Serious Questions

Vainglory

Apologies for another thread on this but I believe there have been such scurrilous things said about Enda on the countless threads which vilify him that he deserves some semblance of a defence.

I would like to know, quite specifically, what reasons anyone has for believing that Enda knew anything about what the member of the campaign team did on Thursday.

Past behaviour? No.
Any circumstantial evidence whatsoever? No.
Even a scrap of evidence? No.

I would really like people to provide me with their reasons for assuming Enda is lying. Of course the buck stops with the candidate for the actions of the campaign team. This is why Enda has been punished, more heavily than any other candidate in the history of sabbatical elections. But who honestly thinks that he should be thrown out for something he knew nothing about? And if you choose to believe that he did, then that's your choice, but people who know Enda at all will know that is not the case. Again, people saying he knew about it are making that judgement based on nothing but their own unfounded suspicion. Please provide me with some sort of base for your allegations.

At the meeting with the Returning Officers on Saturday, I was present along with Dermot and Enda. Ray Rowan (Dan's campaign manager) quite specifically said at this meeting that he did not think any of the three of us had prior knowledge of Thursday night's events, and that he knew we "wouldn't do it". This can be confirmed by other people present at the meeting, eg Barry Colfer and Gavin Reilly. Ray has since changed his tune in what is a disgusting attempt at intimidation.

Why is it not plausible that someone got drunk and did an idiotic, inexcusable thing? Can ANYONE reading this thread say they have never done something highly stupid while drunk that they regretted afterwards? Why must everyone immediately start calling Enda a "dirty, cheating lefty" (which by the way is a disgraceful comment and should be immediately removed).

The perpetrator of the rip on Thursday night was dismissed from the campaign team yesterday evening. I would also like to stress that people talking about "members" of our campaign team doing rips are also making completely baseless accusations founded on nothing except their own misinformation.

Enda's posters have also been methodically ripped, especially from the concourse and Vet. We are in the process of having CCTV footage from the concourse checked. Be assured that there are no angels here. These posters do not rip themselves. Because one person from one team has been caught, this does not mean that we have not been equally targeted.

Ray, claiming that 250 posters were ripped is so absurd that it is laughable. I would invite anyone to stand at Dan Hayden's stand in the Arts block and count how many posters of his are within sight. There are at least 35 in the Arts block alone, while Ray's claim that 250 were ripped would necessitate there only to be 50 left all over campus. Anyone with a pair of eyes can see that this is not the case.

I would like to categorically state that I have never in my life been so disgusted with the behaviour of certain individuals who know exactly who they are.

The_Minister

The reason few people seem to believe that it was one drunken prat is that apparently ladders would be needed to take down many, and also someone said that the numbers of ripped posters needed a large number of people operating.

I'm pretty sure that he has been punished "more heavily than any other candidate in the history of the Sabbatical elections" is because no other candidate (i'm told) ever stooped this low. (assuming he is responsible for his team)

You say that the perp was dismissed "yesterday evening". Why wait so long after the deed? Feeling the heat?

Stabshauptmann

The systmatic manner and preperation.
The lack of an appology and the irony of Endas statements about what he would do if it happened to him.
That Enda hasnt [edit] publically [/edit] dissassociated himself from said sad pathetic scum wad [edit]and that it took so long for him to o anything[/edit]

Vainglory

"Apparently" and "someone said" just don't cut it when allegations of this sort are being made. Dan showed quite a lengthly slide show of poster remains to the meeting and absolutely none of the pictures showed any remains of posters that would have necessitated ladders to pull down. In fact, every single poster I saw of Dan's on Friday morning were ones that would have necessitated ladders to reach but had not been pulled down. Dan had no backing boards up on Thursday night when the incident took place so these could not have been pulled down and would not have necessitated any ladder.

The decision was made last night, about 24 hours after we had been made aware of this person's actions. Given the amount of stuff going on in that 24 hours and the fact that this person is a close personal friend of all of ours it was not an easy decision to make but it was the right one.

Pythia

Vainglory wrote:

Etc

Jane, are you part of Enda's campaign team, or helping him by any chance?

Vainglory

Kaptain Redeye wrote:

The systmatic manner and preperation.
The lack of an appology and the irony of Endas statements about what he would do if it happened to him.
That Enda hasnt [edit] publically [/edit] dissassociated himself from said sad pathetic scum wad [edit]and that it took so long for him to o anything[/edit]

Re : Systematic etc - Yes it was systematic and inexcusable on the part of the perpetrator but how does this prove Enda's involvement, or even suggest it?

Re : Apology - At the meeting on Saturday profuse apologies were offered on behalf of the member of the campaign team and from Enda directly for his campaigner's actions. This can be confirmed by anyone who was there.

Re : Irony - Enda said that he thinks poster ripping is disgraceful and he still does. I don't understand how him saying this proves his involvement at all?

Re : Disassociation - This all happened over the weekend and as soon as the Returning Officer arrived in his office this morning he was informed by both ourselves and by the person involved that the perpetrator had been dismissed from the campaign team with immediate effect.

Vainglory

Pythia wrote:

Jane, are you part of Enda's campaign team, or helping him by any chance?

Yes of course, I've never denied that. I think it's been quite clear actually. Panda is part of Dan's campaign team and is helping him, she is allowed to post on the topic. Is there some reason why I can't?

Pythia

Just clarifying.

Stabshauptmann

Thanks jane, once again you've dispelled another myth about union politics.
Voting Duffey is now back on the cards

Stabshauptmann

Vainglory wrote:

I would really like people to provide me with their reasons for assuming Enda is lying.... but people who know Enda at all will know that is not the case......

At the meeting with the Returning Officers on Saturday, I was present along with Dermot and Enda. Ray Rowan (Dan's campaign manager) quite specifically said at this meeting that he did not think any of the three of us had prior knowledge of Thursday night's events, and that he knew we "wouldn't do it".

"Yes of course, I've never denied that. I think it's been quite clear actually."

Crystal.

"Panda is part of Dan's campaign team and is helping him, she is allowed to post on the topic. Is there some reason why I can't?"

Actually, though Panda is obviously pro Dan, I didnt realise she was officially part of his campaign team.

Pythia, have you ever been rep, wanted to be rep, or associated in RL with any union person?

Vainglory

One more thing..

I don't think anyone would disagree that checking of all CCTV footage around campus from the time before and after the footage in the Computer Science building was taken would finally lay to rest all the rumours about whether the offender was on his own or not/whether ladders were used/whether transport was used to take away posters.

It should be noted that from the moment we found out about this on Saturday, we have been pressing the Returning Officer to make use of this CCTV footage to dispel these rumours once and for all (that is all they are at the moment, rumours). I fail to understand why such a simple method of checking has not yet been used but certain people, including (appallingly) the "impartial" Returning Officer himself, have been allowed to continue making these allegations while ignoring the only possible method of proof.

The offending ex-member of the campaign team has also maintained to us throughout that nobody else accompanied him, that he used no ladders etc. He is the most vocal person calling for the CCTV footage to be checked. Wouldn't it be a little stupid, if you knew the footage would reveal that you were lying, to repeatedly ask for it to be used? Aside from anything else, it would mean he would be proven to have lied to us and would make his already uncomfortable position even more untenable.

Vainglory

Kaptain Redeye wrote:

Actually, though Panda is obviously pro Dan, I didnt realise she was officially part of his campaign team.

I've seen Panda at quite a few of Dan's campaign meetings, I think she'd confirm that herself.

Vainglory

Three posts in a row, ugh.

Without agenda, or hope of changing people's minds, I just wish that everyone would stop, take a step back, and imagine how they would feel if they were accused of something incredibly damaging to their reputation without any proof at all. The phrase "innocent until proven guilty" also stands for issues concerning sabbatical elections in UCD.

I am aware first-hand of the hurt and upset this has caused Enda and people close to him. It it so horrific to be accused of something and have it presented as fact by so many people when you are completely innocent and there is no evidence against you.

It is indeed so horrific that I am being completely honest when I say that no matter what people on these boards have said about him, I sincerely hope it never happens to any of you and you never have to experience what we are experiencing first-hand. Nobody deserves it.

Pythia

Kaptain Redeye wrote:

Pythia, have you ever been rep, wanted to be rep, or associated in RL with any union person?

I certainly try not to.

Stabshauptmann

thats not an answer. Are you friends in RL with anyone associated with the union? Friends of friends even?

Pythia

Kaptain Redeye wrote:

thats not an answer. Are you friends in RL with anyone associated with the union? Friends of friends even?

STFU tbh.
And actually, I don't think so.

Economaniac!

sorry, but being totally lazy at not going to these meetings, but as these are public boards and as my vote in these elections is worth the same as anybody else in the SU, can someone lay down the facts of what has happened over the last few days? preferably impartially? and what happened at this meeting, and what punishment was handed down to Mr. Duffy. I think my vote deserves the information. If it has been discussed elsewhere on these boards, again, excuse my ignorance.

Stabshauptmann

Pythia wrote:

STFU tbh.

Whats with the personal abuse?
You're big on "outing" people, even when its painfully obvious and especially when its irrelevent.
Now as you pointed out, its the rules of the forum, and why should you be exempt. Especially when you are such a keen advocate?

humbert

I don’t think interrogating pythia about any contact she has with the union is particularly constructive as she’s obviously speaking from a personal point of view and with no hidden agenda.

Chinafoot

Pythia, unnecessary response. Kaptain Redeye she's answered your question now so leave it alone or else take it to PM.

Vainglory, I think that Kaptain Redeye pretty much sums it up.

kaptain redeye wrote:

The systmatic manner and preperation.
The lack of an appology and the irony of Endas statements about what he would do if it happened to him.
That Enda hasnt [edit] publically [/edit] dissassociated himself from said sad pathetic scum wad [edit]and that it took so long for him to o anything[/edit]

Not everyone is assuming that Enda knew about it.

Vainglory wrote:

Mods?

There is a 'report post' function.

Also, panda....can you let us know if you are directly involved in Dan's campaign.

Stabshauptmann

I just thought it strange that being a member of young fine gael and your self proclaimed ability to "out" people that you surely must know people involved in the union.

Vainglory

Economaniac! wrote:

sorry, but being totally lazy at not going to these meetings, but as these are public boards and as my vote in these elections is worth the same as anybody else in the SU, can someone lay down the facts of what has happened over the last few days? preferably impartially? and what happened at this meeting, and what punishment was handed down to Mr. Duffy. I think my vote deserves the information. If it has been discussed elsewhere on these boards, again, excuse my ignorance.

As briefly as I can...

On Thursday evening a member of Enda Duffy's campaign team ripped a number of Dan Hayden's posters from several areas around campus and was caught doing this on CCTV in the Computer Science building.

At a subsequent meeting between all presidential candidates, their campaign managers and the Returning Officers it was maintained by Enda that he had no prior knowledge of these actions and thoroughly condemned them. Ray Rowan, Dan's campaign manager, gave his own opinion that neither myself or Dermot as co-campaign managers, or Enda as the candidate, had any prior knowledge of the actions. (This is recorded and confirmed in the Returning Officers' report to the IAB concerning the events at the meeting)

Enda was then fined 150 posters and 2000 flyers for the actions of his campaign team member, who he then dismissed.

Stabshauptmann

peachypants wrote:

Vainglory, I think that Kaptain Redeye pretty much sums it up.

well, evidently, Enda did dismiss the person and appologise
But should enda make a public appollogy? And why isnt the fact (if it is a fact) that endas poster were torn down not also widely known?

Chinafoot

Aye, I know. I was merely answering her question in relation to people's responses on this forum. Posters here were going on the information that was provided.

To be honest I am so unbelievably sick of this crap. Its getting ridiculous.

Stabshauptmann

and on that note, goodnight.
A UCD IRC channel would be so useful (everyone rushes out to start one so they can be mod, only to realise IRC is blocked in UCD)

Vainglory

I'm not sure how he could make a public apology, aside from standing on the top of the arts block and shouting. There are no papers out until after the election. Not enough people read boards or ucdsu.net. He's also incredibly busy and under pressure trying to defend himself against all these allegations.

Open to suggestions though.

As for why it isn't widely known about our posters; simple fact is that nobody has been caught for doing it. However, I do have numerous pictures in my phone of our sabotaged posters and if anyone wants me to send them on just PM me your number...obviously it'll go no further.

Chinafoot

Vainglory wrote:

Not enough people read boards or ucdsu.net.

Exactly....so can we please leave it alone now?

Vainglory

I can't find that "report post" function. Actually I can't even remember which thread that comment was on :S

Red Alert

i believe campaigning should be stopped at this point. whether or not Enda has done wrong is becoming less and less the issue. the election has now descended into a farce of simplistic thuggery.

the longer this goes on, the less the pros/cons of each candidate can be debated since the poster-ripping is grabbing the most airtime. the question also arises as to whether members of Dan or Orla's team were involved in a smear-campaign act against Enda, or indeed vice versa.

(for the record, my vote is/was for Enda given his interest in the anti-rip-off movement. I had once toyed with the idea of Orla Ni Threasaigh but I can't really see what she has going for her anymore. I currently don't know very much about Dan other than that he's been a solid performer, i'm sure he'd be a good guy too. the moment it's a toss up for Enda/Dan.)

as a result of what's been said around college, Enda has now received trial by media and general populace. he's not going to be treated fairly now, which is very sad indeed. if he was guilty he should have taken his punishment or else bowed out. if he was innocent then he's been seriously hard done by. (i don't agree for that matter that this board should come under any more censorship than the locked topic the last day and I would strongly argue against any control on electoral matters being discussed).

other than the fact of whether he's guilty or not, the behaviour of all three candidates now means that a fair and serious election can't take place. i propose that all three candidates would voluntarily stand down and we'd take it from last wednesday again. i know people in both Enda and Dan's camp. Panda's a very honest and trustworthy friend in the short time I've known her IRL. I don't always see eye to eye with Vainglory, but I would hope she has brought her Welfare experience with her into the election too. my point being that good people are getting caught up in this shambles to the detriment of getting on with the election and campaigning.

Pythia

Kaptain Redeye wrote:

I just thought it strange that being a member of young fine gael and your self proclaimed ability to "out" people that you surely must know people involved in the union.

YFG aren't very involved in the Union. No one from committee is on the SU AFAIK.
One guy from YFG was Deputy a few years ago, but he has since joined Labour.

Chinafoot

Vainglory wrote:

I can't find that "report post" function. Actually I can't even remember which thread that comment was on :S

Do you see the little thingy to the left that looks like a road sign? If you click on that I get the reported post.

Anyway, thanks for clearing that stuff up.

I have no intention of imposing any "censorship" on this and I've said that I encourage discussion of the policies and issues instead of out-right attacks on people.

kittenkiller

I would have serious doubts that Enda Duffy would be stupid enough to knowingly allow one of his representatives sabbotage HIS campaign by openly showing such pettiness towards the other candidates!

Although his campaigners are representing him, he cannot control their actions & should not have to completely jeopardise his campaign by announcing to all who can hear, an embarrassing situation that has been rectified for all entents & purposes.
That'd be just plain stupid!

The matter has been rectified & Mr. Duffy has been duely punished for the actions of an ex- member of his team.

Leave it to rest.
Most of us have over-zealous friends who act in what they consider our best interests from time to time!

Vainglory

Pythia wrote:

YFG aren't very involved in the Union. No one from committee is on the SU AFAIK.
One guy from YFG was Deputy a few years ago, but he has since joined Labour.

Who's that?

arbeitsscheuer

kittenkiller wrote:

The matter has been rectified & Mr. Duffy has been duely punished for the actions of an ex- member of his team.

Leave it to rest.
Most of us have over-zealous friends who act in what they consider our best interests from time to time!

Bingo.

Well that was one helluva palaver, wasn't it? Glad we got that cr*p outta the way...

Anyway, where was I... Oh yes.

VOTE DUFFY!:D

Red Alert

i wish to clarify a point in my last post: i have no problem with any decision made by peachy with regard to locking or not locking threads about alleged SU electoral offenses.

my point was merely that this stuff will continue and I would hate to see it descend such that this stuff could no longer be discussed. if this were to happen it would be the warring parties fault, not whoever happens to impose such a rule.

xeduCat

Vainglory wrote:

Who's that?

(cough) Ross Higgins (/cough)

The_Minister

Can anyone clarify how many posters were torn down? I have heard hundreds and I heard 2.

Vainglory

No official number has been given.

The person who tore them down claims it was in or around 60. Dan Hayden's team claim it was 250, which would leave them with 50 left...as I said already, anyone who thinks that Dan only has 50 posters up around campus at the moment is entirely out of their mind. There are 35 in the Arts block alone.

Of our posters, approximately 50 have been torn down. I've been trying to upload pictures but I don't know how to. Bird flu is making me stupid.

Red Alert

try putting them on your bebo... while it's still there

Chinafoot

Red Alert wrote:

i wish to clarify a point in my last post: i have no problem with any decision made by peachy with regard to locking or not locking threads about alleged SU electoral offenses.

my point was merely that this stuff will continue and I would hate to see it descend such that this stuff could no longer be discussed. if this were to happen it would be the warring parties fault, not whoever happens to impose such a rule.

Just wanted to comment on this. When I locked the thread my post said "I'm locking this until we know exactly what happened" purely to prevent out right attacks on enda duffy. I was then assured by singingstranger that everything he posted was what happened at that meeting. Therefore I opened the thread and edited my post.

Anyway, as I've said numerous times I have absolutely no problem with people discussing the elections....what I do have a problem with is attacks on those candidates involved.

Thats all.

The_Minister

Vainglory wrote:

The person who tore them down claims it was in or around 60.

That WOMAN (not you) she said it was just two. That no good lying lefty! (even though she seems very nice)

Vainglory

I don't know who would say it was just two because everyone on our team knows it was more than that. Apologies anyway. I've always been honest about the number (unlike people who claim 250). Heh.

The_Minister

Vainglory wrote:

I don't know who would say it was just two because everyone on our team knows it was more than that. Apologies anyway. I've always been honest about the number (unlike people who claim 250). Heh.

No need for apologies it wasn't you who lied to me.

(Before anyone asks I can't give a link because this was in the real world)

The_Minister

By the way where is the L&H hustings on again?

anonymous_joe

You've caused enough trouble already...

Vainglory

Theatre Q. If you see the person who told you it was 2 posters will you point her out to me?

The_Minister

Vainglory wrote:

Theatre Q. If you see the person who told you it was 2 posters will you point her out to me?

Lets just say you would know her already and she is on boards. Also see would be much more visable around campus recently.



Thank you for the info.

Vainglory

I really don't know who you mean. Can you PM?

The_Minister

Vainglory wrote:

I really don't know who you mean. Can you PM?

I'm going to talk to her first.

Vainglory

Ok.

In an interesting development, I have just learned that Enda's poster in the Comp Sci building was ripped last night, and this is covered by the same CCTV as from last Thursday.

Vainglory

Wait..I think I know who you mean..and in fairness she isn't on the campaign team, she has her own campaign to run