Why vote Sinn Fein?

ivan087

I've been reading some other posts and I'm really shocked by the strong support Sinn Fein has. How can any right minded southern Irish person vote for a party that has links with gangsters, get so much support. It seems the main reason is that they 'give a sh!t'. Maybe some local Sinn Fein politicans do. But come on! imagine this party in government. they dont believe in the state, their members have supported the murder of gardai, their members have murdered Irish people (nearly as many catholics as prodestants). and if its about the old reunification question, well it aint gonna happen. in nearly every poll taken on the issue in the north, only about 50% of catholics would support this. so an overall vote, in the north, would come to about 25% in favour of a united ireland. imagine what the vote in the south would be like? more like 5%! Vote No - economy goes on as is (hopefully!), closer ties with the north, peace, etc, etc. Vote yes - economy bust, violance, bombs in dublin, debt and death .its not going to happen!!!

Snickers Man

If you want to see what Sinn Fein will be like in 10-15 years time then have a look at Fianna Fail now.

After all, FF did what SF is trying to do, only they did it seventy years ago.

Remember that when they won the election in 1932, many of the newly elected FF TDs carried guns into the chamber because they feared that the outgoing government would not hand over power to a bunch of recalctitrant republicans who had less than 10 years previously been involved in a campaing of fratricidal murder against the democratic majority who had negotiated a legally binding treaty with Britain.

The fact that the transfer of power was effected peacefully is to the great credit of the new state and helped set the tone for the democratic if socially imperfect country we have today.

FF came to power as a populist nationalist party that was going to right all the wrongs of the pro-Treaty west brits who had merely stepped into the shoes of the British and had done little with the freedom that had been so hard earned. Not for the FFers of the day the easy riches and cushy status quo of the landed gentry who voted for Cumann na nGaedhal.

Hell no. We were all in this together, we would all suffer equally, there would be no bloated plutocrats looking down on the common people of Ireland whose votes had brought Dev to power. From now on it was going to be comely maidens and dancing at the crossroads after a hard day's making the fields bright with industry.

Where did this lead us? Charvet ****ing shirts for the squire, brown envelopes for the foot soldiers of the party, tightened belts and the emigrant boat for many of the rest of us.

But at least it was our own lads and not them feckin Anglo Irish who were coining it. So that was OK then.

It will be the same with the Provos. Rich bastards are to be decried and held up as enemies of the people, unless they're our rich bastards like Phil Flynn who made it to the boards of various banks before getting too evidently close to dodgy people. Or indeed the property developer Mr McFeely who is doing quite well for himself in the building game. Just 0ver 25 years ago he was close to starving himself to death in H-block.

Fianna Fail in waiting, that's all the provos are.

Pal

ivan087 wrote:

I'm really shocked by the strong support Sinn Fein has.

me too.

Time Magazine

Snickers Man, you're talking sh*t.

Anti-Treatities did not sit in the Dáil for five years, the first five years of the State.

Sinn Féin have been at this lark for time eternal. And in a completely different political landscape. FF were formed after a war and foundation of the State, and were warring with the other side of the House. The political spectrum has completely shifted since then, and to suggest anything other is farcical. The two are not comparable.

Sinn Féin are scum. They're not freedom fighters, or a legitimate party in the making. They're scum. If I ever found out that my party had any of the crap going on that the Shinners have, I'd hand in my resignation that day. The Shinners do not deserve respect, they don't give it yet; and for God's sake their recent history doesn't deserve it.

Snickers Man

Angry Banana wrote:

Snickers Man, you're talking sh*t.

No I'm not.

Angry Banana wrote:

Anti-Treatities did not sit in the Dáil for five years, the first five years of the State.

This contradicts the facts I stated, how?

It is a matter of record that having won the election in 1932 (ten years after the foundation of the state) several Fianna Fail TDs turned up with guns because they feared, incorrectly as it turned out, that the mandate of the people would not be respected by the outgoing government.

It was.

That was the moment the new state truly came of age.

AngryBanana wrote:

If I ever found out that my party had any of the crap going on that the Shinners have, I'd hand in my resignation that day.

(Assuming you're an FFer) But **** like Haughey threatening a bank to whom he owed millions that he 'could be a very troublesome adversary"; the same man taking a hand at running guns to the nascent provos in 1970; the wholesale corruption of the planning process; illegal tappings of journalists and colleagues' phones; urging the populace at large to 'tighten our belts' while he was living high on the hog on money that wasn't his.......

..that's all right, I suppose?

And all the time claiming to be the party of the common man fighting oppression and remaining true to principal.

Neil Blaney (another man not a stranger to huge wealth) said it in a sentence when they refused to back his hare-brained scheme for invading Northern Ireland: 'I;m not leaving them. They're leaving me'

FF are filth. IMHO.

meditraitor

Snickers Man wrote:

FF are filth. IMHO.

Agreed


so are Sinn Fein

They are both alike, most likely bed fellows after the next election.

ivan087

No FF arent filth, they are a lot of things and ive never felt the urge to vote from them. But the difference is that FF's current generation are not members of any illegal army, they support the real army, they support this state, they support our gardai, they urge catholics in the north to report crimes to the PSNI, they want a united Ireland in a democratic way, they do not bomb or kill people to achieve their aims. thats the difference. and as much as i dislike FF+PDs they, as parties, are not scum.

ateam

ivan087 wrote:

I've been reading some other posts and I'm really shocked by the strong support Sinn Fein has. How can any right minded southern Irish person vote for a party that has links with gangsters, get so much support. It seems the main reason is that they 'give a sh!t'. Maybe some local Sinn Fein politicans do. But come on! imagine this party in government. they dont believe in the state, their members have supported the murder of gardai, their members have murdered Irish people (nearly as many catholics as prodestants). and if its about the old reunification question, well it aint gonna happen. in nearly every poll taken on the issue in the north, only about 50% of catholics would support this. so an overall vote, in the north, would come to about 25% in favour of a united ireland. imagine what the vote in the south would be like? more like 5%! Vote No - economy goes on as is (hopefully!), closer ties with the north, peace, etc, etc. Vote yes - economy bust, violance, bombs in dublin, debt and death .its not going to happen!!!

Although i am FF supporter, i would have to say that there is a sense of disillusionment surrounding the current government at the moment. Some in Ireland feel left out. Sinn Fein are definitely trying to capitalise on this.

Airblazer

ivan087 wrote:

No FF arent filth, they are a lot of things and ive never felt the urge to vote from them. But the difference is that FF's current generation are not members of any illegal army, they support the real army, they support this state, they support our gardai, they urge catholics in the north to report crimes to the PSNI, they want a united Ireland in a democratic way, they do not bomb or kill people to achieve their aims. thats the difference. and as much as i dislike FF+PDs they, as parties, are not scum.

very well said..

Diorraing

ivan087 wrote:

No FF arent filth, they are a lot of things and ive never felt the urge to vote from them. But the difference is that FF's current generation are not members of any illegal army, they support the real army, they support this state, they support our gardai, they urge catholics in the north to report crimes to the PSNI, they want a united Ireland in a democratic way, they do not bomb or kill people to achieve their aims.

FF did bomb and kill people to achieve their aims during the civil war. They were accepted into mainstream politics 10 years later (and yes it was the generation that were members of an illegal army). As I've said many times before on Boards it is Sinn Féin's 30% Corporation Tax policy that is insane. The IRA are gone (according to the IMC only a few thugs are active and not on the orders of the IRA). It is also apparent that SF want a "united Ireland in a democratic" otherwise they wouldn't have given away their guns.
It is so easy to attack SF on their economic policies, why do you persist on using this washed-up, pointless argument that "Sinn Fein are all thugs"? They are clearly exteremly clever political masterminds that thrive on stupid arguments like yours!

Snickers Man

ivan087 wrote:

FF's current generation are not members of any illegal army, they support the real army, they support this state, they support our gardai, they urge catholics in the north to report crimes to the PSNI, they want a united Ireland in a democratic way, they do not bomb or kill people to achieve their aims. .

All this is true. But they still like to retain the faint vestigial whiff of the populist revolutionary movement, out to help the common man throw off the yoke of outside oppression.

It's great for the street cred. But a consequence is a tendency to see the law as something alien, an outside force that can be undermined and ignored if it is in one's own interests to do so. That's called corruption and FF are innately bound up in that. They still haven't shaken it off after 70 years.

This is the same journey that SF is making now, 70 + years after FF started it. They are going to have to reconcile millionaires like McFeeley and Flynn, bourgeois lecturers in business strategy like Mary Lou Big Mac along with the ascetic died-in-the-wool non materialists who will demand rigid ideological purity at all costs. "Coz that's what we went on hunger strike for"

SF are trying very hard to be the new Fianna Fail. Populist with just a little bit of macho danger. And they will still have some very familiar skeletons rattling around in their closet.

ateam

Diorraing wrote:

FF did bomb and kill people to achieve their aims during the civil war. They were accepted into mainstream politics 10 years later (and yes it was the generation that were members of an illegal army). As I've said many times before on Boards it is Sinn Féin's 30% Corporation Tax policy that is insane. The IRA are gone (according to the IMC only a few thugs are active and not on the orders of the IRA). It is also apparent that SF want a "united Ireland in a democratic" otherwise they wouldn't have given away their guns.
It is so easy to attack SF on their economic policies, why do you persist on using this washed-up, pointless argument that "Sinn Fein are all thugs"? They are clearly exteremly clever political masterminds that thrive on stupid arguments like yours!

The 1920s and 30s were a different era and in a completely different context to present day Ireland.

What has Sinn Fein got to offer that other Socialist parties don't have??

Demetrius

If Sinn Fein ever gets into power as they are now, this country will go down the tubes.

:v: Northen Ireland is propped up by the rest of the UK and if the republic was saddled with it, itll drag us down economically like the German reunification(not that Im drawing comparisons between a divided Germany and a "divided" Ireland. NI is British because the majority there consider themselves British)

:v: Sinn Fein as a nationalist party would want Ireland not to be so involved in Europe, when in reality the EU and the oppurtunities it offers has done so much for Ireland.

:v: Id rather have sticky fingered incompetants in power rather than a bunch of gun-runners



:v: I expect and tolerate politicians that talk out of both sides of their mouths, but again not those with links to a criminal organisation

Cronus333

ateam wrote:

The 1920s and 30s were a different era and in a completely different context to present day Ireland.

What has Sinn Fein got to offer that other Socialist parties don't have??

Nationalism. Socialists are not normall patriots but SF are. And no, I am not a socialist or really even a patriot. I would never vote for Sinn Fein.

ivan087

Diorraing wrote:

It is so easy to attack SF on their economic policies, why do you persist on using this washed-up, pointless argument that "Sinn Fein are all thugs"?

yeah their economic policies are comical, but i'm afraid i cant get past the 'pointless argument that Sinn Fein are all thugs'. to see convicted criminals in the dail is really sad. some day these very same people could be leading this state, a state they dont support. to attack them on their economic policies would be treating them like a real party. im not ready to do that.

LordSutch

ivan087 wrote:

I've been reading some other posts and I'm really shocked by the strong support Sinn Fein has.

me too .......................................
or at least I would be if it were true!

LFCFan

have you ever checked out the Sinn Fein online shop? There are loads of goods supporting the IRA while at the same time Sinn Fein try to distance themselves from the IRA. How anyone can vote for a party that openly sells, 'IRA - Undefeated Army' T-Shirts and 'Keep Brits Out - Keep Eire Tidy' T-Shirts, is either a) deluding themselves that Sinn Fein are a trustworthy party or b) fully support terrorism.

Time Magazine

Snickers Man wrote:

(Assuming you're an FFer)

No I'm not. I'm actually a Blueshirt. But I still have the common sense to see FF > SF.

Ivan087 put it quite well.

I have very few problems with Bertie as a man. I don't agree with the way he's running the country, but by and large he's doing a decent enough job (relative to murdering people) - and he's not scum. Ditto Brian Cowan. Ditto Mary McAleese. Ditto Trevor Sergeant. Ditto Pat Rabbitte. Ditto everyone else on the political spectrum except one group. The only group who, within the last twelve months, refused to say killing Irish people was wrong. If FG are still getting slack about the Blueshirts, SF/IRA/HIV/AIDS deserve a much, much longer time in the sin-bin.

Diorrang wrote:

FF did bomb and kill people to achieve their aims during the civil war. They were accepted into mainstream politics 10 years later (and yes it was the generation that were members of an illegal army). As I've said many times before on Boards it is Sinn Féin's 30% Corporation Tax policy that is insane. The IRA are gone (according to the IMC only a few thugs are active and not on the orders of the IRA). It is also apparent that SF want a "united Ireland in a democratic" otherwise they wouldn't have given away their guns.
It is so easy to attack SF on their economic policies, why do you persist on using this washed-up, pointless argument that "Sinn Fein are all thugs"? They are clearly exteremly clever political masterminds that thrive on stupid arguments like yours!

The Civil War was 80 years ago. Even I accept FF are a completely different party. I do not accept that SF/IRA/HIV/AIDS are a completely different party from this time last year when Mitchell McLoughlin refused to say murder was wrong, when the IRA are still knee-capping people in Dublin, when they're still running prostitution rackets, when SF/IRA/HIV/AIDS members are regularly found with subversive items/materials etc., when SF/IRA/HIV/AIDS members intimidate other parties in certain areas (anecdote of friend told FG were "not welcome to canvass here"), when they post round emails encouraging hate-mailing Margaret Thatcher signing off with "We'll get the bitch yet" to members and when they refuse to fully accept the democratic mandate of the people by saying **** like "the Dublin government". It's the Irish fu*king government you bunch of wankstains. These are why I say SF are thugs, let alone their ridiculous policies on economics/agriculture/labour markets/foreign affairs/etc. ad infinitum aka the reasons I'd never vote for them.

And to dispell the myth that they're smart, no they're not. They're the most inarticulate gimps I've come across in political discourse, defending all of their policies only relative to other wrongs and none per se and showing complete contempt for common logic and empirical research.

RAWR!

</rant>

Sand

Base tribalism and bigotry usually expressed in bought-the-t-shirt-nationalism, some sort of sexual fetish for nationalistic violence, a "stop-the-world-i-want-to-get-off" grasp of economics - I mean you could be here all day theorising on why people vote for terrorists, organised crime and morally deviant monsters whilst railing about relatively minor (in comparison) corruption or incompetence. Why did millions of seemingly normal, ordinary, law abiding Germans vote for Hitler? Some questions will never be properly answered, but basically the sort of people who vote SFIRA are the sort of people who drunkenly chant "SFIRA let the free bird fly" whenever the Fields of Athenry is played. Idiots.

As for FF, they demonstrated their credentials as a legitimate political party when they ruthlessly crushed the old IRA south of the border with internment and executions. As already noted, SFIRA cant even bring themselves to state murder is wrong, let alone move decisively to end subversive gangs. When SFIRA are willing and able to do so, well then there will be solid grounds for re-evaluation. They failed the McCartney case.

Diorraing

Angry Banana wrote:

No I'm not. I'm actually a Blueshirt. But I still have the common sense to see FF > SF.

Ivan087 put it quite well.

I have very few problems with Bertie as a man. I don't agree with the way he's running the country, but by and large he's doing a decent enough job (relative to murdering people) - and he's not scum. Ditto Brian Cowan. Ditto Mary McAleese. Ditto Trevor Sergeant. Ditto Pat Rabbitte. Ditto everyone else on the political spectrum except one group. The only group who, within the last twelve months, refused to say killing Irish people was wrong. If FG are still getting slack about the Blueshirts, SF/IRA/HIV/AIDS deserve a much, much longer time in the sin-bin.

The Civil War was 80 years ago. Even I accept FF are a completely different party. I do not accept that SF/IRA/HIV/AIDS are a completely different party from this time last year when Mitchell McLoughlin refused to say murder was wrong, when the IRA are still knee-capping people in Dublin, when they're still running prostitution rackets, when SF/IRA/HIV/AIDS members are regularly found with subversive items/materials etc., when SF/IRA/HIV/AIDS members intimidate other parties in certain areas (anecdote of friend told FG were "not welcome to canvass here"), when they post round emails encouraging hate-mailing Margaret Thatcher signing off with "We'll get the bitch yet" to members and when they refuse to fully accept the democratic mandate of the people by saying **** like "the Dublin government". It's the Irish fu*king government you bunch of wankstains. These are why I say SF are thugs, let alone their ridiculous policies on economics/agriculture/labour markets/foreign affairs/etc. ad infinitum aka the reasons I'd never vote for them.

And to dispell the myth that they're smart, no they're not. They're the most inarticulate gimps I've come across in political discourse, defending all of their policies only relative to other wrongs and none per se and showing complete contempt for common logic and empirical research.

Gerry Adams is the most intelligent politician on this island whether you like it or not. Sinn Fein are an electoral ultra-machine and you don't get that with "inarticulate gimps". In fact that just highlights my point that people who criticise Sinn Fein go about it in the wrong way.

Yes the civil war was 80 years ago. So what? From the way you speak one would think that the IRA are directly ordering prostitution and drug-dealing. Please provide a link to prove so, if not rephrase your allegation like this:
"former members of the IRA are involved in drugs etc. and are acting outside the authorisation of the IRA".
I was really impressed though when you said:

Angry Banana wrote:

when they refuse to fully accept the democratic mandate of the people by saying **** like "the Dublin government". It's the Irish fu*king government you bunch of wankstains.

In spite of this mind-blowing political analysis, I couldn't help asking myself: how does "dublin government" constitute non-recognition of the southern state?
Agreed the whole IRA glorification t-shirts are a bit much, but you have to understand that people who lived in the north (particularly at the start of the troubles) viewed the IRA as their defenders and while you may not agree with that you have to respect other peoples views (especially as you live in Kildare and probably have no conception of what it was like for them).
But I will accept that the T-shirts are offensive and should be done away with.

LordSutch

Diorraing wrote:

Gerry Adams is the most intelligent politician on this island whether you like it or not. Sinn Fein are an electoral ultra-machine and you don't get that with "inarticulate gimps".

Dear oh dear Diorraing - sounds like you have been well and truly indoctrinated into the inner circle of the brotherhood.

You remind me of Ex SS men that were interviewed in the decades after the second World War (or the Emergency as some call it) those poor old Nazi's were also misguided & brainwashed and still praised Adolf and all his wonderful actions - and you sound just like them!

Diorraing

ArthurF wrote:

Dear oh dear Diorraing - sounds like you have been well and truly indoctrinated into the inner circle of the brotherhood.

You remind me of Ex SS men that were interviewed in the decades after the second World War (or the Emergency as some call it) those poor old Nazi's were also misguided & brainwashed and still praised Adolf and all his wonderful actions - and you sound just like them!

Usually when you make a post it has an actual meaning not just an insult. To compare me to ex-Nazis is not only deeply hurtful but shows complete ignorance on your behalf. That post adds absolutely nothing to our current debate. Because I defended SF on one issue (i.e they shouldn't be called thugs) I am now being accused of ex-SS like behaviour. Shows insecurity on your behalf

LordSutch

I did not call you a Nazi Dorraing - but the point I was making was that (like ex SS volunteers admired Hitler) you sound like you greatly admire Mr Adams and the Republican machine, and lets face it Dorraing, the Republican movement in all its many guises (IRA/INLA/PIRA) have been responsible for much death & destruction - am I wrong?

Pal

Demetrius wrote:

If Sinn Fein ever gets into power as they are now, this country will go down the tubes.

I agree. It must never happen.

Pal

Diorraing wrote:

I defended SF on one issue (i.e they shouldn't be called thugs)

how can you say that ?

Zebra3

ivan087 wrote:

How can any right minded southern Irish person vote for a party that has links with gangsters, get so much support.

A lot of people would say the same thing about the more so-called mainstream parties.

Huge corruption which has been prevelant throughout them, their support for a mass murder like George Bush, a Taoiseach who signed blank cheques for his boss, handing themselves huge, unjustified payrises at our expense and a Minister for "Justice" who seems to have no regard for the workings of the law and is proud to leak information on political opponents to select members of the media.

Time Magazine

Zebra3 wrote:

A lot of people would say the same thing about the more so-called mainstream parties.

They're not "so-called" mainstream. Their voter turnout proves their mainstream.

Huge corruption which has been prevelant throughout them

That's rich from someone supporting SF!

their support for a mass murder like George Bush

I don't George Bush can really be classified as a mass-murderer (or mass murder for that matter) without boards being shut down

a Taoiseach who signed blank cheques for his boss

Can you name any blank cheques the Taoiseach has signed, except perhaps for those to Sinn Féin? Get off it. If SF were to go into power with anyone it would be FF. Ye better watch it or we might call up these quotes ye be throwing about come election time and you're looking for a partner.

handing themselves huge, unjustified payrises at our expense

Could you please back up the unjustified element please? How could a job that involves media scrutiny, the worst job-security in Ireland and a constant barrage of abuse while all you're doing is running the country not deserve €80,000? It's maybe €2 per citizen to pay for them. Are they not worth that?

and a Minister for "Justice" who seems to have no regard for the workings of the law

I don't Michael McDowell one bit. But seriously, the only party who can say things that I don't agree with about him are the Shinners.

and is proud to leak information on political opponents to select members of the media.

Any problem with any non-Michael McDowell people?

ArthurF

ArthurF wrote:

Dear oh dear Diorraing - sounds like you have been well and truly indoctrinated into the inner circle of the brotherhood.

You remind me of Ex SS men that were interviewed in the decades after the second World War (or the Emergency as some call it) those poor old Nazi's were also misguided & brainwashed and still praised Adolf and all his wonderful actions - and you sound just like them!

A clear and straightfoward breach of one of the most important rules in the politics board charter has been committed here.
You attacked the poster instead of just gunning for the post.
You've been around long enough to know better and ergo you are getting a one week ban for this infraction.

ISAW

Diorraing wrote:

FF did bomb and kill people to achieve their aims during the civil war.

No they did NOT!

FF didnt exist during the civil war! They were formed in 1928 (i think) when Dev took the constitutional Republicans and left SF. SF remained in the "dont recognise the state" mould at least until 1985.

They were accepted into mainstream politics 10 years later (and yes it was the generation that were members of an illegal army).

No it wasnt! FF had SPLIT from SF and the IRA in 1928 and (i think) got an overall majority ( possibly with the help of Lab in 1932.

As I've said many times before on Boards it is Sinn Féin's 30% Corporation Tax policy that is insane. The IRA are gone (according to the IMC only a few thugs are active and not on the orders of the IRA).

SF seem to have no economic policies and also have the lefty Marxist element which FF do not have. I believe SF also disassociated with the IMC report but that depends to which IMC you refer.

It is also apparent that SF want a "united Ireland in a democratic" otherwise they wouldn't have given away their guns.

So you believe SF and the IRA are one and the same? Everyone else wants a democratic united Ireland so why favour SF over any other party?

It is so easy to attack SF on their economic policies,

No it isnt! Because it is so difficult to ascertain what those policeis are!

why do you persist on using this washed-up, pointless argument that "Sinn Fein are all thugs"? They are clearly exteremly clever political masterminds that thrive on stupid arguments like yours!

I think he means to say "SF are linked to the IRA many of which are thugs" It isn't a washed up argument as families in Belfast and Dublin can attest to. The code of silence and threats that eminat4ed from some recent activities is ample evidence of this.

ISAW

Diorraing wrote:

Gerry Adams is the most intelligent politician on this island whether you like it or not.

a completly bald assertion! Where is your evidence to back this up? there are plenty of much more qualified politiicians but as to intelligent how do you rate that? Does avoiding beinfg convicted of IRA membership count as being intelligent?

Sinn Fein are an electoral ultra-machine and you don't get that with "inarticulate gimps". In fact that just highlights my point that people who criticise Sinn Fein go about it in the wrong way.

In some areas they have a machine that rivals the best in the constituency. In others they get 3 per cent of the vote. Hardly "ultra". saying "I am not approved to state my opinion" or whatever your one Ferris said on the Late Late is hardly an ultra articulate reply is it?

Yes the civil war was 80 years ago. So what?

I think he already explained so what. You can not anachronistically judge based on those times. Ireland has changed. Opinion on homosexuality, women divorce other races (all things about which SF sometimes rant ) have changed.

From the way you speak one would think that the IRA are directly ordering prostitution and drug-dealing. Please provide a link to prove so, if not rephrase your allegation like this:
"former members of the IRA are involved in drugs etc. and are acting outside the authorisation of the IRA".

But current members of the IRA killed someone in Belfast and got all the locals to shut up and only after months and months of sustained pressure did SF begin to distance themselves from them.

In spite of this mind-blowing political analysis, I couldn't help asking myself: how does "dublin government" constitute non-recognition of the southern state?

SF agreed to changing Articles 2 and 3 and canvessed for people to do it. This removed the claim on northern Ireland and that a 32 county republic actually exists but the Dublin government just presently cant enforce the claim. SF have also failed to recognise Leinster House until they won seats in it. If the IRA recognise the Constitution then they MUST disband and not take direction from an Army Council but from the Oireachtas since the Constitution recognised only one Parliament and one Army.

Agreed the whole IRA glorification t-shirts are a bit much, but you have to understand that people who lived in the north (particularly at the start of the troubles) viewed the IRA as their defenders and while you may not agree with that you have to respect other peoples views (especially as you live in Kildare and probably have no conception of what it was like for them).
But I will accept that the T-shirts are offensive and should be done away with.

If SF condemn T-Shirts with racist slogans do they have to understand that people in the areas the wearers came from may well be racist thugs but the locals see them as protectors and defenders of their area?

biko

Oh no, not this again

ivan087

well to wrap it up, before this degrades into a slagging match, i think there are three reasons why Sinn Fein gets the vote:

1) history - people who strongly believe in a united ireland and think that SF are the only party to do this.
2) protest vote - because people believe that none of the main parties offer any real polocy alternatives to the current government
3) good ground work by local councilors and tds

policies, such as economic policies (or the lack of) seem not to matter much to SF supporters - it really does seem to come down to these 3 points.

Diorraing

ISAW wrote:

a completly bald assertion! Where is your evidence to back this up? there are plenty of much more qualified politiicians but as to intelligent how do you rate that? Does avoiding beinfg convicted of IRA membership count as being intelligent?

OK, It is an assertion to say he is the most intelligent politician but he seems to be the most intelligent leader of a party. In a debate he will never come out worse than he went in. He single-handedly managed to turn the IRA from the path of war to one of peace. Sinn Fein are rapidly growing both north and south of the border and if current trends continue they will be in Gov in bout 10/15 years.

I think he already explained so what. You can not anachronistically judge based on those times. Ireland has changed. Opinion on homosexuality, women divorce other races (all things about which SF sometimes rant ) have changed.

FF went into government 10 years after fighting as illegitimate a war as the IRA. And yes FF did fight the civil war although they weren't FF at the time it was still the same people. Their sins were forgiven within 10 years. It shows double standards (particularly on FF's behalf) to call SF unfit for government on their IRA connections

But current members of the IRA killed someone in Belfast and got all the locals to shut up and only after months and months of sustained pressure did SF begin to distance themselves from them.

Not on the orders of the IRA. Null point. Its like saying: "Gardaí were corrupt in Donegal, therefore the whole of the Gardaí are corrupt". No logical pattern

If the IRA recognise the Constitution then they MUST disband and not take direction from an Army Council but from the Oireachtas since the Constitution recognised only one Parliament and one Army.

IRA remains in place as a defensive unit in case the PSNI/British Army/Loyalists decide to attack catholic houses again. This may not be likely but fear and suspicion on the nationalist side is real and must be respected, They do not as yet have full confidence in a police force that often burnt them out of their houses and colluded with loyalists. There has been vast improvements and i have no doubt that it will acceptable within 2/3 years when Patten is fully implemented. The existence of the IRA for defensive purposes does not undermine the Oireachtas. They may think they are the countries army or whatever - thats just empty rhetoric.

Sand

He single-handedly managed to turn the IRA from the path of war to one of peace.

No, he had a lot of help from British Intelligence. As far back as the early 70s and the first IRA ceasefire they were filtering the IRA leadership in Belfast arresting hardliners and releasing or letting go moderates in favour of the ceasefire. Adams was one of the IRA leaders picked up as a hardliner, but British Intelligence in later years helped him by eliminating enemies and hardliners. In the wake of the recent informer in SFIRA, I read an article that several IRA figures have deep suspicions about Adams complicity in the deaths of several IRA figures who opposed his armalite and ballot box strategy. He mightnt have been complicit, but he cant have failed to notice that bad things tended to happen to his enemies.

So, it was far from single handed that he turned the IRA into what it is today.

Time Magazine

Zebra3 wrote:

A lot of people would say the same thing about the more so-called mainstream parties.

Huge corruption which has been prevelant throughout them, their support for a mass murder like George Bush, a Taoiseach who signed blank cheques for his boss, handing themselves huge, unjustified payrises at our expense and a Minister for "Justice" who seems to have no regard for the workings of the law and is proud to leak information on political opponents to select members of the media.

Now that I've my ranting out of me for the night I've just one more thing to add, and I've said it before:

Sinn Féin always justifiy their position relative to other wrongs.

They rarely, if ever, justify their actions/policies/opinions as entities themselves relative to what is actually right.

And with that I'm off for the night. Happy Valetine's, folks.

Zebra3

Angry Banana wrote:

That's rich from someone supporting SF!

I'm not an SF supporter, but I do notice that you don't deny all the corruption in the likes of FF and FG, you just seem happy to sweep it under the carpet.

Angry Banana wrote:

I don't George Bush can really be classified as a mass-murderer (or mass murder for that matter) without boards being shut down

Why's that? How many deaths has he been responsible for?

Angry Banana wrote:

Can you name any blank cheques the Taoiseach has signed,

Eh, all the ones for Haughey?

Angry Banana wrote:

Could you please back up the unjustified element please? How could a job that involves media scrutiny, the worst job-security in Ireland and a constant barrage of abuse while all you're doing is running the country not deserve €80,000? It's maybe €2 per citizen to pay for them. Are they not worth that?

Considering the lack of time they spend in Dail Eireann, no. Most of them are only there to represent certain interests and not the people. Worst job security? Ffs. :rolleyes:

Angry Banana wrote:

I don't Michael McDowell one bit.

Eh?

Angry Banana wrote:

Any problem with any non-Michael McDowell people?

Where would I start.......

Time Magazine

Zebra3 wrote:

I'm not an SF supporter, but I do notice that you don't deny all the corruption in the likes of FF and FG, you just seem happy to sweep it under the carpet.

I'm not a FFer, but they're got rid of the corruption. And FG are not corrupt. They've had one corrupt politician, who was expelled immediately.

Why's that? How many deaths has he been responsible for?

Whether one is "responsible" for deaths doe not make one a mass-murderer. That's reserved for someone who has actually murdered people. And there we go again, relative evils. I don't agree with the War in Iraq, and it bears no relevance to Sinn Fein.

Eh, all the ones for Haughey?

Name one. He's written no blank cheques to Haughey.

Considering the lack of time they spend in Dail Eireann, no. Most of them are only there to represent certain interests and not the people.

Time not spend in the Dail is spent in the constituency. Yes, they don't spend enough time in the Dail, but they need to spend more than half their time in the constituency in my opinion.

Worst job security? Ffs. :rolleyes:

Name any other professional job where you can be sacked at any time (snap general election) without any compensation, even if you're doing a good job.

Where would I start.......

The Shinners?

ivan087

Angry Banana wrote:

Whether one is "responsible" for deaths doe not make one a mass-murderer. That's reserved for someone who has actually murdered people.

So you have to pull the trigger to be a mass-murderer?!!??! jez poor ol hitler, saddam, etc. might as well free saddam now, he's only 'responsible' for thousands of deaths.

Time Magazine

No, you don't have to pull the trigger.

It's a bit like the problem of transitive logic, I suppose.

I suppose the best way to describe it is the intent. If you intend that your actions will murder people (be it explicit or implicit - pulling the trigger or telling someone to pull the trigger), I suppose you could be called a mass-murderer.

I don't think Bush is a mass-murderer because I believe his intention was to lower the amount of murders, and that might have happened. He failed though. I don't think that qualifies as murder.

If you don't apply that logic, Churchchill et al were mass-murderers.

Mass-murdering does not equal mass-killing, I suppose.

Anyway, way off-topic.

The_Minister

Angry Banana wrote:

No, you don't have to pull the trigger.

It's a bit like the problem of transitive logic, I suppose.

I suppose the best way to describe it is the intent. If you intend that your actions will murder people (be it explicit or implicit - pulling the trigger or telling someone to pull the trigger), I suppose you could be called a mass-murderer.

I don't think Bush is a mass-murderer because I believe his intention was to lower the amount of murders, and that might have happened. He failed though. I don't think that qualifies as murder.

If you don't apply that logic, Churchchill et al were mass-murderers.

Mass-murdering does not equal mass-killing, I suppose.

Anyway, way off-topic.

Was reading a thing about the Mai Lai (is that what its called-you know the vietnam one) massacre. The lieutenant who shot the people was held responsible because he should have disobeyed the order.

Zebra3

Angry Banana wrote:

Anyway, way off-topic.

But it's not off-topic.

People say they won't vote SF cos the IRA have killed people, yet they are happy to vote for FF or FG safe in the knowledge that those parties will assist the US in murdering people in Iraq to get their hands on the oil there.

What's the difference?

ivan087

Angry Banana wrote:

I don't think Bush is a mass-murderer because I believe his intention was to lower the amount of murders, and that might have happened. He failed though. I don't think that qualifies as murder.

i dont want to stray off target either or turn this into an iraqi war debate. but one could call bush a mass murderer in that he invaided iraq, he wasnt defending his nation.

Churchill was a mass murderer. he bombed civilians of german cities for no reason but to inflict civilian deaths. it dosnt matter what someones intention was. bombing military targets or even economic targets is war, targeting civilians is just terrorism or mass-murder. the IRA claim to have been fighting a war against the british. but really most of the killing was against innocent prodestants and innocent catholics. thats murder.

Zebra3

Zebra3 wrote:

But it's not off-topic.

People say they won't vote SF cos the IRA have killed people, yet they are happy to vote for FF or FG safe in the knowledge that those parties will assist the US in murdering people in Iraq to get their hands on the oil there.

What's the difference?

Morally probably little.

However one had a mandate in that his party got a majority before during and after that war in congress.
The IRA never put their campaign to the vote,never had a mandate ie they just did it beacause they knew best apparently :rolleyes:

Justifying wrongs by saying others have wronged in completely unrelated circumstances somewhere else is the poorest form of justification by the way.

The_Minister

ivan087 wrote:

Churchill was a mass murderer. he bombed civilians of german cities for no reason but to inflict civilian deaths.

He had to do that. His bombing of German cities was the only thing that stopped the defeat of the Allies. It was one of the turning points of the war. It forced Hitler to stop bombing the RAF planes on the ground and made him bomb cities thus allowing Britain to fight back for the airspace.

ivan087

Firespinner wrote:

He had to do that. His bombing of German cities was the only thing that stopped the defeat of the Allies. It was one of the turning points of the war.

i honestly dont think that was the turning point of the war. RAF bombers were told to directly bomb the cities. Many RAF pilots stated that there was no need, and that it in fact the allies were just wasting bombs. the only point of bombing the cities was to turn the citizens against the war. this was also the reason for hitler bombing british cities. didnt work.
its mass murder whatever way you look at it. even if it did work - does that justify it. so in a way, even if you dont agree with the IRAs tactics, they were justified in bombing pubs in northern ireland and britain and terrorising people. you cant catagorise mass-murder into good and bad. its just mass-murder.
just on a side note, the falklands war is the only war i can think of where mass murder wasnt carried out. probably wrong, but i cant think of any other war where citizens were not killed directly.

Zebra3

Earthman wrote:

However one had a mandate in that his party got a majority before during and after that war in congress.

Let's get a few things straight here.

It's common knowledge that Bush didn't win the election in 2000. Therefore he didn't have a "mandate" for war, before and during it.

Secondly, his "mandate" which he got in America hardly gives him the right to murder Iraqi civilians. :rolleyes: .

Zebra3

Zebra3 wrote:

Let's get a few things straight here.

It's common knowledge that Bush didn't win the election in 2000. Therefore he didn't have a "mandate" for war, before and during it.

Secondly, his "mandate" which he got in America hardly gives him the right to murder Iraqi civilians. :rolleyes: .

And this is related to sinn féin how exactly?

And you have answered my question regarding you deflecting criticism of the IRA's illegal war how exactly?

Incidently, the Republicans got a majority in both houses of congress in the US, I'd regard that a mandate.
The matter of whether one agree's with their policies is immaterial-At least they were put to a vote... Unlike the IRA

Zebra3

Earthman wrote:

And this is related to sinn féin how exactly?

Simple. People say they are voting for FF and FG cos they are morally pure blah blah blah as opposed to SF which aren't. Given the amount of people that are being murdered by the US regime which parties like FF and FG support, it doesn't give that point much credit, does it?

Earthman wrote:

And you have answered my question regarding you deflecting criticism of the IRA's illegal war how exactly?

What question? Where did you post that?

Earthman wrote:

Incidently, the Republicans got a majority in both houses of congress in the US, I'd regard that a mandate.
The matter of whether one agree's with their policies is immaterial-At least they were put to a vote... Unlike the IRA

So Bush's mates back him to invade a foreign country. Do you think the people of Iraq see that as a mandate? :rolleyes: And as Bush stole the first election, any actions he carried out as President during his first term were illegal.

Freelancer

Zebra3 wrote:

Simple. People say they are voting for FF and FG cos they are morally pure blah blah blah as opposed to SF which aren't. Given the amount of people that are being murdered by the US regime which parties like FF and FG support, it doesn't give that point much credit, does it?

Again really spurious reasoning, many if most people will say that this is foreign policy and that the US has a right to be here. Meanwhile SF members are roaming the country in vans with fake garda uniforms, or sitting in bars not seeing nothing when men are butchered before them.

I'm not a SF or FF or FG supporter, but this looks like more whataboutree

So Bush's mates back him to invade a foreign country.

Lots of members of congress and senate would resent that label.

Do you think the people of Iraq see that as a mandate? :rolleyes: And as Bush stole the first election, any actions he carried out as President during his first term were illegal.

You keep using that word, I do not think it means what you think it means.

Ah the Princess Bride.......

Who declared it illegal? Where? What jursidiction? Are G Men about to kick in the door of the oval office and say "Mr President we believe you've been running this country under false pretenses."

Look I'm not disputing the facts about the case, just your extrapolation of what that means.

Zebra3

Freelancer wrote:

Again really spurious reasoning, many if most people will say that this is foreign policy and that the US has a right to be here. .

It may be foreign policy, but that doesn't hide the fact that the current government has more blood on its' hands than SF, yet people have an issue voting SF cos of its 'pro-war' appearance.

Freelancer wrote:

Who declared it illegal? Where? What jursidiction? Are G Men about to kick in the door of the oval office and say "Mr President we believe you've been running this country under false pretenses."

Look I'm not disputing the facts about the case, just your extrapolation of what that means.

:rolleyes:

People have been refering to the lack of a mandate to illegitamise the IRA's war, but no-one has accepted that America's war, which is supported by people who resent SF's support of the IRA's war, has no mandate from the Iraqi people and by their own reasoning would be as wrong as the IRA's war.

The OP asked the question 'Why vote SF'?

A lot of people in this thread said they never would SF because they're linked with a war without a mandate, yet say they would vote FG, FF or PD even though they are linked to the same thing.

Freelancer

Zebra3 wrote:

It may be foreign policy, but that doesn't hide the fact that the current government has more blood on its' hands than SF, yet people have an issue voting SF cos of its 'pro-war' appearance.

A massive over simplification, and easy generalisation. Members of SF are engaged in criminal activity, a SF MEP last year refused to name the cold blooded murderer a crime.

Now I don't vote for either side however you cannot go and say it's fine for SF to be pro it's armed struggle, because FF and FG supported the war in Iraq. Never heard the one, about two wrongs don't make a right.

:rolleyes:

What a lucid and well thought out argument.

People have been refering to the lack of a mandate to illegitamise the IRA's war, but no-one has accepted that America's war,

For starts what about people who object to both wars? SF claimed to be anti the iraq war but scurred up for a photo op with Bush weeks before the war.

which is supported by people who resent SF's support of the IRA's war, has no mandate from the Iraqi people and by their own reasoning would be as wrong as the IRA's war.

The OP asked the question 'Why vote SF'?

A lot of people in this thread said they never would SF because they're linked with a war without a mandate, yet say they would vote FG, FF or PD even though they are linked to the same thing.

Becuase it's a tenious link. PD members or FG members or FF members aren't actively particapting in the war are they? Are they flying F-16s or storming fallujah? No Now SF members they're not robbing banks, covering up murders, shooting people in the kneecap, blowing people up, now are they? Oh no wait they are.