found you have to be pretty good at them for them to work, and the majority of them are too complex tbh. it would be like saying you'd need to be a blue belt standard of bjj to make you moves work.

dlofnep

I don't know, some inside or outside leg sweeps are pretty effective and easy to acheive.. Some throws or sweeps require more attention than others.

MaxBax

yeah, true i suppose. you have to be nifty though.