Squat deep, grow BIG!

Dragan

hey folks,

i have always been a big fan of utilising everything i can to help me grow in a good, natural healthy way! One of the things i like to do is pair what i consider to be a "weak" bodypart with legs for workouts, as the affect of heavy squatting and leg work on the hormones in the body can be very profound ( or so i believe ). Anyway, does anyone else hold to this train of thought?? Am i being mislead by my own beliefs?? What do you guys think about this pairing method??

Please feel free to discuss and view some of the below

http://jap.physiology.org/cgi/content/full/87/3/982
http://powerhouselouisville.com/core/resistance_and_androgen_levels.htm
http://www.abcbodybuilding.com/ghigfaxis.php

Flex

Seems to make sense training a smaller, weaker muscle after a larger one to take advantage of elevated levels of GH and test in your bloodstream.

Is the second article saying something along the lines of theres too much test in your bloodstream for the anabolic properties of it to be fully utilised because the androgen receptors in the muscle being worked cant absorb all of the test, so its better to train another muscle afterwards so the androgen receptor in that muscle can also absorb the testosterone and get more benfit from elevated testosterone levels?

Do you think it would be better to do a big muscle like quads or something, and superset them with a smaller muscle like triceps rather than doing legs first, then triceps because the more intense the workout the more GH gets released? Or does that intensity level only apply if one particular muscle is being worked intensly rather than 2 or 3 at a time?

Prior to this Id been training my legs alone, but Ill do another weaker muscle along with them from now on. Thanks for that!

t-ha

Some nice links there Dragan,

I've heard of this argument before in relation to body-part splitting v's whole-body workouts. The argument there is that whole-body workouts tend to invoke greater hormone responses, while body-part splitting typically allows more work (intensity/volume/etc.) to be done on any given muscle group. I think the same arguments apply here, if you work out your body sufficiently (i.e. enough muscles going with enough intensity at the same time) to invoke a heightened hormonal response to your training, can you still do enough work on your weaker muscle group to force it to grow (I presume it would be a small muscle group? Also, the CNS* would be fagged after the heavy squats so heavy work would likely be out the window.).

I would have the same question with regards rest times, we all know that short rest times invoke better GH expression post-WO, but do they affect how much overload we can ultimately expose our muscles to?

So I guess we should all couple heavy squats with high volume, low weight work for small additional muscle groups using short rest times? Well... it seems there are theoretical arguments for and against all this, so I guess it comes down to experience over theory: Dragan, does this technique work?

*yeah yeah I know, just call me t"CNS"ha.

Reyman

Good post Dr!

Lots of information there. Those Lab boys do their work well, even though it's hard to take in fully.

Dragan

In my opinion and from purely my own experience it works. I have successfully used coupling a weaker bodypart with a stronger on to harness some decent growth. It has worked for me so far for shoulders and biceps.

For shoulders i was doing a pretty standard shoulder workout after legs, barbell press, lateral raises, rear raises and then dumbell presses and i saw some very good size and strength increase in them.... pretty much going from military pressing 60 kilo's for one struggling rep at the start of it ( i had been back in the gym about 5 months tops at the point ) to hitting 60 kilo's for 12 i believe with a degree of ease the last time i did this workout about 3 months ago. Appearance wise my delts were bigger rounder, more detailed and more "capped" looking.

Biceps were the same, a standard workout after legs and all the weights increase and my arms went from about 17" to 18" in roughly 6 weeks. This is a decent level of growth for what is a pretty stubborn bodypart.

I think it's important that i stress that both the workouts for shoulders anc biceps were pretty standard for me, so that people can see it was not any new style of stimulus which brought about the growth, purely pairing the bodypart with legs was the ONLY change that was made and it worked for me.

joker77

Thanks for the links Dragan, some interesting reading there!

What do you reckon is average for recovery times after squats? The thing is, I'm using my legs on most days, so I find that they take a long time, 5-6 days maybe, to recover from squats.
The reason I'm asking is that I'd really like to be doing squats and leg presses once a week, on a Monday, but I cycle in 4 out of 5 weekdays (6 miles each way), play football Tues eve, Wed lunch, Thurs eve, and have a match on Saturday afternoons. I did 4 sets of 10 on Monday at a low weight, quads are still tight today, and with football training this evening they're not really getting a chance to rest.
Any ideas? Do you think it may be because this is the first time the muscles have really been hit like this?

Dragan

Okay, i may be way of bat here ( i'm sure t-ha can point us all in the right direction ) but i'm pretty sure that heavy squats and things like cycling, soccer and all that will use two different types of muscles fibers.

So, may try doing some heavier squats to hit those type 2 muscle fibres instead of 10 to 12 range where you hit the same fibres you want to use for your other activities???

Personnally, i maintain that some intense cardio has only added to the endurance in my legs and the ability to squat, but then again, i could be full of s*it!!!!

joker77

Try telling that to my legs the day after doing squats when I have to try to do 15 sets of sprint drills or shuttle runs!!!
I'm 28 but on days like that I feel about 90......

t-ha

joker77 wrote:

Thanks for the links Dragan, some interesting reading there!

What do you reckon is average for recovery times after squats? The thing is, I'm using my legs on most days, so I find that they take a long time, 5-6 days maybe, to recover from squats.
The reason I'm asking is that I'd really like to be doing squats and leg presses once a week, on a Monday, but I cycle in 4 out of 5 weekdays (6 miles each way), play football Tues eve, Wed lunch, Thurs eve, and have a match on Saturday afternoons. I did 4 sets of 10 on Monday at a low weight, quads are still tight today, and with football training this evening they're not really getting a chance to rest.
Any ideas? Do you think it may be because this is the first time the muscles have really been hit like this?

Well getting recovery times down is a bit of a science in itself, and legs typically take the longest (glutes/hams/quads/etc. - that's just alot of muscle to have it all recovering at the same time). I've found that eating alot and turning my blood into an expensive cocktail of supplements does the trick .

Seriously though, Dragan is bang on about the different ranges hitting different muscle groupings. The type II's aren't engaged until you really need them - they probably won't be hit by cycling, but will be sporadically brought into play in football games, and you'll definitely want them for sprint drills. The overall volume of work done on your legs is also very important since you have to recover from it all. I know from my own experience that alot of leg work & alot of football can be pretty tough.

I would recommend that you cycle at a nice pace, nothing too quick. That should speed recovery by pumping a little blood through the sore muscles without working them too hard. Other things to bear in mind;
1] If the muscles are sore/damaged they can be quite carb resistant - so increase your intake of healthy fats.
2] Stretch them out - your muscles will try to repair themselves as economically as possible (as short as they can get away with) so maintain your flexibility.
3] Buy a foam roller and roll your legs around on it. OK it's a bit more specific than that - but not much
4] The body is pretty adaptable to training stresses, so if you've just started this programme then DOMS will be normal and will probably reduce after a while, if it's really bothering you then drop the workout volume a little. Maintain the weights (or increase them) but drop the number of sets and don't feel you need to burn out your legs completely to have done any work (i.e. NO burn-out sets etc.). As long as you're putting up numbers you're progressing & getting stronger.
5] Get some cozy-cushions and bang 'em in the microwave to heat up. Apply them to your quads (or whichever muscle group you want to work) and do some light stretching. The idea is to increase bloodflow to the muscles to speed recovery.

I have to say that in my own experience, nutrition is the single most important factor in improving recovery times, closely followed by training aclimatisiation. It's a pity you can't get 2 days off in a row, but that's life. I would point out that where most people don't have to worry too much about overtraining, you might - so if you honestly feel like you do not want to face the weights one week then back off that week and come back the stronger for it the next week.

joker77

Cheers for the post t-ha, interesting that you'd put a lot of it down to diet. I've been really trying to work on this over the last while, eating a lot of brown rice, fish, porridge, and having a protein shake before the cycle in the morning, post workout at lunch, pre cycle home, and before bed. I'm taking flaxseed oil at night before bed as well. How would you recomment I increase my intake of healthy fats? i.e. what foods should I be eating for this? With the amount of fish I eat, along with the flaxseed oil, and with porridge I put in a spoon of linseeds, I would have thought I'd have been getting enough...

Like you said, I'm going to keep up the squats for a few weeks to see do the legs adjust a bit, doing them on a Monday and not too heavy, I'll keep the cycling at a steady pace (although the way home is 6 miles uphill from town to Ballinteer... which involves a bit of grunt).

oh yea, excuse the noob - what does DOMS mean?

Dragan

DOMS = Delayed Onset Muscle Soreness .... basically the pain you feel after a workout, traditional at its height about 48 hours after the workout.

t-ha

Yeah, yet another acrynom that is used to make a simple concep sound more complicated - my favourite is NEPA (non-exercise physical activity).

joker your diet looks pretty good. Fish, nuts, flax & oil - I guess I can't really say anything except that maybe your recovery would be worse if your diet wasn't as good?!?

Patto

joker77 wrote:

Cheers for the post t-ha, interesting that you'd put a lot of it down to diet. I've been really trying to work on this over the last while, eating a lot of brown rice, fish, porridge, and having a protein shake before the cycle in the morning, post workout at lunch, pre cycle home, and before bed. I'm taking flaxseed oil at night before bed as well. How would you recomment I increase my intake of healthy fats? i.e. what foods should I be eating for this? With the amount of fish I eat, along with the flaxseed oil, and with porridge I put in a spoon of linseeds, I would have thought I'd have been getting enough...

Like you said, I'm going to keep up the squats for a few weeks to see do the legs adjust a bit, doing them on a Monday and not too heavy, I'll keep the cycling at a steady pace (although the way home is 6 miles uphill from town to Ballinteer... which involves a bit of grunt).

oh yea, excuse the noob - what does DOMS mean?

Your diet sounds good. If football is your main priority then I would cut out the cycling completely. IMO Cycling 12 miles a day will not aid your recovery. You are getting enough excersise from the gym and training. You get enough anaerobic endurance from the gym work and the football training you don't need to be doing any aerobic stuff.

Just as a matter of interest how many Cals do you consume in a day? I reckon if you are a big guy you should be looking at around 4500 or 5000? You must spend the whole day eating.

joker77

Patto wrote:

Your diet sounds good. If football is your main priority then I would cut out the cycling completely. IMO Cycling 12 miles a day will not aid your recovery. You are getting enough excersise from the gym and training. You get enough anaerobic endurance from the gym work and the football training you don't need to be doing any aerobic stuff.

Just as a matter of interest how many Cals do you consume in a day? I reckon if you are a big guy you should be looking at around 4500 or 5000? You must spend the whole day eating.

Cheers for that, cutting out cycling is not really an option at the moment, I take it you've never tried any other way to get from Ballinteer into town during rush hour! The only other way would be moped, I've been on one 3 times and crashed twice, nuff said!

In fairness, cycling has really helped my overall fitness for the football, I'm convinced it helps with the lungs, and toughens up the ankles/knees.

I'm 5' 10", just over 12st, so not really a big guy. I eat a reasonable amount, not too much, I'm trying to eat more after all the reading I've been doing on this forum! I've no idea how much in terms of calories though

t-ha

Dragan wrote:

In my opinion and from purely my own experience it works. I have successfully used coupling a weaker bodypart with a stronger on to harness some decent growth. It has worked for me so far for shoulders and biceps.

I think it's important that i stress that both the workouts for shoulders anc biceps were pretty standard for me, so that people can see it was not any new style of stimulus which brought about the growth, purely pairing the bodypart with legs was the ONLY change that was made and it worked for me.

Cheers Dragan - I may start doing some of that and see how it goes

joker77 wrote:

I'm trying to eat more after all the reading I've been doing on this forum! I've no idea how much in terms of calories though

Brings a tear to my eye

Patto

joker77 wrote:

Cheers for that, cutting out cycling is not really an option at the moment, I take it you've never tried any other way to get from Ballinteer into town during rush hour! The only other way would be moped, I've been on one 3 times and crashed twice, nuff said!

In fairness, cycling has really helped my overall fitness for the football, I'm convinced it helps with the lungs, and toughens up the ankles/knees.

I'm 5' 10", just over 12st, so not really a big guy. I eat a reasonable amount, not too much, I'm trying to eat more after all the reading I've been doing on this forum! I've no idea how much in terms of calories though

Doesn't the Luas run out to Ballinteer? Cycle down and leave the bike there for the day. I hope it has a few years on the clock and looking a little the worse for wear just so it will still be there when you come back in the evening.

I also cycle to work but its only about 2 miles. I wouldn't bother either if there was a better option. Espiceally on a Wednesday morning after legs in the gym on Monday and gut busting gaa training on a Tuesday.

As for the calories, today I tried working out how many I consume during the day using G'em link http://www.nutritiondata.com/
I previously worked out, from another one of G'em posts:p , that I need around 4000 for my height, weight and volume of excersise. (I'm 6'4, 16St btw). I worked out today that I only get about 3000 from my diet. Breaking down to 55% carb, 25% protein and 20% fats I'm quite shocked to be honest:eek: . Its strange since I have maintained the same weight for the past 3 months and lost a little bit of body fat. Maybe cycling onto the creatine about 8 weeks ago (retaining a bit of fluids etc) has skewed the figures a bit. Looks like I need to add another 2 protein shakes per day and more fats to my diet. Interesting stuff to say the least! Recommed you have a shot at this yourself.

joker77

Patto wrote:

Doesn't the Luas run out to Ballinteer? Cycle down and leave the bike there for the day. I hope it has a few years on the clock and looking a little the worse for wear just so it will still be there when you come back in the evening.

Nope, but it runs to Dundrum, which I could cycle to, but bought a new bike last month for 500 nicker, so eh no, won't be leavin it there for the day! Plus Stephen's green to the far side of the IFSC is a bit of a trek after getting off the Luas....

Cheers for the link to that site, will go have a look now and see if I can work out what I should be eating, compared to what I am! 6' 4" and 16st, jaysus Patto, wouldn't fancy having to mark you on a football pitch!

joker77

Patto wrote:

As for the calories, today I tried working out how many I consume during the day using G'em link http://www.nutritiondata.com/
I previously worked out, from another one of G'em posts:p , that I need around 4000 for my height, weight and volume of excersise. (I'm 6'4, 16St btw). I worked out today that I only get about 3000 from my diet. Breaking down to 55% carb, 25% protein and 20% fats I'm quite shocked to be honest:eek: . Its strange since I have maintained the same weight for the past 3 months and lost a little bit of body fat. Maybe cycling onto the creatine about 8 weeks ago (retaining a bit of fluids etc) has skewed the figures a bit. Looks like I need to add another 2 protein shakes per day and more fats to my diet. Interesting stuff to say the least! Recommed you have a shot at this yourself.

hmmm.... it reckons I need 4784... 28 yr old, 179cms, 172lbs, very active lifesyle. One or other of us is doing it wrong, probably me.... I work in stones and feet, not centimetres and pounds!

Patto

I used G'em's calculator for the 4000 total. Used the link http://www.nutritiondata.com/ and it calculated 4253. Jeasus, thats anotherv protein shake:rolleyes: I used 190cm, 101Kg, 30yr old.

joker77

My daily diet is giving me 4313 according to that, but I can't find the protein anywhere on that, of which I have 4 shakes, so that kind of balances out I'd say? How much calories is in a shake?

g'em

joker77 wrote:

How much calories is in a shake?

totally depends on the brand you're using- Pro X contains about 120 cals per 30g scoop, nutrisport has ~ 180 cals per 50g scoop but on average tehy all have about 4-5 cals per gram.

Patto

About 120Cals for 30g of whey Protein. You have a good balance there I would say.

g'em

Patto wrote:

I need around 4000 for my height, weight and volume of excersise. (I'm 6'4, 16St btw).

joker77 wrote:

it reckons I need 4784

first off, can I just say how totally and unbelievably jealous I am that you're allowed eat that much food in one day :mad:

I took a look at the nurition data website too and they're pretty decent for working out calorie needs per day (certainly easier than my maths!!). I tend to be quite conservative for working out these things- from a weight loss point of view the last thing I need is to overestimate my daily calorie allowance- I'd rather be conservative about my needs and eat something small and extra every few days to make up for any extra calories burnt during exercise.

If you do feel you need extra calories in your diet, a protein shake is one of the best ways to get them, or another lean source of protein - eating an extra slice of cake or a chocolate bar will just provide empty calories with no nutirional value.

joker77

It does seem like a lot I'm supposed to be eating alright, I'm hoping it goes in the right places and not just around the mid-section! :eek:

g'em - I'm already on 4 shakes a day - that sh*t is getting expensive

g'em

joker77 wrote:

g'em - I'm already on 4 shakes a day - that sh*t is getting expensive

how about eating eggs? make an omelette with 8-10 egg whites. one way or another its gonna cost ya eatin all that food. that's the only benefit of eating so little- I probably spend more on shampoo every week than I do on yummy stuff

Dragan

joker77 wrote:

g'em - I'm already on 4 shakes a day - that sh*t is getting expensive

Round steak and nuts man, kings of add a few more calories to any diet. Have eggs and oats for breakfast if you can as well, as this kinda free up the right to have another shake during the day should you need to.

If you feel like you need an extra boost, try this out

150ml skimmed milk
200ml water
40grams peanut butter
30 grams whey
20 grams oats
half a banana

this should provide you with about 45 grams of protein and 500 to 550 calories.


I won't even tell you guys how many calories i'm allowed to eat. snick snick snick.

temp_boards

Dragan wrote:

I won't even tell you guys how many calories i'm allowed to eat. snick snick snick.

High five*

joker77

big egg white omlette eh? interesting... might give that one a whirl!
Luckily brown rice and porridge oats aren't too expensive, the fresh fish + steak can be though.

Speaking of shampoo, was over in mates gaff at the weekend, he scared the pants off me - he was reading about the damage we're doing to ourselves with all the washing we do (western society that is), and I'm thinking f*ck, some days I have 4 showers (after cycle in, after gym, after cycle home, after training), and use shower gel each time, which is more or less just fairy liquid if you ask me....
Should probably start another thread for this one - advice on what to use in shower for the person who showers 3-4 times a day!?!

joker77

Dragan wrote:

150ml skimmed milk
200ml water
40grams peanut butter
30 grams whey
20 grams oats
half a banana

sheesh that sounds like some mass gainer smoothie alright!!! Will give it a whirl - before bedtime maybe?

Dragan

joker77 wrote:

sheesh that sounds like some mass gainer smoothie alright!!! Will give it a whirl - before bedtime maybe?

Hell no!!!! You take in anything like this before bed and the only thing you will get is fat, have a look at the post on macronutrient timing for more info.

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2054894123

I would suggest you get this bad boy in as your last meal before your workout, or if you want, first thing in the morning dude.

joker77

Was half joking there Dragan, gotcha!

Dragan

joker77 wrote:

Was half joking there Dragan, gotcha!

Thank Christ, i was worried there for a second man!!! :eek:

g'em

joker77 wrote:

Should probably start another thread for this one - advice on what to use in shower for the person who showers 3-4 times a day!?!

baby bath wash- no alcohol, won't dry the skin and women will feel compelled to mother you

g'em

Dragan wrote:

I won't even tell you guys how many calories i'm allowed to eat. snick snick snick.

yeah but you're...um... how do I say this politely... um big .. (in a very manly, I'm-a-bear kinda way..)

Dragan

g'em wrote:

yeah but you're...um... how do I say this politely... um big .. (in a very manly, I'm-a-bear kinda way..)

Your damn straight!!! It's crazy cuz even when i'm cutting i still get to down some serious calories. I love it!!!

This bear loves his pic-a-nic baskets.

Patto

g'em wrote:

first off, can I just say how totally and unbelievably jealous I am that you're allowed eat that much food in one day :mad:

I took a look at the nurition data website too and they're pretty decent for working out calorie needs per day (certainly easier than my maths!!). I tend to be quite conservative for working out these things- from a weight loss point of view the last thing I need is to overestimate my daily calorie allowance- I'd rather be conservative about my needs and eat something small and extra every few days to make up for any extra calories burnt during exercise.

If you do feel you need extra calories in your diet, a protein shake is one of the best ways to get them, or another lean source of protein - eating an extra slice of cake or a chocolate bar will just provide empty calories with no nutirional value.

Two interesting points here.
1. Don't be jealous G'em eating 4000Cal is one big heap of food. I already buy 3 whole Chickens in my weekly shop and today I find out I need more:eek: Just imagine I were living off the land in the west of Ireland. You'd need two or three acres just for the chickens, jeasus the neighbous would think you were off your bloody rockers goin out killin 4 or 5 'em every week:). What would you do with all the eggs? Sell em to the Dragan I suppose:rolleyes:
2. Interesting point you make about running a cal deficit and still getting stronger. Seems I have also been running a cal deficit (unknown to myself) and have also still been getting stronger (certainly not bigger though). How can this be? Am I just deluding myself?:(

Dragan

Patto wrote:

2. Interesting point you make about running a cal deficit and still getting stronger. Seems I have also been running a cal deficit (unknown to myself) and have also still been getting stronger (certainly not bigger though). How can this be? Am I just deluding myself?:(

Not at all, i consistently add strenght and even some muscle size when i am on a cutting phase, but how can this be???

Simply, once again timing comes into play. If you are given the body the right foods at the right times and it is utilising these fully, then there is no reason why you should not make some sort of advancements. Remember, the body is hugely complex and the whole "eat so much calories to grow" is really just a guide more so than anything. There are no laws written in stone when it comes to different people and how they react!!!

Remember, ideally you should be getting in X amount of food to maximise your gains, but, thats not to say if you fall short then you will not make ANY gains, just that they may be limited.

As such, it would seem that if you up your calories from protein and healthy fats it would seem that you will make quicker gains!

Remember, many different things affect how people grow, including GH and test levels and either of yours could be quite high which which would also explained your growth on a "restricted" diet.

Remember, the right foods at the right times goes a long way!!

No then, how much for them eggs?

g'em

Patto wrote:

What would you do with all the eggs? Sell em to the Dragan I suppose:rolleyes:

Patto wrote:

Interesting point you make about running a cal deficit and still getting stronger. Seems I have also been running a cal deficit (unknown to myself) and have also still been getting stronger (certainly not bigger though). How can this be? Am I just deluding myself?:(

For me anyway, even though I've reduced my calories, the food I'm obtaining those calories from are good ones, high in protein, moderate carbs and good fats. So even though technically I'm eating less calorie wise, my portion sizes are probably a bit bigger, and what I do eat gets utilised by my body for muscle as I train so much. Probably the same case for anyone here who's overhauled their diet and started to workout. There's a big difference between eating a plate of pizza and a plate of chicken salad with nuts

Patto

Thanks again Dragan and G'em! Excuse the pun but (as usual) plenty of food for thought there:o

poobum

depends on the shake and the milk or whatever its mixed with! whether its home made or powder!