Software Engineer Salary Question

Starkiller

Hey up!

I gotta question for ye all. I'm a software engineer for the past 5.5 years. I gotta 1.1 degree and loads of Java, UML, systems analysis skills. I am on 40K.

Can anyone give some comments on where this ranks in the pecking order?

Thanks.

toString

I think it might depend on where you are located as well

cousin_borat

It sounds like its on the lower end of the scale for somebody with over 5 years experience as a Java engineer. As toString points out, not enough details given on location, specific experience to give an accurate evaluation. Theres alot of exciting opportunities, especially in area of Web Services. Are you interested in going down the project management road?

UberNewb

Starkiller wrote:

Hey up!

I gotta question for ye all. I'm a software engineer for the past 5.5 years. I gotta 1.1 degree and loads of Java, UML, systems analysis skills. I am on 40K.

Can anyone give some comments on where this ranks in the pecking order?

Thanks.

I'm a software engineer on 60k, it all depends on your employer. Same with programmers...

Peace

UberNewb wrote:

I'm a software engineer on 60k, it all depends on your employer. Same with programmers...

Exactly... its all about who you work for.

I'm programming in .Net almost 2 years and previous 1.5 years in VB6. On 27k now.

irishguy

Peace wrote:

Exactly... its all about who you work for.

I'm programming in .Net almost 2 years and previous 1.5 years in VB6. On 27k now.

is that not a bit low ? I just went for a graduate Java developer position and they are offering 26,000 in dublin. acenture are offering 29,000

Peace

irishguy wrote:

is that not a bit low ? I just went for a graduate Java developer position and they are offering 26,000 in dublin. acenture are offering 29,000

Thats exactly the point, it depends on where you work. If i joined MS with my current qualifications (BTW i have a BSc Comp Sci) I'd start on 37k.

CountryWise

where did you see the Accenture position advertised?? i work for them and didnt even know that position existed

irishguy

Peace wrote:

Thats exactly the point, it depends on where you work. If i joined MS with my current qualifications (BTW i have a BSc Comp Sci) I'd start on 37k.

but intel in shannon are offering 27,000ish and erikson in athlone are offering 26,000 so it doent seem to vary that much, for grads anyway

irishguy

it was on grad ireland they did interviews about 2weeks ago in Limerick

deadfingers

what skill sets do you have Ubernewb? I was talking to a friend who has six years developing experenice and he says that he started in a company as a grad and he thinks that he would be on a lot better money if he left due to the fact that his salary increase's do not match current salary trends. He would not tell what money he was :rolleyes:

CountryWise

salaries seem to vary from County to County also, Wages are higher in Dublin in most cases, unfortuantely so are living prices and generally everything!!

UberNewb

I forgot to point out that I started on a much lower salary and I used to work on much smaller projects of less importance, but over the years my salary has gone up to reflect my experience. I have been with the company for 9 years now

and another pay review is coming soon!

UberNewb

deadfingers wrote:

what skill sets do you have Ubernewb?

Just C++ and SQL but to a very high level as thats all I'll ever need.

randomname

I have to say the majority salaries listed in the thread are really low for dublin ( i dont know all these people are in dublin).

At the moment a grads salary is 30K (in dublin) coming out of college. If you work in a place a long time it doesnt mean your gonna have a high salary but more likely you'll like what you are doing and the environment.

If your working 5 years plus depending on how competent and what field you are in you can easily be getting 60K.

Anyway best way to earn a lot in IT get your 3 - 5 years experience and then start contracting.

I know a few engineers that are on quite a lot contracting with about 6 years experience.

dazberry

Can anyone tell me where these 60k jobs are (and in what!?) - I honestly don't know anyone - myself included that earns that salary in SE - I've been stuck on more or less the same salary (in different companies) for the last 7 years

D.

irishguy

randomname wrote:

I have to say the majority salaries listed in the thread are really low for dublin ( i dont know all these people are in dublin).

At the moment a grads salary is 30K (in dublin) coming out of college. If you work in a place a long time it doesnt mean your gonna have a high salary but more likely you'll like what you are doing and the environment.

If your working 5 years plus depending on how competent and what field you are in you can easily be getting 60K.

Anyway best way to earn a lot in IT get your 3 - 5 years experience and then start contracting.

I know a few engineers that are on quite a lot contracting with about 6 years experience.

very few grad salaries are 30 or above. even in dublin most are 25,000 - 28,000

Draupnir

randomname wrote:

I have to say the majority salaries listed in the thread are really low for dublin ( i dont know all these people are in dublin).

At the moment a grads salary is 30K (in dublin) coming out of college. If you work in a place a long time it doesnt mean your gonna have a high salary but more likely you'll like what you are doing and the environment.

If your working 5 years plus depending on how competent and what field you are in you can easily be getting 60K.

Anyway best way to earn a lot in IT get your 3 - 5 years experience and then start contracting.

I know a few engineers that are on quite a lot contracting with about 6 years experience.

No way grad jobs are 30k in Dublin, the grad bracket is from 25k to 28k max right now in Dublin, I should know, I'm a graduate! As are my 15 - 20 mates all working in various places around Dublin.

Quigs Snr

As a manager trying to recruit staff all over Ireland right now I find most of these salary claims silly.

Grads start early to mid twenties 99% of the time, add 2k for Dublin.

3-5 years puts you up in the 32 - 40 bracket (on average).

5+ you may get 45. This is all as a developer. Project Management, team leads, 50-60 depending on years. Most are closer to the 50 mark.

Some niche markets can do well like DBA's in rare databases, that kind of thing. But in general, the above is realistic. I interviewed/saw CV's of maybe 80 people in Dublin, Waterford, Limerick, Galway, Athlone and those were the numbers these people were putting on their CV's.

Having worked in Dublin for many years and now working elsewhere, I can tell you that the difference in money is far from stellar. In most cases, there is none or less than 10%. Most of the time as has been pointed out it depends on the company, the bigger payers are rarer than rocking horse sh*t and are very much in the minority.

toString

2 1/2 years experience and was on €38K when I left Bristol in the UK 8 months ago, was offered €45K to back there 2 weeks ago

cousin_borat

Some facts and figures on IT Salaries for 2005:
http://www.rescon.ie/IMAGES/Rescon_Salary_Survey_July_2005.doc

I'm currently working as an ERP technical consultant in Oracle, on the second year of a Graduate programme. At the moment just below the lower bracket figure on this survey for my role.

Hope this helps

rsynnott

UberNewb wrote:

Just C++ and SQL but to a very high level as thats all I'll ever need.

That's... foolishly optimistic.

damnyanks

Working in London. Grad's get the equav of 60k euro. Sounds impressive but living cost, working hours etc. all add's up (But still a strong salary all the same)

MrPinK

damnyanks wrote:

Working in London. Grad's get the equav of 60k euro. Sounds impressive but living cost, working hours etc. all add's up (But still a strong salary all the same)

While they certainly make a fair bit more here alright, 60k is a bit of an exaggeration. The only 'grad' jobs I've seen offering near £40k are for PhD grads with 18 months commercial experience. That kind of money is certainly not the norm for grads.

Morpheus

Started on IR£18,000 with BSc C++ and VB6 for about 2 years in nice small software company that went bust.

6 months more on VB6 with finance company in IFSC, hole of a place at €25K

moved to VBA for 6 months at €24K, cool place to work but kept giving me 3 month contracts no salary based pay.

Now doing c# ASP.net and windows forms for last 2 years earning €33K, due a performance review this week, will raise issue of salary too.

Friend of mine left this job for new company earning €45K 3 weeks ago, same experience in .NET as myself, I think he got lucky!!!

bringitdown

Am now on €45k ... with 4.5 years exp, C, C++, Telecomms
That all excludes the benefits - VHI, Contrib. Pension (makes a diff kids)... etc

I know some people in my experience bracket that are not on the same salary and some are on better ... all depends on where / who / how good you are.

rebellad

Am on 40k... with 4.5 years experience, mostly SQL + VB in Cork though

Peace

I think an important point that hasn't been mentnioned is the shortfall in IT grads coming out in recent times (past 2-3 years). I have seen more than one article in the last 6months on the subject. When demand will out strip supply of quaified programmers, then things will change.

Hobbes

Peace wrote:

When demand will out strip supply of quaified programmers, then things will change.

Yea they will outsource to India.

IronMan

I'm on a IT graduate program with a very large semi-state. First year of the program. Basic salary is €31,000. Bonus of €3000 a year. On call allowance of €650 a month. Also get a pension, free broadband, free laptop, free mobile. Which is excellent. Not involved in programming at all, but in storage. Thought I'd miss code, but its being surprisingly and quite pleasent to forget how to invoke a method etc.

Am I gloating, quite potentially! That said, I worked for CPL before that, and was on €20,000. So I've seen what hell looks like.

Phileas Fogg

IronMan wrote:

Am I gloating, quite potentially! That said, I worked for CPL before that, and was on €20,000. So I've seen what hell looks like.

How much were they charging for you per day? :v:

irishguy

IronMan wrote:

I'm on a IT graduate program with a very large semi-state. First year of the program. Basic salary is €31,000. Bonus of €3000 a year. On call allowance of €650 a month. Also get a pension, free broadband, free laptop, free mobile. Which is excellent. Not involved in programming at all, but in storage. Thought I'd miss code, but its being surprisingly and quite pleasent to forget how to invoke a method etc.

Am I gloating, quite potentially! That said, I worked for CPL before that, and was on €20,000. So I've seen what hell looks like.

Who are you working for and what are you doing? If you dont mind telling

IronMan

Who are you working for and what are you doing? If you dont mind telling

I joined the graduate program, thinking I would be working in ABAP scripting for a large SAP project that is underway. However I was made a member of the storage team. An area I never worked in, or had even heard much about. Still learning loads. We manage a very large Storage Area network, over 250TB of data, all to be backed up regularly. So loads of Veritas, EMC software, Fibre switches and so forth. So far I find it much more interesting than programming. I'd prefer not to directly name the company, its one of the big semi-states.

damnyanks

MrPinK wrote:

While they certainly make a fair bit more here alright, 60k is a bit of an exaggeration. The only 'grad' jobs I've seen offering near £40k are for PhD grads with 18 months commercial experience. That kind of money is certainly not the norm for grads.

It's for people with Undergrad. Generally companies paying 40k sterling don't advertise the fact they pay such a good salary. This helps weed out the applicants I'd imagine as people dont apply based on the salary alone.

Who are you working for and what are you doing? If you dont mind telling

I joined the graduate program, thinking I would be working in ABAP scripting for a large SAP project that is underway. However I was made a member of the storage team. An area I never worked in, or had even heard much about. Still learning loads. We manage a very large Storage Area network, over 250TB of data, all to be backed up regularly. So loads of Veritas, EMC software, Fibre switches and so forth. So far I find it much more interesting than programming. I'd prefer not to directly name the company, its one of the big semi-states.

If you are in a role that isnt development generally you get paid more. The cost of training someone into a development role is quite high.

I wanted a development role originally when I joined the place I work now. They gave me a infrastructure / PM based role. It's much more fun, I deal with teams of developers and to be honest it looks quite dull. I like sitting down with them and looking at problems they have etc. but all they really do is sit at their desks and never see too far beyond the development area.

secret_squirrel

damnyanks wrote:

It's for people with Undergrad. Generally companies paying 40k sterling don't advertise the fact they pay such a good salary. This helps weed out the applicants I'd imagine as people dont apply based on the salary alone.

I find that very hard to believe. 40K Junior graduate jobs are seriously rare beasts.

A quick look on jobserve shows 1 job out of 40 odd at that kind of money. Any thats for someone with 3 years experience. As previously mentioned the only other that comes close is a PHd grad.

Far more realistic money for a IT graduate in london is 28-33 Sterling.

Care to post a link?

PDelux

I started on 30k as a grad engineer in Dublin couple of years ago.
Depends on the company but can expect usually 3-4% increase every year after that.
Also bonuses and stock options, pension scheme, healthcare.

pilson

Does anyone know what the word is on IBM?
I was recently accepted into the extreme blue program (based in mulhuddart) and was wondering what the starting salary is out there(assuming I'm offered a job at the end of the programme.). I do not start out there until the Summer so will not have a chance to ask someone in the company in the meantime...:rolleyes:

damnyanks

secret_squirrel wrote:

I find that very hard to believe. 40K Junior graduate jobs are seriously rare beasts.

A quick look on jobserve shows 1 job out of 40 odd at that kind of money. Any thats for someone with 3 years experience. As previously mentioned the only other that comes close is a PHd grad.

Far more realistic money for a IT graduate in london is 28-33 Sterling.

Care to post a link?

As I stated they don't advertise the actual amount they pay. I think the only company that does that would be Barclays capital (Or whatever their investment wing is called). The likes of accenture pay 32k. Investment banks pay higher.

The perks can also be quite good. At Morgan Stanley you get a strong salary plus something like 3 months training.

These aren't grad job's but rather grad programs. Same thing in my view, perhaps you see it in a different view.

Either way I know what the rates are in a few of these places and they are defenitly above what your posted

cousin_borat

damnyanks wrote:

Either way I know what the rates are in a few of these places and they are defenitly above what your posted

Originally Posted by secret_squirrel
I find that very hard to believe. 40K Junior graduate jobs are seriously rare beasts.

Damnyanks, it looks like you're actually agreeing with secret_squirrel when you say "a few of these places"
The only place I know thats pays graduate salaries of 40K plus (usually quite a bit more) is the US, the reason being that these Graduates have huge debts to pay after college. That is simply not the case in Ireland and less so in England so the rates mentioned here are accurate.

The Corinthian

You’re not in the civil service (at least the majority of you) and no one feels obliged to give you a raise simply because it gives them a warm fuzzy feeling to do so or because you happen to have been in the firm for X amount of time.

The reality is that you seek out and negotiate your own salary. This is especially true in many SME’s, where there’s a lot of leeway for such negotiation, based upon the market, how much business they’re doing and your own skill set. As long as you don’t overtly try to blackmail them or make the fatal assumption that you’re indispensable (even if you are, you’re not) you can increase what you earn substantially. God helps those who help themselves.

As an example, a number of years ago the CTO of the firm I worked for quit. Suddenly, the directors decided they’d have pay reviews for all the senior developers. I was brought out to lunch and told I was being given a 20% raise (I was already on good money for the time). I politely responded that I would “have to think about it” - which visibly threw them. A day later they added another 20% to the raise offer.

My point is that you have to look to more money and negotiate for it if you want it. Otherwise, in the case of most companies there’s no incentive for them to pay you any more.

silverside

from my knowledge there is kind of a celing at ~ 50k for developers that, to get more than that, you have to either move into management, or be very specialized/good at your job beyond just having say 5 yrs experience. UK salaries are a bit higher but then living expenses etc are too.

dunno what graduate salaries are at now but 25k sounds about right if you have a degree

rsynnott

I seem to remember seeing some truly outrageous figure for Prolog programmers...

irishguy

rsynnott wrote:

I seem to remember seeing some truly outrageous figure for Prolog programmers...

But Prolog is mostly an academic language with a very simple syntax any programmer could pick it up, don’t see why you would pay more for it. Don’t even see why you would use it to be honest

JimmySmith

Ask anyone who is on a high salary and they will tell you that they got the biggest jumps when they moved company.
Most companies will not give high raises to current employees because they dont have to attract them to the company anymore.
How many times have you seen a person on similar experince as yourself come in on a higher salary?
They have to offer them more to break the bonds they have with their current company. Bottom line is you get more when you move than when you stay. Your employer will be counting on your inertia when it comes to salary review time.

rsynnott

irishguy wrote:

But Prolog is mostly an academic language with a very simple syntax any programmer could pick it up, don’t see why you would pay more for it. Don’t even see why you would use it to be honest

A lot of people seem to find it very difficult to write in. I'm not sure why; I quite like it myself. It tends to be used in expert systems.

secret_squirrel

JimmySmith wrote:

They have to offer them more to break the bonds they have with their current company. Bottom line is you get more when you move than when you stay. Your employer will be counting on your inertia when it comes to salary review time.

The key to that is that even if you are happy where you are it doesnt hurt to look around - especially around salary review time. Makes a useful negotiation tactic.

OMcGovern

JimmySmith wrote:

Ask anyone who is on a high salary and they will tell you that they got the biggest jumps when they moved company.
Most companies will not give high raises to current employees because they dont have to attract them to the company anymore.
How many times have you seen a person on similar experince as yourself come in on a higher salary?
They have to offer them more to break the bonds they have with their current company. Bottom line is you get more when you move than when you stay. Your employer will be counting on your inertia when it comes to salary review time.

Wise words. In my earlier years ( 10 years in the I.T. business ), I had 6 jobs in 6 years. You could add at least 4k per jump ( in the good old days before the dot com bubble burst ). Most employers will, by default, only offer 3% wage increases "in line with inflation". The truth is that they have to pay recruitment agencies at least 4k to hire your replacement...... and that doesn't include all the "product knowledge" you have.

You can't overplay that card, each and every year.
You really need to have shined in your work, and made an impression.
The main thing I've learnt.... if you're not happy, money means nothing.
You'll get used to your new salary fairly soon and it's easily spent.

If you've got the skills and experience, then ask for more design work, team leadership etc. If you don't have the design or people skills for the work, then you should realise that you're probably on the right salary for you at this stage in life.

Hope this realism helps a few people,
regards,
Owen

cousin_borat

Agreed. In ordere to move to the higher salaries a developer need to move into project management or become a functional expert in a particular vertical

dingding

secret_squirrel wrote:

The key to that is that even if you are happy where you are it doesnt hurt to look around - especially around salary review time. Makes a useful negotiation tactic.

Agreed

secret_squirrel

cousin_borat wrote:

Agreed. In ordere to move to the higher salaries a developer need to move into project management or become a functional expert in a particular vertical

Broadly true but not always. There's always a small amount of room for Technical Architecture and Lead Designer type roles.

One of the best companies I worked for had this idea down to such a good degree that there were twin career tracks - 1 Departmental/Project Management and the second Architechture and Senior Technical lead roles. This almost completely separated really Technical staff from their more People oriented peers.

The third option for a real techie is the expert contractor role. Develope a reputation as one of them and you can do very well indeed.

damnyanks

Place I work has a architecture department. It's very specialised, they generally develop large systems for messaging etc.
Would imagine its quite well paid