Ticknock range

P38Man

Heard today that some TD has been dropping leaflets into houses surrounding the new Ticknock range stating that An Bord Pleanala has decided that planning permission will be needed if the range is to go ahead, but that the guys haven't a hope in hell of getting that planning permission due to the objections lodged ! ! ! Can anyone substantiate this?

Riggser

Where's Ticknock?

Rovi

Riggser wrote:

Where's Ticknock?

In the Dublin Mountains.
Search this forum for 'Ticknock' and read this thread particularly-
http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=287568

Follow the links in the thread for the story so far.

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Rew

Well we know Olivia mitchel has been talking ****e about the range from day one. She hasn't a clue on the subject. From what i hear there is sombody living around there has alot of political pull (i.e. money).

it was refered for planning months ago, so not sure what the hold up is. personaly I agree with what the club had said that they aren't building anything so why should they get planning...

Would love to see it go ahead would be a great shooting resource for dublin.

Clash

Rew wrote:

it was refered for planning months ago, so not sure what the hold up is. personaly I agree with what the club had said that they aren't building anything so why should they get planning...

'Referred'?, Who by?, and as the range was in existence before 1963, it does not require planning permission.

Rew

The local county council decided the club required planning (and refered it to An bord Pleanala) so last I heard they were appealing that decsion. The club haven't said a thing about it since November, even to get the info about having to appeal I had to talk to members that I know. The club them selfs could have avoided alot of the orignal media circus by being a bit more forth coming with info yet there still as tight lipped as ever.

I was up there over the weekend and it looks like nothing has been done since i last saw it in September. I thought the owner was going to fence it regardless?

Fingers crossed it will still go ahead...

rrpc

You can check the status of a planning appeal online at pleanala.ie so it doesn't matter if the club are tight-lipped or not. Sometimes a google can get you the link if there is anything published on that website.

rrpc

And lo and behold here it is:

Bord Pleanala Case RL2283 wrote:

An Bord Pleanála

PLANNING AND DEVELOPMENT ACTS 2000 TO 2004

Dun Laoghaire-Rathdown County

An Bord Pleanála Reference Number: 06D.RL.2283

WHEREAS a question has arisen as to whether the use of the lands at Ticknock, County Dublin as a rifle range and the associated refurbishment of existing structures is or is not development or is or is not exempted development:

AND WHEREAS Hugh Durkin care of Roger Wilson of 25 Forest Avenue, Swords, County Dublin requested a declaration on the said question from Dun Laoghaire-Rathdown County Council and the said Council issued a declaration on the 24th day of August, 2005 stating that the said development was not exempted development:

AND WHEREAS the said Hugh Durkin referred the declaration for review to An Bord Pleanála on the 19th day of September, 2005:

AND WHEREAS An Bord Pleanála, in considering this referral, had regard particularly to -

(a) Sections 2, 3, 4 and 39 (4) of the Planning and Development Act, 2000,

(b) Class 33 (c) of Part 1 of the Second Schedule to the Planning and Development Regulations, 2001,

(c) Article 9 of the said Regulations, and

(d) the evidence supplied by the referrer, the observers and by the planning authority in this referral.

AND WHEREAS An Bord Pleanála has concluded that the said of use of the lands as a rifle range constitutes a material change of use, the previous use as a rifle range having been abandoned, and is accordingly development as defined by Section 3 of the Planning and Development Act, 2001:

NOW THEREFORE An Bord Pleanála, in exercise of the powers conferred on it by section 5 (3) (a) of the 2000 Act, hereby decides that the said use of the lands at Ticknock, County Dublin, as a rifle range and the associated refurbishment of existing structures is development and is not exempted development.

So that's the end result. They will now have to apply for planning permission, and seeing as the Council referred them to An Bord Pleanala in the first place phrases involving snowballs and hell come to mind

Rovi

The whole thing is here-
http://www.pleanala.ie/data1/searchdetails.asp?id=694709&caseno=RL2283

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Rew

Yeah looks dead in the water alright. Pittly really coz it would have been a great resource for shooters in the Dublin area.

Traumadoc

Is the shooting on these lands now banned, or is it just the clearing of scrub/development of the facilities that is banned?

Rew

Turing it in to a gun club is subject to planning permission but the land owner could still giver anyone he wants permission to shoot there (I assume?)

rrpc

Rew wrote:

Turing it in to a gun club is subject to planning permission but the land owner could still giver anyone he wants permission to shoot there (I assume?)

Only for the purposes of vermin control or hunting in season.

Rovi

rrpc wrote:

Only for the purposes of vermin control or hunting in season.

What about informal plinking, clay pigeon shooting, paper targets, etc?
I sometimes host a few friends at my place for any and all of these things. What's to stop the owner of Ticknock from doing the same?

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civdef

I'm no planning expert, but IIRC you can use ground for a certain number of days per year without needing planning permission to do so.

rrpc

Rovi wrote:

What about informal plinking, clay pigeon shooting, paper targets, etc?
I sometimes host a few friends at my place for any and all of these things. What's to stop the owner of Ticknock from doing the same?

In theory, nothing. In practice because they have been ruled as having no permission to use the land as a range, any shooting at targets there will be construed as having breached this.

Shooting on your own land with a couple of mates on an informal basis is fine, providing you are doing so safely, and not creating an ongoing nuisance. You could even set up a dedicated range for your own use, and not be in breach of planning, providing that you do not start holding open competitions there.

Dvs

Perhaps anyone who lives in Olivia Mitchells Dublin South constituency,
could show their appreciation at the next election by not voting for her,
and encourage anyone they know to do the same.

Also if she calls to your doorstep, seeking your vote,
tell her in plain english, why she will not get your vote !

Dvs.

Rew

Dvs wrote:

Perhaps anyone who lives in Olivia Mitchells Dublin South constituency,
could show their appreciation at the next election by not voting for her,
and encourage anyone they know to do the same.

Also if she calls to your doorstep, seeking your vote,
tell her in plain english, why she will not get your vote !

Dvs.

Even better start questioning her experience with firearms and her understanding of firearm safety. She claimed to be quite the expert between radio, newspaper and her website...

rrpc

Rew wrote:

Even better start questioning her experience with firearms and her understanding of firearm safety. She claimed to be quite the expert between radio, newspaper and her website...

Even better would be to stop shooting the messenger and instead to learn something from this sorry experience. The Olivia Mitchells of this world will always be there. So instead of blaming them, you should be thinking of what should have been done to prevent this whole unfortunate situation from developing into the FUBAR mess it is now.

If the LRPC had done their homework, they would have realised that they would have come up against the planning laws sooner or later, one would have thought sooner due to the high level of use the surrounding area was getting from the general public. The 'lets keep our heads down and hope nobody notices' approach is arrant nonsense in this day and age, and a far better approach would have been to have applied for planning initially. I'm not suggesting that they would have got the planning, but any application stands no chance of success now.

There are a number of other ranges/clubs in the country adopting the same attitude in the mistaken belief that nobody will notice. In one of these cases, I am aware that everyone has noticed, and are just waiting for their chance to pounce. Adopting this blinkered attitude has little merit and will just get peoples backs up.

sidneyreilly

rrpc wrote:

Even better would be to stop shooting the messenger and instead to learn something from this sorry experience. The Olivia Mitchells of this world will always be there. So instead of blaming them, you should be thinking of what should have been done to prevent this whole unfortunate situation from developing into the FUBAR mess it is now.

Well I for one will not be voting that way in the election because of this and I will be telling any politician who comes to my door exactly why!

civdef

Have there been any moves towards looking at an alternative location?

Olivia Mitchell did state in her press releases that she recognised shooting as a legitimate sport, but didnt like the Ticknock location, so why not now turn the tables on her and get her to help sourcing another location?

Rew

rrpc wrote:

Even better would be to stop shooting the messenger and instead to learn something from this sorry experience. The Olivia Mitchells of this world will always be there. So instead of blaming them, you should be thinking of what should have been done to prevent this whole unfortunate situation from developing into the FUBAR mess it is now.

If the LRPC had done their homework, they would have realised that they would have come up against the planning laws sooner or later, one would have thought sooner due to the high level of use the surrounding area was getting from the general public. The 'lets keep our heads down and hope nobody notices' approach is arrant nonsense in this day and age, and a far better approach would have been to have applied for planning initially. I'm not suggesting that they would have got the planning, but any application stands no chance of success now.

There are a number of other ranges/clubs in the country adopting the same attitude in the mistaken belief that nobody will notice. In one of these cases, I am aware that everyone has noticed, and are just waiting for their chance to pounce. Adopting this blinkered attitude has little merit and will just get peoples backs up.

Well to be fair they checked planning details and were under the impression that they didnt need planning seeing as they weren't building anything and the area is a rifle range. They also talked to locals and informed them of their plans.

Not sure how much truth is in it but I hear there is someone up there with political sway/money that was driving the anti-range movement through Mitchel.

The range was active in the mid 90's as well so its not unused for that long. I think very narrow minds are keeping this from happening. I hope the club haven't given up but its impossible to know seeing as they are as tight lipped as ever. Bit silly as they could garner alot of support from us and other shooters. I dont think all avenues are closed yet anyway. With the CJB putting in provisions for aproving ranges they may be able to prove safety in a planning application. Civdef's idea is also a very good one.

rrpc

The proper way to have dealt with this was to have approached the council in the first place. If you're first in the door, they can be very obliging and helpful. If you start doing things behind their backs and cause an uproar, they are left with very few alternatives. Remember, if you leave a civil servant with no options, they aren't going to make one up for you :rolleyes:

Clare gunner

If the rumour is that somone with money is behind Olivia and is pushing for this range to be closed down.
Ask around the area who is intrested in this land as well for whatever purposes,be it the other"sports"that were discommoded by Ticknock setting up again.Property speculators or somone with an idea of setting somthing else up on the site.You will find that it isnt just an anti gun politican but somone with money and an eye on that piece of ground,using Mitchel as a stalking horse.
If the land was used as a range up to the mid Nineties,find out who was the last users of it[IE,rifle club,or military,gardai,etc]were and the last time it was used by them.Also if it was historically always a rifle range I cant see the council objecting on "change of use" grounds.It was not used as a rifle range for a period of time,but it was not a field that then people wanted to convert to a rifle range.The important thing is to find out how long does a lapse of use apply,before it becomes a reapplication?

Rew

I dont think there are property devlopers in the mix just somone in the area who decided to put a stop to it.

It was an Army range till the mid 90's at which point it was sold as a package of lands. The new owner only had a use for the other lands in the package and didnt do anything with the range till he was approched by the club AFAIK. Owner didnt realise the his land was being used by mountin bikers and scramblers till he was told as well.

Clash

AFAIK, the Army were stopped from using it on the grounds of safety. I imagine the council would have been involved at that stage as would have been Coillte, whose land adjoins the range. There are thousands of people using the woods at weekends, and the range whether rightly or wrongly represents a serious hazard to them. It's not a case of lapse of use or change of use. The Army were stopped from using it, and at that point it was no longer a range, but agricultural land. In any event, when the land was being used by the military, all access was closed off for the duration of the use. This obviously would not be possible for a club to do. Face it folks, that range is a complete dead duck.

Sparks

There are thousands of people using the woods at weekends

...all illegally...

Rew

Clash wrote:

AFAIK, the Army were stopped from using it on the grounds of safety. I imagine the council would have been involved at that stage as would have been Coillte, whose land adjoins the range. There are thousands of people using the woods at weekends, and the range whether rightly or wrongly represents a serious hazard to them. It's not a case of lapse of use or change of use. The Army were stopped from using it, and at that point it was no longer a range, but agricultural land. In any event, when the land was being used by the military, all access was closed off for the duration of the use. This obviously would not be possible for a club to do. Face it folks, that range is a complete dead duck.

It was sold by the army when they were selling off alot of there land, the range was surplus to requirements and Killpedder down the road is argueably a better range so why keep two?

Plenty of military ranges are in areas frequented by the public, Killbride is popular with hill walkers, scramblers and mountin bikers. As far as I can tell the Army selling on safety grounds is a rumour going back to when this subject came up last September. If you google for Ticknock there is referance to its sale in government/Army.

Clare gunner

We had a simmilar situation here with a range called Knocklisheen outside Limerick in Clare.It was an army camp from the 40s but the range was used intermittedly by the army,the then FCA and the Gardai SB.Trouble was it overlooked a local MEPs land who was breeding race horses.Needless to say the firing was spooking his delicately minded horses,and so he worked on getting it closed down.To be honest the Army,and Co were abusing it as well abit.Like ripping off full clips in one go or detonating hand grenades or flash bangs.So before Knocklisheen was sold off the Dept of defence spent appx a million punts building a 15 foot wall to prevent bullets travelling and for noise reduction.Neither worked very well.But in the end Knocklisheen was closed down and sold to whomever who built a refugee centre on it.
Long and the short of it was.The range there was dangerous as it was a very low backstop and also the bullets could travel over open country,back in the 40s and 50s,but it is becoming built up.But what I can see of Ticknock is that it is built into a side of a mountain?Also if the army was using it,isnt it unlikely that they would have used it on a weekend when there would be more civvies knocking around?Surely it cant be too difficult to errect some good chain link and signs warning of the danger of tresspassing on the range when a red flag is flying?
Whoever is putting a spanner in the works,has got to have an intrest in the area,maybe not necessarily in the property either,has money and is close to Olivia Mitchel.In other words somone with alot of clout in that area.Thought that ticknock had invited her down to the range and got some publicity going on the matter as well??

Sparks

Clare gunner wrote:

Surely it cant be too difficult to errect some good chain link and signs warning of the danger of tresspassing on the range when a red flag is flying?

If signs like this don't have any bearing on the case CG, why would safety warnings?

Rew

Army use their ranges 7 days a week. Ticknock is differant to alot of ranges because the firing points are all higher then the targets so the shooter is always aiming down into the buts. It is built in to the mountin side and the land behind the backstop is thick forrest and slopes up steeply. The back stop is about 20 feet and the club planned to place a row of sand filled barrels on to of it as well. It was going to be fenced off and signs put up waring of the danger. As well as that red flags would be flying when shooting was taking place.

rrpc

Sparks wrote:

...all illegally...

Absolutely not. Coillte encourage people to walk in their woods, and at present are planning to expand the car park at that site. Every wood in the country owned by Coillte is open to the public. The one behind me is used regularly by horse riders, walkers and joggers. It is also rented for deer culling.

rrpc

Rew wrote:

Plenty of military ranges are in areas frequented by the public, Killbride is popular with hill walkers, scramblers and mountin bikers. As far as I can tell the Army selling on safety grounds is a rumour going back to when this subject came up last September. If you google for Ticknock there is referance to its sale in government/Army.

And if you read An Bord Pleanala's inspectors report, you will note that when the Army used the range, they closed down all access to the woods for the duration. They do the same with Kilbride and other ranges. Walkers will not get within an asses roar of the place while the Army are using it unless they manage to circomvent the roadblocks, in which case I'd imagine they're in a lot of danger.

The range pointing downhill, I would have thought would have made it more unsafe than a level range. Especially as the land rises up again beyond the butts.

Rew

rrpc wrote:

n. They do the same with Kilbride and other ranges. Walkers will not get within an asses roar of the place while the Army are using it unless they manage to circomvent the roadblocks, in which case I'd imagine they're in a lot of danger.

The range pointing downhill, I would have thought would have made it more unsafe than a level range. Especially as the land rises up again beyond the butts.

You obvioulsy never been on a military range then, access isn't closed down at all.

Not sure why you think shooting down hill would be unsafe, if your shooting down hill you have to aim way up to shoot over the butts.

rrpc

Rew wrote:

You obvioulsy never been on a military range then, access isn't closed down at all.

I've been around a few, while they are being used, and roads were blocked except for local access to houses etc. When I was in the Free Clothes Association, the Regulars would accompany us when on shooting details, and would stay on the roads outside the range.

Not sure why you think shooting down hill would be unsafe, if your shooting down hill you have to aim way up to shoot over the butts.

If the firing point is at the same angle as the range, you can shoot over the butts just as easily as on a flat range, and I've seen enough of that happening to know it happens. If the firing point is level, you are much more inclined to shoot high. I am talking about accidental discharges here, and although some will hit the ground, far too many for comfort go above the butts.

Sparks

rrpc wrote:

Absolutely not. Coillte encourage people to walk in their woods

To walk, yes. To mountain bike, no; hence the signs they've posted in that area (see the above attached image). And since it was the mountain bikers who brought the original complaints and pushed them, that's whom I think of when I think of those that use that area. You're right though, in that those walking around there are not breaking the law. Thing is, they weren't complaining either

It doesn't change the legality of the range with regard to planning permission, of course; it just points out that people were acting rather unfairly here. But, well, welcome to Ireland...

rrpc

Sparks wrote:

To walk, yes. To mountain bike, no; hence the signs they've posted in that area (see the above attached image). And since it was the mountain bikers who brought the original complaints and pushed them, that's whom I think of when I think of those that use that area. You're right though, in that those walking around there are not breaking the law. Thing is, they weren't complaining either

Well the main complaint that was made in the inspectors report, was from a local resident who had been living there for over thirty years. If they were mountain bikers, fair play to them at their age

Sparks

The complaint in the inspectors report was not the original complain by several weeks rrpc...

rrpc

Sparks wrote:

The complaint in the inspectors report was not the original complain by several weeks rrpc...

It may have been, remember that only observations that are made at Council level can be heard at Bord Pleanala level. Outside of An Taisce and statutory named bodies that is. This was not an ordinary planning type appeal, but a referral from a local authority. In such cases, I believe that the referral to An Bord Plaenala would have included all representations received by the council.

It's not easy to look this stuff up, as it does not follow the normal planning rules, as well as which, Dun Laoghaire-Rathdown do not have an online planning search facility, just a weekly list system. In any event, reports of unauthorised developments are not available to the general public for obvious reasons.

Sparks

remember that only observations that are made at Council level can be heard at Bord Pleanala level.

Indeed, and the original complaints went directly to local papers instead of through the official channels. At which point it became an electioneering point and the whole thing went to pot.

Rew

rrpc wrote:

I've been around a few, while they are being used, and roads were blocked except for local access to houses etc. When I was in the Free Clothes Association, the Regulars would accompany us when on shooting details, and would stay on the roads outside the range.

Iv been on alot more then a few and thats not the case. There will be a presence (1 maybe 2 soldiers) at the gate suggesting that people dont enter the area and the same if there was a another gate. No road blocks, cordons, closeing the entire area etc.

Alot of what the couple living in the area for 30 years said is anecdotal. Other such evidence includes people who used to go watch the Army shooting from the high ground that over looks the range to one side. So the whole forrest was not closed. The military can only restrict access to their lands not Coilte land.

If the firing point is at the same angle as the range, you can shoot over the butts just as easily as on a flat range, and I've seen enough of that happening to know it happens. If the firing point is level, you are much more inclined to shoot high. I am talking about accidental discharges here, and although some will hit the ground, far too many for comfort go above the butts.

Accidental discharges can be in any direction. So it makes no differance what angle the range is at. A range where the targets are lower then the shooter means that they are aiming down making it more dificult to shoot over the buts while shooting at the targets.

skellig

Its been a while but I felt I had to intervene. How dare you all discuss and advertise Ticknock Range , associates business on Boards . Talk about giving the Antis a helping hand with that type of information .
As for you REW stating that it is typical of the above being tight lipped well "duh "to you ,you big gobeen .
Would you like your business or house planning etc made available on the boards to as you know (God knows who) It is their own private business ---think about it if you can .--one wonders!!
Its more ranges that are needed in this country and we all could do without your bickering, for God sake think positive and play your cards close to your chest and if you cant understand that PM me, personally I hope you dont

civdef

How dare you all discuss and advertise Ticknock Range

Skellig, God forbid, people discussing stuff on a discussion forum! Here's the thing, we don't need to ask your permission before creating posts.

Get over yourself.

Rew

skellig wrote:

Its been a while but I felt I had to intervene. How dare you all discuss and advertise Ticknock Range , associates business on Boards . Talk about giving the Antis a helping hand with that type of information .
As for you REW stating that it is typical of the above being tight lipped well "duh "to you ,you big gobeen .
Would you like your business or house planning etc made available on the boards to as you know (God knows who) It is their own private business ---think about it if you can .--one wonders!!
Its more ranges that are needed in this country and we all could do without your bickering, for God sake think positive and play your cards close to your chest and if you cant understand that PM me, personally I hope you dont

Im not a memeber of LRPC, but I am a supporter of what there trying to do. I strongly belive that if you have something to hide you can forget ever having a range.

Playing your cards close to your chest hasn't gotten you too far with Ticknock.

The planning stuff is a matter of public record sinmple as that. The "Antis" aren't as anti when you talk to them and explain where they have taken you up wrong, id like to think I proved that with the mountin bikers.

Your really should look at what you posted its cryptic and does zero for your cause. Looks like we may have a chance to meet face to face soon feel free to say your peace here or then.

Traumadoc

There seems to ba a lot of development planned in the area-

http://www.unison.ie/classifieds/property/commercial/stories.php?ca=151&si=1490221

skellig

Its a shooters forum Civdef all the more reason to help out the sport the best way we can, it is not necessary to display any clubs private business on boards. Its bad enough to have it for public viewing on Bord Pleanala website without certain people adding to its problems. Damage can be one by too much discussions especially uninformed ones.


REW as I expected you just dont have a clue do you? Its your type of support we could all do without, its of no help what so ever

"I strongly believe that if you have something to hide you can forget ever having a range"

How wrong can you be REW there is no point in me trying to explain it to you it wont help the situation at all. I will just have to leave you in ignorance on the matter. Its likely you know me REW ,if so please refrain from naming me on the boards as I have firearms and I dont need my name up for public viewing for that reason surely even you REW can understand this.(get my drift)

As for meeting face to face Im not interested

Clash

skellig wrote:

Its been a while but I felt I had to intervene. How dare you all discuss and advertise Ticknock Range , associates business on Boards . Talk about giving the Antis a helping hand with that type of information

Everything that I've read here is a matter of public record. If you have a problem with that, I'd suggest you take it up with An Bord Pleanala.

Would you like your business or house planning etc made available on the boards to as you know (God knows who) It is their own private business ---think about it if you can .--one wonders!!

All planning matters are a matter of public record, it's called openness and transparency in the planning system. So yes, we could discuss Rew's planning application here if we wanted. Have you got one in Rew?

Its more ranges that are needed in this country

No argument there, but there's a right way and a wrong way of going about it.

for God sake think positive and play your cards close to your chest and if you cant understand that PM me, personally I hope you dont

That's the wrong way, aside from the inherent oxymoron in the above sentence.

Rew

skellig wrote:

Its a shooters forum Civdef all the more reason to help out the sport the best way we can, it is not necessary to display any clubs private business on boards. Its bad enough to have it for public viewing on Bord Pleanala website without certain people adding to its problems. Damage can be one by too much discussions especially uninformed ones.

Well thanks for informing us, if the committee thinks somehting here is damaging there are 3 mods they can contact about it.

REW as I expected you just dont have a clue do you? Its your type of support we could all do without, its of no help what so ever

I wonder who is the one who's really out of touch with reality here. Take a long hard look at your self. Shooting dosn't need people who treat all none shooters as the enemy. You do nothing for the sport. Education, dialogue and some understaning of why they might be "Antis" would go along way.

"I strongly believe that if you have something to hide you can forget ever having a range"
How wrong can you be REW there is no point in me trying to explain it to you it wont help the situation at all. I will just have to leave you in ignorance on the matter.

I get the feeling this is how you treat everyone... :rolleyes:

You haven't even said what your relationship to the whole situation is? Why should we even entertian your posts? Its not as if you make any significant contrabution here.

Its likely you know me REW ,if so please refrain from naming me on the boards as I have firearms and I dont need my name up for public viewing for that contrabutud reason surely even you REW can understand this.(get my drift)

Iv zero interest in naming you or anyone else, most of us have certs, why you even posted that I dont know.

As for meeting face to face Im not interested

Good to know, again I get the impression this is a theme with you. No talk, no meetings, no info. Do you speek for everyone?

Sparks

skellig wrote:

"I strongly believe that if you have something to hide you can forget ever having a range"
How wrong can you be REW there is no point in me trying to explain it to you

Bull. Skellig, you guys were warned well ahead of any of the complaints being made initially by the mountain bikers that those complaints were going to crop up. LRPC was specifically told that they desperately needed to have a public relations officer and to come out and engage with people before the problem spiralled out of control. You thought this would be foolish and cause problems. Well, we've all seen how well that approach worked. RRPC, Rew and Civ are right; in today's world, keeping it all sotto voce does nothing for you and generally just gets you into trouble. The real tragedy here is not so much that the ticknock range is now in trouble; the real tragedy is that it didn't have to be

Seriously guys - the only way to prevent another 1972 is to ensure everyone thinks well of us and doesn't think that we're some secretive dangerous bunch whose sport wouldn't be that great a loss!

skellig

REW Its you who is out of touch with reality. Who treats non-shooters as the "enemy" dont be silly whats with the enemy lingo (far fron reality talk REW)

I treat everyone equally and my contribution is as valid as anyone else on boards.

I still maintain a Clubs privacy in such delicate matters should be respected by all us shooters. I wonder would you or anyone on these boards be dumb enough to broadcast and highlight their Club planning details or any other business of their Range on a format such as this---(I think not )

We are all aware these things are available to be viewed on the official Planning Websites (Thats hardly the point ) Planning at any time is a delicate issue especially these days ---so why not give it a break especially in the interest of Ticknock

Sparks

skellig wrote:

I still maintain a Clubs privacy in such delicate matters should be respected by all us shooters.

What privacy, exactly?
Last I checked, there was good reason for such matters to be, by law, matters in the public domain.

I wonder would you or anyone on these boards be dumb enough to broadcast and highlight their Club planning details or any other business of their Range on a format such as this---(I think not )

Last I looked, RRPC's plans were in the public domain and not just from An Bord Planala, they're up on their website and elsewhere, as were details of the process, and their process has been commented on by the NTSA and others in public. And so far, they look like they're going to have the premier facility on the east coast for smallbore shooting, and one of the best pistol and airgun setups as well. If you ask me - and even if you don't - you can't hide from publicity as it seems you'd like to, so you'd better learn to use it to your advantage.

We are all aware these things are available to be viewed on the official Planning Websites (Thats hardly the point ) Planning at any time is a delicate issue especially these days ---so why not give it a break especially in the interest of Ticknock

Because not talking about it is what got the LRPC in trouble in the first place!