Me and my Granny

NickyOD · 17-02-2006 7:17am #1

A live cash game hand from the poker lounge....

I'm having a brutal night. I'm down €900 through a combination of incredible river cards and interesting calls.

In and unraised 4 way pot I complete in the small blind with J-6o. The flop comes down 5-6-J with 2 spades and I don't have one.

I lead for €8 and there is one caller. Bad player who bohsman knows as the chap who knocked him out in Drogheda makes it €35. I reraise to €125. The other guy folds. Flop raiser then makes it. €450.

At the start of the hand we are both sitting down with almost exactly €1000.

All-in or fold?

charlesanto · 17-02-2006 7:22am

Push:cool:

NickyOD · 17-02-2006 7:38am

charlesanto wrote:

Push:cool:

Why?

careca · 17-02-2006 8:36am

All in. I reckon its a badly played AA. If hes as bad as you say and he has a set he would probably slow play them regardless of the two spades on the board. If hes playing the flush draw then great.

Norwich Fan Rob · 17-02-2006 8:57am

im thinking badly played over pair here too

Gholimoli · 17-02-2006 9:02am

Depends on the read you have really Nicky but I would fold here:
The pot wasn’t raised which makes 66,55 very possible .unlucky if he has 66 but its possible.
Also 78 of spades is very possible. he would play it like that confidently knowing he can get you to fold a lot of hands and even if you don’t he has outs.
A high PP like KK, AA is also possible but depend whether you think he is the kind os donkey to over play a high pair like that.
From a normal player this would look like a made hand trying to protect it against flush draw.
what position is this dude in?
i mean if his UTG then AA,KK more possible but if he is not then limping behnd another limper with thoes hands dosent make sense.

dunkamania · 17-02-2006 9:12am

50:50 he has either a set or overpair,so push.

What happened anyway?

handsfree · 17-02-2006 10:02am

i'd be a bit worried here as he could easily have a set. i've fallen flat on my face a few times with top 2 pair beaten by lower trips

ianmc38 · 17-02-2006 10:18am

I'd be very wary of an open ended straight flush draw. I'd be surprised if it's a set or an overpair.

Ollieboy · 17-02-2006 10:41am

Hard to see it been an overpair with no raise preflop in a cash game and its also unlikely to be a flush draw or straight draw, as he would only call your bet instead of a massive reraise. So he must have hit and hit big.

Trip 5's i would guess and he's trying to get all the money in the pot now, hence the overbet, but your raise of 125, could have been seen as an over raise also, so he's guessing you'll call any bet now. I would love to see his body language when he made the reraise, ie how long did he think about it.

Trip 6's and j's would be very unlucky and a J with Ace kicker if he's as weak as you say, with the ace j been soooooooooot, spades.

NickyOD · 17-02-2006 10:48am

dunkamania wrote:

50:50 he has either a set or overpair,so push.

What happened anyway?

This is terrible advice.

If he has an overpair I am still only 70% favourite. If he has a set of 5s I'm a 16% dog and worse again if he has 66 or JJ. So I need to be a hell of a lot more certain he has an overpair to justify pushing.

Gholimoli · 17-02-2006 10:53am

Nicky,
what was his position?

NickyOD · 17-02-2006 10:54am

Gholimoli wrote:

Nicky,
what was his position?

Cutoff and one player had limped in front of him.

Norwich Fan Rob · 17-02-2006 10:56am

ok, if there was a limper in front of him and he didnt raise from late position, its more likely bottom set than AA i would suggest.

NickyOD · 17-02-2006 10:57am

Ollieboy wrote:

Hard to see it been an overpair with no raise preflop in a cash game and its also unlikely to be a flush draw or straight draw, as he would only call your bet instead of a massive reraise. So he must have hit and hit big.

Trip 5's i would guess and he's trying to get all the money in the pot now, hence the overbet, but your raise of 125, could have been seen as an over raise also, so he's guessing you'll call any bet now. I would love to see his body language when he made the reraise, ie how long did he think about it.

Trip 6's and j's would be very unlucky and a J with Ace kicker if he's as weak as you say, with the ace j been soooooooooot, spades.

He made the reraise very quickly and was very confident about his hand. From looking at him I could tell he believed he had the best hand. I grilled him for 5 minutes.

The problem was this player is too stupid not to think an overpair is in trouble. He was so confident he actualy believed his single pair was the best hand. I couldn't possibly call. I was 50/50 that he had limped with Aces but that just wasn't enough. I folded and may have even folded pocket 5s. He showed pocket Kings. I don't know how the hell anyone could be so stupid as to think I have anything less than top 2 in this spot after a bet, a call, a raise and a reraise. Un****ingbeievable.

ianmc38 · 17-02-2006 11:03am

Ollieboy wrote:

its also unlikely to be a flush draw or straight draw, as he would only call your bet instead of a massive reraise

I'm not quite sure about that. if he has an open ended straight flush draw, then he has 15 outs twice. A large reraise like that makes a difficult decision for Nicky. I think AJ spades is also quite likely though many people would prefer to raise with this hand in late position.

Edit: Just read the outcome. What a donkey.

ollyk1 · 17-02-2006 11:07am

What hand can he be rereraising with? Its either a set or 56 played by a poor player. He's fairly committed and I don't think he's drawing.

You're beat most times here so fold.

Edit: Obviously I should have said you are beat by reasonable players most times! Hard luck Nicky sometimes you can't fathom how bad players are thinking and theres no point ion even dwelling on it.

5starpool · 17-02-2006 11:13am

In this situation I would agree that it looks like 55, or possibly 66. I was thinking along the same lines as Ollie too when I reckon with the 78s he would have made the first reraise, but then just called your next bet instead of the reraise.

If he is as bad as you say though then you could be up against anything from badly played JJ preflop, to J5 or even just AJ or something. Also, he might not realise he should take another card at 125 with 78s even with 15 outs.

In this case I would have to decide between 55 or J5, one of which you are a big dog against, the other a big favourite. These hands are giving him a bit of credit though, and I am not sure if giving him credit is in your mind.

Overall, I would probably fold. Just.

5starpool · 17-02-2006 11:18am

ianmc38 wrote:

Edit: Just read the outcome. What a donkey.

Am I blind? I can't find outcome anywhere?????

Edit: Yes I am blind. Spotted it now.

GreeBo · 17-02-2006 11:19am

NickyOD wrote:

He showed pocket Kings. I don't know how the hell anyone could be so stupid as to think I have anything less than top 2 in this spot after a bet, a call, a raise and a reraise. Un****ingbeievable.

I love the way "good" players get annoyed at "bad" players for beating them.
You are acting as if he wasnt playing by the rules or something.
He bet, you folded, case closed. :cool:

Norwich Fan Rob · 17-02-2006 11:20am

its clowns like him that will come on and start whinging about how they are being so unlucky lately, losing massive pots with big pairs, clueless as to how this was entirely their own fault.

ianmc38 · 17-02-2006 11:21am

5starpool wrote:

Am I blind? I can't find outcome anywhere?????

Miss this?

NickyOD wrote:

He showed pocket Kings.

fixer · 17-02-2006 11:22am

I guess this is why I have such a wild variance over all you uber rocks, as I would have pushed here in most any cash game I've seen in Ireland.

Gholimoli · 17-02-2006 11:23am

i was looking in the dictionary for the word donkey there was a picture of a dude holding KK.
im sure it was him.
Jesus how can these players afford to play poker. this question really baffles me. I mean we all make stupid moves and bad calls, raises here and there but most of the time we know it was bad. the funny thing about players like this is they actually think they play well.
see more and more of them lately and it doesn’t get better with higher stakes.

GreeBo · 17-02-2006 11:26am

Gholimoli wrote:

the funny thing about players like this is they actually think they play well.
see more and more of them lately and it doesn’t get better with higher stakes.

Surely you love these guys if they are so bad?
I mean they must be cannon fodder to your WSOP style play?
Or is the problem that they can beat you by playing in a style that you are not used to/comfortable with?

kickintheteeth · 17-02-2006 11:30am

Have to completely agree with greebo here.

"for fck sake like, there are such bad poker players at my table, how am i meant to beat these guys?

Ollieboy · 17-02-2006 11:41am

NickyOD wrote:

He made the reraise very quickly and was very confident about his hand. From looking at him I could tell he believed he had the best hand. I grilled him for 5 minutes.

The problem was this player is too stupid not to think an overpair is in trouble. He was so confident he actualy believed his single pair was the best hand. I couldn't possibly call. I was 50/50 that he had limped with Aces but that just wasn't enough. I folded and may have even folded pocket 5s. He showed pocket Kings. I don't know how the hell anyone could be so stupid as to think I have anything less than top 2 in this spot after a bet, a call, a raise and a reraise. Un****ingbeievable.

The problem was this player is too stupid not to think an overpair is in trouble. He was so confident he actualy believed his single pair was the best hand. I couldn't possibly call. I was 50/50 that he had limped with Aces but that just wasn't enough. I folded and may have even folded pocket 5s. He showed pocket Kings. I don't know how the hell anyone could be so stupid as to think I have anything less than top 2 in this spot after a bet, a call, a raise and a reraise. Un****ingbeievable.[/QUOTE]

You made the right decision and him been in a late position with one limper makes this hand possible, but is move was not that bad, I'm sure he thought you hit the j with an ace kicker and was hoping to end the hand there, he was just unlucky that you had the 2nd pair. If I had been him and you called, I would have been kicking myself for not raising preflop and we all make that mistake sometimes with big pairs in late position, but not in a cash game.

He was always going to reraise you to find out where he was, the problem was the size of the reraise, not the way he played the hand. You would have played the KK aggressive in this position also, to take the hand down right there. It would have been a mistake for him to flat call and the 125 bet was not that big for him to lay down against.

If an ace had hit the flop, I think he might have had problems butting this hand down do.

mewso · 17-02-2006 11:45am

Eh Greebo/Kickintheteeth we are talking about one hand here. If you want to delude yourself into thinking this player outplayed Nicky or has some amazing secret game that can't be countered then fine go ahead. The point here is that this guy will lose big money over time no matter what you like to think. In the meantime individual hands will be discussed and players who actually try to study and improve their game will continue to be amazed at how bad players can be.

OilBeefHooked2 · 17-02-2006 11:46am

Gholimoli wrote:

i was looking in the dictionary for the word donkey there was a picture of a dude holding KK.
im sure it was him.
Jesus how can these players afford to play poker. this question really baffles me. I mean we all make stupid moves and bad calls, raises here and there but most of the time we know it was bad. the funny thing about players like this is they actually think they play well.
see more and more of them lately and it doesn’t get better with higher stakes.

who won the hand?the so called bad player!

It would take a great player to push with J6o after that action on that flop.

It seems to me that some of the "better" players make great reads like Nicky did here and then dont have the courage of their convictions and follow it through.

Gholimoli · 17-02-2006 11:49am

kickintheteeth wrote:

Have to completely agree with greebo here.

"for fck sake like, there are such bad poker players at my table, how am i meant to beat these guys?

Where did i ever say that i cant beat them, or im upset about the fact that they exist.
i was saying im wondering how they can afford to play poker esp in higher levels.
why do some people on this form take what they want from your posts and then are quick to respond with a couple of smart comments that is completely irrelevant to the topic being discussed?

handsfree · 17-02-2006 11:49am

its tough for this player to see what he's up against. he might have thought that you were an over aggressive flusher and tried to bet you out of the pot. if the guy can't read the game he has to assume he's ahead

handsfree · 17-02-2006 11:51am

david-k wrote:

who won the hand?the so called bad player!

It would take a great player to push with J6o after that action on that flop.

It seems to me that some of the "better" players make great reads like Nicky did here and then dont have the courage of their convictions and follow it through.

would you push for a grand with action like that. you have to assume your beaten when a player is that confident

charlesanto · 17-02-2006 11:53am

NickyOD wrote:

Why?

I'm having a brutal night. I'm down €900

Mr. bad player is sitting there looking at tilty Nicky thinking ....
... NOD didn't raise the blinds he must have Shiite (I'm gonna get him off this one)
... NOD bets 8, standard probe bet, showing no strength- he must have ****e (i'm gonna get him off this one)
... Jeasus, reraise to 125 that show's real strength - but i've seen NOD make that move before - mmm if i reraise to 450 i'll definatly get him off this pot.

I doubt he has even looked at his own hand. He thinks you are full of it and will get you to fold.

5starpool · 17-02-2006 11:55am

handsfree wrote:

would you push for a grand with action like that. you have to assume your beaten when a player is that confident

Against most players you would be behind, but idiots like this refuse to accept that a badly played high pair can get beaten when an Ace doesnt come on the flop.

Comments like David-k's don't particularly help the debate either.

Gholimoli · 17-02-2006 11:55am

GreeBo wrote:

Surely you love these guys if they are so bad?
I mean they must be cannon fodder to your WSOP style play?
Or is the problem that they can beat you by playing in a style that you are not used to/comfortable with?

Greebo,
just for your information WSOP is a tourney and the strategies involved would differ significantly from a cash game.
i would think you know this after over a 1000 posts ,but then again if you did know this why bring such an irrelevant topic to this discussion.
also just because this dude won one pot does not mean i or Nicky or a better player can not beat him. When you don’t have a read on player you assume he is able to play standard ABC poker at least and you make your decisions based on that.
Standard ABC poker suggests your beat here and you should fold and that what happened.

marius · 17-02-2006 11:57am

david-k wrote:

It seems to me that some of the "better" players make great reads like Nicky did here and then dont have the courage of their convictions and follow it through.

1) Nicky did not make a good read here - he got it wrong.
2) He did have the courage to follow his read through - he folded.

Gholimoli · 17-02-2006 12:01pm

david-k wrote:

who won the hand?the so called bad player!

It would take a great player to push with J6o after that action on that flop.

It seems to me that some of the "better" players make great reads like Nicky did here and then dont have the courage of their convictions and follow it through.

if you were to eliminate the possibility of an over pair here then based on the action ,there is not that many hands villain could have that Nicky can beat.
as for the over pair, how many people limp after a limper with AA,KK and give that much action when one is clearly saying they beat a single pair?

5starpool · 17-02-2006 12:02pm

marius wrote:

1) Nicky did not make a good read here - he got it wrong.
2) He did have the courage to follow his read through - he folded.

Your stupid points contradict each other!! If he made a bad read, he assumed he was behind and folded.

How did he not have the courage to follow through if he did what his head told him to?

Either he made a good read, but still folded which is your second point, or he made a bad read and folded, your first point.

Would you have called here Marius?

Gholimoli · 17-02-2006 12:03pm

charlesanto wrote:

Mr. bad player is sitting there looking at tilty Nicky thinking ....
... NOD didn't raise the blinds he must have Shiite (I'm gonna get him off this one)
... NOD bets 8, standard probe bet, showing no strength- he must have ****e (i'm gonna get him off this one)
... Jeasus, reraise to 125 that show's real strength - but i've seen NOD make that move before - mmm if i reraise to 450 i'll definatly get him off this pot.

I doubt he has even looked at his own hand. He thinks you are full of it and will get you to fold.

i would agree with this if villain had some trash or a draw of some sort.
holding KK he actually thought he had the best hand simply becasue it was bigger than any pair on the board.

GreeBo · 17-02-2006 12:06pm

Gholimoli wrote:

Greebo,
just for your information WSOP is a tourney and the strategies involved would differ significantly from a cash game.

well duh

Gholimoli wrote:

i would think you know this after over a 1000 posts ,but then again if you did know this why bring such an irrelevant topic to this discussion.

Post count is board wide, not just poker forum.

Gholimoli wrote:

also just because this dude won one pot does not mean i or Nicky or a better player can not beat him.

Im not saying that, dont get your knickers all knotted up. You are still super players.:rolleyes:
Why you feel the need to slag off some guy who beat you is beyond me though.
I mean do you analyse everyone who bluffs you so you can pat yourself on the back and say "its ok, Im a better player than they are" or just take it like a man. You got bluffed, boo hoo, get over it and go play so more.

fuzzbox · 17-02-2006 12:06pm

How bad is he?
Will he go to the felt with AJ/KJ here?
What about 56?
Does he play his draws aggressively or passively?

GreeBo · 17-02-2006 12:08pm

Gholimoli wrote:

i would agree with this if villain had some trash or a draw of some sort.
holding KK he actually thought he had the best hand simply becasue it was bigger than any pair on the board.

or maybe, as described above, he decided that OP was full of it and decided to scare him off, with the backup of having highest pair if called...

fuzzbox · 17-02-2006 12:09pm

NickyOD wrote:

Cutoff and one player had limped in front of him.

What were the suits of the cards on board?

OilBeefHooked2 · 17-02-2006 12:11pm

5starpool wrote:

Comments like David-k's don't particularly help the debate either.

poker isn't only about winning with the best hand, I'm not sure if your familiar with the concept of bluffing?

Nicky had the best of it and was prob tilting as he was having a bad night.

Therefore even though the guy showed KK he could have made the same move with any 2.

kickintheteeth · 17-02-2006 12:11pm

The fact of the matter is, Nickys balls had shrunk so much from being down €900 from "rivers cards", that he couldn't handle another one.
Nicky knew he was a bad player, but was too scared of losing again, to call.
if he had been up €900 or even even, he prob would have called!

marius · 17-02-2006 12:12pm

Originally Posted by marius
1) Nicky did not make a good read here - he got it wrong.
2) He did have the courage to follow his read through - he folded.

5starpool wrote:

Your stupid points contradict each other!! If he made a bad read, he assumed he was behind and folded.

How did he not have the courage to follow through if he did what his head told him to?

Either he made a good read, but still folded which is your second point, or he made a bad read and folded, your first point.

Would you have called here Marius?

Read what I said again.....:mad:

He made a bad read - he thought he was behind......
Having made the bad read he did have the courage to follow through with his read - he folded....

where is the confision?

I would have called.....but that is because I am nowhere near as good as nicky...

5starpool · 17-02-2006 12:14pm

GreeBo wrote:

I mean do you analyse everyone who bluffs you so you can pat yourself on the back and say "its ok, Im a better player than they are" or just take it like a man. You got bluffed, boo hoo, get over it and go play so more.

He wasn't bluffing with KK. The way you are talking, you think this guy would have made the same move with AK or something. He acted that way because he genuinly did not realise he could be behind, if the description given of him is correct, and having heard how he knocked Oscar out in Drogheda I would believe it.

fuzzbox · 17-02-2006 12:14pm

charlesanto wrote:

Mr. bad player is sitting there looking at tilty Nicky thinking ....
... NOD didn't raise the blinds he must have Shiite (I'm gonna get him off this one)
... NOD bets 8, standard probe bet, showing no strength- he must have ****e (i'm gonna get him off this one)
... Jeasus, reraise to 125 that show's real strength - but i've seen NOD make that move before - mmm if i reraise to 450 i'll definatly get him off this pot.

I doubt he has even looked at his own hand. He thinks you are full of it and will get you to fold.

More likely

Bad player thinks
- Im gonna trap in the CO with my KK, haha, aren't I smart
- Ohhh, the SB leads out, good, he has a J, I've got the best hand, I raise
- He has reraised, thats BRILLIANT, I've got him so destroyed, I'm gonna get all the money in now, because I've got the best hand - I reraise.

He aint bluffing.

Gholimoli · 17-02-2006 12:14pm

GreeBo wrote:

well duh

Post count is board wide, not just poker forum.

Im not saying that, dont get your knickers all knotted up. You are still super players.:rolleyes:
Why you feel the need to slag off some guy who beat you is beyond me though.
I mean do you analyse everyone who bluffs you so you can pat yourself on the back and say "its ok, Im a better player than they are" or just take it like a man. You got bluffed, boo hoo, get over it and go play so more.

see that’s the problem, your poker logic is letting you down again.
if you stop for a second and think about the situation in hand(im sure your smart enough to be able to do this, give it a try anyway) you will realize that the player wasn’t bluffing or try to bluff, he was betting for value in his mind.
if you fail to get the difference then i think you should stop participating in poker discussions and gather all your energy (that your clearly wasting on poker)and concentrate on something else.(i hope you can take this like a man:cool: )

fuzzbox · 17-02-2006 12:16pm

Gholimoli wrote:

if you were to eliminate the possibility of an over pair here then based on the action ,there is not that many hands villain could have that Nicky can beat.
as for the over pair, how many people limp after a limper with AA,KK and give that much action when one is clearly saying they beat a single pair?

In actuality - there are not many hands that beat Nicky.
The only question is - does villain have one of them.

5starpool · 17-02-2006 12:17pm

marius wrote:

Read what I said again.....:mad:

He made a bad read - he thought he was behind......
Having made the bad read he did have the courage to follow through with his read - he folded....

where is the confision?

I would have called.....but that is because I am nowhere near as good as nicky...

Apology on the way via telegram

d'oh. When i read the sentence I expected a 'not' to logically follow the 'did'. Now that was a bad read by me. I didn't put you on that.