Road Accidents in Donegal

donegalman1

Not to make light of the tragedies on the Donegal roads I think someone outta really look at the state of the roads in Donegal

It seems to me that the road infrastructure in Inishowen and the county in general have a bearing also.

We are paying the same road tax as anyone else nationwide and less than NI so why is it we have a second rate network to everyone else.

Its interesting to note the amount of speed checks on the Letterkenny Dual Carraigeway and the new Barnes Gap stretch which are relatively safe pieces of roads.

In effect we are being almost tolled by speed fines for good sections

I just cannot understand why politicians do not proceed to look at the Black Spot element of road deaths. Most of the Inishowen accidents are relatively close to each other. Enforcement of the law we keep hearing of is one thing but when a section of road is fatally dangerous then get back to the drawing board literally.

nanook

donegal, i dont think you are out of order for what you have said.

There are so many factors that have to be taken into account when it comes to RTA's, speed, expericence, car conditions, road conditions, weather conditions etc.

As you say the the two points of decent infrastucture are manned to an inch of their life and the other areas are neglected. this is where speed cameras come to life.

I dont think it is a bad idea that someone looks at the current situtation, it seems to be the worst year for road deaths that i can remember. Hopefully the worst is over and it will ease off from this point on.

byte

Yes, I couldn't agree more.

Inishowen particularly has had a lot of tragic accidents and something should be done.

muffler

Its a terrible tragedy and it only highlights the serious problems that exist on our roads all over the country.

We can blame the condition of the roads from now to eternity but at the end of the day most accidents are caused by driver error. Poles, ditches, hedges etc dont jump out and run into cars. Cars dont run into other cars unless they are made to by the driver or on the odd condition by icy roads.

People must be more responsible for their own safety and the safety of other road users. But the Garda have a large role to play also and indirectly they can be blamed for some of the accidents.

For the next 2 or 3 weeks we will see checkpoints on the roads around Buncrana just like there was last year but after that they are nowhere to be seen. I dont see why they cant keep a high profile all year round instead of at Xmas time and as usual after the sad loss of life that we have just experienced.

There should be more checkpoints. Prevention is always better than cure

smashey

The Sean Doherty show should be interesting tomorrow and perhaps a little predictable. People will be calling in appalled by another senseless tragedy in the Buncrana area, possibly the local priest may be on, local politicians will get their airtime and the government will get a lot of abuse as will male drivers of a certain age. The Gardai will be more visible in the area for the next few weeks and so on. Now this may sound a bit harsh but after the fuss dies down, it will happen again and the cycle will be repeated. Whilst I agree that the standard of roads in Donegal is atrocious, the stretch of road in Lisfannon is relatively good. As Muffler said, prevention is better than cure. Drivers will have to get the message sooner rather than later that they are not invincible and as a car advertisement of a few years ago said, 'the most crushable part of a car is you'.

jimmycrackcorm

Is it just me or does anyone else feel it is more than coincidental that so many of these accidents involve young people and happen after nights out in pubs and nightclubs?

If one were to hazard a guess at how much money it would take to bring all the countys' roads up to a safe par then how many of us woudl vote to pay the extra taxes top maintain it.

Even where the roads are bad it is a duty of care on drivers to drive according to the conditions.

There is an interesting article in the SBP by David Mcwilliams criticising the government on not taking appropriate action on reducing the road carnage. the point he makes is that people will not vote politically for change so it will not happen.

Civilian_Target

donegalman1 wrote:

It seems to me that the road infrastructure in Inishowen and the county in general have a bearing also.

We are paying the same road tax as anyone else nationwide and less than NI so why is it we have a second rate network to everyone else.

I disagree with this. Ireland's about the least densely populated country in the EU. We also have about the most roads per capita in the EU. Donegal has about the lowest population density in the country. Inishowen doubly so. It would be nice to have highways, but lets face it, it's not economicly practical - look at the traffic issues in Dublin, they're a far more pressing concern for most more people. Yes, the roads are bad in Donegal, but its pretty much par for the course in rural areas anywhere. Try the US, Australia or even Portugal and you won't see an improvement!

Comparisons to NI are quite unfair because their budget is subsidised by the English taxpayer to the tune of almost £2000 per head per year!

Its interesting to note the amount of speed checks on the Letterkenny Dual Carraigeway and the new Barnes Gap stretch which are relatively safe pieces of roads.

Would they be safe if everyone drove down them at 100 mph?

In effect we are being almost tolled by speed fines for good sections

That attitude only applys if you drive over the speed limit by default.

Enforcement of the law we keep hearing of is one thing but when a section of road is fatally dangerous then get back to the drawing board literally.

Agreed, to an extent. It shouldn't be down to enforcement, its a terrible shame that a minority of the population (of which it sounds like you are a part) put the lives of the majority at risk by driving at inappropriate speeds on small country roads. Have a bit of common sense, the speed limit is simply a legal application of common sense, you should drive the roads at a speed in which you are in control of your vehicle, not to test the speed limit on a narrow bend!


Interestingly, Bertie's comment on the accident was something along the lines of: The time of least traffic on the roads occurs between 12am - 6am. The highest RTA fatality rate occurs between 1am -5am.

muffler

Civilian_Target wrote:

........its a terrible shame that a minority of the population (of which it sounds like you are a part) put the lives of the majority at risk by driving at inappropriate speeds on small country roads. Have a bit of common sense,

I think thats very much presumptious and unfair to put it mildly. I think you should retract that

donegalman1

I hold a full clean driving license, do not drink and drive and never have received a speeding fine in my life....

Anyway I dont hear about as many accidents on Germany's Autobahn at higher speeds.

I think most of you are missing my point. I'm not avocating boy racers, speeding or the like at all. With regard to pot holes and poles etc, can it be justified that the are allowed to be or are placed on dangerous bends. The Buncrana incident, that is a notorious stretch of road... that bend has been the scene of many not always fatal accidents. Any engineer will tell you that even a gradient slope on a corner can have results on the handling of a vehicle.

Anyway I thought we were the richest or 2nd per head of population. Can we not afford to re-align a bad stretch of road. Can you tell me that the Letterkenny to Lifford is of a suitable or acceptable standard.

I agree Drinking is almost always an issue, but its being troughed out just the same as the RIP off NCT was gonna solve everything!

Finally I do not reside in Portugal, I am making a North West point on the relevant Board, I pay taxes, I expect service.

Civilian_Target

donegalman1 wrote:

I hold a full clean driving license, do not drink and drive and never have received a speeding fine in my life....

Apologies then, your comments about speed traps being a "toll" led me to believe you were someone who felt that the Gardaí were out to get you as you speed along at 90mph. Same attitute as the guy that came up with the name "speed traps"

Anyway I dont hear about as many accidents on Germany's Autobahn at higher speeds.

That's because we don't live in Germany. There are plenty of accidents, but most Germans are also very strict drivers, and do things like use their indicators promptly, which a huge number of drivers in the North-west, and worse still in Northern Ireland, do not.

The Buncrana incident, that is a notorious stretch of road... that bend has been the scene of many not always fatal accidents. Any engineer will tell you that even a gradient slope on a corner can have results on the handling of a vehicle.

Fair enough - I wasn't fully aware of the road history at the area, but it is still probably well advertised as a dangerous bend or accident black spot, that someone drove through too fast. That said, I agree that accident black spots are often viewed as a permanent solution in Donegal, when their real purpose should be as a temporary measure.

Anyway I thought we were the richest or 2nd per head of population. Can we not afford to re-align a bad stretch of road. Can you tell me that the Letterkenny to Lifford is of a suitable or acceptable standard.

We aren't. We're 4th by GDP and even that's misleading because of the amount of that is declared as corporate profits which are then taken tax-free to america. And as I mentioned, we do have an awful lot of road per head of population. I don't advocate bad roads, it'd be nice if they were fixed, but at the end of the day, we don't pay a French level of tax, why are you expecting a French level of roads in Donegal?

Finally I do not reside in Portugal, I am making a North West point on the relevant Board, I pay taxes, I expect service.

You're going to be disappointed. Lets face it, Donegal Co. Co. aren't wealthy, but they still manage to be pretty inefficient.....

[EDIT]Whoops, I meant third by GDP, Norway and Denmark are richer[/EDIT]

Snickers Man

Civilian_Target wrote:

.Would they be safe if everyone drove down them at 100 mph?

Probably, if they kept a safe stopping difference behind each other.

Can somebody please tell me why the speed limit on country roads lilke that one at Lisfannon is 100kmph whereas on a dead straight piece of dual carriageway in Dublin (eg Navan Road/Long Mile road) it is 80kmph and 50kmph respectively?

Oh and no prizes for guessing which ones get most cops and speed cameras.

Simply put, you can drive at a speed that is comparatively safe but illegal on a road in Dublin and still be driving more slowly than a car driving legally but at a dangerous speed, giving the nature of the road and the traffic, in Dongeal.

Says a lot for the mentality of the cops.

Snickers Man

donegalman1 wrote:

I hold a full clean driving license, do not drink and drive and never have received a speeding fine in my life....

Tell the truth!!

Have you ever exceeded speed limit without getting caught? Ever?

smashey

Snickers Man wrote:

Can somebody please tell me why the speed limit on country roads lilke that one at Lisfannon is 100kmph whereas on a dead straight piece of dual carriageway in Dublin (eg Navan Road/Long Mile road) it is 80kmph and 50kmph respectively?

Correct me if I am wrong here but the speed limit on the road in Lisfannon is 80kph as it is not a national primary road.

donegalman1

Once or twice though mainly for overtaking and never above 70. I value my license too much, maybe if others did too. That still doesn't make danger spots safer, particularly when they are the frequent scene of RTAs

In any case, its often hard to stay behind slow drivers, tractors etc who hoarde the Road either.Surely these contribute to the odd accident. This is one of the situations Donegal Co Council tried to modify on the Lifford Road, though I don't see many tractors availing of the pull in lanes... not to do so when there is a long line of traffic should be an offence.

With regard to speed fines... The Dual Carraige way and the Barnes Gap are easy targets, I seriously wonder at the motivation - fine incomes and prosecutions or road safety... thats my point.

Civilian_Target

Snickers Man wrote:

Can somebody please tell me why the speed limit on country roads lilke that one at Lisfannon is 100kmph whereas on a dead straight piece of dual carriageway in Dublin (eg Navan Road/Long Mile road) it is 80kmph and 50kmph respectively?

Cyclists and pedestrians. Having people pass you at 100kmph with less than a metre clearance when you're on a bicycle is pretty scary, and no other provisions have been made for cyclists along that road until you get past Blanchardstown village.

jimmycrackcorm

Interesting point about the lack of enforcement.

I used to do the Dublin Donegal drive at an over anxious speed. But the omni-present speed traps on the N2 between Monaghan and Carrickmacross slowed me down and I just got into the habit of sticking to the limit ever since.

Every time I drive that road I either saw the cops waiting or having someone pulled over. I got a ticket on that stretch and the wife got one also so now I'ma born-again driver halleluiah. I notice in recent times that these speed checks have faded out so I can only conclude that the Monaghan Super got moved somewhere else.

There have been a number of high-profile accidents in the Inishowen area in recent times yet I would say that the west Donegal roads are actually in a much worse state.

muffler

Can we stay on the topic of road accidents in Donegal.

This is the second thread that reference has been made to Blanchardstown which is a long way from Donegal

Snickers Man

donegalman1 wrote:

Once or twice though mainly for overtaking and never above 70. I value my license too much, maybe if others did too.

Well it should be only a matter of time before you're caught then.

I've been done for speeding three times. And never above 70mph either. 50 (on a 30mph dual carriageway---Go figure!) 64 in a 40 (both of those in old money) and most recently 102k in an 80k area.

None of them in Donegal though. And that looks like a place where it could really be needed.

donegalman1 wrote:

With regard to speed fines... The Dual Carraige way and the Barnes Gap are easy targets, I seriously wonder at the motivation - fine incomes and prosecutions or road safety... thats my point.

Well I would share that prejudice wholeheartedly but then I would say that wouldn't I?

I'm not complaining about my being caught. Bang to rights. Fines all paid. Four points accumulated. But I think they could be doing things much smarter.

It's not a question of catching a few people out. It's encouraging the greater majority to slow down. And that's not happening.

Manifestly.

Civilian_Target

muffler wrote:

Can we stay on the topic of road accidents in Donegal.

This is the second thread that reference has been made to Blanchardstown which is a long way from Donegal

LOL - people keep picking arguments with me about Blanchardstown and I feel compelled to correct them

Anyway, my opinion is simple. I don't speed, and one of the primary reasons for this is that I did transition year, and we did a road safety course. We went out and looked at an accident scene, and video footage of just how you die in accidents for a good 2 hours, on a big screen. It's quite quite offputting. I know very few people who did that course and also speed...

byte

Civilian_Target wrote:

Anyway, my opinion is simple. I don't speed, and one of the primary reasons for this is that I did transition year, and we did a road safety course. We went out and looked at an accident scene, and video footage of just how you die in accidents for a good 2 hours, on a big screen. It's quite quite offputting. I know very few people who did that course and also speed...

Maybe that could be part of the answer... introduce that safety course as part of the 4th year/LC curriculum.

Am I right in thinking that schooling in USA includes being taught how to drive?

nanook

intereasting reading going on here.

It seems fair to say we have the best drivers on the roads here in the north west, we all obey the speed limit and we adhere to all the rules of the road. We have never sped or broke any rules. Only one guy admits to having points on his license, 50 in a 30, in some parts of the country you are going to court for that one.
Myself, I was a lunatic, not a boy racer or anything like that, but none the less a lunatic. I am talking when i was 23ish, had my own car, insurance, good job with money in the bank and thought i was untouchable. I remember comming from letterkenny to home one night (80 mile trip) and doing the whole thing in over an hour ten. Its was something I was proud of at the time but not anymore.
I have 4 points, 38 in a 30 (hands up guilty) and 42 in a 40 (paid it and still think i should have contested it).

Here is my point. Like i stated earlier, there are alot of factors to consider when we talk about crashes, deaths etc on the roads. Experience has alot to play for most parts but there is nothing more safer than common sense. If there is rain, SLOW DOWN. If there is fog SLOWDOWN, if there is snow and ice, DONT DRIVE (unless you have too)
The guards are held accountable for all the incidents and experts have indicated that the crutial time for manning the roads is when the pub and clubs close, be that as it may but the guards do not have the manpower/resources to put this in place.
It is not always the little boy racer (this is only a term i use) who is the cause of an accident, in reality most of them are driving cars that can not go faster then 80 with a good wind behind them, but because of one or two, the whole bunch have a bad name.
What about the rep who has to make that meeting and is trying to reschedule on his mobile while discussing the monthly figueres as he/she drives, what about the lady who has a crying child in the back seat and is distracted. What about the person who just thinks "I know there is no guards on this stretch of road", these are the people who are a liability.

I am going to finish off because it is tooo early for this much thought. I hope this made sense, it did when i was typing through sleep filled eyes.

Snickers Man

nanook wrote:

Only one guy admits to having points on his license, 50 in a 30, in some parts of the country you are going to court for that one.

On a dual carriageway. Who's expecting a 30mph limit on a dual carriageway?

(The Long Mile Road, actually) And there's nearly always a camera cop there when I pass it. Why don't they just put up a bigger sign? That would slow down the general traffic a lot more and give the cops time to go around some of the more dangerous places.

Paddy20

It seems that most road vehicle accidents happen within a relatively 'short' distance of a persons home AFAIK ?...

Walking to the local shop/pub might help for a start, and a complete rethink on lifestyles is IMHO needed NOW !.

In 1987, I stepped out of my car, gave the keys to a friend and told him to 'keep it' (A BMW Auto) as I was giving up driving for good.

19 years have flown past, and I have not driven once, and that is after having been addicted too driving for about 30 years, as well as having been a 'rep' who practically lived in his car.

Now, I am very careful about who's car I will get into.

My driving record is spotless, even though I must have broken every rule in the book (I was never caught!),,while on the road. The simple fact is I wanted to change my 'way of life' and increase my chance's of living longer and consequently I am still here . (Just about !)

That is just my 2cs worth, and BTW I have never missed driving since.

NOTE: KILLED ON IRISH ROADS ( 1997-2005 ) Total = 3,568
KILLED IN THE NORTHERN TROUBLES (1969-2005) Total = 3,580
THINK ABOUT IT !. (Statistics courtesy of 'Victor').

Do you really need a car ?....

P.:cool:

jimmycrackcorm

When I read all that is written about speed being a factor in accidents, I start wondering why Formula One racing isn't banned as that is very speedy indeed. Perhaps it is not so obvious that it is actually inappropriate speed that kills.

smashey

You can't compare formula 1 with what happens on Irish roads. Formula 1 is at the forefront of engineering, safety and technology and by it's very nature has the best drivers available. How often have you seen a formula 1 car crash and the driver walk away. Those guys know they are good and drive accordingly while the average young Irish male thinks he is a good driver and drives accordingly.

jimmycrackcorm

smashey wrote:

You can't compare formula 1 with what happens on Irish roads. Formula 1 is at the forefront of engineering, safety and technology and by it's very nature has the best drivers available. How often have you seen a formula 1 car crash and the driver walk away. Those guys know they are good and drive accordingly while the average young Irish male thinks he is a good driver and drives accordingly.

yes, true, but my point is actually that the message is going out that "speed kills" when Formula one shows that it's not speed that kills but, as I indicated, inappropriate speed. The whole emphasis on speeding and penalty points is in my opinion mis-directed when it should be directed to safer driving techniques.

There is not a single bad road in Donegal that could cost a life if people drove with care.

The other point that I would make about road accidents is that we never get any information about what actually caused them. If we don't then how do we learn? Perhaps a lot of it is to do with the legalities of proscution or an empathy to the people involved.

nanook

Paddy20 wrote:

NOTE: KILLED ON IRISH ROADS ( 1997-2005 ) Total = 3,568
KILLED IN THE NORTHERN TROUBLES (1969-2005) Total = 3,580
THINK ABOUT IT !. (Statistics courtesy of 'Victor').

P.:cool:

paddy i know your text in general is doing with driving and you opinions but what has the troubles got to do with road accidents in donegal

rambler

A lot here is said about the roads in Donegal but however I drive all over Ireland and must say that the roads in Inishowen compare pretty good with the rest of the country, the roads in the west of the county yes could do with more improvements, but we are not seeing the same road deaths on these roads.
Penalty points at the moment don't work because people see it as a form of tax and not road safety. I have in the past reported drivers who I seen driving dangerously, but the reply I get from the garda is are you willing to make a statement and go to court, It costs me money if i were to go to court so I am not willing to go. The garda when they question some of these boy racers they say they didn't break any laws, some may even have had brothers or sisters killed in road accidents.
To me maybe more should be done in changing people mindset on road safety, perhaps a group who have had love ones lost could do talks on how it has affected there lifes, young people themself who are law abiding to isolate themselfs from boyracers, for it is them that has to pay the price with higher Insurance etc

emmemm

Driving at 6pm yesterday half mile out of kilmacrenan on churchill road.Car appears around blind bend,loses control at high speed.Luckily he regained control.If I had been two seconds earlier I'm certain both me and the other guy would add to the stats.
Speed limiters in all vehicles is the only answer to this lunacy.

rambler

emmemm wrote:

Driving at 6pm yesterday half mile out of kilmacrenan on churchill road.Car appears around blind bend,loses control at high speed.Luckily he regained control.If I had been two seconds earlier I'm certain both me and the other guy would add to the stats.
Speed limiters in all vehicles is the only answer to this lunacy.

Speed limiters, and at what speed do you set limiter to, On the few motorways we have in this country the Max speed is 120 Km\h, at that speed is dangerous to enter any blind bend, Also seen it with HGV vehicles where speed imiters are imposed by law and are set to approx 55MPH, but how many times have you seen one right on your bumber doing 60MPH and maybe even overtaking. As I said before peoples mindset has to change, it can be done, if you look at the smoking ban, where smoking was once seen as sexy and in thing to do, is now becoming to be seen more of a dirty unsocial habbit.

luckat

http://www.eupolitix.com/EN/News/200602/eb4bfb93-43ae-4ad2-b534-b04a75b99a90.htm

New EU has highest number of road deaths

The EU’s newest member states have the highest rate of fatal road accidents, according to new statistics unveiled by Brussels on Wednesday.

Aggressive driving coupled with double the number of vehicles over the last ten years, on roads many of which are unimproved since the soviet era, mean that new member states such as Latvia and Lithuania have more that twice the EU average of road accident fatalities.

New figures released as part of the European commission’s mid-term review of the European road safety action programme, reveal that Latvia had 220 victims per million inhabitants, compared to an EU average of 95.

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