the "real " ITF taekwon-do in Ireland

original

at the moment there are 3 ITF's in Ireland
Choi Jung Hwa IUTF
Trân Triêu Quân INTA & AITA
Chang Ung RITA

Although there is huge debate as to which the "real" itf is, it must be looked
at that Chang Ungs group still has most of the original ITF Grandmasters including GM Rhee, the highest ranked in the world. Mr.Chang Ungs group has Korea as a full member with all of its masters and GM's.

columok

Sorry... How does any of this matter? Surely once you're having fun training then all of this "real" politics is irrelevant. And just cause it's Korean doesnt make it more genuine.

Millionaire

What about the Hee LL Cho guy too?

Ah....a punch is a punch and a kick is still a kick!

Ger Healy

blah blah blah blah

Who cares ?

unless you are making money from this!!!!!!!! :cool:

yomchi

Exactly who cares. While your watching web sites the rest of us are training!

And FWIW GM Rhee is not the highest ranked in the world, GM Nam Tae Hi is deemed most senior
along with GM Hwang and GM Kong. GM Rhee was the first within Britain to be elevated to GM.

Jon
IUTF

Roper

Millionaire wrote:

What about the Hee LL Cho guy too?

Ah....a punch is a punch and a kick is still a kick!

I used to train with Cho's organisation, and judging from the reception people who I trained with got at "real ITF" scholls, he's not too popular. He's the real deal though, full contact fighter in the 80's, boxed too.

The only people who this makes a difference to is people who think theirs is the real ITF. No one else gives a flying f*ck. They just tend to get on training.

Tim_Murphy

What are you guys talking about? Clearly chang ungs group is the only one going real true great TKD! All the others are clearly fake! :rolleyes:

Anyway Ger, you don't have a valid opinion since you were always doing bastardisd TKD anyway!

[/extreme sarcasm]

Welcome to boards Jon!

yomchi

Tim_Murphy wrote:

What are you guys talking about? Clearly chang ungs group is the only one going real true great TKD! All the others are clearly fake! :rolleyes:

Anyway Ger, you don't have a valid opinion since you were always doing bastardisd TKD anyway!

[/extreme sarcasm]

Welcome to boards Jon!

Hey Tim, thanks for the directions!

dudara

The amount of petty politics in TKD would put any government to shame!

It doesn't matter who you train with. Let the power struggles to people who actually care for them

Ger Healy

Tim so much for your "swine wave" I've never seen you use it in you're mma fight

Tim_Murphy

Tim so much for your "swine wave" I've never seen you use it in you're mma fight

Ok maybe not in MMA yet but I use it every day drinking coffee!

D'ya know what we should do? Told a TKD team event where all the associations were invited and have them compete against each other. That might give people from perspective on is 'real'. I bet everyone would be up for it! What do you say Ger??:rolleyes:

Ger Healy

TKD team event where all the associations were invited and have them compete against each other.

Hahahahahahahahaha

Do you think "original" would be up for that ?

original

up for it?
i'm a 5th degree retired from cometition-
sounds interesting though

Tim_Murphy

That's a no then?
It wouldn't have to be you individualy, you could get your students involved.

Ger,
The problem is that the guys doing real TKD would probably beat all the others a little too easily! Still, the rest could fight for second place;)

original

when things blow over & the ITF's merge, which is only a matter of time boyo

Tim_Murphy

when things blow over & the ITF's merge, which is only a matter of time

LOL, that will happend alrght! :rolleyes:

original

a merge? very possible, maybe not soon, but very possible.

Ger Healy

original wrote:

a merge? very possible, maybe not soon, but very possible.
isn't there talk of WTF & ITF chang ung merging for the olympics, General Choi's dream... believe me, this is happening as we speak.

original take a look at this link and you will see why a merger seem unlikely http://www.itf-online.com/discussion/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=2488

Ger Healy

original wrote:

up for it?
i'm a 5th degree retired from cometition-
sounds interesting though

As a 5th degree you must have some influence in your org, maybe you could organize such an event.

I know Philip Fox an Aimaa instructor in UL held a team comp some years ago. He did say that there were problems getting certain association competing with others.

Is it because they might lose face if their team in beaten in the comp?

Even assocation have egos!!!

Tim_Murphy

Egos in TKD Ger? Never! I won't here of it.

In fairness, some of the associations probably have a good reason not to compete... maybe... OK probably not.

Credit to Philip & co for trying anyway!

memphis

Who care what association is what. I just wanna train in TKD without having to worry about silly political nonsense.

My instructor was with GST (Great Southern TKd) when I joined, he then went independant.... and shortly before Christmas he joined ITF, which of the 3 I don't know, nor do I care, frankly!

I'm training in TKD, and happy doing so, and that's really all that matters.

yomchi

memphis wrote:

Who care what association is what. I just wanna train in TKD without having to worry about silly political nonsense.

My instructor was with GST (Great Southern TKd) when I joined, he then went independant.... and shortly before Christmas he joined ITF, which of the 3 I don't know, nor do I care, frankly!

I'm training in TKD, and happy doing so, and that's really all that matters.

exactly, although I find the politics interesting, it should never get the way of good tuition and training.
As for General Choi's dream of uniting WTF with ITF.. I'd rather fulfill my own dreams first..live longer and prosper!

And hey! Nothing wrong with Sine Wave! as long as its practicality is kept within patterns... don't have me to fight with you Tim!

Tim_Murphy

don't have me to fight with you Tim

well not anymore anyway!;)

I find some of the politics interesting/amusing TBH, it's so farcical really that you'd have to laugh at it.

pma-ire

itf - wtf merge??

hmmmm!!

i wonder how much money is involved in that??

on the original itf thing!!

itf is not even the original form of TaeKwon-Do so none of them have a valid claim :rolleyes:

find a group that you like or just go on your own whatever!! have fun and train hard!!

mark.leonard

sweet jebus, like it matters which ITF is 'real'. We have been inflicted with letters/advertts and various other pieces of propaganda from Master Howard in the Irish Fighter for years, it didn't matter then and it sure doesn't now!

yomchi

itf is not even the original form of TaeKwon-Do so none of them have a valid claim :rolleyes

My good man, this is incorrect! The ITF is a governing body, a selection of committee's, a gathering of people who make decisions - not a form of Taekwon-Do.
The Taekwon-Do that people within the ITF practice is called Chang Hon Taekwon-Do, the version that General Choi continued to work with and develop until his last years in life.

True there are other versions that didn't proceed to develop and hence do an older style more akin to Japanese Karate etc -not saying this is a good thing OR a bad thing by the way!

The cult of General Choi lives strong today, and people who were close to him would like to see them selves carry out his last wishes. Sad thing is, nobody really knows for sure what they were! And now everyone is in disaray!
Im a member of one of the ITF's, what happens at the top doesn't really concern me, albeit I find it very interesting at times, and as Tim says, when the mask slips on some of the senior's it can be quite amusing to see some reactions from people who preach Courtesy and Integrity. The whole debacle over Mike Morningstar is a good example - Tim knows what im on about! :rolleyes:
For anyone who claims to belong to the real ITF is talking BS - and I have done similar in the past. There is no real ITF at the present time, its fractured and split and in some areas in chaos. Having said that I am happy to belong to the ITF based in Canada, I have good friends within it, but if my Instructor decided to leave at any time, I'd go with him - as long as it wasn't to AIMAA - don't think i'd go back there!

Anyway end of rant

Jon

Tim_Murphy

Most people say ITF TKD when they mean Chang ung TKD, I don't see it as a problem.

The ITF is a governing body

The cult of General Choi lives strong today

The ITF is not a governing body in any true sense of the word, it wasn't even when there was just the one ITF, not to mind now when there's 3 (or is it 4?) different 'ITF's. There are no governing bodies in ITF TKD. Oh, and I've been shouted at (in the internet sense of the word obviously) for suggesting that many TKD groups have similiarities to cults, maybe even by you if I remember correctly?

I'd go with him - as long as it wasn't to AIMAA - don't think i'd go back there!

I'd imagine you are safe enough on that count.

Roper

Am I missing something here? Who are you Jon? You can pm me if you don't want publication!!!

Cabelo

Your taekwon-do is obselete.

yomchi

The ITF is not a governing body in any true sense of the word, it wasn't even when there was just the one ITF, not to mind now when there's 3 (or is it 4?) different 'ITF's. There are no governing bodies in ITF TKD. Oh, and I've been shouted at (in the internet sense of the word obviously) for suggesting that many TKD groups have similiarities to cults, maybe even by you if I remember correctly

ITF is a governing body! (wasn't long Tim was it!) In terms of certification, approval of rank, standardisation etc - it governs all of these. Thats why they have committee's etc. If its your opinion that it isn't, thats ok!

I never shouted at you Tim! Not for saying Taekwon-Do is more akin to a cult, sure even General Choi said this himself.

Most people say ITF TKD when they mean Chang ung TKD, I don't see it as a problem

Chang Ung is the President of the North Korean ITF Tim


Its nothing to dwell on and I know people refer to the ITF as a style but it isn't. I could leave the ITF and still practice patterns in the same manner and train in the same manner. Its no big deal but just something I thought I'd point out.

Am I missing something here? Who are you Jon? You can pm me if you don't want publication!!!

Hi Roper, not sure what you mean by missing something! My name is Jon Mackey 2nd degree, member of the IUTF. Living in Dublin, also train in CHKD and boxed since a boy!
Joined AIMAA in early 2002 and left late 2002. Trained up in Turnapin with Master Darcy.

Your taekwon-do is obselete.

Resistance is futile hey? :rolleyes:

Roper

Sorry Jon don't know you but I trained up in Turnapin myself but would have been there after you. Before that I was in the airport with James Farrell. Barry Oglesby is my name, 2nd degree.

I can't place you Jon, I'm racking my rains but I'm sure we met somewhere along the line.

The reason I asked was I missing something was cos I used to be an AIMAA member myself, thought I knew everyone but I guess not!

Navantkd

To be honest, although there are probably 3 'ITF's' , to the man or woman on the ground it really shouldn't make a difference.
Once you are learning TKD which is based on the encyclopedia you should be OK.
I work with a guy training the AIMAA format and the difference in the basic moves and patterns is unbelievable.
I know sparring rules change very much between organisations ie continuous 'points' type sparring to kickboxing etc, but if you're doing Taekwon Do I believe the fundamentals should be as the man who founded it intended and not on somebody's 'interpretation' on it.

Tim_Murphy

I believe the fundamentals should be as the man who founded it intended and not on somebody's 'interpretation' on it.

The traditional part of Chang Hon (my bad Jon) TKD as Gen Choi intended it is basically an interpretation of Karate, with things changed to make it distinctive.

ITF is a governing body! (wasn't long Tim was it!) In terms of certification, approval of rank, standardisation etc - it governs all of these. Thats why they have committee's etc. If its your opinion that it isn't, thats ok!

Jon, it doesn’t really make much sense to say that the ITF is a governing body as there is no ITF as such, there are numerous different groups all using the same name. It doesn’t make sense to identify it as a single entity. You are right in a sense, I’m sure each group does all the things you mention but I don’t think it is really a governing body in the true sense of the word, seeing as each group represent only a very small percentage of the number of people doing ITF TKD. The WTF is a governing body as it oversees the vast majority of WTF style TKD associations and groups. There are very few true governing bodies in MA compared to most sports.

I never shouted at you Tim! Not for saying Taekwon-Do is more akin to a cult, sure even General Choi said this himself.

OK, thought you disagreed with me, plenty of others did anyway. Do you think a cult like minded set is a good one to adopt?

yomchi

Roper wrote:

Sorry Jon don't know you but I trained up in Turnapin myself but would have been there after you. Before that I was in the airport with James Farrell. Barry Oglesby is my name, 2nd degree.

I can't place you Jon, I'm racking my rains but I'm sure we met somewhere along the line.

The reason I asked was I missing something was cos I used to be an AIMAA member myself, thought I knew everyone but I guess not!

No problem Barry, I would have been in AIMAA when Eddie Gavin was there, also Frank Malone, Paul O'Brien, Alex the Romanian guy had also just joined. There was a bit of an exodus in 2002, but for all different reasons.


This me last year (on the left of course!)

yomchi

Roper wrote:

Sorry Jon don't know you but I trained up in Turnapin myself but would have been there after you. Before that I was in the airport with James Farrell. Barry Oglesby is my name, 2nd degree.

I can't place you Jon, I'm racking my rains but I'm sure we met somewhere along the line.

The reason I asked was I missing something was cos I used to be an AIMAA member myself, thought I knew everyone but I guess not!

Roper wrote:

Sorry Jon don't know you but I trained up in Turnapin myself but would have been there after you. Before that I was in the airport with James Farrell. Barry Oglesby is my name, 2nd degree.

I can't place you Jon, I'm racking my rains but I'm sure we met somewhere along the line.

The reason I asked was I missing something was cos I used to be an AIMAA member myself, thought I knew everyone but I guess not!

No problem Barry, I would have been in AIMAA when Eddie Gavin was there, also Frank Malone, Paul O'Brien, Alex the Romanian guy had also just joined. There was a bit of an exodus in 2002, but for all different reasons.

Have a look at my club web site (humble and all as it is )
www.iutf-dublin.com
Maybe we crossed paths in AIMAA at some stage?

Jon

Tim_Murphy

You're uglier than I thought!;)

yomchi

Sorry Mod, messed up with them two posts - it was Tims fault!

Jon, it doesn’t really make much sense to say that the ITF is a governing body as there is no ITF as such, there are numerous different groups all using the same name. It doesn’t make sense to identify it as a single entity. You are right in a sense, I’m sure each group does all the things you mention but I don’t think it is really a governing body in the true sense of the word, seeing as each group represent only a very small percentage of the number of people doing ITF TKD. The WTF is a governing body as it oversees the vast majority of WTF style TKD associations and groups. There are very few true governing bodies in MA compared to most sports.

You have point, but remember each ITF will claim to be the legit one. So each ITF will say it is governing body for Chang Hon TKD. The problem for others outside of the ITF is that when you go looking in the yellow pages for Taekwon-Do you find -
'INTA national governing body for ITF in Ireland' then below it, 'RITA national governing body for ITF in Ireland'.. This is where it all goes belly up, at a local level.

You're uglier than I thought!

Thats my line! should have seen it coming

Ger Healy

Jez I remember all those guys, Sorry Jon I can't remember you.
By the way do you know what Alex is at?

Tim_Murphy

should have seen it coming

Yep!:D

So each ITF will say it is governing body for Chang Hon TKD.

People say a lot of things! Doesn't necessarily make it true.

'INTA national governing body for ITF in Ireland' then below it, 'RITA national governing body for ITF in Ireland'.. This is where it all goes belly up, at a local level.

Exactly. Neither of these groups are an actual governing body for TKD in Ireland but yet they say they are.

Roper

Sorry Jon you're not even remotely familiar! I know the rest alright.

Ger last time I saw Alex was in Turnapin about 9 months ago. Don't know what he's at now.

Hardest kicker I've ever encountered bar none. Nice bloke too.

yomchi

Ger Healy wrote:

Jez I remember all those guys, Sorry Jon I can't remember you.
By the way do you know what Alex is at?

I remember you Ger! albeit vaguely (sp?), I was 3 stone heavier in them days by the way!

Alex was competing with AIMAA at their world champs in 2004. Im met him in town not long ago and he says he's finished with AIMAA and doing Kick Boxing in East Wall I think. The guy had real talent for kicking!

Eddie's back training with the ITF, Paul is also doing a small bit with Stephen Cooley, as for Frank - haven't seen sight nor sound. Eugene as you know is doing the CHKD.

Aww.. no one remembers me! Mustn't have been that good !! I trained up there mostly on saturday mornings with Alex and Declan, a bit of sparring and some video watching with Master D in the 'back room' - LOL anyone who knows what I mean will give a chuckle.. On the week day nights at training I was usually standing beside Quintella in the line.. ring any bells?

yomchi

You're uglier than I thought!

hmmm...

People say a lot of things! Doesn't necessarily make it true

I see what you mean

Ger Healy

Jon wrote:

I remember you Ger! albeit vaguely (sp?), I was 3 stone heavier in them days by the way!

Alex was competing with AIMAA at their world champs in 2004. Im met him in town not long ago and he says he's finished with AIMAA and doing Kick Boxing in East Wall I think. The guy had real talent for kicking!

Eddie's back training with the ITF, Paul is also doing a small bit with Stephen Cooley, as for Frank - haven't seen sight nor sound. Eugene as you know is doing the CHKD.

Aww.. no one remembers me! Mustn't have been that good !! I trained up there mostly on saturday mornings with Alex and Declan, a bit of sparring and some video watching with Master D in the 'back room' - LOL anyone who knows what I mean will give a chuckle.. On the week day nights at training I was usually standing beside Quintella in the line.. ring any bells?

Yea Alex had some nice sharp kicks, I though he went training kickboxing with Jimmy?

I meet Eugene in Galway last weekend at the MMA league

some video watching with Master D in the 'back room'

Yea did a bit of that !!!!

On the week day nights at training I was usually standing beside Quintella in the line.. ring any bells?

Never trained there during the week as i t was a bit of a trek from Limerick

yomchi

Jimmy Courtney? Thats a good possibilty alright. Ah yes Limerick! You held the last GM Cho seminar didn't you? What year was that?

Tim_Murphy

I see what you mean

Doesn't necessarily make it false either.

When I looked at your site the images are a bit all over the place, on top of text etc. Don't know if others are getting this problem, could just be my PC.

Ger Healy

Jon wrote:

Jimmy Courtney? Thats a good possibilty alright. Ah yes Limerick! You held the last GM Cho seminar didn't you? What year was that?

That the man Jimmy Courtney.
He did some ref for me when i held a kickboxing comp for the Irish Cancer Society a few years back. Great guy.

Ah yes Limerick! You held the last GM Cho seminar didn't you? What year was that?

Was it 2003 my memory is not the best old age and all that.

PS: Same problem as Tim when I viewed your web site text seem to blend into pictures.

yomchi

Which page?

Navantkd

Jon wrote:

Sorry Mod, messed up with them two posts - it was Tims fault!



You have point, but remember each ITF will claim to be the legit one. So each ITF will say it is governing body for Chang Hon TKD. The problem for others outside of the ITF is that when you go looking in the yellow pages for Taekwon-Do you find -
'INTA national governing body for ITF in Ireland' then below it, 'RITA national governing body for ITF in Ireland'.. This is where it all goes belly up, at a local level.


Thats my line! should have seen it coming

I wonder what sort of a mess we would have if we all fell under one NGB and one overall ITF with regards to degree numbers? How many duplications are there already? Same with instructor /umpire certs and plaque No.s

Tim_Murphy

I wonder what sort of a mess we would have if we all fell under one NGB and one overall ITF with regards to degree numbers? How many duplications are there already? Same with instructor /umpire certs and plaque No.s

There is no logical reason why thatshould be an issue at all, that's simply an admin problem.
I suppose that some people like wearing their numbers like badges

Roper

Tim,
I never can tell. Are you still an ITF member or what? You're confusing me man my black and white brain can't compute this grey area....

Tim_Murphy

Which page?

The first page when you enter and nearly any page with a picture.

Are you still an ITF member or what? You're confusing me man my black and white brain can't compute this grey area....

LOL. To put your mind at rest Sir Roper, no, I'm in no way involved with the ITF or indeed with TKD at all anymore. LUMA all the way!:)