CIE Union - Impossibility of Modern Public Transport Services Under their Control

Transport21 Fan

Spencer Dock all out "Stress" strike getting close and closer...

DART services disrupted by unofficial strike
27/02/2006 - 13:56:28

Commuters in Dublin have been warned to expect disruption this afternoon as a result of unofficial strike action by a number of DART drivers.

Iarnród Éireann said the action would cause disruption to some DART services, but the vast majority should still be operating as normal.

The unofficial action has been mounted by a number of drivers as part of a dispute over rostering.

BendiBus

An unofficial strike means it is not called by the unions. You should change the thread title or risk losing any credibility you might have (if any).

Transport21 Fan

"Credibility"? I remember this the next time CIE staff are walking off the job in the middle of the afternnon to join the Irish Ferries Anti-Immigrant March and still fill in their time sheets as normal.

I had no idea that internet message board were the place were multi-billion Irish public transport development plans were formulated and implemented and were industrial relations were resolved. Forgive me for being naive.:rolleyes:

BendiBus

Ahem, I just pointed out that this is an unofficial strike, yet you are blaming the union in the thread title.

Transport21 Fan

Com'on Bendi, it was reported that members of both SIPTU and NBRU (21 drivers in total - hardly one or two unstable individuals in an infantile huff) refused to work over rosters. Now fair play to the ones who did go to work and ignored these selfish babymen - but when it comes to pay raises and promotions, the CIE 1970's union culture demands that all drivers regardless of behaviour and performance are equally rewarded.

This bizzare union sense of equality only results in the good workers being forgotton and the muppets beings rewarded no matter what. Yes, it was an unoffical strike, but as any objective observer will accept it is part of an on-going mentality within the CIE unions which represents a major roadblock to public transport development in Ireland.

As soon as there is a minor issue, they stop work and the general public who pay their wages are screwed - unoffical or not. This is unacceptable and destroys confidence in public transport. This carry on has to stop.

shltter

Transport21 Fan wrote:

"Credibility"? I remember this the next time CIE staff are walking off the job in the middle of the afternnon to join the Irish Ferries Anti-Immigrant March and still fill in their time sheets as normal.
:

First the march was in support of Irish Ferries workers and was not an Anti immigrant march

What CIE staff are you refering to that filled in time sheets.

I work for CIE and I dont fill in any time sheets and I was not paid nor did I want to be paid for attending the march in support of Irish ferries workers nor were any of my colleagues. But we are not selfish bastards and we were willing to forgo a half days wages to lend our support to workers who were being treated disgracefuly.


Now instead of Blaming IE unions for what is an unofficial strike perhaps you might ask why IE management reneged on a deal that no changes would be made in advance of a meeting this thursday and implemented the changes in advance of the meeting.

markpb

shltter wrote:

Now instead of blaming IE unions for what is an unofficial strike perhaps you might ask why IE management reneged on a deal that no changes would be made in advance of a meeting this thursday and implemented the changes in advance of the meeting.

Maybe IE were in the wrong but did that give the drivers the right to walk off and inconvenience thousands of people? Are relations so bad in IE (particularly) that the first reaction to anything negative is a strike? Don't those people understand that there are other ways to resolve a dispute other than messing around with peoples lives.

shltter

markpb wrote:

Maybe IE were in the wrong but did that give the drivers the right to walk off and inconvenience thousands of people? Are relations so bad in IE (particularly) that the first reaction to anything negative is a strike? Don't those people understand that there are other ways to resolve a dispute other than messing around with peoples lives.

No it does not but this is an unofficial action and the title of the thread is blaming the CIE unions

Usually in my experience when things like this happen it is a build up of different things and this issue is the straw that broke the camels back.

However I don't know about the details of this case

D'Peoples Voice

shltter wrote:

No it does not but this is an unofficial action and the title of the thread is blaming the CIE unions

Did the spokesperson for the Union(s) come out and CONDEMN those who went on unofficial strike?

markpb

shltter wrote:

Usually in my experience when things like this happen it is a build up of different things and this issue is the straw that broke the camels back.

Surely there are ways and means of solving those problems without walking out? DB drivers always seem to let people know there are relations problems, participate in talks, etc and strike as a last resort. I'm not saying the DB union are perfect but their attitude is much better than that of the IR union. The first any member of the public knows of a problem is when their train doesn't show up.

I, for one, would love to see something along the lines of New Yorks Taylors Law introduced in Ireland along with a clearly defined path of escalation in the event of a conflict. Walking out leaving the public stranded should never be the first course of action. I know people will say its open to abuse but it happens here already (with the gardai) and in other countries and no-one has died from overwork yet ;-)

daymobrew

shltter wrote:

What CIE staff are you refering to that filled in time sheets.

I work for CIE and I dont fill in any time sheets and I was not paid nor did I want to be paid for attending the march in support of Irish ferries workers nor were any of my colleagues. But we are not selfish bastards and we were willing to forgo a half days wages to lend our support to workers who were being treated disgracefuly.

A friend of mine works out of Kent Station in Cork. He described how a few of his colleagues filled in their time sheets fraudulently, including someone there who is quite senior in a union.

I'm glad to read about your honesty.

Transport21 Fan

"I work for CIE"

Why of course you are my dear shltter.

I stopped buying Viz since I started reading Liberty as it is much more halarious. In this current issue is an article slamming the FG bus privatisation plan and the whole thrust of the article is how protection of CIE jobs is the only agenda in public transport in Ireland.

CIE unions simply have no idea they are involved in public transport.

shltter

daymobrew wrote:

A friend of mine works out of Kent Station in Cork. He described how a few of his colleagues filled in their time sheets fraudulently, including someone there who is quite senior in a union.

I'm glad to read about your honesty.

A couple of years ago a whole group of DB inspectors were sacked for wrongly filling in time sheets.

If the company find anyone who did this then they will be sacked it is stealing.

shltter

Transport21 Fan wrote:

"I work for CIE"

Why of course you are my dear shltter.

I stopped buying Viz since I started reading Liberty as it is much more halarious. In this current issue is an article slamming the FG bus privatisation plan and the whole thrust of the article is how protection of CIE jobs is the only agenda in public transport in Ireland.

CIE unions simply have no idea they are involved in public transport.

I said I work for CIE

Liberty has nothing to do with it it is the newspaper of a Trade Union with 250,000 members in thousands of companies across the country.


FGs proposals are the usual populist crap that comes from the blueshirts that they drop as soon as they get their bums on seats.

Now unless you are in a position to publish or link to the article that you are talking about STFU as your word on an article you claim to have read carries no weight.

shltter

D'Peoples Voice wrote:

Did the spokesperson for the Union(s) come out and CONDEMN those who went on unofficial strike?

How the **** would I know why don't you ask them and what difference would it make if they did or not. Why do people have this obbsession with condemnation like it solves everything

shltter

markpb wrote:

Surely there are ways and means of solving those problems without walking out? DB drivers always seem to let people know there are relations problems, participate in talks, etc and strike as a last resort. I'm not saying the DB union are perfect but their attitude is much better than that of the IR union. The first any member of the public knows of a problem is when their train doesn't show up.

I, for one, would love to see something along the lines of New Yorks Taylors Law introduced in Ireland along with a clearly defined path of escalation in the event of a conflict. Walking out leaving the public stranded should never be the first course of action. I know people will say its open to abuse but it happens here already (with the gardai) and in other countries and no-one has died from overwork yet ;-)

As I said I don't know the full story but my understanding is that IE management reneged on an agreement not to change rostering arrangements and went ahead and changed them yesterday and that the drivers affected refused to operate the new roster.
So it was not something that was building up as such.

I have to disagree with you on Taylors law it is a basic fundamental Human right to be able to withdraw your labour when in dispute when an employer.
The experience is that when employers know that employees can not withdraw their labour then the impetus to negotiate with employees is greatly reduced.
Even in this country if you look at for example Nurses who although they were not barred from striking never had the employers basically treated the nurses very shoddily based on the expectation that nurses would not strike.


I agree with you on escalation procedures and they do in general exist in this country but unfortunately when management as it exists in IE take hard nosed decisions and renege on agreements then Unofficial action happens no matter what the unions say.
JUst to mention if IE believe that any of the unions instigated the Unofficial action then they can go to the High court and get an order against the those unions to recover costs.
The company can also persue individual employees for costs because of unofficial action.





Just to add I believe that Dart drivers turned up to work their normal rosters and were prevented so that their position would be that they did not strike that they made themselves available for their "normal agreed" days work and were prevented from working normally

markpb

shltter wrote:

I have to disagree with you on Taylors law it is a basic fundamental human right to be able to withdraw your labour when in dispute when an employer.

I have to disagree with you, its a right that we (as a nation) adopted a long time ago to stop employers mistreating their staff. Since then we've enacted a huge range of legislation (both national and EU) to protect employees and its less necessary to be able to strike. It's only in the civil service and old/established companies where unions think that striking is their only option.

shltter wrote:

Just to add I believe that Dart drivers turned up to work their normal rosters and were prevented so that their position would be that they did not strike that they made themselves available for their "normal agreed" days work and were prevented from working normally

What prevented the workers doing the new rosters and starting the employee dispute process? Why were they forced to sit around doing nothing inconveniencing thousands?

daymobrew

shltter wrote:

As I said I don't know the full story but my understanding is that IE management reneged on an agreement not to change rostering arrangements and went ahead and changed them yesterday and that the drivers affected refused to operate the new roster.

Are you in a position to explain the type of changes between the new and old roster? What was so different for 21 drivers to disrupt the travel of so many people?

shltter wrote:

I have to disagree with you on Taylors law it is a basic fundamental Human right to be able to withdraw your labour when in dispute when an employer.

I think that many people are fed up with the frequency of strikes by unions in Ireland. I feel that the right to strike is being abused.

The company can also persue individual employees for costs because of unofficial action.

These individuals should be severely disciplined. I've emailed SIPTU and NRBU to ask if these employees will be disciplined by them or IE.

shltter

markpb wrote:

I have to disagree with you, its a right that we (as a nation) adopted a long time ago to stop employers mistreating their staff. Since then we've enacted a huge range of legislation (both national and EU) to protect employees and its less necessary to be able to strike. It's only in the civil service and old/established companies where unions think that striking is their only option.?

No striking is not the only option but it has to be an option and talk of legislation in a country that has 30 labour inspectors with 2 million employees is frankly daft.
Do you have any idea how long it takes to get to the Labour court or to a rights commisioner or indeed to get a HSA inspector out.

markpb wrote:

What prevented the workers doing the new rosters and starting the employee dispute process? Why were they forced to sit around doing nothing inconveniencing thousands?

THe reverse what prevented IE from working agreed rosters till new agreed rosters were in place
As I have said this things are usually a build up of numerous events this being the straw that breaks the camels back on its own it would probably have been worked out

shltter

daymobrew wrote:

Are you in a position to explain the type of changes between the new and old roster? What was so different for 21 drivers to disrupt the travel of so many people?.

No

daymobrew wrote:

I think that many people are fed up with the frequency of strikes by unions in Ireland. I feel that the right to strike is being abused..

I disagree I think that the unions work hard to ensure the vast vast majority of disputes never get as far as industrial action the figures on days lost due to industrial action bear this out

daymobrew wrote:

These individuals should be severely disciplined. I've emailed SIPTU and NRBU to ask if these employees will be disciplined by them or IE.

It is up to the employer to seek restitution if they feel they have a case as I have said I believe the employees would argue that they were available for work but were prevented from doing it by the employer if IE feels they have a case I am sure they will instigate proceedings

shoegirl

shltter wrote:

Liberty has nothing to do with it it is the newspaper of a Trade Union with 250,000 members in thousands of companies across the country.

. . . Who of course care so much about the other million or so workers not represented by trade unions that we've been hung out to dry by you guys for the last 10 years . . .

shoegirl

I am a regular user of the Cork/Cobh line and am shocked by not only how poor the quality of service is, but the fact that those in Midleton, Carraigtohill and Youghal are so excited about being able to join in the litany of misery that is the Cobh - Cork commute.

Cancelled trains leaving commuters totally stranded. Wildcat strikes. Trains that are virtually empty at rush hour simply because the service is so unreliable. 30 minute late trains with no excuse. A new time zone which I've christened "CIE time" which happens +/-20 minutes either way of the actual time. Ludicrous queues at busy times as there is rarely more than 1 person serving customers. (I've seen queues of up to 40 people at Kent station - though admittedly the new ticket machines alleviated some of this). And fares that continue to go up and up despite a pathetic level of service.

This morning I had yet another experience of a cancellation. And on this route a replacement bus service is an almost unknown luxury. After waiting on a freezing platform since 08:15 you are told that the next train is at 09:44! By a disembodied voice of course. If I ever get my hands on the retarded female who owns that disembodied voice I will probably have to restrain myself from strangling her. No replacement bus? So if you left home at 08:05 for a 9 o clock start you'll be lucky to get to work by 10:00.

Do CIE staff get "benchmarking"? I should hope not after the appalling treatment which I as a customer am shat at by CIE staff.

shltter

shoegirl wrote:

. . . Who of course care so much about the other million or so workers not represented by trade unions that we've been hung out to dry by you guys for the last 10 years . . .

Well I am not a member of that trade Union but if you feel you are being hung out to dry by anyone Join a Union and fight your own corner.

What do you want the people who could be bothered organising to fight your corner for you

shltter

shoegirl wrote:

I am a regular user of the Cork/Cobh line and am shocked by not only how poor the quality of service is, but the fact that those in Midleton, Carraigtohill and Youghal are so excited about being able to join in the litany of misery that is the Cobh - Cork commute.

Cancelled trains leaving commuters totally stranded. Wildcat strikes. Trains that are virtually empty at rush hour simply because the service is so unreliable. 30 minute late trains with no excuse. A new time zone which I've christened "CIE time" which happens +/-20 minutes either way of the actual time. Ludicrous queues at busy times as there is rarely more than 1 person serving customers. (I've seen queues of up to 40 people at Kent station - though admittedly the new ticket machines alleviated some of this). And fares that continue to go up and up despite a pathetic level of service.

This morning I had yet another experience of a cancellation. And on this route a replacement bus service is an almost unknown luxury. After waiting on a freezing platform since 08:15 you are told that the next train is at 09:44! By a disembodied voice of course. If I ever get my hands on the retarded female who owns that disembodied voice I will probably have to restrain myself from strangling her. No replacement bus? So if you left home at 08:05 for a 9 o clock start you'll be lucky to get to work by 10:00.

Do CIE staff get "benchmarking"? I should hope not after the appalling treatment which I as a customer am shat at by CIE staff.

No CIE staff are not part of the benchmarking process

murphaph

shoegirl wrote:

I am a regular user of the Cork/Cobh line and am shocked by not only how poor the quality of service is, but the fact that those in Midleton, Carraigtohill and Youghal are so excited about being able to join in the litany of misery that is the Cobh - Cork commute.

Cancelled trains leaving commuters totally stranded. Wildcat strikes. Trains that are virtually empty at rush hour simply because the service is so unreliable. 30 minute late trains with no excuse. A new time zone which I've christened "CIE time" which happens +/-20 minutes either way of the actual time. Ludicrous queues at busy times as there is rarely more than 1 person serving customers. (I've seen queues of up to 40 people at Kent station - though admittedly the new ticket machines alleviated some of this). And fares that continue to go up and up despite a pathetic level of service.

This morning I had yet another experience of a cancellation. And on this route a replacement bus service is an almost unknown luxury. After waiting on a freezing platform since 08:15 you are told that the next train is at 09:44! By a disembodied voice of course. If I ever get my hands on the retarded female who owns that disembodied voice I will probably have to restrain myself from strangling her. No replacement bus? So if you left home at 08:05 for a 9 o clock start you'll be lucky to get to work by 10:00.

Do CIE staff get "benchmarking"? I should hope not after the appalling treatment which I as a customer am shat at by CIE staff.

To most CIE staff you're not a person, a user or a customer, just a hassle is all you are :mad:

is_that_so

shltter wrote:

Just to add I believe that Dart drivers turned up to work their normal rosters and were prevented so that their position would be that they did not strike that they made themselves available for their "normal agreed" days work and were prevented from working normally

I have had "normal agreed hours" which if I had carried on like these individuals I would have been without those "normal agreed hours ". Without my own "normal agreed hours" I earn nothing. The company should go after the unofficial strikers for any losses. IMO some public sector unions have never really cared about anyone else but themselves and indulge in circumlocution and selective semantics. Even if they are not to be held responsible for this event, their general behaviour only encourages this type of activity.

shltter

murphaph wrote:

To most CIE staff you're not a person, a user or a customer, just a hassle is all you are :mad:

That is untrue undoubtedly there are people like that as there are in every organisation in the world but it is unfair to brand most staff that way

shltter

is_that_so wrote:

I have had "normal agreed hours" which if I had carried on like these individuals I would have been without those "normal agreed hours ". Without my own "normal agreed hours" I earn nothing. The company should go after the unofficial strikers for any losses. IMO some public sector unions have never really cared about anyone else but themselves and indulge in circumlocution and selective semantics. Even if they are not to be held responsible for this event, their general behaviour only encourages this type of activity.

Well perhaps you should think about joining as a Union or changing your job

is_that_so

shltter wrote:

Well perhaps you should think about joining as a Union or changing your job

Self-employed.

murphaph

shltter wrote:

That is untrue undoubtedly there are people like that as there are in every organisation in the world but it is unfair to brand most staff that way

No it's not. I'm born and bred in Dublin, I have 27 years experience of using CIE/IE/BAC on a regular basis and the majority of staff I have dealt with are not customer focused sh!tter, far from it I'm sad to say.I can distinctly remember 1 bus driver who was a pleasure to be driven by, an absolute gem. The rest are mediocre at best, but more are positively rude and surly. The last member of CIE staff I spoke to was the guy in Connolly Station who sits at the info desk. I was just picking up a timetable and said "Hello" out of politeness-he comletely ignored me the ignorant fcuker. This is not uncommon on IE.

Do you think we all like running CIE down? Do you not think we'd much prefer a customer focused organisation who we could be proud of?

shltter

murphaph wrote:

Do you think we all like running CIE down? ?

Yes

I think that some people have an agenda that is anti semi state usually associated with PD type liberal economics. To justify that position they make sweeping statements like you have just done.

shltter

is_that_so wrote:

Self-employed.

That is your choice

murphaph

shltter wrote:

Yes

I think that some people have an agenda that is anti semi state usually associated with PD type liberal economics. To justify that position they make sweeping statements like you have just done.

You can keep your head in the sand if you like but I have experienced enough of CIE to make general comments about the organisation. It is not customer focused Sh!tter. I'm not right-wing, I'm socialist. It's easy to label anyone who criticises CIE and their unions as a blueshirt facist, but harder to give excuses when you realise we're all ordinary PAYE taxpayers making the criticisms.

MT

daymobrew wrote:

I think that many people are fed up with the frequency of strikes by unions in Ireland. I feel that the right to strike is being abused.

There does seem to be a higher frequency of strikes in the Republic than in the UK. Is this because more of the economy is semi/state controlled (the problems seem to mostly occur in the public sector) or is there a difference in legislation governing unions?

CIE often looks like a throw back to 70s Britain and the stop go nature of the periods troubled industrial relations.

OT: the bench marking deal down there looked like absolute madness - whopping pay increase in exchange for, er... no increase in productivity. Anymore deals like would surely be an irresponsible indulgence on the part of the government.

MT

My understanding of the history of the semi-states is that they were established partly out of ideological considerations and partly due to the Republic being a small, undeveloped economy suffering from economic mismanagement. In the era prior to globalisation it was unlikely that investors would be found to establish or develop the various industries the country saw as essential.

I suppose that in a country stricken by high rates of emigration these companies developed a siege mentality of protecting the few jobs going. Unlike in wealthier parts job security in the Republic quite literally meant not having to get the boat. So it’s possible to understand why these organisations viewed customer service as a low priority. Equally, the government probably saw them as an electorally popular make work scheme in a poor country where jobs always trumped customer comfort.

Am I anyway near right so far?

But these days the Republic now has one of the richest, most open and best managed economies in the world. In addition it’s creating so many jobs it’s become a magnet for immigrants. So in these vastly different circumstances is there really such a need for so many semi-states? And even if there is surely their ethos needs to change drastically from producer focused to consumer focused?

It’s hardly as if there’s a scarcity of employment options in todays Ireland!!

daymobrew

shltter wrote:

I disagree I think that the unions work hard to ensure the vast vast majority of disputes never get as far as industrial action the figures on days lost due to industrial action bear this out

I searched the Labour Court Recommendations (search for "IRISH RAIL") and found a surprising amount of disputes about discipline. Most of these are as a result of a worker refusing directions of supervisors.

My favourite case (I have a printout at work) is where staff in the booking office in Heuston Station wanted disturbance money for construction in the station. The company argued that the construction was nowhere near the booking office. They still got some money. That stuff is childish and really undermines the original purpose of unions.
I will admit that unions do their upmost to protect their members - they are excellent at that. Unfortunately customers are forgotten about.
The Platform 11 group comments about the poor customer service provided by Irish Rail employees.

Transport21 Fan

daymobrew wrote:

The Platform 11 group comments about the poor customer service provided by Irish Rail employees.

You sure about that? I was told by the moderator of the P11 board (in a PM) that I would be banned from the board if I did not stop criticising CIE staff and management for their poor performance and complete lack of vision.

daymobrew

I got a mail from SIPTU this morning saying that the unofficial strike had nothing to do with SIPTU and that it was National Bus and Rail Union members.

I found the Labour Court case about disturbance for the undisturbed. I think the root cause of this is that the 20 clerical workers wanted disturbance money because everyone else got some. They wanted e500, were offered e350 and eventually got e350. This stuff makes me so mad :mad:

shltter

murphaph wrote:

You can keep your head in the sand if you like but I have experienced enough of CIE to make general comments about the organisation. It is not customer focused Sh!tter. I'm not right-wing, I'm socialist. It's easy to label anyone who criticises CIE and their unions as a blueshirt facist, but harder to give excuses when you realise we're all ordinary PAYE taxpayers making the criticisms.

I don't have my head in the sand

CIE and its companies havve completely changed in the last 10 years could they change more YES
Do they resemble in anyway the companies that existed in the 70s and 80s NO


And CIE workers are ordinary PAYE taxpayers as well

shltter

daymobrew wrote:

I got a mail from SIPTU this morning saying that the unofficial strike had nothing to do with SIPTU and that it was National Bus and Rail Union members.

I found the Labour Court case about disturbance for the undisturbed. I think the root cause of this is that the 20 clerical workers wanted disturbance money because everyone else got some. They wanted e500, were offered e350 and eventually got e350. This stuff makes me so mad :mad:

Why tell lies the labour court decided that they were disturbed and increased the award from the companies original offer
What makes me mad is that you are telling lies do you not think we can go to the link and read the labour court judgement ourselves you took the companies submission that there was little or no disturbance as the truth and ignored the unions submission and that the labour court found in favour of the employees

markpb

shltter wrote:

And CIE workers are ordinary PAYE taxpayers as well

Yes and no.

Do they have vastly powerful unions that are willing to strike over fairly trivial issues? Yes.

Do they have the ability to leave tens of thousands of people without public transport? Yes.

Do they have a huge part to play in getting cars off the road and making Dublin a better place to live? Yes.

Are they accountable to the general public or their managment? Generally no, or so it would seem from a passengers point of view.

Forgive me if you think I'm a blueshirt PD fan, I'm not. I think CIE companies have a hard time sometimes with the crap they have to put up with from the DoT. I know that drivers (bus, not train) put up with crap from a lot of customers.

I don't, however, think privatisation is the way forward. I just want them to be polite and effecient, like the rest of us are meant to be when dealing with customers.

shltter

MT wrote:

There does seem to be a higher frequency of strikes in the Republic than in the UK. Is this because more of the economy is semi/state controlled (the problems seem to mostly occur in the public sector) or is there a difference in legislation governing unions?

Ireland as well as the UK has among the lowest levels of Industrial disputes in the EU


http://www.lrc.ie/ViewDoc.asp?fn=/documents/work/statistics.htm&CatID=18&m=u



http://business.timesonline.co.uk/article/0,,8210-2043766,00.html

MT wrote:

CIE often looks like a throw back to 70s Britain and the stop go nature of the periods troubled industrial relations.

I suggest you google "strike UK" arriva, firstbus, Stagecoach, connex, Tube etc and you will see the number of strikes in the privatised public transport market in the UK in the last couple of years.
CIE as a group would have far less disruption due to industrial action

MT wrote:

OT: the bench marking deal down there looked like absolute madness - whopping pay increase in exchange for, er... no increase in productivity. Anymore deals like would surely be an irresponsible indulgence on the part of the government.

And you are right this is completely off topic because this is the Commuting/transport forum and benchmarking did not include anyone in CIE.

shltter

markpb wrote:

Yes and no.

Do they have vastly powerful unions that are willing to strike over fairly trivial issues? Yes.

No they don't what trivial matters have CIE unions striked over.

markpb wrote:

Do they have the ability to leave tens of thousands of people without public transport? Yes.

That is the nature of public transport companies or indeed any company particularly in a dominant position.

markpb wrote:

Do they have a huge part to play in getting cars off the road and making Dublin a better place to live? Yes.

Agreed

markpb wrote:

Are they accountable to the general public or their managment? Generally no, or so it would seem from a passengers point of view.

What it seems and what the position is are not the same thing

markpb wrote:

Forgive me if you think I'm a blueshirt PD fan, I'm not. I think CIE companies have a hard time sometimes with the crap they have to put up with from the DoT. I know that drivers (bus, not train) put up with crap from a lot of customers.

I don't, however, think privatisation is the way forward. I just want them to be polite and effecient, like the rest of us are meant to be when dealing with customers.

Agreed I can only suggest that if you come across rudeness that you complain to the company involved as you would with any other company you deal with


Just to add that I have been employed in DB for 12 years I have been on strike once.
Other than that we had a couple of protest days about Autofare that we had to have to force the company to introduce an Autofare system and that has been to the benefit of everyone with the reduction in assaults
The only other time was the support of Irish Ferries workers and a protest about Brennans idiotic plan none of which were full days strike and were deliberately timed to have minimum effect on the travelling public.

CIE workers have mortgages and children the same as everyone else striking and protest days are a last resort and nobody likes doing it.

parsi

murphaph wrote:

No it's not. I'm born and bred in Dublin, I have 27 years experience of using CIE/IE/BAC on a regular basis and the majority of staff I have dealt with are not customer focused sh!tter, far from it I'm sad to say.I can distinctly remember 1 bus driver who was a pleasure to be driven by, an absolute gem. The rest are mediocre at best, but more are positively rude and surly. The last member of CIE staff I spoke to was the guy in Connolly Station who sits at the info desk. I was just picking up a timetable and said "Hello" out of politeness-he comletely ignored me the ignorant fcuker. This is not uncommon on IE.

Do you think we all like running CIE down? Do you not think we'd much prefer a customer focused organisation who we could be proud of?

On a different forum Ryanair could just as easily replace CIE in the above passage and it would be just as valid. And Ryanair is unionless....

murphaph

shltter wrote:

what trivial matters have CIE unions striked over.

They wanted to strike over having to drive DARTs with 4 more carriages hooked up to them without getting EXTRA MONEY. They realised that the public had had enough and would fully support the government and board of CIE in facing down the petty CIE unions.

Sh!tter, you may believe CIE are not the same company that existed in 1970, but from a customer point of view (which I am and you are not) they haven't changed much at all. There is next to no customer focused ethos in CIE companies and that's a fact.

murphaph

parsi wrote:

On a different forum Ryanair could just as easily replace CIE in the above passage and it would be just as valid. And Ryanair is unionless....

Ryanair doesn't have a monopoly postion parsi. I can fly with whoever I like. If I want to take a bus or train to town I MUST use CIE companies.

BendiBus

murphaph wrote:

Ryanair doesn't have a monopoly postion parsi. I can fly with whoever I like. If I want to take a bus or train to town I MUST use CIE companies.

Luas, Mortons, Aircoach and private vehicles are some of the competition CIE faces.

BTW, I work for CIÉ and I'm a customer too. I travel by bus every single day and use the train quite often too. And I used BÉ 2 weeks ago. While I don't recall any case where I could report outstanding service, I have no complaints about staff from a customer point of view except the occasional bus driver who can seem a bit surly. Which is a shame but happens in every company.

Being staff (and caring about doing a good job) 2 things upset me. Poor staff and people who love to complain about CIÉ even when they have nothing to complain about. I'm not talking about genuine complaints. I'm sure you know the type I mean. It happens the world over that people will always complain about public transport, but it's very disheartening when you have to put up with it day in day out and when much of it is totally unfair.

Nobody gets into public transport to gain popularity!

murphaph

BendiBus wrote:

Luas, Mortons, Aircoach and private vehicles are some of the competition CIE faces.

I said if I want to take a bus or train to town I must use CIE and that's true. There's no privateers running any services from my local bus stops.

BendiBus wrote:

BTW, I work for CIÉ and I'm a customer too. I travel by bus every single day and use the train quite often too. And I used BÉ 2 weeks ago. While I don't recall any case where I could report outstanding service, I have no complaints about staff from a customer point of view except the occasional bus driver who can seem a bit surly. Which is a shame but happens in every company.

You presumably travle for free then. I'd put up with the surliness if it were free which is why I tolerate Ryanair and their absence of customer service-it's dirt cheap.

BendiBus wrote:

Being staff (and caring about doing a good job) 2 things upset me. Poor staff and people who love to complain about CIÉ even when they have nothing to complain about. I'm not talking about genuine complaints. I'm sure you know the type I mean. It happens the world over that people will always complain about public transport, but it's very disheartening when you have to put up with it day in day out and when much of it is totally unfair.

I imagine if you're a good worker that poor staff p!ss you off immensely as is the case in any job. The problem is that there are so many poor staff in CIE that you all get tarred with the same brush.

BendiBus wrote:

Nobody gets into public transport to gain popularity!

Maybe that's what's wrong,

BendiBus

murphaph wrote:

I said if I want to take a bus or train to town I must use CIE and that's true. There's no privateers running any services from my local bus stops.

Which is exactly the same as Ryanair. They have an effective monopoly on some routes, not on others.

murphaph wrote:

You presumably travle for free then. I'd put up with the surliness if it were free which is why I tolerate Ryanair and their absence of customer service-it's dirt cheap

I don't travel free on Bus Eireann (tight gits ) but I find their service pretty good.

murphaph wrote:

The problem is that there are so many poor staff in CIE that you all get tarred with the same brush.

I'd dispute that. The problem is that it's the bad experiences that people remember the most and so an assumption develops that most experiences (and thereby most staff) are bad.

murphaph wrote:

Maybe that's what's wrong

Naughty! You know what I meant. Some people will always want something to complain about. Public transport, no matter how good will always be the target of some. But better than being a weather forecaster

SickCert

murphaph wrote:

To most CIE staff you're not a person, a user or a customer, just a hassle is all you are :mad:

Thats not fair to those of us that are driving around having great craic with our ill-regulars. I always make the effort as it makes the day go quicker,,, of course now there are some 'Bad uns' out there that do the evil deed.
But dont slate us all because of it.

MT

shltter wrote:

Ireland as well as the UK has among the lowest levels of Industrial disputes in the EU

Hence, Ireland and the UK outperforming other economies in Europe and recieving the lion's share of fdi.

However, that's the private sector - the 'peace' in the public sector might be explained by this quote from the article you linked to:

'Strikes in highly unionised public services are blessedly rare compared with the 1970s, partly because, as again yesterday, ministers give way at the slightest threat. In education, health, administration and parts of the transport industry, unions can still rely on taxpayers to foot any bill. Over the past eight years public sector strikes have caused the vast majority of days lost.'

A similar weakness on the part of the Irish government has most likely averted a similar share of strikes in the Republic. If so, it's not exactly a ringing endorsement of good industrial relations.

And that quote could very well explain the supposed scarcity of strikes in CIE - weakness at the top, not union unwillingness to 'down tools'. Whereas the privatised sector in the UK have competition to face and the rigours of shareholder governance to answer too and so can't afford to cave in frequently. The resulting superior service and greater customer focus most likely puts staff under greater productive pressure resulting in a slightly greater number of flare ups. But then CIE can avoid that as staff never seem to be under pressure, by comparison, while working at their leisurely pace.

shltter wrote:

And you are right this is completely off topic because this is the Commuting/transport forum and benchmarking did not include anyone in CIE.

As an outsider I'm not as up to the minute on political deals as someone living down there.

And as a hard pressed contributer I'd like to demand flexible posting rights. What, you don't agree. Right, that's it... 'ONE OUT, ALL OUT!':D