Ruling question I should already know the answer to.

Jaden

Are blinds considered bets in the opening round of betting?

For example, on the flop, turn and river the first player to act may do so at any value above the big blind. Say a bet of 750 with blinds at 250/500.

Preflop, can a player who is first to act raise less than the BB, or is his bet considered a raise of the BB?

jtsuited

i know online you can make a bet on the flop,turn and river of at least the big blind or greater. Not sure about live, but i think it's the same

5starpool

The minimum any player can put into the pot (providing they have at least that many chips) is the equal amount to the BB. If they wish to raise they must double the BB, so in the example above it must be 1000.

On the internet, and hence, possibly in American cardrooms it is slightly different. You must raise at least the amount of the previous raise.

e.g sb 100, bb 200, utg 400, you 600 is ok I believe, even though it messes my head somewhat.

Jaden

I would think that all raises on all streets must double the bet into a player. For example, post flop in a 100/200 game, a player may bet 400, but a subsequent raise must be to 800, and a subsequent re-raise must be 1600. Otherwise you could be there all night with people "bidding" at one another.

Post flop on a 100/200 game, I see no reason why a player with no action before him cannot bet 300 in chips. My question is, can this be done pre-flop, if a player has no action before him? ie, are blinds considered live bets that must be raised?

I am almost certain I've done this while playing on-line..... Hence the question.

5starpool

Jaden wrote:

I would think that all raises on all streets must double the bet into a player. For example, post flop in a 100/200 game, a player may bet 400, but a subsequent raise must be to 800, and a subsequent re-raise must be 1600. Otherwise you could be there all night with people "bidding" at one another.

Post flop on a 100/200 game, I see no reason why a player with no action before him cannot bet 300 in chips. My question is, can this be done pre-flop, if a player has no action before him? ie, are blinds considered live bets that must be raised?

I am almost certain I've done this while playing on-line..... Hence the question.

Online or offline, if the BB is 200 then you cannot bet between 200-400. It must either be exactly 200 or at least 400. Reraising rules are different online than offline as I suggested.

Offline if someone bets 500 on the flop, is reraised to 1200, then if he wishes to reraise again he must double the total of the previous bet i.e. 2400.

Online in this situation, it can go 500, 1200, 1900 as the RAISE is only by 700, and that is the raise that must be used when min re-raising.

I think this is confusing and should be double the bet, not the raise, but there you go.

brianmc

Jaden wrote:

I would think that all raises on all streets must double the bet into a player. For example, post flop in a 100/200 game, a player may bet 400, but a subsequent raise must be to 800, and a subsequent re-raise must be 1600. Otherwise you could be there all night with people "bidding" at one another.

Post flop on a 100/200 game, I see no reason why a player with no action before him cannot bet 300 in chips. My question is, can this be done pre-flop, if a player has no action before him? ie, are blinds considered live bets that must be raised?

I am almost certain I've done this while playing on-line..... Hence the question.

You are correct to consider the BB a bet. If someone wants to raise it, they must at least double it.

Jaden

Therefore, in a 100/200 game:

Preflop. - The player first to act must either call 200, or raise at least 400.

Post flop. - The player first to act must bet at least 200, but there is nothing to stop him betting 300. A raise of this bet would be to 600.

Conclusion. You can bet less on the flop than preflop, if you are first to act?

brianmc

Jaden wrote:

Therefore, in a 100/200 game:

Preflop. - The player first to act must either call 200, or raise at least 400.

Post flop. - The player first to act must bet at least 200, but there is nothing to stop him betting 300. A raise of this bet would be to 600.

Conclusion. You can bet less on the flop than preflop, if you are first to act?

eh... yeah...

I guess so.

you have it correct.

5starpool

Jaden wrote:

Conclusion. You can bet less on the flop than preflop, if you are first to act?

Yes and no. What you are saying can happen, and if you wish to interpret it that way then so be it, but the way of thinking is that postflop, if you are first to act you make the initial bet, which is the postflop benchmark for sebsequent bets, preflop that benchmark is the BB.

Saying you can bet less is not correct. If someone makes it 200 postflop before you act then it is the same restrictions as preflop. It all depends on the highest aciton to date.

brianmc

5starpool wrote:

Yes and no. What you are saying can happen, and if you wish to interpret it that way then so be it, but the way of thinking is that postflop, if you are first to act you make the initial bet, which is the postflop benchmark for sebsequent bets, preflop that benchmark is the BB.

Saying you can bet less is not correct. If someone makes it 200 postflop before you act then it is the same restrictions as preflop. It all depends on the highest aciton to date.

Or in other words, yes. You have it correct.

Jaden

Cheers guys.

5starpool

brianmc wrote:

Or in other words, yes. You have it correct.

don't split hairs with me, god knows I have few enough of them left!!!

It is correct to say that the actions he has stated are correct. It is not correct to say that you can bet less postflop than preflop. Postflop if you are raising a bet, as opposed to making the first bet, then the minimum you will raise to will be 400 in this example, depending on the bet in front of you. As you well know 'poster-formerly -known-as-bmc'. :rolleyes:

brianmc

5starpool wrote:

don't split hairs with me, god knows I have few enough of them left!!!

It is correct to say that the actions he has stated are correct. It is not correct to say that you can bet less postflop than preflop. Postflop if you are raising a bet, as opposed to making the first bet, then the minimum you will raise to will be 400 in this example, depending on the bet in front of you. As you well know 'poster-formerly -known-as-bmc'. :rolleyes:

I don't want to put you on tilt... but..




Nah, I get you.

I forget sometimes that a thread serves a purpose to the lurking masses as well as to the original poster, whom I think... got it correct.

Mr. Flibble

5starpool wrote:

Online or offline, if the BB is 200 then you cannot bet between 200-400. It must either be exactly 200 or at least 400.

I might be missing somthing here, but online you can bet anything above the BB. It doesn't have to be 2x the BB (on Tribecca and Vegasbaby at least).

brianmc

Mr. Flibble wrote:

I might be missing somthing here, but online you can bet anything above the BB. It doesn't have to be 2x the BB (on Tribecca and Vegasbaby at least).

To raise the BB it will have to be at least twice.

BigDragon

brianmc wrote:

To raise the BB it will have to be at least twice.

Unfortunately not on all sites..

brianmc

BigDragon wrote:

Unfortunately not on all sites..

eugh...


It seems that I live a sheltered online existance... thank god.

BigDragon

brianmc wrote:

eugh...


It seems that I live a sheltered online existance... thank god.

Seen it live as well in England and USA. We are spoilt rotten by Luke Ivory. Having started my poker life at the Fitz I soon realised what a great cardroom manager he is.

brianmc

BigDragon wrote:

Seen it live as well in England and USA. We are spoilt rotten by Luke Ivory. Having started my poker life at the Fitz I soon realised what a great cardroom manager he is.

Yeah, I realised that. I just hadn't realised the depths of the depravity that he was protecting us from.

Mr. Flibble

brianmc wrote:

To raise the BB it will have to be at least twice.

5starpool

And what is that meant to show us? Both of those are more than twice the big blind??????? No one is suggesting exactly twice is the only raise. It has to be at least exactly twice.

Mr. Flibble

5starpool wrote:

And what is that meant to show us? Both of those are more than twice the big blind??????? No one is suggesting exactly twice is the only raise. It has to be at least exactly twice.

I think we have misunderstood each other here. To me a 'raise' is the amount more than the previous person you put in the pot. So the raise in the multiplayerpoker picture is of 7. I think you see the raise as 13.

The call was of 6 and the raise of 7. Not a raise of 13.

To clarify this in both pictures I posted the big blind of 6 (as i had just sat down) and then raised 7 (8 in the vcpoker pic) when the action got round to me.

So are we saying the same thing, but just meaning different things by 'raise'?

brianmc

Mr. Flibble wrote:

I think we have misunderstood each other here. To me a 'raise' is the amount more than the previous person you put in the pot. So the raise in the multiplayerpoker picture is of 7. I think you see the raise as 13.

The call was of 6 and the raise of 7. Not a raise of 13.

To clarify this in both pictures I posted the big blind of 6 (as i had just sat down) and then raised 7 (8 in the vcpoker pic) when the action got round to me.

So are we saying the same thing, but just meaning different things by 'raise'?

Yep. I think ye are at crossed purposes.

(Over here anyway) it is more common in live play to announce the total amount of the bet rather than the amount you are raising by. <-- that may not be relevant to anything.

Mr. Flibble

Jaden wrote:

Therefore, in a 100/200 game:
Preflop. - The player first to act must either call 200, or raise at least 400.

This is what threw me off. I would have phrased it "The player first to act must either call 200, or raise at least to 400."

"The player first to act must either call 200, or raise to at least 400." is good too

RoundTower

It is a raise of 7, or a raise to 13.

If you are using the rule that the new bet must be at least double the old bet (Ireland) then it makes sense to think of it as "raise to". Then you have blinds 100, 200, raise to 400, minimum raise to 800.

If you are using the other rule, that each raise must increase the bet by at least as much as the previous raise or bet (US/online) then it is easier to think "raise 7". So blinds 100, 200, raise another 500, raise another 500, raise another 500, etc.

Both rules are in widespread use.

Derek C.

Can someone clarify?

Don't you only have to double the raise/BB so the betting is.......

1. Blinds 100/200 - 400 - 600 - 800 and so on.

I know people say that it should be.........

2. Blinds 100/200 - 400 - 800 - 1600 - 3200 and so on.

But doesnt that contradict the Internet, the Wsop, and any rules I have read before?

** Sorry if this seems like a tedious question but i'm getting the feeling that Europe and America do things differently **

5starpool

Derek C. wrote:

Can someone clarify?

Don't you only have to double the raise/BB so the betting is.......

1. Blinds 100/200 - 400 - 600 - 800 and so on.

I know people say that it should be.........

2. Blinds 100/200 - 400 - 800 - 1600 - 3200 and so on.

But doesnt that contradict the Internet, the Wsop, and any rules I have read before?

** Sorry if this seems like a tedious question but i'm getting the feeling that Europe and America do things differently **

Read RoundTowers post above. It says what I did earlier about there being 2 different methods used which result in different raises. One uses bet totals, one uses raise amounts. Subtle, but important differences.

Mr. Flibble

I have to say that I perfer the US way of doing it. In limit poker the raise value is always the same (in Ireland too I would imagine, it must be!) and I don't see why when you change to no-limit play the rules for a minimum bet should change.

RoundTower

Mr. Flibble wrote:

I have to say that I perfer the US way of doing it. In limit poker the raise value is always the same (in Ireland too I would imagine, it must be!) and I don't see why when you change to no-limit play the rules for a minimum bet should change.

Firstly, the raise value is usually different in limit poker, depending on the street. Most limit hold'em games have bets which are twice as big on fourth and fifth street as they are preflop and on the flop. What do you think the minimum bet should be in no limit on the turn?

Secondly, the maximum amount you can bet in a hand changes when you change to no-limit or pot-limit play. So it's not a big step to change the minimum amount too.

But I think the real reason we do it this way here is because it makes it easy on the dealers.

Mr. Flibble

RoundTower wrote:

Firstly, the raise value is usually different in limit poker, depending on the street. Most limit hold'em games have bets which are twice as big on fourth and fifth street as they are preflop and on the flop. What do you think the minimum bet should be in no limit on the turn?

Yes. I take your point.

OilBeefHooked2

Mr. Flibble wrote:

I have to say that I perfer the US way of doing it. In limit poker the raise value is always the same (in Ireland too I would imagine, it must be!) and I don't see why when you change to no-limit play the rules for a minimum bet should change.

omg what are you on?

coming from someone whose two examples were on play money, imo i think you dont know what ur talking about atall atall :eek: do you?

Mr. Flibble

david-k wrote:

omg what are you on?

coming from someone whose two examples were on play money, imo i think you dont know what ur talking about atall atall :eek: do you?

Do you not see my point that keeping the rules similar to limit makes things more simple? I don't think either format can be considered the right one, but I'm just saying I perfer the US way of doing things as it keeps things simpler.


And David, would you think me smarter (or more informed) if I sat down at a real money table and threw away a blind and raise (even if an improper US one) to create an example for you?