Trouble in Dublin: For the Love of Ulster

flogen

http://www.rte.ie/news/2006/0225/loyalist.html

Trouble has broken out ahead of a Loyalist march in Dublin city centre commemorating the victims of Republican violence.

The 'Love Ulster parade' is due to travel from Parnell Square to Leinster House.

About 300 protesters, who are trying to stop the march from proceeding along the route, have turned on gardai, throwing bricks, traffic cones and fireworks.

That's it lads, prove the paraders right; the Republic has no real tolerance for Unionists.

Morons.

Gurgle

flogen wrote:

That's it lads, prove the paraders right; the Republic has no real tolerance for Unionists.

Morons.

Yep, but it cuts both ways.
Why parade down the main street of the capital city of your declared arch-enemies ?

KdjaCL

http://homepage.eircom.net/~kdjac/ads.JPG

Guinness really know how to market their stuff.

http://www.liveireland.com/webcams.shtml


kdjac

Freddie59

flogen wrote:

http://www.rte.ie/news/2006/0225/loyalist.html


That's it lads, prove the paraders right; the Republic has no real tolerance for Unionists.

Morons.

Must agree. It was a tremendous opportunity to show Unionist bigotry that no-one cares. If it had been ignored it wouldn't have even warranted a mention on the news. But the so-called 'republicans' couldn't see past their own bigoted noses.

Instead they handed a PR victory to the Unionists. The smug face of that other well-known bigot, Jeffry Donaldson on 6:1 says it all. A sad day for our fair country.:(

Hobbes

Where you there? I was.. There was little to no republicans there. The majority were thugs and skangers.

flogen

Freddie59 wrote:

Instead they handed a PR victory to the Unionists. The smug face of that other well-known bigot, Jeffry Donaldson on 6:1 says it all. A sad day for our fair country.:(

I expected that I would see the likes of Donaldson reveling in this, on RTE Radio 1 he was quite understanding about it, considering;
He thanks the Gardai for their work, said they couldn't have been more professional in their actions, that they did everything in their power to keep the marchers out of harm and that he was happy to take all of their advice on board.
He also said that he understands that the rioters were not representative of Irish people, or Dubliners, and said that people were coming up to them and welcoming them to the city, explaining that they wanted a United Ireland but not by violent means and that they respected the loyalists right to protest and their point.
He also seemed to be quite understanding that this was unconnected to his enemies at SF.

I'm sure many Loyalists will see it as proof that they won't get accepted in a United Ireland, even if there were no republican protesters out today, but he certainly didn't see it that way.

almv

Hobbes wrote:

Where you there? I was.. There was little to no republicans there. The majority were thugs and skangers.

Thugs, skangers, Shinners - tend to all come from the same pool

flogen

almv wrote:

Thugs, skangers, Shinners - tend to all come from the same pool

please read the forum charter before posting; sweeping statements like that are unacceptable here.

almv

ok sorry but those guys really annoyed me today.......

flogen

almv wrote:

ok sorry but those guys really annoyed me today.......

It seems as though it was a mixture of general scumbags, Northern muppets and anarchists, perhaps some Republican SF members thrown in there, and Ireland.com reported something about the IRSP being involved too.

For once not even the most extreme of Unionists are pointing the finger at Gerry Adams' Sinn Fein

Orionetheus

cant help but notice on the live cams they've reverted the camera for Oconnel to the 12th........the other ccameras are live.

flogen

Orionetheus wrote:

cant help but notice on the live cams they've reverted the camera for Oconnel to the 12th........the other ccameras are live.

Odd, I'd say it's an error though because the second O'Connell St Camera is the one that showed most of the wreckage, you couldn't really see anything from the first one

Orionetheus

I'd say that they dont want tourists looking at chaos and destruction.

BrianD

The council were cleaning the street even before the mob had been chased around town and back to Henry St. I assume the wanted to get some debris off the streets.

While it was difficult to know what was going to happen, it was unbelievable that the amount of material was left on O'Connell St. for these guys to throw around.

luckat

I'd have to take issue with the statement that the rioters were not republicans; many were draped in the national flag. There didn't seem to be any anarchists. The radio was saying people had been bused in from all over the country. A truly disgusting business.

segadreamcast

I can't say there *were* anarchists luckat, however...

...We were interviewing three members of Anarchist youth in the studio between 11 and 12 on Saturday morning. At 11:55, they were virtually running out the door to get to the city... now, obviously, this doesn't imply involvement - though one wonders "why so keen?".

lostexpectation

what were you doing associating with those mindless thugs, why were you giving them airtime? noelrock

Freddie59

luckat wrote:

I'd have to take issue with the statement that the rioters were not republicans; many were draped in the national flag. There didn't seem to be any anarchists. The radio was saying people had been bused in from all over the country. A truly disgusting business.

That doesn't nescessarily mean you're a republican. Wrapping your national flag around you is total disrespect. Brings an image of English Football hooligans to mind straight away.:mad:

Freddie59

Hobbes wrote:

Where you there? I was.. There was little to no republicans there. The majority were thugs and skangers.

I did put the word in inverted commas.;)

whiskeyman

Freddie59 wrote:

Wrapping your national flag around you is total disrespect.

Just as well we don't have many Olympic or sporting heros so. :rolleyes:

Hobbes

luckat wrote:

I'd have to take issue with the statement that the rioters were not republicans;

No a more correct statement is that not all of the rioters were republicans. Of what I saw on the day and footage I have only seen 2 people with flags (one wrapped around his face) and one guy wearing what looked like an Irish

The radio was saying people had been bused in from all over the country. A truly disgusting business.

The only people bussed in from all over the country were original marchers. When I got stopped by the cops to let the buses pass there were about 10 or so buses for the marchers.

The people rioting just looked like the usual skangers you would see wandering around town.

While I have no love for SF, I can't see how destroying shops+cars is somehow in thier agenda of a united Ireland.

TBH as a media circus it was a win/win situation for the Orange Order.
- Allowed march without incident and they can claim that they can march up north because thier Southern Catholics let them there.
- Causing violence they can go back and say that Catholics/Republicans/SF are animals and it was to be expected.
- Denied to march and can claim that Irish government are trying to censor thier freedom of expression.

Freddie59

whiskeyman wrote:

Just as well we don't have many Olympic or sporting heros so. :rolleyes:

Wrapping yourself in the national flag, having represented your country, after many, many years of dedication and training, and then bringing honours home, is quite different from wearing a balaclava, setting cars on fire, looting shops, and attacking an indigenous Irish reporter while calling him an 'Orange Bastard' are two very different things my friend.:rolleyes: :rolleyes:

You weren't one of the ones doing the latter - were you?

mayhem#

flogen wrote:

the Republic has no real tolerance for Unionists.

Mmmm, so the "rioters" represent the whole of the Irish population?

E.

mayhem#

almv wrote:

Thugs, skangers, Shinners - tend to all come from the same pool

And I presume you will call them opinionated bigots too?

E.

mayhem#

Whose "brilliant" idea was it anyway to allow a "Love Ulster" march down O'Connel street? Probably got to do with misguided PC'nes.
I do not see neo-nazis being allowed to march down the streets of Jeruzalem...

E.

whiskeyman

Freddie59 wrote:

Wrapping yourself in the national flag, having represented your country, after many, many years of dedication and training, and then bringing honours home, is quite different from wearing a balaclava, setting cars on fire, looting shops, and attacking an indigenous Irish reporter while calling him an 'Orange Bastard' are two very different things my friend.:rolleyes: :rolleyes:

You weren't one of the ones doing the latter - were you?

Re-read what you said.

That doesn't necessarily mean you're a republican. Wrapping your national flag around you is total disrespect. Brings an image of English Football hooligans to mind straight away

You never specified how one acts while they're wrapped in the flag.
I totally agree that if you act in a irresponsible and criminal manner, you bring disrespect to the flag, but I see nothing wrong with wearing it otherwise.

What about festival goers who like to wear their country's flag?
What about items of clothing with a country's flag on them?
What about the thosands of well behaved Irish sports fans that travel the world to watch their country?
Is this "total disrespect"?

Freddie59 wrote:

are two very different things my friend.

I am not your friend

You weren't one of the ones doing the latter - were you?

No... were you? :rolleyes:

Freddie59

whiskeyman wrote:

Re-read what you said.


You never specified how one acts while they're wrapped in the flag.
I totally agree that if you act in a irresponsible and criminal manner, you bring disrespect to the flag, but I see nothing wrong with wearing it otherwise.

What about festival goers who like to wear their country's flag?
What about items of clothing with a country's flag on them?
What about the thosands of well behaved Irish sports fans that travel the world to watch their country?
Is this "total disrespect"?




I am not your friend



No... were you? :rolleyes:

We can split hairs all day - but it won't change anything. Those that were in O'Connell Street on Saturday are sub-human, mindless, scum. They should be restrained from even looking at our National Flag - let alone wear it.:mad:

whiskeyman

Freddie59 wrote:

We can split hairs all day - but it won't change anything. Those that were in O'Connell Street on Saturday are sub-human, mindless, scum. They should be restrained from even looking at our National Flag - let alone wear it.:mad:

Those that rioted and looted are the idiots... do not tar everyone that was on O'Connell St that day.

You still never answered my question in relation to your statement that wearing the flag is "total disrespect" in general, and in the examples I gave.

Hobbes

This has to be one of the better media pieces I have read on what happened.

http://www.indymedia.ie/article/74528

walshb

I never thought I'd see the day when I'd be actually be happy to see rioting on our streets. Looting and general vilonece for the sake of it I do not condone, but protesting with force against a group that Despise everything Irish and have murdered hundreds of Irish people thru the years, I do Condone. We've spent hundreds of years trying to rid Ireland and Dublin of Imperialist thugs, and now they think they can come down here and parade their hatred towards us under the 'guise' of victims of the troubles. And I say if they try again, we should revolt again. For too long Nationalists have been oppressed by Unionist Bigots in the North and now they think they can dictate here to us in the South. I'm not in any way Anti English, Welsh or Scottish, but I certainly am Anti loyalism and anti Bigotry. This is what attempted to march down the capital street of Ireland on Saturday. How dare they!!!

flogen

mayhem# wrote:

Mmmm, so the "rioters" represent the whole of the Irish population?

E.

No, I made that point as I expected the marchers to use this as a tool in pushing themselves even further from Nationalism, and more importantly from the real Irish Republic; I was pleasently surprised that they didn't.

Whose "brilliant" idea was it anyway to allow a "Love Ulster" march down O'Connel street? Probably got to do with misguided PC'nes.
I do not see neo-nazis being allowed to march down the streets of Jeruzalem...

E.

Hardly the same at all; these people were victims of IRA violence; if they allowed the British Army to march then I might see some kind of point, but victims are not the enemy, nor have they ever been the enemies of the state.

Hobart

Freddie59 wrote:

We can split hairs all day - but it won't change anything. Those that were in O'Connell Street on Saturday are sub-human, mindless, scum. They should be restrained from even looking at our National Flag - let alone wear it.:mad:

I think whiskeyman was commenting on your wide-sweeping statement. Your reacting, which is understandable. But in your reactions you are making exactly the same mistake as those people who participated in violence on Saturday. Your equating "everybody" in O'Connell St as being sub-human. Your simply wrong or mis-informed. Some people where there to cause trouble, some where there to voice their opposition and some where there to observe. SO not "all" of them are as you have described.

For my part I feel that the marchers should have been welcomed and applauded through our fair city.

flogen

walshb wrote:

I never thought I'd see the day when I'd be actually be happy to see rioting on our streets. Looting and general vilonece for the sake of it I do not condone, but protesting with force against a group that Despise everything Irish and have murdered hundreds of Irish people thru the years, I do Condone. We've spent hundreds of years trying to rid Ireland and Dublin of Imperialist thugs, and now they think they can come down here and parade their hatred towards us under the 'guise' of victims of the troubles. And I say if they try again, we should revolt again. For too long Nationalists have been oppressed by Unionist Bigots in the North and now they think they can dictate here to us in the South. I'm not in any way Anti English, Welsh or Scottish, but I certainly am Anti loyalism and anti Bigotry. This is what attempted to march down the capital street of Ireland on Saturday. How dare they!!!

So you think smashing up our main street, attacking our police force, singling out and attacking members of the media and generally making a show of our city and the word Republican is a good thing?
Whatever you think about FAIR being a front for anti-Irish sentiments, you can't deny that the victims of IRA violence were involved in the march and they should be shown some respect.
A peaceful counter demonstration would have been fine, people are free to express their feelings without infringing on other people's rights, how anyone can condone violence in any form is beyond me.

walshb

Hobart wrote:

.

For my part I feel that the marchers should have been welcomed and applauded through our fair city.

By marchers I'm asuming the Unionist and loyalist bigots??...applaud a group that despises the very land they are marching on, a group that despises the Irish tricolour, a group that has colluded with the British army in countless murders of Irish Nationalist, a group that throws urine at school kids in Holy cross, a group that for centuries has denied Irish people their identity, denied them a right to vote, roobed their land etc etc.

Who exactly Hobart do you represent, because I don't believe you represent the feelings of the vast majority of Irish citizens on this Island.

Hobart

walshb wrote:

By marchers I'm asuming the Unionist and loyalist bigots??...applaud a group that despises the very land they are marching on, a group that despises the Irish tricolour, a group that has colluded with the British army in countless murders of Irish Nationalist, a group that throws urine at school kids in Holy cross, a group that for centuries has denied Irish people their identity, denied them a right to vote, roobed their land etc etc.

Who exactly Hobart do you represent, because I don't believe you represent the feelings of the vast majority of Irish citizens on this Island.

Yes. I do. Let he who is without sin.... I say. I have no respect for those who have murdered in the past, on both sides of the divide. Those of a nationalist leaning who have murdered and tortured in the name of a 'free' Ireland, have not done so in my name, despite their claims to the contrary. The same goes for those murdering in the name of queen and country.

I represent me btw. Was Carson not a Dub?

flogen

walshb wrote:

By marchers I'm asuming the Unionist and loyalist bigots??...applaud a group that despises the very land they are marching on, a group that despises the Irish tricolour, a group that has colluded with the British army in countless murders of Irish Nationalist, a group that throws urine at school kids in Holy cross, a group that for centuries has denied Irish people their identity, denied them a right to vote, roobed their land etc etc.

Who exactly Hobart do you represent, because I don't believe you represent the feelings of the vast majority of Irish citizens on this Island.

Please read the charter in relation to sweeping statements on groups and parties, there are unionists and loyalists that feel the way you describe I'm sure, but just like these so called Republicans that rioted on saturday they are unrepresentative of their apparent cause and are shown far more respect than they deserve by being group in such a valid section of society.

walshb

Flogen I agree with what you are saying, but in this situation we are taliking about an issue that is extremely sensitive, this is not a protest against high taxes, road deaths, unemployment, bin charges. This is peoples lives that Irish people were demonstrating against. These loyalists are worse than the Ku klux klan, than the apartheid. So it is easy to say in hinsight that they should have been peaceful, but we're talking about such a sensitive and delicate issue. It is not that eay for Irish people to stand by and watch such bigots parade through their streets with ease. Like I said I do not agree with looting and cars being burned out, but I do agree with stopping those Loyalist marching what ever it takes.

walshb

Flogen, have I overstepped the mark with my posting as regards what one can and cannot say. If so, I apologise. The charter is there for everyone, so I'll take heed in future

Hobart

walshb wrote:

Flogen I agree with what you are saying, but in this situation we are taliking about an issue that is extremely sensitive, this is not a protest against high taxes, road deaths, unemployment, bin charges. This is peoples lives that Irish people were demonstrating against. These loyalists are worse than the Ku klux klan, than the apartheid. So it is easy to say in hinsight that they should have been peaceful, but we're talking about such a sensitive and delicate issue. It is not that eay for Irish people to stand by and watch such bigots parade through their streets with ease. Like I said I do not agree with looting and cars being burned out, but I do agree with stopping those Loyalist marching what ever it takes.

Would you agree that representitives of SF should be allowed parade down O'Connell st? And if yes, why?, bearing in mind their support and involvement in terrorist activities in the past.

flogen

walshb wrote:

Flogen I agree with what you are saying, but in this situation we are taliking about an issue that is extremely sensitive, this is not a protest against high taxes, road deaths, unemployment, bin charges. This is peoples lives that Irish people were demonstrating against. These loyalists are worse than the Ku klux klan, than the apartheid. So it is easy to say in hinsight that they should have been peaceful, but we're talking about such a sensitive and delicate issue. It is not that eay for Irish people to stand by and watch such bigots parade through their streets with ease. Like I said I do not agree with looting and cars being burned out, but I do agree with stopping those Loyalist marching what ever it takes.

The majority of the marchers were victims of IRA violence, the fact is that the loyalists who hate our country would never have planned to marched to its centre and discuss its problems with our ministers, extreme loyalists have no respect or time for the Irish Government and would not have even recognised it enough to protest outside it.
These loyalists are victims of a group that pretends to act on our behalf, when it does not. The loyalists you are so opposed to would never set foot in the Republic, unless they were trying to attack it.
Stopping the march by doing whatever it takes is baffling to me, you are condoning violence, and violence against our Gardaí (which is what it took).

walshb

Flogen, Jeffrey Donaldson was planning a speech after the march. He and members of the Orange order were present. If that's not eveidence enough that those present are hard line bigots, I don't know what is. These are the same people who supported the throwing of urine on children in Holy cross, the same people who marched through Garvaghy and watched and applauded as British forces beat peaceful nationalist off their streets. Don't try to tell me that these people should be welcomed to antagonise and incite us on our capital street....As for Hobarts question, we are not discussing Sinn Fein's right to march, it's whether or not loyalists should be allowed to march. I say a firm NO!!!

Hobart

I appreciate that we are not discussing SF right to march. We are discussing the public's reaction to a group of marchers. You seem to think that the marchers on Saturday where not worthy of the right to represent their cause because they represent murderers etc...I'm wondering do you think the public should have the same outcry around easter and paddy's day when those who represent the IRA get their chance to defile the streets with their presence, or do you think we should reserve this type of welcom just for those whose politicol ideals you disagree with? I'm asking this in the context of the riots, and not the right to march or not.

flogen

walshb wrote:

Flogen, Jeffrey Donaldson was planning a speech after the march. He and members of the Orange order were present. If that's not eveidence enough that those present are hard line bigots, I don't know what is.

So you believe that attacking the Gardaí and destroying the main street of this country is the way to show your displeasure?
Not all present were hard line bigots (Which is an objective term).

Hobbes

Orange Order.. no. Those who have an issue with IRA deaths. Yes.

The Orange Order could of done the decent thing and just not shown up. They knew it would cause riots (it was splattered all over thier website) even if they had of made it past Parnell Street. But it works out better for them this way.

There have been similar protests before where OO have not shown up and there has been no one caring either way.

walshb

Hobart I am not a Sinn Fein or IRA member. I am a moderate Republican who believes that Nationalist in the North have sufferd terribly at the hands of British Imperialism. Yes the protestant/Unionist community have also suffered and I sympathise with them all, but Paddy's day is Irelands national day and to compare Nationalist celebrating this day with a parade to Loyalist marching through our capital street with members of the Orange order and all I've described previous is nonsensical. These people who were marching hate this country and everything associated with it. To think of the people who died in 1916 to free Ireland from this barbarity, and then we are asked to applaud the very people who inflicted this upon us is ludicrous. I'm all for building bridges and engaging in dialogue, but this is a step far too much too soon.

Hobart

walshb wrote:

Hobart I am not a Sinn Fein or IRA member. I am a moderate Republican who believes that Nationalist in the North have sufferd terribly at the hands of British Imperialism. Yes the protestant/Unionist community have also suffered and I sympathise with them all, but Paddy's day is Irelands national day and to compare Nationalist celebrating this day with a parade to Loyalist marching through our capital street with members of the Orange order and all I've described previous is nonsensical. These people who were marching hate this country and everything associated with it. To think of the people who died in 1916 to free Ireland from this barbarity, and then we are asked to applaud the very people who inflicted this upon us is ludicrous. I'm all for building bridges and engaging in dialogue, but this is a step far too much too soon.

That's a very concise and clear answer, however I did not ask you about your politcal leanings, I asked you a very specific question. Do you believe that we should have the same reaction and intollerance to those who support the murder and torture of citizens of this Island, irrespective of when they march, or should we just reserve it for those who represent political ideals we/you disagree with?

Hobbes

I love the media spin on it..
http://observer.guardian.co.uk/world/story/0,,1718248,00.html

walshb

Hobart with all respect, when did these people suport murder??. I for one know that Sinn Fein lost respect and credibility over the Colombia and McCartney affair and I think what took place in those incidents was so wrong as was Sinn Fein's reaction to them. They actually lost my vote over those incidents. But we are talking about Loyalists insisting on marching on land they despise, owned by people they despise. This has nothing to do with republicans or nationalist enjoying their national holiday (Patrick's). While I agree that violent protest should never be really condoned, I also feel that the issue they were protesting was not the run of the mill type of affair. It was so passinoate and tragic fo Irish people. Do you think black people in Harlem or Jewish people in Israel would wave and applaud the KKK or the Neo nazis's marching down their streets???, absolute not and rightly so. There would be absolute anarchy. Anarchy is wrong but why entice it and incite it as these loyalists did and wanted to do.

walshb

Hobart wrote:

. You seem to think that the marchers on Saturday where not worthy of the right to represent their cause because they represent murderers etc...I'm wondering do you think the public should have the same and not the right to march or not.

Hobart, I'm not saying they do not have the right to march. I'm saying they should not be allowed to exercise that right on land they despise. I do not want a group who despise me, in my back yard. Let them march, but somewhere bloody else where they are wanted and accepted and where they actually like.

walshb

Hobart wrote:

. You seem to think that the marchers on Saturday where not worthy of the right to represent their cause because they represent murderers etc...I'm wondering do you think the public should have the same and not the right to march or not.

Hobart, I'm not saying they do not have the right to march. I'm saying they should not be allowed to exercise that right on land they despise. I do not want a group who despise me, in my backyard. Let them march, but somewhere bloody else where they are wanted and accepted and where they actually like.

monument

whiskeyman wrote:

but I see nothing wrong with wearing it otherwise.

I do, the proper place for a flag is on a flagpole. But I sports fans etc using it doesn’t annoy me much, I cringe when it’s left on a flagpole all the time, and stomach gets unsettled when I see any tattered flag.

I also cringe when those who say they want freedoms for everyone or similar, also say one group or another has no right to use any flag.

I’m the type of person that wishes people would follow the proper rules for flag use, but would also advocate peoples’ right to use it in anyway no matter how I see such as distasteful or disrespectful – from draping over them selves to burning it.

Hobbes wrote:

I love the media spin on it..
http://observer.guardian.co.uk/world/story/0,,1718248,00.html

I've lost a lot of respect for Henry McDonald after this... (Although, I don’t think I had read this Village article until now)...

In a story by The Observer's Irish editor, Henry McDonald, it stated: "It is known that while on regular trips to Prague, Lawlor, the first Irish politician to be jailed for corruption (he was not jailed for corruption) visited brothels and sex clubs in the Czech capital". Henry McDonald quoted a Moscow police spokesman as saying: "They (Liam Lawlor and the woman in the car) were not close friends. She does not have a passport and appears to be Ukrainian. I can only assume they met on the street".

Asked on what basis he had alleged Liam Lawlor visited brothels and sex shops in Prague, Henry McDonald refused to comment, referring queries to The Guardian press office. In a statement The Observer said at first on Tuesday (25 October): "Our story reported accurately and in good faith comments made by the Moscow police. We have not received a complaint about the story, or been made aware of any evidence which contradicts it. Naturally, if presented with new evidence we will investigate further." Later the same day issued the following statement: "Serious discrepancies have emerged in the account provided by police in Moscow to The Observer of the events surrounding the death of Liam Lawlor last Saturday. In the light of these discrepancies we have removed the story published in the Irish edition of The Observer from our website. We would like to apologise for the inaccuracies in the story and for the distress the story caused."

http://www.villagemagazine.ie/article.asp?sid=1&sud=36&aid=673