Thoughts on Folding AK to reraise all-in

NickyOD

98 runners left in the $30 rebuy.

Average stack is 12K. 40 places pay. There are a lot of very bad players at my table. Second to act I raise to 1200 with AK. A player who is new to the table goes all in and has me covered. I fold.

How many of you make these calls with AK?

***** Hand History for Game 3549024168 *****
NL Texas Hold'em Trny:20146350 Level:9 Blinds (200/400) - Monday, February 13, 18:26:17 EDT 2006
Table $35K Guaranteed R&A(597448) Table #10 (Real Money)
Seat 3 is the button
Total number of players : 10
Seat 3: MrMikeyGman ( $3880 )
Seat 7: NickyOD ( $8660 )
Seat 9: EkaterinaGrt ( $14455 )
Seat 2: AngerPush ( $4650 )
Seat 4: rryan001 ( $20535 )
Seat 10: Hikkespett ( $8360 )
Seat 1: VladB ( $13303 )
Seat 8: Paghman ( $9150 )
Seat 5: Boomer3023 ( $18029 )
Seat 6: PayMeBtchs ( $8557 )
Trny:20146350 Level:9
Blinds (200/400)
** Dealing down cards **
Dealt to NickyOD [ As Kh ]
PayMeBtchs folds.
NickyOD raises [1200].
Paghman folds.
EkaterinaGrt folds.
Hikkespett is all-In [8360]
VladB folds.
AngerPush folds.
MrMikeyGman folds.
rryan001 folds.
Boomer3023 folds.
NickyOD folds.
Hikkespett does not show cards.
Hikkespett wins 10160 chips

RoundTower

I call. I expect a random €30 rebuy player could be doing this with AQ or AJ or 76 from time to time, which makes it a call even if he also does this with AA/KK. I do think it's close though.

Sounds like you thought you could win chips more easily off the bad players at your table than taking a likely coinflip here. I don't think this is true, if you double up you will be in so much better shape to outplay the worse players. If you had an above average stack, and the blinds were proportionately higher, then that might be an issue.

5starpool

I folded this in the fitz 100 game earlier. There was a shortstacked raise (not all in for some reason but half his stack UTG so pot committed), a caller and a reraise all-in by a LAG player. I was fairly shortstacked on the small blind and folded. Not the first time I folded AK preflop, and it won't be the last.

In the above example though with 1 player I call. I wouldn't like it too much, but I call.

spectre

you're getting 1.4/1 on the rest of your money against one player. That certainly argues in favour of a call against all pps excluding AA KK. He could easily have AK or possibly even AQ in which case you're favourite. I think I'd call here.
The same thing happened to me in the Citywest 250 game. I folded, he showed AK.

NickyOD

RoundTower wrote:

I call. I expect a random €30 rebuy player could be doing this with AQ or AJ or 76 from time to time, which makes it a call even if he also does this with AA/KK. I do think it's close though.

Sounds like you thought you could win chips more easily off the bad players at your table than taking a likely coinflip here. I don't think this is true, if you double up you will be in so much better shape to outplay the worse players. If you had an above average stack, and the blinds were proportionately higher, then that might be an issue.

You are probably right. When it comes to multis lately I have walked AK into Aces a hell of a lot of times so I've been shying away from calling for all my chips with it even when I definitely should.

Having said that I will probably go out of the tournament here over 50% of the time. I despise getting all my chips in preflop unless I have AA/KK or I am the one doing the pushing.

So 2 hands later I get doubled up by a retard. with K8 when I have aces on a flop A-8-3.

Then closer to the money this happens. I ****ing give up.

***** Hand History for Game 3549209564 *****
NL Texas Hold'em Trny:20146350 Level:11 Blinds (400/800) - Monday, February 13, 18:58:43 EDT 2006
Table $35K Guaranteed R&A(597448) Table #7 (Real Money)
Seat 3 is the button
Total number of players : 8
Seat 1: strazin ( $17814 )
Seat 3: dabossmon ( $61400 )
Seat 4: NickyOD ( $15357 )
Seat 6: Tbel1 ( $13328 )
Seat 7: pawnUz ( $44422 )
Seat 8: IG_Rounder ( $19732 )
Seat 9: klinteparken ( $8628 )
Seat 10: dstruck111 ( $15073 )
Trny:20146350 Level:11
Blinds (400/800)
** Dealing down cards **
Dealt to NickyOD [ Ks Ad ]
pawnUz calls [800].
IG_Rounder folds.
klinteparken folds.
dstruck111 folds.
strazin folds.
dabossmon calls [800].
NickyOD raises [2600].
Tbel1 calls [2200].
pawnUz calls [2200].
dabossmon calls [2200].
** Dealing Flop ** [ Qc, Ac, 9h ]
NickyOD is all-In.
Tbel1: chit
Tbel1 will be using his time bank for this hand.
Tbel1 folds.
pawnUz folds.
dabossmon calls [12357].
** Dealing Turn ** [ Jd ]
** Dealing River ** [ 2c ]
NickyOD shows [ Ks, Ad ] a pair of aces.
dabossmon shows [ Kc, 3c ] a flush, ace high.
dabossmon wins 36714 chips from the main pot with a flush, ace high.
Player NickyOD finished in 60 place

RoundTower

NickyOD wrote:

Having said that I will probably go out of the tournament here over 50% of the time. I despise getting all my chips in preflop unless I have AA/KK or I am the one doing the pushing.

I assume you mean in a situation like this where you have 20+ BB. Even then sometimes you'll have to get all in with JJ, etc, and you're often better off calling an all in than pushing yourself.

Any time I've folded AK preflop I've had a very strong suspicion my opponent had AA or KK. Obviously this is too loose and sometimes I should get away from it when I think they have say JJ-AA.

OilBeefHooked2

thats a bit unlucky alrite but he did have the chips to gamble with.

NickyOD

david-k wrote:

thats a bit unlucky alrite but he did have the chips to gamble with.

The fact that he had chips was the reason why he shouldn't gamble. There's nothing wrong with his call after the flop, but he shouldn't have been in the hand in the first place.

The C Kid

NickyOD wrote:

The fact that he had chips was the reason why he shouldn't gamble. There's nothing wrong with his call after the flop, but he shouldn't have been in the hand in the first place.

He limped on the button with a suited King with a big stack, and then called the raise getting 4.45/1 to call. Its not the worst play of all time.

Had you any history with the all-in raiser in the OP?

Gholimoli

RoundTower wrote:

I assume you mean in a situation like this where you have 20+ BB. Even then sometimes you'll have to get all in with JJ, etc, and you're often better off calling an all in than pushing yourself.
.

This is terrible advice. You are never better off calling all in that pushing all in.
This is fairly basic. Pushing gives you two chances of winning. Your opponents fold or you end up with the best hand. Calling gives you one way to win you have to show the best hand.
To the OP:
I don’t think your stack was deep enough to be able to get away from AK in the first hand. Also with another 90 ppl left in the game you needed to double up to have a shot at going deep and winning the tourney. I would take 50/50 here with AK every time. true there is a chance that you may be against AA, or KK but there is a bigger chance you may be against AQ,AJ.
Also most people would reriase with AA rather than going all in.
All the same I would call here unless I knew villain had AA or KK.

Samba

Boyle Sports 1k Tourney.

UTG (Ken Doherty) Raies up 1/4 of his stack (short) the button who has me covered, then pushes, I look down to see AKs spades. oh dear.....

after some deliberation, the button made it an easy fold.

It was down to 45 players or so, huge blinds....

Ken 99, button 22, Flop AK2.

I like seeing flops (when at all possible) with AK.


I will regularly fold AK to all in bets HU, as it usuallly means a PP (this would apply to a player on which i have no notes, people who i peg for AQ-Arag are getting called down every time) constantly taking coin flips does little for your bankroll and constantly relying on coin flips in a tourney to double you up, is a game of chance, not so much skill

Gholimoli

Samba wrote:

Boyle Sports 1k Tourney.

UTG (Ken Doherty) Raies up 1/4 of his stack (short) the button who has me covered, then pushes, I look down to see AKs spades. oh dear.....

after some deliberation, the button made it an easy fold.

It was down to 45 players or so, huge blinds....

Ken 99, button 22, Flop AK2.

I like seeing flops (when at all possible) with AK.


I will regularly fold AK to all in bets HU, as it usuallly means a PP (this would apply to a player on which i have no notes, people who i peg for AQ-Arag are getting called down every time) constantly taking coin flips does little for your bankroll and constantly relying on coin flips in a tourney to double you up, is a game of chance, not so much skill

in order for you to win a tourney ,you will need to win good few 50/50 situations to double up.
Unless you have been lucky and have a healthy stack then avoiding 50/50 situations is not really a matter of choice i don’t think.
However there is the matter of where and when you should take your 50/50 shots.
IMO during the mid stages of the game is where most should take 50/50.
im all up for post-flop play but that’s a luxury only suited for people who have a deep stack. Playing AK post-flop when your only about 10-15BB deep and there is a raise in to you is just a major chip dump.
the worse possible way IMO to play AK is in such a way that you have to hit the flop or else fold. This is ok if you’re deep enough to be able to afford to fold but under any other circumstances (usually 10-15B) you should really push as this will ensure you see the 5 cards and not just the flop.
Also with AK and a 10-15BB you have fold equity which makes things better than 50/50.
If you were just to call with it then yeah your were prob 50/50 but there are a lot of hands that would justify a raise but not a calling an over the top push. for example villain raises to 3BB with 55 but if you come over the top for another 12BB then there are many players who would lay the hand down.

Samba

Yes Gholi,

This was a deepstacked tournament and at the point I did have a healthy stack of around 30 bb's.

In your average stacked tourney i would agree there was not need to risk my stack at that point, especially to a rock who had not played a hand in 3 orbits......i was shocked to see 22, had I read him for 22, I would have called in a flash.


You are taking my post the wrong you, i do not simply flat call every time i have AK, i put in a healthy re-raise......I then see how my opponents react...please do not presume my style of play

You can out play an opponent on the flop, stick them all in the middle and the play is taken out of the hand....and you lose potential to bluff at pots.

I.e Q10x flop with your opponent holding a PP, this is a scary flop for him and you can represent a hand....and you have outs to improve if he starts calling.


I think you need correct reads to justify calling off your stack with AK, running into AA/KK is no joke and it happens.

3rd player gone from the above tourney in question called an all in bet with AKs to find he was up against AA.

Would you call off your entire stack with AKs at the WSOP... healthily stacked, 3 days into the tourney?

I would think it unwise to do so.

When i say HU, 1v1 STT's, there is no point in constantly calling for coin flips, this is break even play and futile and only increases the amount of rake i pay to a site.


How many is a few? how often will you gamble on a coin flip in a said tourney?

I can tell you that i've gone on stints of losing 15 coin flips straight......I am no fan of them and when at all possible I will shy away from them, I do agree that there is always a point in a tourney where you must take some chances to increase your stack size... around the bubble I do not believe is the right time to do so.

Nicky I presume blinds were 200-400? you have 20 bb's and you could find yourself short stacked quite soon, the added fact that it's a 30 rebuy may just entice me to call here, where is the CL? How far infront is he?

Gholimoli

I hate calling off my entire stack. I leave that to the calling stations.
I would easily get away from AK if I had to call with it unless I knew the villain pushing is at it with any Ax ,Kx.
Im not assuming anything about your style man .having said that the example you gave about out playing opponents post flop does require chips.
You need enough chips to be able to apply pressure and at the same not hurt you’re self badly if villain has a made hand. You said you will not flat call with AK but you reraise a healthy amount to see the villain’s reaction. well for argument sake lets say you have 15BB and so does villain. he makes it 4BB to play ,what sort of healthy reraise can you make here with out leaving your self pot committed?
As for when or where to take coin flips, I know its not a nice spot to be in but I think it’s the nature of the game.
As to why I say mid stages of a tourney (and I agree not near the bubble at all unless your very short) because during the early stages the blinds are so low that the chances of you getting a better opportunity is high.
During the end and the bubble the chances of being able to steal to build a stack is very high with out having to risk going bust.
But I don’t mind going out during the mid stages of a tourney (say 250 entrance and about 100 left) in order to build a healthy stack for the remainder of the game knowing a double up here will give me command of the table.

Culchie

Samba wrote:

Nicky I presume blinds were 200-400? you have 20 bb's and you could find yourself short stacked quite soon, the added fact that it's a 30 rebuy may just entice me to call here, where is the CL? How far infront is he?

This is the deciding factor as far as I'm concerned, he's down to 7.4K if he folds.

I don't like taking on too many 50/50's (if that's what this is?), but Nicky could be, and probably is well ahead and dominating.

I'd have called.

Samba

Sorry i was not clear, yes you are right, you need chips to apply that pressure, no doubt about it. I was speaking in relation to full stacked 1v1 STT scenario.

Depending on how far infront the CL is will decide if I call, if there is a big gap and you want to win this tourney, I think this is a call you have to make

Samba

whoops

Ballyman

Call call call. You never know. This might happen to you!!! :eek:

jem

I would fold and have done in the past.
My attidude is if i am puting in all my chips it will be at a time of my choseing and not at someone elses.
I folded trip queens on sat last at the team event with a board of j,10,rag, q 3 spades. i bet he went all in , i thought he might have ak for straight , i was right, he showed the ak.

Gholimoli

jem wrote:

I would fold and have done in the past.
My attidude is if i am puting in all my chips it will be at a time of my choseing and not at someone elses.
I folded trip queens on sat last at the team event with a board of j,10,rag, q 3 spades. i bet he went all in , i thought he might have ak for straight , i was right, he showed the ak.

dolding a set of Qs just because its POSSIBLE for some on to have AK is not good play.
its like saying i would my AA on a board of AKK cuz some one may have KK.
is it possible ?yes? but so are alot other hands.
im not saying it was a bad fold,but the way you said it was you folded cuz it was possible some one could have AK.

5starpool

Gholimoli wrote:

dolding a set of Qs just because its POSSIBLE for some on to have AK is not good play.
its like saying i would my AA on a board of AKK cuz some one may have KK.
is it possible ?yes? but so are alot other hands.
im not saying it was a bad fold,but the way you said it was you folded cuz it was possible some one could have AK.

I seen the oddest play last night in the 100 FO in the Fitz. Raised pf to 3BB (600 I think), 1 caller.

Flop Qs8c3h - checked
Turn 5h - 500 bet by preflop raiser. Called.
River 6h - 1k bet by pf raiser. Raised to 2k immediately.

Other guy thinks and says 'the only cards that beat me are 2h4h, so I will call'. He turned over the Ah9h!!!!!!! Talk about being scared of an unlikely hand. Other guy had KhJh, so would have called an all in, and was covered. This guy then knocked me out an hour later, so it shows knock on consequences.

kincsem

Fold. You're beat. He has a pair.

In the WSOP Seniors in 2004 second to speak made a standard bet. Behind him I folded AKo. Knew I was behind and five more to speak. Button called. Flop AK8. He bet, was called, checked the turn, and bet the river, was raised all-in, called. His pocket 88 was beaten by TJQKA.

califano

5starpool wrote:

I seen the oddest play last night in the 100 FO in the Fitz. Raised pf to 3BB (600 I think), 1 caller.

Flop Qs8c3h - checked
Turn 5h - 500 bet by preflop raiser. Called.
River 6h - 1k bet by pf raiser. Raised to 2k immediately.

Other guy thinks and says 'the only cards that beat me are 2h4h, so I will call'. He turned over the Ah9h!!!!!!! Talk about being scared of an unlikely hand. Other guy had KhJh, so would have called an all in, and was covered. This guy then knocked me out an hour later, so it shows knock on consequences.

Sounds like the sort of player that would have been happy to see the other player with 2h4h so he could say "I knew it, i knew it ,thats why i didnt go all-in.

jem

Gholimoli wrote:

dolding a set of Qs just because its POSSIBLE for some on to have AK is not good play.
its like saying i would my AA on a board of AKK cuz some one may have KK.
is it possible ?yes? but so are alot other hands.
im not saying it was a bad fold,but the way you said it was you folded cuz it was possible some one could have AK.

My read on the way he played the pot and the previous pots when he hit 3/4 houses was that he had hit the straight.
Wouldn't normally have done so also IFelt it wasn't worth going burst on it.I hav no problem in sticking my chips in, normally pick my spots and push them as opposed to calling them in.

connie147

The C Kid wrote:

He limped on the button with a suited King with a big stack, and then called the raise getting 4.45/1 to call. Its not the worst play of all time.

Had you any history with the all-in raiser in the OP?

nicky, with only 20 BB left, do you not think your raise was too small pre flop?. id normally raise enough in a similar situation to let other players know im committing myself to the pot (say 4000-5000) and hopefully take the pot down there and then.A-K is not an easy hand to play at the best of times but with a small raise your bound to get action.

NickyOD

connie147 wrote:

nicky, with only 20 BB left, do you not think your raise was too small pre flop?. id normally raise enough in a similar situation to let other players know im committing myself to the pot (say 4000-5000) and hopefully take the pot down there and then.A-K is not an easy hand to play at the best of times but with a small raise your bound to get action.

I'm not a lover of varying preflop raise amount. I tend to open raise the same amount preflop every time. This way I never give away my holding. If there were limpers in the pot in front of me then I would raise more. Also inflating the pot unnecessarily means if I get smooth called the hand is more dificult to play with more of my chips in the pot. 1800 is a substantial raise at this point in the tournament since it represents 10% of the average stack.

mewso

I would have folded. I think Nicky, you proved your own point by doubling up later. The value of having idiots at your table. My aim in raising with any un-paired pocket cards be it Ak to 72o is to take the blinds pure and simple. Raising hands are so often not calling hands. KQ for example. The amount of time I see players calling for all their chips with marginal hands like KQ is amazing. Great raising hand, far from a great calling hand. I don't consider AK that much different. 7.4k after folding is an M of 12 which imo leaves you still in fine shape. Against moderate opposition a re-raise will more often than not be a PP but the flip-side as always will be that against weak opposition it could easily be AQ so I don't consider calling here a mistake just a choice I would not make.

RoundTower

Gholimoli wrote:

This [calling an all in with JJ instead of pushing] is terrible advice. You are never better off calling all in that pushing all in.
This is fairly basic. Pushing gives you two chances of winning. Your opponents fold or you end up with the best hand. Calling gives you one way to win you have to show the best hand.

This is a fallacy I see here a lot. "I like to be the raiser, not the caller", etc. Of course you can win the pot in two ways by raising instead of by calling. But you would still rather be calling an all in a lot of the time.

Jaden

If you would call an all-in with AKos, would you do it with any PP?

If not, why not?

AK is the most overrated hand in poker. It's hard to let go, and can get you into all kinds of trouble. I like AK in small raised or unraised pots. I'll throw it away to most all-ins, unless the guy is LAG.

RoundTower

Jaden wrote:

If you would call an all-in with AKos, would you do it with any PP?

If not, why not?

AK is the most overrated hand in poker.

This is very basic.

Lets say you think your opponent has a pocket pair, and you are getting 1.4 to 1 on your money from the pot. If you call with 22, you will lose money in the long run because you will only win the pot 20% of the time. If you call with AK you will win money in the long run because you will win the pot about 50% of the time.

Jaden

You're right, it is basic. Let me expand on a few thoughts.

Firstly, I'm a tight player. I have no trouble dropping AT, KJ or PP <66 to raised pots preflop. I will often let 77-99, KQ and AK go if there is too much action preflop. This is especially true early on in MTTs, which is mostly what I play. Even TT I play for set value.

When I examine for leaks in my game, AK is always there. I used to call raises pre-flop with it, without hesitation. If I missed the flop, I might even call small action with it.

When I modified my game, and played AK more passively preflop, and more agressively when I hit, it stopped leaking chips for me.

Alot of how I play AK, or play against AK is to do with my style. I really, really try to live by the axiom that you should let other players try to beat you, and make mistakes doing so. Sometimes this borders on passive, but it seems to get me better results. Because agressive players tend to overplay AK (in my opinion), I will call alot of these guys with small PP, if I can isolate. I reckon I bust out more players when they're holding AK, than any other hand. For the times I'm up against an overpair, I'm compensated by beating AK.

While holding AK, I know I have a hand with good potential, but that's all I have. I'll push if shortstacked, and need to double up, - but most of the time I'll limp in, or call <4xBB raises. I will give it up if I miss completely, or if I think the other chap has hit anything. Unless very strongly compelled to do so by pot odds, I will never play AK against a suspected PP.

This aside, AK is priceless against A,rag merchants. You will always be 70/30 to take the chips, and the number of people who overplay such muck is staggering. You will occasionally get sucked out by A,5 with two pair hitting, but by the same token you will clean up when a guy can't let his A,x go with an A on the flop, and no pre-flop raise.

RoundTower

Jaden wrote:

Unless very strongly compelled to do so by pot odds, I will never play AK against a suspected PP.

This aside, AK is priceless against A,rag merchants. You will always be 70/30 to take the chips, and the number of people who overplay such muck is staggering. You will occasionally get sucked out by A,5 with two pair hitting, but by the same token you will clean up when a guy can't let his A,x go with an A on the flop, and no pre-flop raise.

It just isn't that easy to tell that a player has Ax this time, and then the next time someone raises preflop you put them on a medium pocket pair. 90% of the time when people say they do this it is results-based thinking. But yes it is great to have AK when someone else has AJ, and you're in pretty good shape if you have AK when they have 88. So if you figure someone has "probably a pocket pair 77+ or a big ace AT+", which is a much more realistic read, you can't go far wrong calling a sizeable preflop raise with AK.

fuzzbox

Jaden wrote:

You're right, it is basic. Let me expand on a few thoughts.

Firstly, I'm a tight player. I have no trouble dropping AT, KJ or PP <66 to raised pots preflop. I will often let 77-99, KQ and AK go if there is too much action preflop. This is especially true early on in MTTs, which is mostly what I play. Even TT I play for set value.

When I examine for leaks in my game, AK is always there. I used to call raises pre-flop with it, without hesitation. If I missed the flop, I might even call small action with it.

When I modified my game, and played AK more passively preflop, and more agressively when I hit, it stopped leaking chips for me.

Alot of how I play AK, or play against AK is to do with my style. I really, really try to live by the axiom that you should let other players try to beat you, and make mistakes doing so. Sometimes this borders on passive, but it seems to get me better results. Because agressive players tend to overplay AK (in my opinion), I will call alot of these guys with small PP, if I can isolate. I reckon I bust out more players when they're holding AK, than any other hand. For the times I'm up against an overpair, I'm compensated by beating AK.

While holding AK, I know I have a hand with good potential, but that's all I have. I'll push if shortstacked, and need to double up, - but most of the time I'll limp in, or call <4xBB raises. I will give it up if I miss completely, or if I think the other chap has hit anything. Unless very strongly compelled to do so by pot odds, I will never play AK against a suspected PP.

This aside, AK is priceless against A,rag merchants. You will always be 70/30 to take the chips, and the number of people who overplay such muck is staggering. You will occasionally get sucked out by A,5 with two pair hitting, but by the same token you will clean up when a guy can't let his A,x go with an A on the flop, and no pre-flop raise.

A lot of this is very very very wrong.

You do NOT compensate for the times your pair runs into a higher pair by beating AK a bunch of times. If you raise, and somebody goes all in and you have 77. If his range is - either 88+ OR AK. Then YOU SHOULD FOLD, your hand is a piece of cheese Vs his range. When he has a higher pair you are 4:1 AGAINST, but when he has AK, you are 55:45. You are either a very small favourite or a very big underdog. It is BAD poker to call off your stack with this hand in this spot. Yet you are making out that other people overplay AK ... when the reality is that you seem to overplay crappy PPs.

fuzzbox

connie147 wrote:

nicky, with only 20 BB left, do you not think your raise was too small pre flop?. id normally raise enough in a similar situation to let other players know im committing myself to the pot (say 4000-5000) and hopefully take the pot down there and then.A-K is not an easy hand to play at the best of times but with a small raise your bound to get action.

Might as well just push, if you are going for 4k - 5k.

fuzzbox

Gholimoli wrote:

I hate calling off my entire stack. I leave that to the calling stations.
I would easily get away from AK if I had to call with it unless I knew the villain pushing is at it with any Ax ,Kx.
Im not assuming anything about your style man .having said that the example you gave about out playing opponents post flop does require chips.
You need enough chips to be able to apply pressure and at the same not hurt you’re self badly if villain has a made hand. You said you will not flat call with AK but you reraise a healthy amount to see the villain’s reaction. well for argument sake lets say you have 15BB and so does villain. he makes it 4BB to play ,what sort of healthy reraise can you make here with out leaving your self pot committed?
As for when or where to take coin flips, I know its not a nice spot to be in but I think it’s the nature of the game.
As to why I say mid stages of a tourney (and I agree not near the bubble at all unless your very short) because during the early stages the blinds are so low that the chances of you getting a better opportunity is high.
During the end and the bubble the chances of being able to steal to build a stack is very high with out having to risk going bust.
But I don’t mind going out during the mid stages of a tourney (say 250 entrance and about 100 left) in order to build a healthy stack for the remainder of the game knowing a double up here will give me command of the table.

If you raise, get reraised all-in and fold, when you are getting the right price to call, then YOU have made a mistake.

When the chips are shallow, if you never fold AK preflop after you have put some chips in the pot, then you wont go too far wrong (in general).

When the chips are deep, AK often gives reverse implied odds, so it is a dangerous hand.

AK great preflop semi-bluffing hand. That is its strength. It is very rarely dominated and can often dominate your opponent (holding AQ or AJ), and if not then its usually up against a smaller pair, giving it a good chance to win, even if called.

Shallow - play for the lot
Deep - careful

RoundTower

Jaden wrote:

Firstly, I'm a tight player. I have no trouble dropping AT, KJ or PP <66 to raised pots preflop. Even TT I play for set value.

I'm not sure you are a tight player. If you had said "I generally fold AQ to a single raise" that would be more like it. Fuzzbox is a tight player

And I don't see why you play TT "for set value" but you call with TT in places where you wouldn't call with 44. 44 is just as likely to flop a set, and set over set is very rare.

fuzzbox

I resemble that remark

Jaden

Good point, and well made. However, my forte in Poker is reading other players. After an hour at a table, I can usually spot a mid pair from 20 feet away. How a player looks at his hole cards can be a giveaway here, particularly post flop. If I don't think it's a PP, I assume A,x - how big x is depends on the player and his betting patterns. Sticking to this general formula, coupled with knowledge of a players starting hand selection, can yield suprisingly accurate predictions of a players holdings. Poker is a pissing contest for some people, but a cat & mouse game for players like me.


MTTs suit observant players, as the longer a game goes on, the harder it is for players to avoid patterened play. It's human nature to be habitual. Alot of how you play AK depends on the type of game you're playing. In cash games, AK is great. When you call large preflop raises, it is the correct call, as in the long run, you will make money on this. In STTs, alot of the same logic applies.

MTTs are slightly different. In one of these, a player must always be mindful of busting out. Playing 4 coinflips when you are 55/45 in a cash game is bang on. Doing it in a MTT can be suicide. For this reason alone, I am wary of AK.

The OP asking if folding AKos to an all-in, is an easier choice for me than a great many. Again, my choice game, and style of play dicatates this. Faced in such a situation, I would much rather have TT than AKos. To be honest I would rather push with TT than call with AK. It's all about individual style.

Interesting to see how highly other players think of AK.

fuzzbox

Jaden wrote:

Good point, and well made. However, my forte in Poker is reading other players. After an hour at a table, I can usually spot a mid pair from 20 feet away. How a player looks at his hole cards can be a giveaway here, particularly post flop. If I don't think it's a PP, I assume A,x - how big x is depends on the player and his betting patterns. Sticking to this general formula, coupled with knowledge of a players starting hand selection, can yield suprisingly accurate predictions of a players holdings. Poker is a pissing contest for some people, but a cat & mouse game for players like me.


MTTs suit observant players, as the longer a game goes on, the harder it is for players to avoid patterened play. It's human nature to be habitual. Alot of how you play AK depends on the type of game you're playing. In cash games, AK is great. When you call large preflop raises, it is the correct call, as in the long run, you will make money on this. In STTs, alot of the same logic applies.

MTTs are slightly different. In one of these, a player must always be minbful of busting out. Playing 4 coinflips when you are 55/45 in a cash game is bang on. Doing it in a MTT can be suicide. For this reason alone, I am wary of AK.

The OP asking if folding AKos to an all-in, is an easier choice for me than a great many. Again, my choice game, and style of play dicatates this. Faced in such a situation, I would much rather have TT than AKos. To be honest I would rather push with TT than call with AK. It's all about individual style.

Interesting to see how highly other players think of AK.

Your statement that AK performs better in a cash game is incorrect.
Your statement that it is correct to call large raises in a cash game with AK is incorrect
Your statement that you should try to play the short side of 45/55 shots in a cash game is incorrect.

AK is a MUCH better tourney hand than a cash game hand. Much more players overplay Ax in a tourney than in a cash game. Thus when you do manage to get all your chips in preflop with AK, there is a reasonably chance that you are against Ax. You are a big favourite here. There is also some chance that your opponent has two unpaired big cards like KJ or QJ. Again you are a favourite. And there are many times when villain has a smaller pair, and you are not a big underdog.

In a cash game, if you get all in preflop, then it would be unusual for you to be up against a range this wide. Thus, you are most often an underdog if you get all the money in preflop in a cash game.

Calling large raises and reraises with AK is another recipe for disaster. If the flop comes A/K high which happens 1/3rd of the time, then you will get very little more money from somebody who you are now beating, but you will lose a lot extra money from somebody who is now beating you.

2/3rds of the time, you lose your large preflop money
1/3rd of the time you hit your hand but you do not win much more money unless your opponent has you beaten (either with a set or with AA/KK)

A flop of KQ5 with villain ready to go for his stack, is not something you like, neither is AT3 or in fact nearly any flop if villain is ready to go for his stack.

AK rules in tourneys, but is not so good in deep-stacked cash games.

Culchie

Jaden wrote:

Interesting to see how highly other players think of AK.

It is, but the OP in this thread is about a particular situation in a particular tournament with particular stack sizes.

There is no any one way to play AK ... "It depends"

I would play more aggressive with AK towards the end of a tournament, than I would near the start, as I would high pocket pairs.

Sometimes if the stacks sizes are large, I get involved limping in with small PP's or suited connectors, based on risk/reward opportunities.

AK is a powerful starting hand, but like most things powerful, it needs to be handled with care, but being afraid of it is not the right answer either.

mewso

I've always been fascinated by the absolutes applied to tournament poker. The idea that you should call when PO (pot odds) > Odds of winning against range is fine and in a cash game is a solid strategy. Rightly or wrongly I like to consider the possibilty of elimination, the standard of opposition, the stage of the tournament, relative stack sizes, the possibility that the range I have opponent on is incorrect in the equation. In this sense if the pot odds say I should call for all my chips with AK against a range of PP/Ax I do not consider it an auto-call if it's early in a tournament, the opposition is weak, threat of elimination exists, my stack is healthy and so on. If you could enter a tournament with the same prize money and field 2 minutes after elimination continually then perhaps I would then apply pure pot odds to the equation. Maybe my thinking is faulty on this.

fuzzbox

musician wrote:

I've always been fascinated by the absolutes applied to tournament poker. The idea that you should call when PO (pot odds) > Odds of winning against range is fine and in a cash game is a solid strategy. Rightly or wrongly I like to consider the possibilty of elimination, the standard of opposition, the stage of the tournament, relative stack sizes, the possibility that the range I have opponent on is incorrect in the equation. In this sense if the pot odds say I should call for all my chips with AK against a range of PP/Ax I do not consider it an auto-call if it's early in a tournament, the opposition is weak, threat of elimination exists, my stack is healthy and so on. If you could enter a tournament with the same prize money and field 2 minutes after elimination continually then perhaps I would then apply pure pot odds to the equation. Maybe my thinking is faulty on this.

If you are prepared to do it late (which most players are), then you should equally do it early. The opportunity cost of not having chips that you would have won at this stage can be very large. If you won this battle, and got some chips, then you might enable yourself to win MORE chips from players who have bigger stacks.

If you lose, then you lose, but you would no doubt face the same situation later, but have less chips.

Culchie

fuzzbox wrote:

If you are prepared to do it late (which most players are), then you should equally do it early. The opportunity cost of not having chips that you would have won at this stage can be very large. If you won this battle, and got some chips, then you might enable yourself to win MORE chips from players who have bigger stacks.

If you lose, then you lose, but you would no doubt face the same situation later, but have less chips.

Not necessarily so.
I don't agree with this line of thinking regarding tournament play.

For a start, you only have to knock one person out of a MTT to win one.
You don't need to be the hero putting notches on your belt. You can't win an MTT on the first blind level, but you can definitely lose one.

Have you seen an online MTT field? After an hour 50% of the field is normally gone. They knock themselves out playing stupidly most of the time.

I think of it as a minefield. Try and pick the right path, avoid the mines, you will take a few hits, hopefully nothing terminal.... and when you get to the final couple of tables, you go for the jugular.

Jaden

fuzzbox wrote:

Your statement that AK performs better in a cash game is incorrect.
Your statement that it is correct to call large raises in a cash game with AK is incorrect
Your statement that you should try to play the short side of 45/55 shots in a cash game is incorrect.

To clarify (I must have comes across wrong).

AK is a better cash hand for me than an MTT hand. This, as I described, is because of my style of play. Alot of posts here have me re-examining aspects of my play in light of this. Maybe I just need to grow balls and play AK more agressively, especially when I miss.

In the cash games I play, people tend to raise with small to mid PP. Calling preflop raises with AK in these situations is the correct call, almost all the time.

The point about playing small margins in cash games looks to have been misinterpreted. I would NEVER advocate playing a 45/55 dog hand. However, in cash games, if you think you are 51/49 favourite, you should play EVERY time. In MTTs this is not the case. In a cash game 51/49 edges make money, in MTTs it means you go home 49 times out of 100.

Against random hands heads-up, AKos has the same chance as 77. Every point you make is perfectly valid, and good advice. However, it is aimed more at players who are willing to stick it all in the middle preflop. If I do that, I generally do it with AA,KK and maybe QQ.

My reasoning behind prefering small PP to AK in MTTs is that when you do hit your set, you are very likely to get paid off big. Stealth sets are my bread and butter in MTTs.

Jaden

Culchie wrote:

Not necessarily so.
I don't agree with this line of thinking regarding tournament play.

For a start, you only have to knock one person out of a MTT to win one.
You don't need to be the hero putting notches on your belt. You can't win an MTT on the first blind level, but you can definitely lose one.

Have you seen an online MTT field? After an hour 50% of the field is normally gone. They knock themselves out playing stupidly most of the time.

I think of it as a minefield. Try and pick the right path, avoid the mines, you will take a few hits, hopefully nothing terminal.... and when you get to the final couple of tables, you go for the jugular.

I am 100% behind this thinking. Well put.

fuzzbox

Jaden wrote:

To clarify (I must have comes across wrong).

AK is a better cash hand for me than an MTT hand. This, as I described, is because of my style of play. Alot of posts here have me re-examining aspects of my play in light of this. Maybe I just need to grow balls and play AK more agressively, especially when I miss.

In the cash games I play, people tend to raise with small to mid PP. Calling preflop raises with AK in these situations is the correct call, almost all the time.

The point about playing small margins in cash games looks to have been misinterpreted. I would NEVER advocate playing a 45/55 dog hand. However, in cash games, if you think you are 51/49 favourite, you should play EVERY time. In MTTs this is not the case. In a cash game 51/49 edges make money, in MTTs it means you go home 49 times out of 100.

Against random hands heads-up, AKos has the same chance as 77. Every point you make is perfectly valid, and good advice. However, it is aimed more at players who are willing to stick it all in the middle preflop. If I do that, I generally do it with AA,KK and maybe QQ.

My reasoning behind prefering small PP to AK in MTTs is that when you do hit your set, you are very likely to get paid off big. Stealth sets are my bread and butter in MTTs.

Ok, I was not trying to be harsh in my previous post, perhaps it came across that way.

Anyway - I prefer PPs Vs AK also, especially with deep stacks in a cash game. In MTTs (or STTs) then small pairs go down in value, because the cost of seeing a flop is often prohibitive (as players get really aggro with big cards, and the blinds are expensive).
Big cards and big moves go up in value. You should not call an all-in cold with 77, but you should be more inclined to do it with AK. The reason is that, very often, the range of hands that move all-in are favourable when playing AK, but unfavourable when playing 77. In 77 you tend to be either 55/45 or 20/80. With AK you tend to be either 70:30 fave, or 60:40 fave or 45:55 dog. In general you end up turning a profit with the AK, but a loss with the 77.

I do not advocate calling off your stack everytime with AK, but nor do I advocate folding it, when getting the right price, when chips are pretty shallow and you are faced with a big move. I much prefer making the big move myself with AK, but I also have to call off my stack sometimes, even when Im pretty sure Im a small dog.

Gholimoli

musician wrote:

I've always been fascinated by the absolutes applied to tournament poker. The idea that you should call when PO (pot odds) > Odds of winning against range is fine and in a cash game is a solid strategy. Rightly or wrongly I like to consider the possibilty of elimination, the standard of opposition, the stage of the tournament, relative stack sizes, the possibility that the range I have opponent on is incorrect in the equation. In this sense if the pot odds say I should call for all my chips with AK against a range of PP/Ax I do not consider it an auto-call if it's early in a tournament, the opposition is weak, threat of elimination exists, my stack is healthy and so on. If you could enter a tournament with the same prize money and field 2 minutes after elimination continually then perhaps I would then apply pure pot odds to the equation. Maybe my thinking is faulty on this.

great post

Jaden

Just to piss all this up with maths.

Probability of being dealt PP is 5.9%
Probability of being dealt AK is 1.2%

Probability of hitting set with PP on flop is 11.8%
Probability of hitting pair with AK on flop is 32.4%

After a 1000 Hands in MTTs.

Dealt PP 60 times, hitting set on the flop 8 times.
Dealt AK 12 times, hitting top pair 4 times.

Which would you rather, and why? I think (and I am by no means certain) that it depends a great deal on the type of player you are. I can let unimproved PP go if I think I'm beaten easily, and go mad if I hit my set. However, I'm always on thin ice with top pair, top kicker.

I haven'y given this a bucketload of thought, so feel free to point and laugh.

fuzzbox

Of course I would rather a PP (like I said).
However, you are misrepresenting the problem

If you have 15BBs and make a 3BB raise in MP. If one of the blinds then moves-in and has you covered and you call, which would you rather have?

Gholimoli

fuzzbox wrote:

Of course I would rather a PP (like I said).
However, you are misrepresenting the problem

If you have 15BBs and make a 3BB raise in MP. If one of the blinds then moves-in and has you covered and you call, which would you rather have?

this is obviouse.
i rather have AK over 77.

5starpool

fuzzbox wrote:

Of course I would rather a PP (like I said).
However, you are misrepresenting the problem

If you have 15BBs and make a 3BB raise in MP. If one of the blinds then moves-in and has you covered and you call, which would you rather have?

To make the call in the first place I would rather have AK, but once the call is made I would rather have the PP (if you see what I mean).