This is just sickening!

Hobart

Hobbes wrote:

You can argue all you want. You are wrong. There is no central voice to the religon so it is open to interpretation by various Imans. They are living in an Islamic way, but thier interpretation of it.

Seriously, its like saying that Protestants are Roman Catholics. Or comparing Christian fundies to normal Christians.

Incidently if I was you I would go read up on how these fanatics in Iran got into power.

I'm not arguing with the facts. I accept that there is no central voice, big deal tbh.

I would argue that a country with 98% of the population Islamic could, in all reasonability, an Islamic country and are representitive of the Islamic faith, what ever that kind of Islamic faith in that country would be (are they Fundie Islamics? non-fundie ones? Which?).

I would never equate Protestants to RC's, that's ignorant. I would call them christians though. Christian fundies are christians, just fundamental ones.


As for the power rise, I'm probably a bit older than you give me credit for, I lived through the Shaa and his overthrow.

flogen

Hobart wrote:

From the second link I put up:

Article 170 [Control of Regulations]
Judges of courts are obliged to refrain from executing statutes and regulations of the government that are in conflict with the laws or the norms of Islam, or lie outside the competence of the executive power. Everyone has the right to demand the annulment of any such regulation from the Court of Administrative Justice.

There are lots more, but I have linked to the parent documents. What about the actual question I posed in the piece you quoted from.

So the law cannot oppose the laws and norms of Islamic teaching; however I don't know of (but am open to correction) any Islamic teaching which specifically covers what should be done in this case (when someone kills someone who is attempting to rape them). In other words, this decision was made on an interpretation of Islamic law, I'm not sure how good or bad an interpretation that is, but I cannot see it as being one based too heavily on Islamic faith.

Maybe you would like to qualify why you feel that a country which has a population of over 68 million, of which, 98% practices the Islamic faith is not representitive of Islam?

I don't think it's fair to suggest that each Muslim in Iran agree entirely with the Supreme Leader, the President or the Legal representatives of the state. For all we know this decision is abhorred by 97% of the population, or it could be supported by the same amount.

Baggly

Hobbes wrote:

Sorry for the misunderstanding. I am not saying we (as Ireland) had a part in Abu Garib, however the Western media has seriously played down what went on there. The documentry shows everything and there is only a small portion of it shown in Western media and then mostly pictures similar to the first set.

Incidently you can watch the full documentry here.
http://onegoodmove.org/1gm/1gmarchive/2006/02/abu_ghraib_redu.html

Then go look at some of the Western papers to see what matches up (you can use Bagnews for examples)

it seems to me that bagnews seems to be focusing too much on this issue. i concede that it deserves more attention than some of the 'western', and i still hate that word, papers have been giving it, but your asking me to compare a news source that gave a small amount of coverage to a news source that gave too large an amount of coverage, imo

metrovelvet

flogen wrote:

I don't think the actions of the state of Iran is truely representative of the Islamic faith.
It's ignorant for you to assume otherwise.

Yes and its not the KKK who are the racists, its just the extremist ones. :rolleyes:

Greenhorse

Hey People,

Lots of bashing of Islam here. Lots of bashing of people bashing Islam and lots of .........

bla bla bla.

Anybody who has the time should call into the Chester Beatty library in Dublin Castle. explaines the difference between the different branches of Islam. Just like christianity they are splintered and neither one likes the other.

BTW. How did these people get in charge of Iran. Oh thats right the Allies of old proclamed a Shah to rule Iran and to be a bit of a pal to the west. Unfortunatly he wasnt very well liked by his people so was overthrown and the present status was reached.

So what did the Allies of old do next ? Lets give lots of money and amunition to Iraq to fight the pesky new govnt of Iran. While we are at it lets thro lots of money and amunition at the Mujahadin (Binny Layden et al) to fight the pesky Russians in Afganastan.

And finally lets ignore the fact that 80% of the 9/11 suicide bombers were Saudi and thats where all the 9/11 funding came from and go and topple our previous mates in Iraq because they are getting a bit uppity.


Lets go out and earn some money and bring our girlfriends/wifes out on the town and enjoy what we have and stop slinging mud thru the air.

Rgds,

Niall

.

flogen

metrovelvet wrote:

Yes and its not the KKK who are the racists, its just the extremist ones. :rolleyes:

Explain that please.
Are you trying to say that Islam is as extreme as the KKK?

flogen

Greenhorse wrote:

Hey People,

Lots of bashing of Islam here. Lots of bashing of people bashing Islam and lots of .........

bla bla bla.

Anybody who has the time should call into the Chester Beatty library in Dublin Castle. explaines the difference between the different branches of Islam. Just like christianity they are splintered and neither one likes the other.

BTW. How did these people get in charge of Iran. Oh thats right the Allies of old proclamed a Shah to rule Iran and to be a bit of a pal to the west. Unfortunatly he wasnt very well liked by his people so was overthrown and the present status was reached.

So what did the Allies of old do next ? Lets give lots of money and amunition to Iraq to fight the pesky new govnt of Iran. While we are at it lets thro lots of money and amunition at the Mujahadin (Binny Layden et al) to fight the pesky Russians in Afganastan.

And finally lets ignore the fact that 80% of the 9/11 suicide bombers were Saudi and thats where all the 9/11 funding came from and go and topple our previous mates in Iraq because they are getting a bit uppity.


Lets go out and earn some money and bring our girlfriends/wifes out on the town and enjoy what we have and stop slinging mud thru the air.

Rgds,

Niall

.

This thread has already developed into something that would probably suit better in the Islam forum, please lets not move even more off topic.

Hobbes

petermonaghan wrote:

it seems to me that bagnews seems to be focusing too much on this issue. i concede that it deserves more attention than some of the 'western', and i still hate that word, papers have been giving it, but your asking me to compare a news source that gave a small amount of coverage to a news source that gave too large an amount of coverage, imo

Well fine, then pick various western papers and see what was printed vs the documentry. I am not sure what you mean by they are focusing too much on the issue. It is one article.

Wibbs

Hobbes wrote:

Agreed. But I would love to see a bit of perspective in the whole thing. We go on about how terrible country X is that doesn't follow our ideals when the truth generally is that the west is often as bad. We just have watered down media.

There is validity in that, certainly. Both western and eastern media are guilty of it.

You can argue all you want. You are wrong. There is no central voice to the religon so it is open to interpretation by various Imans. They are living in an Islamic way, but thier interpretation of it.

Very true. While there are consistancies, the lack of a central authority causes problems.

Capt'n Midnight wrote:

Sharia law isn't the same as Islam is it ?
Are there different interpretations of it ?

It depends on your viewpoint. Unlike Christianity(and others), Islam from the start, set down more complete and complex rules and regulations for everyday life. There is less seperation of church and state and arms of same. Sharia law would be a large part of that. The wiki article is a good starting point for further study http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sharia_law (and the rebuttal page too). The Islam forum would be another place to check out.

IIRC Sharia law means that a woman needs four male witnesses to be able to prove an allegation of rape. Otherwise there may be the possibility that she could be accused of adultary

In the more extreme examples of Sharia, it's not just rape but any serious crime where a woman's testimony is worth half a man's. This is debated by many progressive Muslim scholars, however. The latter bit doesn't get the headlines though, nearly as much as the uneducated 'primitives' stoning and hanging people.

There are two sides to this. Sadly if the media keep promoting the nuttyier guff it may just act as advertising for it.

Freddie59

flogen wrote:

Explain that please.
Are you trying to say that Islam is as extreme as the KKK?

Well I'd say that haging a girl for murdering an "attempted rapist" comes very close. We can argue this East/West BS all night. This is savagery at it's worst. It belongs in the Middle Ages - with those bigoted "religious" "zealots" who practice this barbarity. Shades of Afghanistan.:mad:

The kkk hated blacks and treated them like a sub species.

Islam behaves similarly with women.

Coincidental?

Freedoms in Iran:

http://setad.org/foto/FOTO-S/befor&today/Before-After.htm

flogen

Freddie59 wrote:

Well I'd say that haging a girl for murdering an "attempted rapist" comes very close. We can argue this East/West BS all night. This is savagery at it's worst. It belongs in the Middle Ages - with those bigoted "religious" "zealots" who practice this barbarity. Shades of Afghanistan.:mad:

The kkk hated blacks and treated them like a sub species.

Islam behaves similarly with women.

Coincidental?

Freedoms in Iran:

http://setad.org/foto/FOTO-S/befor&today/Before-After.htm

I agree in so far as to say that this is savagery and it is not something that should be accepted; but I have seen nothing to suggest that this punishment was handed down in the name of real Islamic practice, why are people criticising the religion of a country rather than the country itself?
Ireland's constitution gives a special place for Catholicism but that doesn't mean it's catholicism's fault that the Irish Government allows US planes through shannon (despite the fact that they are going to fight an illegal war).
I know it's a bit different, but I can't see anyone except the Iranians claim that this act was Islamic.

Hagar

Obviously the girl should have allowed the men to commit the rape and when they had left, if she was still alive, she should have informed the proper authorities who would have dealt with the matter in a manner befitting the public good.

Freddie59

flogen wrote:

I agree in so far as to say that this is savagery and it is not something that should be accepted; but I have seen nothing to suggest that this punishment was handed down in the name of real Islamic practice, why are people criticising the religion of a country rather than the country itself?
Ireland's constitution gives a special place for Catholicism but that doesn't mean it's catholicism's fault that the Irish Government allows US planes through shannon (despite the fact that they are going to fight an illegal war).
I know it's a bit different, but I can't see anyone except the Iranians claim that this act was Islamic.

I see where you're coming from. I suppose the Islamic/Iranian thing is becoming very muddied, purely because people see things like this (and the cartoon issue) as the Islamic religion being used as an excuse to terrorise others.

The nub of the issue is the fact that they're using religion as an excuse for everything - the treatment of women seems to be a solely Arab/Islamic issue. In fact, 65 years ago in Ireland women were treated very similarly - only difference was they didn't have to wear that ridiculous getup(and could actually go to the beach, out in public, etc).

luckat

Two separate points.

First, a country can't be judged by isolated events, no matter how extreme those are. Take Ireland a few years ago, with the Kerry Babies, the Donegal gardai, Ann Lovett - you'd imagine that this was a church- and state-power-ridden, primitive country, but it wasn't.

Second, as several people have said, it's not unique to Muslim countries that unjust sentences happen - there's a play touring the world at the moment about an American couple sentenced to death for a murder they didn't commit. The man was executed in the electric chair; the woman served 16 years - even though the real murderer confessed three times after the trial.

Hagar

luckat wrote:

Two separate points.

First, a country can't be judged by isolated events, no matter how extreme those are. Take Ireland a few years ago, with the Kerry Babies, the Donegal gardai, Ann Lovett - you'd imagine that this was a church- and state-power-ridden, primitive country, but it wasn't.

I disagree Ireland was a Church ridden state and those events were typical of overall attitudes at the time

luckat wrote:

Second, as several people have said, it's not unique to Muslim countries that unjust sentences happen - there's a play touring the world at the moment about an American couple sentenced to death for a murder they didn't commit. The man was executed in the electric chair; the woman served 16 years - even though the real murderer confessed three times after the trial

May I point out the difference between a blatant miscarriage of justice and a system which is blatantly unjust.

Freddie59

luckat wrote:

Two separate points.

First, a country can't be judged by isolated events, no matter how extreme those are. Take Ireland a few years ago, with the Kerry Babies, the Donegal gardai, Ann Lovett - you'd imagine that this was a church- and state-power-ridden, primitive country, but it wasn't.

I would agree to a degree. But the difficulty I would have with it is that if you commint a crime here you won't have your head/limb, etc amputated. And a lot of the justice parctised in those countries is instantaneous. Although, given the revolving door justice system we have here at present, some of it wouldn't go astray here.

rsynnott

mike65 wrote:

No its the House of Saud that truly represnts Islam....or is it Ozzy Bin Liner, or is it the Talliban?....etc

The simple truth is no "Christian" (if I may use that as shorthand) court would pass such a sentence.

Mike.

I'd be cautious of saying that. Many christian-dominated and officially christian countries in the developing world have rather harsh laws.

metrovelvet

Like where rsynnott? Ireland? lol.

metrovelvet

flogen wrote:

I agree in so far as to say that this is savagery and it is not something that should be accepted; but I have seen nothing to suggest that this punishment was handed down in the name of real Islamic practice, why are people criticising the religion of a country rather than the country itself?
Ireland's constitution gives a special place for Catholicism but that doesn't mean it's catholicism's fault that the Irish Government allows US planes through shannon (despite the fact that they are going to fight an illegal war).
I know it's a bit different, but I can't see anyone except the Iranians claim that this act was Islamic.

Right. And the magdalene laundries had nothing to do with real Catholic practices. Nor did the beatings by the Christian brothers. Nor did the law which said its ok to rape a woman if your married to her, nor did the all the raping of little boys that took place. Give me a break. DO you think those things would have happened anywhere else but Ireland and perhaps the Middle East?

Ilegal war ... blah blah blah.... it doesnt change the nature of Islam whether this war is legal or not. They were like this before. Just ask my friend who lost his baby sister in the Lockerbie tragedy.

Is it Catholicisms fault that the Irish government allowed the systematic abuse of women and children for decades. Is it the governements fault that the Irish people let it happen through their passivity and denial? Yes yes yes it is.

You can't be a moderate in Islam. Its like saying I'm in the KKK but im a moderate. The extremist control the moderates. You guys need to wake up. These people are not our friends.

There is no separation of church and state in islam thats why you cant separate criticising islam from the countries that practise it.
luckat - I agree that the US has to get rid of the death penalty. It degrades all of us, it degrades respect for human life. IMO.

rsynnott

metrovelvet wrote:

Like where rsynnott? Ireland? lol.

We are, fortunately, no longer a Christian country. We, of course, used to be a Christian nightmare.

rsynnott

metrovelvet wrote:

You can't be a moderate in Islam. Its like saying I'm in the KKK but im a moderate. The extremist control the moderates. You guys need to wake up. These people are not our friends.

Really? Twenty years ago, some might have said that you couldn't be a moderate Catholic in Ireland; you have yourself pointed out some of the horrors perpetrated in the name of Catholicism. Few modern Catholics would agree with most of them.

metrovelvet

rsynnott wrote:

We are, fortunately, no longer a Christian country. We, of course, used to be a Christian nightmare.

You know the last magdalene laundry closed in 1996? You know that students in third level colleges in the northwest often take off the first friday to go to mass? You know they close on holy days of obligation? [which I know is illegal, but that doesnt stop them].

You know the parishes still dont release the records on children given up for adoption and sold to families by the clergy?

Theres a lot more work to be done.

*mod edit*

I think up until 1990 you couldnt have been moderate in Ireland without facing serious consequences.

Remind me what year did Virgin start selling condoms? And when did divorce come in? When did they decriminalise homosexuality?

rsynnott

metrovelvet wrote:

You know the last magdalene laundry closed in 1996? You know that students in third level colleges in the northwest often take off the first friday to go to mass? You know they close on holy days of obligation? [which I know is illegal, but that doesnt stop them].

I know of the recent closure of the Magdalene laundries. I didn't know the thing about the colleges. Though I would support the right of people to observe whatever religious ceremonies they feel they should.

metrovelvet wrote:

You know the parishes still dont release the records on children given up for adoption and sold to families by the clergy?

I do.

Theres a lot more work to be done.

Undoubtedly. The point is, we are civilising. Islam can do the same. Some Islamic countries have started; look at Turkey, and at Iran before the Islamic Revolution.

*mod edit*

I think up until 1990 you couldnt have been moderate in Ireland without facing serious consequences.

Remind me what year did Virgin start selling condoms? And when did divorce come in? When did they decriminalise homosexuality?

I realise all of this. I'm gay myself; if I'd been born fifteen years earlier I'd have had to emigrate. The point is that we are improving. So can other former extremists.

In any case, we are hardly unique in this sort of thing. People were arrested for homosexuality in Texas in the 21st century, for instance.

metrovelvet

*mod edit*

Yes, its true Ireland is improving, though watching today's riots one wouldn't think so.

Well what would you say motivated the Irish to reform from extremism to something less crazy? Was it money?

What do you think would motivate Arab nations to a more moderate stance?

flogen

metrovelvet wrote:

Right. And the magdalene laundries had nothing to do with real Catholic practices. Nor did the beatings by the Christian brothers. Nor did the law which said its ok to rape a woman if your married to her, nor did the all the raping of little boys that took place. Give me a break. DO you think those things would have happened anywhere else but Ireland and perhaps the Middle East?

Ilegal war ... blah blah blah.... it doesnt change the nature of Islam whether this war is legal or not. They were like this before. Just ask my friend who lost his baby sister in the Lockerbie tragedy.

Is it Catholicisms fault that the Irish government allowed the systematic abuse of women and children for decades. Is it the governements fault that the Irish people let it happen through their passivity and denial? Yes yes yes it is.

You can't be a moderate in Islam. Its like saying I'm in the KKK but im a moderate. The extremist control the moderates. You guys need to wake up. These people are not our friends.

There is no separation of church and state in islam thats why you cant separate criticising islam from the countries that practise it.
luckat - I agree that the US has to get rid of the death penalty. It degrades all of us, it degrades respect for human life. IMO.

You've pretty much proven my point; the Magdelene laundries were state-level failings, and church corruptions, I don't think they're reflective of real Catholicism, or the teachings of the Bible, do you?
In the same breath I don't think you can prove your assumption that this trial is reflective of the real teachings of Islam, it may be reflective of the perversions Islam has suffered at the hands of extremism, but that's the same as what happened in Ireland years ago

flogen

metro, I've edited your post, this forum is not one for rumour or hearsay, nor is it the place for the discussion of politicians personal lives.

metrovelvet

Ok flogen, I can see why you did that although I dont see his marital status as private. He is a public figure and marriage is a public insitutution. He flaunts his adultery for the whole world to see, including statesmen and their wives. It doesnt seem that private imo.

But I will accept your editing my post due to it being hearsay.

Well I don't think the abominations of the RC Church are reflective of the teachings of Christ or the disciples. Or the vision Christ had for a religion.

So I can be clear - when I say Catholicism - I do not mean the teachings of Jesus.

When I say Islam - I do not mean the teachings of Mohammad.

What I am referring to is the sub and superstructures, the culture and the power relationships which exist in the religion [creed, doctrine, sacriments] and what that promotes among its followers and how it chooses to pervert scripture. Every reading is perversion, there is no one way to interpret anything, and if you think there is, then you would be in with the fundies, as that is one of their clear identifiers, absolutism in interpretation.

I think you may be confusing the religion for what it's SUPPOSED to be rather than for what it is.

The Magdalene laundries were also empowerd by the families who sent their daughters there, by the guards who were called to lock them back up, sanctioned by the church goers who took communion out of chalice paid for by that free labour, by the department of education who could give a crap. It called brainwashing. The Irish sufferred from it just as ME muslims do.

Although, even at their worst, no Irish person flew planes into buildings, and they still managed to contribute to this world, albeit via immigration. Though there was extremism in Ireland, I think the ME has hit a new height altogether with it.

rsynnott

metrovelvet wrote:

Well what would you say motivated the Irish to reform from extremism to something less crazy? Was it money?

What do you think would motivate Arab nations to a more moderate stance?

Money? No, I don't think so. Ireland's descent into extremism seems to have come largely from the perceived evils of the nominally COE UK at the time of independence, and the need to be clearly a different country, and went away gradually. Things started improving in the 70s, and were largely complete by the early 90s; the recent economic boom doesn't seem to have had much to do with it.

I would imagine that the Arab nations are pretty much the same. The sort of extremism we are seeing now is in many cases worse than how those countries were historically, and I suspect a lot of it is to do with the perceived evils of the secularised western and Middle Eastern nations (Turkey, Iraq, Iran pre-revolution), and of Jewish/secular Israel. It's reactionary, and may die away, although Iraq now looks set to join Iran. I'd think continued expansion of Europe may help, as will the ending of Saudi's special relationship with the US (where one of the western powers implicitly sanctions extremism of the worst kind for economic reasons), and some sort of peace in Israel/Palestine.

metrovelvet wrote:

Ok flogen, I can see why you did that although I dont see his marital status as private. He is a public figure and marriage is a public insitutution. He flaunts his adultery for the whole world to see, including statesmen and their wives. It doesnt seem that private imo.

Adultery seems an extreme word, in view of the circumstances. They're legally separated.

metrovelvet wrote:

Well I don't think the abominations of the RC Church are reflective of the teachings of Christ or the disciples. Or the vision Christ had for a religion.

Are the teachings of any church? Organised religions, whether they be Christian, Islamic or Jewish sects, tend to pick and choose which bits of the religion they like. And did Jesus really set out to found a religion? While I am not a theologian, the New Testament really doesn't read that way to me.

metrovelvet wrote:

So I can be clear - when I say Catholicism - I do not mean the teachings of Jesus.

When I say Islam - I do not mean the teachings of Mohammad.

Well, then, you're being quite inconsistent. Islam DOES describe the teachings of Muhammad. You should name a sect, and, considering the disorganised nature of modern Islam, a location. Would you talk about Catholic misdeeds as being Christian ones?

metrovelvet wrote:

Although, even at their worst, no Irish person flew planes into buildings, and they still managed to contribute to this world, albeit via immigration. Though there was extremism in Ireland, I think the ME has hit a new height altogether with it.

Again, you're generalising enormously. The Middle East encompasses modern Turkey, it also encompasses Israel. Neither are fundamentalist states. And, of course, while no Irish people flew planes into buildings, a number did blow up shopping centers and so forth. That doesn't mean they were ALL bad.

metrovelvet

Rsynnott-

I agree that adultery is a strong word, and legally a correct one. Mrs. Ahern still sustains all legal rights as a wife I believe. But in the eyes of the religion, he is an adulterer. So, thats why I don't get what he's doing. Its like a Jew who professes to be conservative but eats pork and marries a shiksta and isnt circumsized. What? So if he is so Catholic how does he exempt himself?

Yes, well, flogen seems to distinguish between the "real" religion and what are the widespread practises of the perverted. No, I would not say that Catholicism reflects the entirety of Christianity. Though if I were to meet them on their terms I would, as they think they are the one universal faith. Yes if you say so ratzi.

Yes your right about the ME. I shouldnt include Isreal or the Western part of Turkey [although some say thats questionable now too]. And yes, in future I will be more specific about nationhood in regards to Islam. After all Irish Catholicism was a special breed. I doubt the Italians got the beatings we did.

Yes, Im not sure Jesus set out to follow a religion either. And this is part of why I do make a distinction between religions and the scriptures they use/manipulate. Just as I make a distinction between the Koran/Mohammad and what people are practising as an expression of this. Certainly the Black American Muslims [inherited from Malcolm X] on Times Square shouting things out about the evil white man jew have a different agenda than the Muslims in Palestine. Or do they? This is it - I just dont know anymore.

Ok - Irish nationalism, its only in the past 15 years that revisionism has provided an alternative debate. Certainly my father's generation who all learned the Christian brothers version of history and handed it down to their children in America, would have all had nationalist sympathies, even if they are not blowing up pubs in London. Its an ideological continnum. That doesnt make them all bad, but all part of a continuous political thread/web. I mean Irish America isnt bad, but it has been funding this crap for a long time, does that make them bad or just fools?

rsynnott

metrovelvet wrote:

Rsynnott-

I agree that adultery is a strong word, and legally a correct one. Mrs. Ahern still sustains all legal rights as a wife I believe. But in the eyes of the religion, he is an adulterer. So, thats why I don't get what he's doing. Its like a Jew who professes to be conservative but eats pork and marries a shiksta and isnt circumsized. What? So if he is so Catholic how does he exempt himself?

Is Bertie Ahern 'so Catholic'? I missed that one. I'm not sure offhand of the legal status of someone one who is legally separated, but I doubt that they can legally be held to be committing adultery, if indeed there is a formal legal concept of adultery at the moment.