Gardai get power to seize foreign cars

boardy

From the Independent today:

GARDAI are soon to be given the power to impound cars belonging to foreign nationals.

At present gardai cannot seize untaxed and uninsured vehicles if they are not registered in the State.

Transport Minister Martin Cullen announced yesterday that he would be introducing legislation to rectify this situation in the coming weeks.

Under the planned new laws, gardai will be able to impound any vehicles within the State, regardless of whether or not they are registered here, if they have no tax or insurance. The changes will allow gardai seize from foreign nationals living here and from those from across the border.

zuutroy

A further inch toward having a proper system!.......

magpie

Does this have to be Irish tax/insurance? Or are The Grundy going to be trained in how to recognise and verify insurance certificates from a variety of eastern european nations?

I can't help suspecting this has more to do with lost VRT income than road safety. I read a couple of pieces in the IT today which bandied about quite a lot of unverifiable information like "Foreign nationals are more likely to drink drive".

The Govt has always been quite adept at distracting from the real causes of road fatalities by coming up with new campaigns. This one is particularly ingenious as it taps into the latent racism of the average Irish punter.

Again without enforcement this is pretty much useless

ballooba

I was at an IT awards ceremony recently where the presenter was a politician. Chief Whip I think. He joked that they always implement the systems which take money off us first. i.e. Revenue generating systems.

Would one such system not be a register of foreign cars coming into and leaving our ports. Any car in the country longer than a fixed period gets impounded.

Gary ITR

zuutroy wrote:

A further inch toward having a proper system!.......

Still many miles to go

boardy

Some interesting points being raised.

The logistics of enforcement can seem overwhelming. How does a Guard know when a car came into this country? How do they track it? Should there be a leaveway period?

Is this a vote-catcher by the way? Is it being done because of public sentiment?

And what's the story if the car has been taxed and insured in the country of origin? Is this just a double tax on them?

My opinion is that if they can get their home insurance to include Ireland and if it's taxed already and the documentation is there to prove it, then they should be entitled to drive here legally.

spockety

They should have to abide by the same rules and regulations that everybody else does concerning VRT, and road tax. If they don't, the sooner they're off the road, the better.

fatboypee

enforcement is the key to this one, as per...

how many NI Reg cars do you see buzzin about ? Loads round here... nobody seems inclined to re-reg them and nobody checks as long as the tax is up to date, heck in my 'willage' alone theres one guy driving a french reg, another a German reg and several others (spain, portugal, poland, Czech to name but a few) most of these guys/gals I know are living and working here. I've seen 'em get waived on at checkpoints with annoying regularity and all of whom it has to be said will, if they have a non-irish licence be exempt from the penalty points system...

System ? Somebody said there was a system ? Where ? is it new ??

FBP.

MrPudding

boardy wrote:

How does a Guard know when a car came into this country? How do they track it?

Not that difficult* all vehicles coming off ferries get their reg plates entered into a database. The date of entry is noted as is the date of exit. Also on entry the driver must supply an address where there is a reasonable expectation that they can be contacted at. This could be extended whereby tax and insurance from the country of origin could be verified.

Then we give the Gardai radios or mobile phones. If they stop a car they can call in and check the reg.

*apart from the border with the north. If this kind of system was put in place it would have to be done in Larne as well otherwise people would start using Larne to get onto the island. Also, I am not sure what you would do with Nordie plates. Impound car if not registered?

MrP

magpie

Also, I am not sure what you would do with Nordie plates

Controlled explosion TBH

boardy

magpie wrote:

Controlled explosion TBH

Does that mean you are in the "the latent racism of the average Irish punter" club?

Lord Nikon

I know if I was driving in another country, after paying tax/insurance here, i would be strongly against paying insurance or tax in any other country.

If you where going on a holiday in France or England, do you think it's right to have to re-register your car just to drive in that country? No

To be honest, i would like to see every car that has no tax or insurance or NCT impounded indefinitely, on foreign plates or not. 20 euro for everyday the car is in the pound, and it's released straight away with prove of tax/insurance/NCT.

IDMUD

The guards don't know wtf regarding the rules of driving a foreign car here. IF they also get proper training of what the actual law says so that they don't wrongfully impound cars then I'm all for it.

rsta

boardy wrote:

From the Independent today:

GARDAI are soon to be given the power to impound cars belonging to foreign nationals.

At present gardai cannot seize untaxed and uninsured vehicles if they are not registered in the State.

Transport Minister Martin Cullen announced yesterday that he would be introducing legislation to rectify this situation in the coming weeks.

Under the planned new laws, gardai will be able to impound any vehicles within the State, regardless of whether or not they are registered here, if they have no tax or insurance. The changes will allow gardai seize from foreign nationals living here and from those from across the border.

Good, i hope they implement it soon, there are too many foreign nationals driving around witout insurance.
a lot of them are insured from their home countries but it only covers them for a short period overseas, say 45 days or something like that, and as most of them are living an working here they let their ins. expire and dont bother getting ins. here.
its not cool.

Our man in Havana

neuromancer wrote:

I know if I was driving in another country, after paying tax/insurance here, i would be strongly against paying insurance or tax in any other country.

If you where going on a holiday in France or England, do you think it's right to have to re-register your car just to drive in that country? No

To be honest, i would like to see every car that has no tax or insurance or NCT impounded indefinitely, on foreign plates or not. 20 euro for everyday the car is in the pound, and it's released straight away with prove of tax/insurance/NCT.

Try driving in Austria without an Austrian tax disc see how far you get. Or Hungary or Slovakia for that matter. Tourists must pay the road tax in these countries.

boardy

neuromancer wrote:

I know if I was driving in another country, after paying tax/insurance here, i would be strongly against paying insurance or tax in any other country.

Yes, as long as your insurance covers you in that country (and you can prove it to their law enforcement).

neuromancer wrote:

If you where going on a holiday in France or England, do you think it's right to have to re-register your car just to drive in that country?

No, but there should be a reasonable time limit. For example, if a migrant worker arrives from Poland with his car and is required to tax and insure his car here, then it would be unfair (after he paid these fees) if he changed his mind in a couple of weeks and decided that Ireland was not for him.

neuromancer wrote:

To be honest, i would like to see every car that has no tax or insurance or NCT impounded indefinitely, on foreign plates or not. 20 euro for everyday the car is in the pound, and it's released straight away with prove of tax/insurance/NCT.

That would definitely help to solve the problems with uninsured/untaxed drivers here.

magpie

Does that mean you are in the "the latent racism of the average Irish punter" club?

Fair criticism, though on a more serious note I read that the Guards are almost at full capacity for their available storage space for impounded vehicles. In other words if they start impounding more they're going to have to squash them or blow them up. Or possibly sell them, but I'm not sure of the legalities around this, i.e. how long they have to hold them etc.

lil-buttons

Ah no!
I was plannin on gettin my car in the north come June was hoping that I would get away with it !!
Bugger them anyways jus when I thought I would get away with speedin and all...no fair!!1

whiteboard

They already record the reg nos on some ferrys. I was tavelling Dub to Holyhead last week with irish ferries and we were approached by 2 security people one marked down the reg and the other asked for ID so they could put a name against the reg. Not a difficult thing to formalise this if it is already in place from a security point of view.

I have to agree that the sooner it is introduced and inforced the better. We (law abiding) are getting screwed from all directions for taxes which others just dont pay. An Irish neighbour of mine has been driving an english reg BMW here for the last 2 years without having to reregister it; they english tax disk on the window expired in Nov 04. As mentioed before how is this being insured?

boardy

magpie wrote:

Fair criticism, though on a more serious note I read that the Guards are almost at full capacity for their available storage space for impounded vehicles. In other words if they start impounding more they're going to have to squash them or blow them up. Or possibly sell them, but I'm not sure of the legalities around this, i.e. how long they have to hold them etc.

If the Guards are going to be serious about it then they will need extra resources e.g. new impounds, backup personnel (tow trucks) etc., and a way to legally streamline the process.

I think that there will be more bark than bite in this initiative.

MrPudding

magpie wrote:

Fair criticism, though on a more serious note I read that the Guards are almost at full capacity for their available storage space for impounded vehicles.

Damn. That's it then. If only we had a way of increasing the capacity for storing impouned cars. Surely there is something we could do?:rolleyes:

MrP

el tel

I find the suggestions regarding what to do with NI reg cars quite amusing.
All those people taking a militant stance should realise that there are numerous vehicles in the North that are Southern registered - tourists, students, workers etc. I don't think many Southern Irish people would appreciate it if their cars were impounded or had a 'controlled explosion' carried out (as suggested by Magpie).

Ratchet

rsta wrote:

Good, i hope they implement it soon, there are too many foreign nationals driving around witout insurance.
a lot of them are insured from their home countries but it only covers them for a short period overseas, say 45 days or something like that, and as most of them are living an working here they let their ins. expire and dont bother getting ins. here.
its not cool.

big pile of poo,

how do you know that they do not have insurance? I love the way people just speculate and have no clue what they talking about.

they care more about the car then you do and it is also compulsory to have insurance in their country, so if you do not renew insurance you will get chased by authorities (and you will have to sell the car to pay areas, unless is declared of the road(which means that you have return the reg plates)
Also many insurance companies over there allow them to drive abroad entire policy duration not like here something stupid like 30 days limit.

on the other note, I wouldn't like to be involved in accident with any these cars as getting insurance claim probably would take eternity.

i don't care about insurance that much but roadtax drives me mad. Not only doesn't go entirely to repair the roads and should be in the petrol price from day first. This will sort out all these big UK BMW. LV, LT plates and taxi drivers.

simple rule-- you use the road more you pay more.

Still will be very hard to seize some cars

michaelanthony

They've been impounding foreign cars for months.

Ratchet

michaelanthony wrote:

They've been impounding foreign cars for months.

yep , it's more PR from minister then anything else.

Pheonix park impound was full of LV cars

MercMad

The point is that WE pay road tax to be allowed to drive over here............so should everybody else................UNLESS they are on holidays, and that should be easy enough to prove !

Insurance-wise someone with Irish Insurance cannot drive in other parts of Europe indefinitely, so why should the reverse not be true. Foreign insurance companies are prevented from entering the Irish market for many reasons, one being that the cover given is not as comprehensive as we have. (Yeah we all know the REAL reason) Anyway that therefore means that insurance from another country doesn't cover drivers to the extent we'd like. Think about it, things are bad enough without trying to claim agaist a foreign insurance company !

This isn't racism, its equality. You drive here then you do as we do !

As far as tax goes thats trickier since some countries dont have any method to display whether or not the tax is current. Maybe they should ALL have to pay for 3 months tax and that way they would have to give a valid traceable address to post the disc to !

For UK or NI cars the tax disc is obvious !

MrPudding

MercMad wrote:

The point is that WE pay road tax to be allowed to drive over here............so should everybody else................UNLESS they are on holidays, and that should be easy enough to prove !

Tell that to all the Irish people living in the north not pay UK (cheaper!) road tax.

MercMad wrote:

Insurance-wise someone with Irish Insurance cannot drive in other parts of Europe indefinitely, so why should the reverse not be true.

Just because Irish insurance companies are thieving bastards that provide us with policies with reduced options compared to other European provider?

MercMad wrote:

Foreign insurance companies are prevented from entering the Irish market for many reasons, one being that the cover given is not as comprehensive as we have. (Yeah we all know the REAL reason) Anyway that therefore means that insurance from another country doesn't cover drivers to the extent we'd like. Think about it, things are bad enough without trying to claim agaist a foreign insurance company !

We all know the reason. Like you say claiming is potentially an absolute nightmare. But, rather than deciding on a blanket ban on foreign insurance I would prefer to see a set of standards that the policies need to adhere to. TBH I would prefer to see more competition to the few irish insurers we have and I don't mind where it comes from as long as the people are covered.

MercMad wrote:

As far as tax goes thats trickier since some countries dont have any method to display whether or not the tax is current. Maybe they should ALL have to pay for 3 months tax and that way they would have to give a valid traceable address to post the disc to !

For UK or NI cars the tax disc is obvious !

What needs to happen is the Irish authorites need to get their fingers out of their asses and start to contact other countries and work out cross border tax and isurance agreements. It should not be difficult to make it a requirement for drivers entering the country to have documentation from from their insurance company or road tax authority showing the validity of both and having it in English.

MrP

Seth Brundle

MercMad wrote:

As far as tax goes thats trickier since some countries dont have any method to display whether or not the tax is current. Maybe they should ALL have to pay for 3 months tax and that way they would have to give a valid traceable address to post the disc to !

The revenue's current system allows foreign cars into Ireland temporarily for up to 12 months without having to reregister and therefore tax/NCT the car.
What if a foreigner comes over here with a valid tax disc - should they be forced to tax their car again here?
The French (and possibly others) don't pay annual road tax. What would they display?

Alun

kbannon wrote:

The French (and possibly others) don't pay annual road tax. What would they display?

Not to mention the countries where, even though they do pay car tax, don't have to have their car festooned with stupid "discs" like here.

Seth Brundle

I think the discs idea is a good one and can't see why the UK for example doesn't make the displayng of insurance mandatory.
However, I think the revenue/local authorities could make a huge step forwards by implementing a system here similar to the SORN (Statutory Off Road Notification) in the UK.

MercMad

My point was that Ireland is the one with the different system and IT has to change, however that is unlikely to happen ................EVER !

In fac t in alot of other Countries the PERSON is what is insured and NOT the car !

The Insurance companies over here have had it their way for so long and when the Government forced them to become more competive the Insurance companies demanded that the Government made changes so they could still target certain folk................i.e those with penalty points !

I understand all about how difficult it could bve but the fact is it is UNFAIR now to allow every tom dick and harry to bring their cars over and drive around without any checking procedeure !

We could have someone driving an unroadworthy car, with a foreign licence that they BOUGHT, over here driving for the first time on the left side with possibly zero hours driving experience at all !!

magpie

had a 'controlled explosion' carried out (as suggested by Magpie).

Norn Iron used to be the home of the Controlled Explosion until quite recently. Also invented the uncontrolled version of exploding car as well AFAIK. Those in glass houses etc.

Damn. That's it then. If only we had a way of increasing the capacity for storing impouned cars. Surely there is something we could do?

You so clever. There is however a resource implication to this, so on balance is it worth the expenditure?

If the Guards are going to be serious about it then they will need extra resources e.g. new impounds, backup personnel (tow trucks) etc., and a way to legally streamline the process.

I think that there will be more bark than bite in this initiative.

Exactly.

Alun

kbannon wrote:

I think the discs idea is a good one and can't see why the UK for example doesn't make the displayng of insurance mandatory.

Other countries use technology. Just type in the reg no. and you'll know everything about the status of the car you need to know. In Holland for example there isn't a single sticker or 'disc' to be seen.

MrPudding

magpie wrote:

You so clever. There is however a resource implication to this, so on balance is it worth the expenditure?

I don't know you tell me. You are the one that said it could not be done because they don't have enough room. If there is a need and a will to do it then it will be done. Also, I suppose it depends on what they are going to do with the impounded cars. Selling them after a period of time and charging daily impound fees would generate revenue. A couple of out of town multystories and you sorted.

MrP

Seth Brundle

MercMad wrote:

We could have someone driving an unroadworthy car, with a foreign licence that they BOUGHT, over here driving for the first time on the left side with possibly zero hours driving experience at all !!

Excellent point. These foreigners should not be coming over here where only we should be the ones allowed to drive with "zero hours driving experience".

magpie

I don't know you tell me. You are the one that said it could not be done because they don't have enough room.

No, I said they had reached their storage capacity. I never said it could not be done.

Also, I suppose it depends on what they are going to do with the impounded cars. Selling them after a period of time

You'll note I suggested this but questioned the legal requirements. Do you have any insight into whether they're allowed to sell them, and after what period of time?

charging daily impound fees would generate revenue

Assuming the owner is willing to pay them and/or the car isn't worth less than the impound fee.

couple of out of town multystories

How far out of town? How much would they cost? How many staff would be required to run them? Would you subcontract the towing or have garda vans etc etc

TBH I doubt that any revenue could be earned from this scheme, and this seems to be the bottom line of Irish law enforcement.

fatboypee

kbannon wrote:

Excellent point. These foreigners should not be coming over here where only we should be the ones allowed to drive with "zero hours driving experience".

el tel

magpie wrote:

Norn Iron used to be the home of the Controlled Explosion until quite recently. Also invented the uncontrolled version of exploding car as well AFAIK. Those in glass houses etc.

I've lived in Northern Ireland for 28 years and until this day I never knew it was once 'the home of the Controlled Explosion' and that it was the origin of the carbomb to which you refer. Thanks for the insight.

magpie

origin of the carbomb

The car bomb was invented by the Provisional IRA AFAIK

home of the Controlled Explosion

The concept of the controlled explosion and the machines that deliver the explosive were also pioneered by the British Army in Northern Ireland. For instance http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/nova/transcripts/2413bombsquad.html (but you can find lots more info about this is you look)

NARRATOR: The Mark Two Wheelbarrows had a remotely controlled arm, which meant it could tackle a car bomb where it was parked. Peter Gurney, a former chief of the London Bomb Squad, was one of the first people to try it out in Belfast.

PETER GURNEY: This machine was really the first of the car bomb killers, because it had on the front an attachment to break a car window. Now, the idea was that you drove up onto this part that actually came in contact with a car window, and so it was forced in. This would spring out and break your car window. There was a lot of trouble with the early ones on these, because they tended to skid up a window, and you would find yourself unable to break the window. So, you had to withdraw the Wheelbarrow. And then, Colonel Miller modified them by fitting in a tungsten carbide tip in there which actually digs into the glass and stops it skidding.

NARRATOR: It delivered an explosive charge that was designed to disrupt the car bomb components without detonating the bomb. The tube of explosive was called candle.

INSTRUCTIONAL FILM V/O: Candle consists of 108 grams of aluminized explosive contained in a plastic tube and initiated by an electric detonator. When candle is fired, the car is opened up and there is a high probability that the IED will be completely disrupted.

NARRATOR: This is what came to be known as a controlled explosion.

Thanks for the insight

You're welcome. I'm surprised you've lived in Northern Ireland for so long without knowing about this, but I'm glad to have been able to facilitate you learning something new.

MrPudding

magpie wrote:

You'll note I suggested this but questioned the legal requirements. Do you have any insight into whether they're allowed to sell them, and after what period of time?

I don't actually know but I would imagine that if they couldn't now legislation could / should be put in place to allow them to.

magpie wrote:

Assuming the owner is willing to pay them and/or the car isn't worth less than the impound fee.

Exactly, this is where it get complicated. The sh1tter the car the more likely it is the owner will leave it. Add to that the fact that there may be outstanding finance on the car. It is not simple.

magpie wrote:

How far out of town? How much would they cost? How many staff would be required to run them? Would you subcontract the towing or have garda vans etc etc

Again I don't know. I do not know anything about running impound yards, why should I? I leave the running of impound yard to, well, the people that run them. I would like to think that if they needed more space they would know what to do and will not drop me a PM looking for help.

magpie wrote:

TBH I doubt that any revenue could be earned from this scheme, and this seems to be the bottom line of Irish law enforcement.

I don't see how it could not generate any revenue. Some people are bound to pay to get their cars back. If they are allowed to sell cars after a period they are bound to get money form that. So I don't see how they could earn nothing from it. Perhaps they may not earn enough to cover the running costs of the scheme but that is different.

You would also have to look at the potential increase in Road tax revenue and income to the gov from insurance duty. If people run the risk of losing their car for no tax or insurance they are probably more like to purchase them.

All in all it might actually reduce the number of ninsured Irish drivers on the road as well as non-nationals.

MrP

fatboypee

magpie wrote:

The car bomb was invented by the Provisional IRA AFAIK



The concept of the controlled explosion and the machines that deliver the explosive were also pioneered by the British Army in Northern Ireland. For instance http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/nova/transcripts/2413bombsquad.html (but you can find lots more info about this is you look)

You're welcome. I'm surprised you've lived in Northern Ireland for so long without knowing about this, but I'm glad to have been able to facilitate you learning something new.

fatboypee

magpie wrote:

The car bomb was invented by the Provisional IRA AFAIK



The concept of the controlled explosion and the machines that deliver the explosive were also pioneered by the British Army in Northern Ireland. For instance http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/nova/transcripts/2413bombsquad.html (but you can find lots more info about this is you look)

You're welcome. I'm surprised you've lived in Northern Ireland for so long without knowing about this, but I'm glad to have been able to facilitate you learning something new.

el tel

magpie wrote:

The car bomb was invented by the Provisional IRA AFAIK

Well, the "AFAIK" at the end of your statement makes it totally incontrovertible.

To get back to the topic - I think the whole thing will be an unworkable mess for years to come yet. In the North there are 1000s of cars that are without tax and insurance and the PSNI and DVLNI are desperately unable to deal with the situation. I doubt the Gardai and the authorities in the South can be any more effective given their track record with enforcing these sorts of measures.

magpie

To get back to the topic

.. and to totally ignore the fact you were proved wrong about Northern Ireland being the home of the controlled explosion...

Well, the "AFAIK" at the end of your statement makes it totally incontrovertible.

Well, you can't deny that they've certainly triggered a lot of them over the course of the last 30 odd years. Or did you miss that as well?

So I don't see how they could earn nothing from it. Perhaps they may not earn enough to cover the running costs of the scheme but that is different.

If you're not covering costs then you're earning nothing. In fact you are losing money or generating negative earnings, so its not different at all.

Imposter

Bond-007 wrote:

Try driving in Austria without an Austrian tax disc see how far you get. Or Hungary or Slovakia for that matter. Tourists must pay the road tax in these countries.

Actually no such 'disc' exists. Austrian registered cars need a Pickerl (basically an NCT badge) as well as a Zulassungsschein (This is the registration info for the car, tying the car to it's owner to the number plates). This is enough as the Zulassungsschein is tied to the number plates on the car which have to be given back if insurance is not up to date. Tax is paid in the insurance so that solves that one.

Foreign cars need their International insurance cert which I presume also exists in Ireland. It's the green thing that lists your policy number, your insurer and the countries and dates where your insurance is valid.

Mr. Pudding wrote:

What needs to happen is the Irish authorites need to get their fingers out of their asses and start to contact other countries and work out cross border tax and isurance agreements. It should not be difficult to make it a requirement for drivers entering the country to have documentation from from their insurance company or road tax authority showing the validity of both and having it in English.

Does the international insurance cert not exist in Ireland then?

Devon

I love it. Fly magpie.... FLY!!!

magpie wrote:

The car bomb was invented by the Provisional IRA AFAIK



The concept of the controlled explosion and the machines that deliver the explosive were also pioneered by the British Army in Northern Ireland. For instance http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/nova/transcripts/2413bombsquad.html (but you can find lots more info about this is you look)





You're welcome. I'm surprised you've lived in Northern Ireland for so long without knowing about this, but I'm glad to have been able to facilitate you learning something new.

el tel

magpie wrote:

.. and to totally ignore the fact you were proved wrong about Northern Ireland being the home of the controlled explosion...

So since 15.39 today, providing one website link and a passage from said website amounts to absolute and unequivocal proof that your opinion is in an irrefutable fact and as such the other party in an argument is wrong?

magpie wrote:

Well, you can't deny that they've certainly triggered a lot of them over the course of the last 30 odd years. Or did you miss that as well?

At least you are humble enough to downgrade your bold statement to the indecisive terms "a lot of them" and "30 odd years". You obviously know what you are talking about and have great conviction in it.

And I didn't miss the explosions, like others I've lost people in them.

That's why I was happy to get back on topic

MrPudding

Imposter wrote:

Does the international insurance cert not exist in Ireland then?

I don't know, you tell me. F it does why is there so much confusion as to whether ot not foreign drivers have insurance?

magpie wrote:

If you're not covering costs then you're earning nothing. In fact you are losing money or generating negative earnings, so its not different at all.

Not actually true. Earning can relate to income before tax and charges so it would be possible for it to earn money but not make profit or cover costs.

And on the subject of car bombs. I seem to recall them being used occaionally during the second world war. My Irish histroy is a bit shaky but I believe that would be before the provos.

MrP

Imposter

MrPudding wrote:

I don't know, you tell me. F it does why is there so much confusion as to whether ot not foreign drivers have insurance?

I don't know. I've never driven in Ireland so that's why i asked! How do you prove you have insurance if you are in an irish car in Northern Ireland or anywhere else? I can't imagine the insurance 'disc' is known and understood throughout europe!

Our man in Havana

Whats the dealy with the vingette?