summons

ronbyrne2005

a member of the gardai has just knocked at my home and presented me with a summons-such a thoughtful fella.i couldnt remember what i had done wrong untill i read it.they are charging me with "offensive language " under section 5 1994 criminal justice act. i was in grafton street early one sunday mornign after leaving a nightclub,there was a busker with around fifty people around him and everyone was enjoying the craic. the gardai arrived and ordered him to move along and i complained that the guards should leave him alone as he was doing no harm,i may have said "for fuks sake" during my little rant but i was tired and emotional!
anyway can i get a criminal offence from this?? seems a little trivial to drag me to court for,i had no idea the policeman was taking it so serious.i may have been a bit obnoxious to him so maybe he's getting his revenge on me.

Binomate

Deny everything and file a rape complaint against the Garda! There is a legal discussion board now by the way.

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/forumdisplay.php?forumid=633


The cheapest way out of this would just be to go to court and accept what ever fine you are given.

LundiMardi

ronbyrne2005 wrote:

a member of the gardai has just knocked at my home and presented me with a summons-such a thoughtful fella.i couldnt remember what i had done wrong untill i read it.they are charging me with "offensive language " under section 5 1994 criminal justice act. i was in grafton street early one sunday mornign after leaving a nightclub,there was a busker with around fifty people around him and everyone was enjoying the craic. the gardai arrived and ordered him to move along and i complained that the guards should leave him alone as he was doing no harm,i may have said "for fuks sake" during my little rant but i was tired and emotional!
anyway can i get a criminal offence from this?? seems a little trivial to drag me to court for,i had no idea the policeman was taking it so serious.i may have been a bit obnoxious to him so maybe he's getting his revenge on me.

that's just ****ing redicilous, since when is it an offence to swear??

casanova_kid

why don't they ever get proper scumbags.

Binomate

LundiMardi wrote:

that's just ****ing redicilous, since when is it an offence to swear??

Since 1994. Didn't you read the original post? :v:

LundiMardi

Binomate wrote:

Since 1994. Didn't you read the original post? :v:

no sorry, i can't read...


Oh wait!!

ronbyrne2005

but can i get a criminal record?? or will i just get the "poor box"? i have no previous convictions.

lodgepole

http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/ZZA15Y1994.html

Are you sure it was section 5?

I wasn't off the belief that it was an offence... Is that the wording of the summons?

edit.. doh...

Wrong act.


5.—(1) It shall be an offence for any person in a public place to engage in offensive conduct—

( a ) between the hours of 12 o'clock midnight and 7 o'clock in the morning next following, or

( b ) at any other time, after having been requested by a member of the Garda Síochána to desist.

(2) A person who is guilty of an offence under this section shall be liable on summary conviction to a fine not exceeding £500.

(3) In this section "offensive conduct" means any unreasonable behaviour which, having regard to all the circumstances, is likely to cause serious offence or serious annoyance to any person who is, or might reasonably be expected to be, aware of such behaviour.

ronbyrne2005

yes its section 5 of cj act 1994 under "offensive conduct in that you did engage in offensive language"

funky penguin

Tell them to fúck off.

RoundyMooney

Seems a little overkill given the situation you describe. You couldn't remember what you had done wrong? Are you often questioned and your details taken by a Garda?

There's more to this.

Terry

tell the judge that since you don't find the language offensive, you should be allowed go free.

seriously though, go to court and take whatever punishment they are giving. be very meek and apologetic and you should get away with a small fine and nothing else. also, stop giving the cops grief. it doesn't get you anywhere. they're just like bouncers, nly the have real power.

Oriel

I like to know what really happened in the scene painted through these rose-tinted glasses...

ronbyrne2005

it was last august so i had forgotten about it,had been drinking but was soberred up at the time,it happened as described.

projectmayhem

bit of a joke don't you think? cussing on the streets = illegal? c'mon now..

lodgepole

A solicitor will get you off without a problem. A member of the Gardai can't claim that bad language is offensive to them, it's part of their job to have to deal with that kind of thing. Don't sit back and take it, i'll be damned if I live in a world where I can't express myself verbally in the manner in which I choose.

"likely to cause serious offence or serious annoyance to any person"

If that is the case then the Garda isn't fit to be working.

Assuming it all happened as you say it did it's a clear cut case of a member of the Garda taking a disliking to your attitude on the night and filing your case away so that he could up his stats at some point in the future. It's bollocks. Fight it.

daRobot

Lodgepole wrote:

It's bollocks. Fight it.

Why bother with the extra expense and hassle?

Take the fine and forget it

cournioni

Lodgepole wrote:

A solicitor will get you off without a problem. A member of the Gardai can't claim that bad language is offensive to them, it's part of their job to have to deal with that kind of thing. Don't sit back and take it, i'll be damned if I live in a world where I can't express myself verbally in the manner in which I choose.

"likely to cause serious offence or serious annoyance to any person"

If that is the case then the Garda isn't fit to be working.

Assuming it all happened as you say it did it's a clear cut case of a member of the Garda taking a disliking to your attitude on the night and filing your case away so that he could up his stats at some point in the future. It's bollocks. Fight it.

I'm bringing you to court for that...

constitutionus

you know considering how long ago it was you could probably claim it wasnt you and that youve been stiched up by some local scumbag:D i mean unless they took you down to the station and finger printed ya its his word against you. if he cant catagorically say it was you your off scott free:D

lodgepole

daRobot wrote:

Why bother with the extra expense and hassle?

Take the fine and forget it

Because no wrong doing took place. I wouldn't pay out when I had done nothing wrong.

ronbyrne2005

will i have a criminal record if i get a fine?? dont want to be stopped from going abroad or getting certain jobs over such nonsense.

FranknFurter

Just wondering......
How did they get your name and address?
Surely if they took it at the time you would have to have said / done more than merely voice your disgust?
If not, then this is ridiculous, there are scumbags walking free waiting for a "trial date" and they bring you to court for swearing alone?

crazy imho, alltho' spending 30mins of your shift getting the details of somone who swore is preferable to spending 30 mins dealing with *real* criminals (as is their job) I suppose:rolleyes:
No wonder crimes on the increase.:rolleyes:

Chucky the tree

ronbyrne2005 wrote:

will i have a criminal record if i get a fine?? dont want to be stopped from going abroad or getting certain jobs over such nonsense.

No you wont get a criminal record, just a fine. If you contest it a lose, the will be alot bigger then if you just accept it.

drdre

thats just stupid, why do they waste their time for such a thing,they should catch drug dealers and large fraudsters etc.

Time Magazine

The Gardaí told people to move on. They're allowed to do that. I don't know the circumstances, but usually they're being annoying with buskers.

That said, the guard had a right to do it. Never swear to a guard. It's just not worth it. They can be very vengeful, and deal with this sh*t every Friday and Saturday night so they know what they're doing.

If you want to try and reason with them you're far better off being polite and reasonable, but accepting that he has a right to move people on. Being abusive to a guard is not just illegal but really stupid.

Don't dispute it. You broke a law, and the fine is no more than a slap on the wrist. It's not for judges to decide whether that law is fair or not, and they work under the assumption that it is, so bow your head and say sorry and move on.

Perhaps it's an unfair advantage that the gardaí have, but they don't deserve to be sworn at either.

raheny red

Deny everything

When I was 16/17 I was caught litering, I denied it after a letter arrived at my house. As a result, I had to go to Raheny Garda Station where the Gardaí who gave me the fine had to identify me..........when asked did she recognise me she said "no" :cool:

And that was the end of that.........:v:

Kintarō Hattori

I hate people who litter!

The Fool

ronbyrne2005 wrote:

will i have a criminal record if i get a fine?? dont want to be stopped from going abroad or getting certain jobs over such nonsense.

I hope they throw away the key!!;)
It's the probation act for you...

Next time a Guard asks for your name and address...
I'm Bertie Ahern and live in Drumcondra.....

Right_Side

You'll just get the Probation Act. No criminal record.

Since the section 5 doesn't specifically say what is "offensive conduct" (in the extract another poster pasted) you could argue that the law isn't clear. Courts operate under a presumption that in taxation and penal matters Oireachtas should specifically state the liability imposed. See the Inspector of Taxes v Kiernan [1981].

robz150

So would you do it again?

Or ar you gonna move the next time your asked by a Garda

grumpytrousers

ronbyrne2005 wrote:

a member of the gardai has just knocked at my home and presented me with a summons-such a thoughtful fella.i couldnt remember what i had done wrong untill i read it.they are charging me with "offensive language " under section 5 1994 criminal justice act. i was in grafton street early one sunday mornign after leaving a nightclub,there was a busker with around fifty people around him and everyone was enjoying the craic. the gardai arrived and ordered him to move along and i complained that the guards should leave him alone as he was doing no harm,i may have said "for fuks sake" during my little rant but i was tired and emotional!
anyway can i get a criminal offence from this?? seems a little trivial to drag me to court for,i had no idea the policeman was taking it so serious.i may have been a bit obnoxious to him so maybe he's getting his revenge on me.

As a matter of interest, was it served within 6 months of the offending behaviour?

As others have said, turn up at court, say you're sorry, get the probation act, do not pass go, and you probably won't be collecting €200...

connundrum

drdre wrote:

they should catch drug dealers and large fraudsters etc.

Says he with the symbol of a hash plant for a sig :rolleyes:

LegacyUser

connundrum - Call The Gardai!! Asap!

Boggle

Since the section 5 doesn't specifically say what is "offensive conduct" (in the extract another poster pasted) you could argue that the law isn't clear.

I agree... If you weren't being abusive in tone, you could argue that you were never intending to be aggressive but you tend to use curses to emphasise your points - especially when drunk.

Although, to a gard, just disagreeing with them is offensive (regardless of the language used) so good luck!!

muppetkiller

Just as a matter of interest is there any proof ?
Does the Garda have a witness ? Is there a recording ?
Seems like it's one persons word against another..even if it is a cop...

JohnCleary

drdre wrote:

thats just stupid, why do they waste their time for such a thing,they should catch drug dealers and large fraudsters etc.

And people doing doghnuts in ind estates...

Oh wait

StupidLikeAFox

Could always argue that ya werent there, someone else gave your details to the cop??

Victor

Its an offence, not a crime.

Write to the Garda, apologise. Say that you had been drinking a little and became upset, that you were out of order, but didn't realise the seriousness of it at the time. Say you've cut down on your drinking and haven't been in trouble since (you will need to mean both of these) and hope that the matter can be settled quickly.

Ri_Nollaig

i cant believe this is an actual offence...
what if u had tourettes ?
wouldnt your right to swear but under freedom of speech? or is it freedom of certain speech instead? but was this seen as a "verbal attack" and we arnt getting the full story :rolleyes:

even then how many knackers tell gaurds to fück off on a daily basis

Right_Side

Victor wrote:

Its an offence, not a crime.

Write to the Garda, apologise. Say that you had been drinking a little and became upset, that you were out of order, but didn't realise the seriousness of it at the time. Say you've cut down on your drinking and haven't been in trouble since (you will need to mean both of these) and hope that the matter can be settled quickly.

While this may help in court, surely the matter is out of the hands of the Garda now. I believe the process is the Garda would have sent a file to the DPP and they would be prosecuting.

WexCan

DPP wouldn't prosecute something so small, the Gardai can prosecute certain cases themselves.

Siogfinsceal

F**kin typical in this country - lots of scumbags, drug dealers, rapists etc out in dublin on a night out and hwat are the police doing - causing greif to a street busker who is doing no hard. What do they do next?- give a summons to you for swearing. It amazes me when you hear that fella got 4 years for killign a neighbour and yet you get a summons for swearing??! they did something similar recently summons to a young lad for calling a police horse 'gay'. god forbid the gardai should actually go out and catch real criminals. Its like theres loads of accidents every morning on teh naas road and where are the gardai???- up the back of rathcoole trying to catch anyone doign 55 instead of 50 through kilteel village !!

Riesen_Meal

Siogfinsceal wrote:

F**kin typical in this country - where are the gardai???- up the back of rathcoole trying to catch anyone doign 55 instead of 50 through kilteel village !!

Someone got done for speeding :rolleyes:

Siogfinsceal

hell no i didnt i know enough people who have though so I always crawl my way up the backroads!! Go down and catch people doing 140 instead of 100 thats speeding or driving dangerously. It would be interesting if they started placing guards where they know accidents always happen ? maybe one near the dualler and one at the red cow instead of trying to make money catching people doing 5-10 km over the limit!

robz150

Mad the way so many people think they should be able to pick what laws that apply to them.

If some scumbag came up and start roaring abuse into your face and a Garda was standing there watching and did nothing would you have the same opinion

robz150

x2

Victor

Ri_Nollaig wrote:

i cant believe this is an actual offence...
what if u had tourettes ?

Then the judge might demand medical evidence.

Lets face it, the OP was probably drunk and engaged in beharior likely to cause a breach of the peace, if he was charged with that he could be easily looking at a much stiffer fine or a month or three inside.

ivan087

wait until the reserve police force comes around. a bunch a do-gooders running around with no other reason to join then for the power trip.
most gaurds are ok and dont do sh!t like this. but to these guys it will be like a monthly holiday doing what they only dreamed of.:(

lodgepole

robz150 wrote:

If some scumbag came up and start roaring abuse into your face and a Garda was standing there watching and did nothing would you have the same opinion

Yes. As long as the scumbag in question wasn't just hurling pointless abuse. The law dictates that a member of the Gardai can ask a person to "move along" and that a member of the public must do so. We are perfectly within our rights to let our feelings known to said Gardai and since using so called curse words isn't against the law (only offending people is described) we are within our rights to use them too.

To say that a Garda may be offended by words like "****", "****", "****"* etc is ridiculous. Personal offence isn't part of the a Garda's job.

* though clearly the powers that be are...

Turner

I presume there were other people in the vicinity. Not all people appreciate drunken abusive people shouting in the street.

No matter what time it is.

Maybe there are apartments near by, or people who would be offended by yer mans behaviour.

rubadub

drdre wrote:

why do they waste their time for such a thing,they should catch drug dealers and large fraudsters etc.

Saves themselves risk and bother. They have to come back with some reports so they turn a blind eye to real fights and arrest people they know are not likely to fight back. I saw it all the time in the early 90's in town, cops avoiding fights going searching young lads for hash while other beat the **** out of each other a few yards away.

This reminds me of paths to freedom where the cop told him to substitute fuk for fiddlesticks. But a garda could arrest you for saying fiddlesticks too, that public order thing allows them to arrest you for pretty much anything, the media highlighted that at the time.

BTW does anybody know what would have happened if the garda asked him "are you john smith?" and he simply said no? or doesnt live here anymore or something?