Why are so many non-nationals killed on our roads?

fjon

I was watching the news the other night, and they had a bit about how many people have been killed on Irish roads this January. They published a list of the dead, and I noticed about 10-20% of them were non-nationals. Why is this? Are they not used to Irish roads? Do they drive more recklessly than us?

RobEire

crap drivers is probably the answer. standards for passing drivers tests differ from country to country.

mike65

Most such drivers are in LHD vehicles and no doubt some drink and drive. They proberly drive quite a bit late at night going from where they work to where they live or to visit fellow Poles/Lithuainains etc where there is no doubt some partying going on.

In that list there were 36 named I think, of which 6 (?) were non nationals. At least two were killed in the one crash.

Mike.

stevenmu

I'm sure it's because of a variety of reasons.

One of which is probably that some foreign drivers wouldn't have any understanding of the various systems we have in place on the roads here. I know a girl from Tanzania who drives back home but was terrified in cars here because of the much higher speeds, traffic volumes and not understanding the systems in place to keep cars apart from each other.

Another is probably that many foreign drivers seem to come from places where drinking and driving (even both at the same time) is perfectly acceptable, and they just carry on doing it here.

Downtime

I guess because there has been an vast increase on the amount living here aswell. Having said that 3/4 were killed in the one crash.

I was driving to a rugby game a few weeks ago and as I approched the ground a latvian registered car was driving straight towards me on the wrong side of the road.

Jumpy

One word. Alcohol.

There was an eastern european rep on the radio there the other day. Apparently they have the same, if not harsher penalties for drink driving in most EE countries, but they rarely get caught due to lack of road police (sound familiar?). This breeds the habit of drink driving in the knowledge they wont get caught.
He was quite worried about the possibility of racial stereotyping on EE drivers being drunk and untrained though.

fjon

crap drivers is probably the answer. standards for passing drivers tests differ from country to country.

But they are driving in a country where anyone can get into a car and drive without ever having done a driving test or had a driving lesson...

mike65

Yup! Its a recipe for disaster.

Mike.

fjon

Ok, alcohol seems like a plausible reason.
There are a lot more non-nationals here, but nowhere near 16% of the driving population.

michaelanthony

Bads roads might be the answer. The communists knew how to build proper roads

Mexicola

Some gimp in a Lithuanian registered vehicle tried to kill me yesterday - he had been sitting behind me for a while and I could tell he was getting impatient - up my arse - moving from side to side because he couldnt 'see' round me with his left hand drive - he then tried to overtake me on a central median for turning right only to back off and slip back behind me coz a car pulled out from the junction on the right hand side. We carried on up the road - I slowed down to indicate I was getting píssed off with him. He then attempted one of the most daring and utterly stupid peices of overtaking manouverage I have ever seen - on a blind bend coming into a 50km zone - While he was beside me a car came around the bend, flashed him and I quickly swerved into the hard shoulder (if you could call it that) to allow him to come in beside me and then move ahead. I sat on the horn for about 5 seconds while indicating the number 1 using my middle finger at him. Not even a wave from him. I was fit to kill the bástard. At my turn off, I honked again and he casually drove on.
I felt like following him home and giving him a peice of my mind. That or a good kicking...

Gary ITR

A friend of mine is from Poland. He tlls me that drink dring is acceptable in Poland. Also you can insure any car for around €120 a year, thats why you always see these guys in powerful audi's and bmw's etc. Although he described the driving test to me and it sounds a lot tougher than ours.

luckat

Don't forget long working hours. Young people driving home after working a couple of 14-hour shifts back-to-back with five hours' sleep between...

mike65

Just to add one of the foreign dead was a cylcist run over by a truck in Dublin.

Mike.

Seth Brundle

These foreigners come over here and take our jobs our women and now our apalling accident record. We must put a stop to them now.

Seriously though Noel Conroy the Garda Commissioner recently went on the record saying how foreigners were drinking heavily and then driving and that there was a problem in dealing with non nationals.
http://www.breakingnews.ie/text/story.asp?j=208466280&p=zx8467y43&n=208467223&x=
i would have thought that with decent enforcement then drink driving etc would bre reduced. Maybe someone should suggest that to him!

luckat

The only way to stop drink driving is to make it the law that *no* drink can be taken before driving - and enforce it.

After a couple of drinks, you're neither able to judge clearly whether you're in a fit state to drive, nor in a good mood to decide to stop with just the couple.

But we have our values, and drinking is more important to us than safety, so we prevaricate.

smarty

Downtime wrote:

I was driving to a rugby game a few weeks ago and as I approched the ground a latvian registered car was driving straight towards me on the wrong side of the road.

I dont think it is just foreigners who drive like this. Yesterday at 5pm, I was driving past the IFSC, and a middle aged taxi driver was stopped at the traffic lights on the wrong side of the road facing me! The road has three lanes, the first one is for turning right into the IFSC and the other two are for going towards the customs house. He was in the outside lane, I was in the left lane.

When the lights changed he just drove straight along the road on the wrong side for at least another 50 metres. He was completely oblivious to the world around him.

smarty

luckat wrote:

The only way to stop drink driving is to make it the law that *no* drink can be taken before driving - and enforce it.

After a couple of drinks, you're neither able to judge clearly whether you're in a fit state to drive, nor in a good mood to decide to stop with just the couple.

I would like to see a zero tollerance approach to drink driving incorporating a name and shame campaign and a mandatory jail sentence.

Do you think this would act as a deterrent?

murphaph

LHD vehicles definitely have a bearing on things. I saw some attrocious road position from a LV Clio today, going round blind LH bends very wide and forcing other traffic into the ditch. Gimp was doing about 80 in a 50 zone too. Arsewit will kill himself someday, hopefully it'll just be himself involved.

Seth Brundle

I don't think it matters which side of the car the driver is sitting in - it really depends on the driver. That Clio driver would probably have driven like that regardless of the car they were in!

Carb

Does Northern Ireland drivers count as non national drivers. I was passed on the left hand side (hard shoulder) yesterday by a car doing at least 100mph. I'm driving a Honda Accord, and the speed this guy was going at still shook my car. Needless to say it had a yellow number plate.

Driving on a different side of the road no doubt contributes.

Seth Brundle

Carb wrote:

Does Northern Ireland drivers count as non national drivers. I was passed on the left hand side (hard shoulder) yesterday by a car doing at least 100mph. I'm driving a Honda Accord, and the speed this guy was going at still shook my car. Needless to say it had a yellow number plate.

aah here we go with the weekly Norn Iron drivers bash.
Irish drivers are worse then their NI counterparts and for every anecdote of some lunatic NI driver you give me I could give you loads of RoI driver ones!

Talliesin

RobEire wrote:

crap drivers is probably the answer. standards for passing drivers tests differ from country to country.

And in Ireland they are effectively nil, since you can get away with driving without a license. No wonder non-nationals can't cope with it.

MrPudding

stevenmu wrote:

I'm sure it's because of a variety of reasons.

One of which is probably that some foreign drivers wouldn't have any understanding of the various systems we have in place on the roads here.

I'd say this is probably part of it. Most other countries have weird systems like you have to stop at a red light and you are supposed to pass some kind of test of competence before you drive on your own.

It is probably hard to come from that environment to one where the appears to be no law enforcement and an "ah sure it'll be grand" attitude to learning.

MrP

MrPudding

Carb wrote:

Does Northern Ireland drivers count as non national drivers. I was passed on the left hand side (hard shoulder) yesterday by a car doing at least 100mph. I'm driving a Honda Accord, and the speed this guy was going at still shook my car. Needless to say it had a yellow number plate.

Wow. I hate the way they keep coming down here and breaking all the laws. Especially given that the drivers down here never break any traffic laws.:rolleyes:

Are the only traffic offenses you have ever seen committed by drivers from the North?

I have lost count of the number of dodgy overtaking moves I have witnessed by souther drivers, the amount of times I have almost been t-boned by seom [EMAIL="w@nker"]w@nker[/EMAIL] running a red light.

Cop on.

MrP

curieux2

RobEire wrote:

crap drivers is probably the answer. standards for passing drivers tests differ from country to country.

:eek: :eek: :eek: :eek:
I'm gobsmacked :mad:

Automan

I was under the impression that it is illegal to overtake in Ireland in a LHD car.

ds20prefecture

kbannon wrote:

Seriously though Noel Conroy the Garda Commissioner recently went on the record saying how foreigners were drinking heavily and then driving and that there was a problem in dealing with non nationals.

Was this before or after the alcoholic Garda who knocked down 2 girls and then killed a 71 year old while fleeing the scene was jailed for a mere 5 years?

ds20prefecture

Automan wrote:

I was under the impression that it is illegal to overtake in Ireland in a LHD car.

Jesus. H. Christ.

Guy:Incognito

MrPudding wrote:

Wow. I hate the way they keep coming down here and breaking all the laws. Especially given that the drivers down here never break any traffic laws.:rolleyes:

MrP

Thats ok so, as long as they dont go ove rtheir alloted law breaking. What difference does what our own do. There were 50 odd murders here last year, does that entitled 2 northern Irish people to a free murder each?


At the end of the day, unless foreign registered cars are caught doingsomething there is notheing the gards can do. Say a child is knocked down and killed by a latvian reg car, and a witness gets the reg , what can the gards do other than keep an eye out for the car? they have no way of tracing it. A strick enforcement of the import laws should be brought in with any car here longer than the alloted time frame be impounded until the car is re-registered and atx etc payed.

Automan wrote:

I was under the impression that it is illegal to overtake in Ireland in a LHD car.

Seriously, delet ethat before anymore people see it.

Even claiming it was a joke wouldnt save you.

Seth Brundle

Automan wrote:

I was under the impression that it is illegal to overtake in Ireland in a LHD car.

So what happens if you drive a Mclaren F1? Can you overtake or not? :rolleyes:

samo

Stekelly wrote:

At the end of the day, unless foreign registered cars are caught doingsomething there is notheing the gards can do. Say a child is knocked down and killed by a latvian reg car, and a witness gets the reg , what can the gards do other than keep an eye out for the car? they have no way of tracing it. A strick enforcement of the import laws should be brought in with any car here longer than the alloted time frame be impounded until the car is re-registered and atx etc payed.

Totally agree with that, was only talking about this last night and am surprised (well I'm not but I am! :rolleyes: ) that this isnt something thats already bein done, given that our government being loathe to miss out on potential taxes is out of pocket for road tax for all these vehicles and also the potential minefield re insurance etc.

Drax

Automan wrote:

I was under the impression that it is illegal to overtake in Ireland in a LHD car.

And you call yourself Automan ...

ambro25

That's for 'automatic man', not 'automobile man'

Seriously, though. I clicked on the thread and I honestly believed the opening post was a troll. Then i read the rest of the thread and... guess what? It sure turned out to be :rolleyes:

RobEire wrote:

crap drivers is probably the answer. standards for passing drivers tests differ from country to country.

fjon wrote:

But they are driving in a country where anyone can get into a car and drive without ever having done a driving test or had a driving lesson...

Jumpy wrote:

One word. Alcohol.

LHD, RHD have absolutely nothing to do with it.

Nor should all non-nationals be painted by the same (tarred) brush (before being feathered, of course): dare I suggest, as a 'non-national' (who's been driving in some 20-odd countries, big onces, small ones and on many continents), that there's a sh1t of a long way to go before (IE) 'nationals' can consider themselves so superior in all things road manner and road competence -related that they feel entitled to pass judgement on any driver of any other nationality? :mad:

Rarely have I seen posts that have made me think so much about a comparison of recipients involving a particularly dark shade of grey. I mean, for such a religious country... wasn't there some quote in the Bible about "thy neighbour's eye" and all that? :rolleyes:

Automan

Automan wrote:

I was under the impression that it is illegal to overtake in Ireland in a LHD car.

Well until now this was my impression, thanks to everybody for the feedback, unlike some people I have no problem with being wrong, I am human after all.;)

fjon

ambro25 wrote:

fjon wrote:

But they are driving in a country where anyone can get into a car and drive without ever having done a driving test or had a driving lesson...

I was actually referring to Ireland when I said that.

I know Irish drivers are far from perfect, and I would never pass judgement on someone else unless I had something to back it up.
However, the fact is that 16% of road deaths on Irish roads last month were non-national. There is no way way in hell that the non-national population in Ireland is anywhere near 16% I was just wondering if this was coincidence, or whether there was another reason for it. And I'm starting to believe the latter is correct.

Seth Brundle

fjon wrote:

I was actually referring to Ireland when I said that.

I know Irish drivers are far from perfect, and I would never pass judgement on someone else unless I had something to back it up.
However, the fact is that 16% of road deaths on Irish roads last month were non-national. There is no way way in hell that the non-national population in Ireland is anywhere near 16% I was just wondering if this was coincidence, or whether there was another reason for it. And I'm starting to believe the latter is correct.

The stats, unfortunate as they are reflect one month only. What were the stats of Nationals Vs Non-Nationals for 2003, 2004 and 2005?

IDMUD

Eastern european countries have less difficult drivers tests compared to ireland, just as the western euro countries have way, way more strict (and hence better drivers) than irish ones.

Some are worse, some are much better.

MrPudding

Stekelly wrote:

Thats ok so, as long as they dont go ove rtheir alloted law breaking. What difference does what our own do. There were 50 odd murders here last year, does that entitled 2 northern Irish people to a free murder each?

That's not what I meant and I reckon we both know it. I was simply pointing out that as usual it seems that when it comes to Irish drivers the problems are always with someone else, be it northie or latvians.

Stekelly wrote:

At the end of the day, unless foreign registered cars are caught doingsomething there is notheing the gards can do.

So catch them. :rolleyes: Get out on the roads and catch people.

Stekelly wrote:

Say a child is knocked down and killed by a latvian reg car, and a witness gets the reg , what can the gards do other than keep an eye out for the car? they have no way of tracing it. A strick enforcement of the import laws should be brought in with any car here longer than the alloted time frame be impounded until the car is re-registered and atx etc payed.

Sorry I forgot that Ireland is the only country on the planet where people drive cars with foreign plates. Shame really. If only there was another country somehwere in the world where there was drivers with unresistered cars, we could have asked them how they deal with it.

The probelm here is not with non-national drivers and their cars IMO. The problem is with the guards having neither the tools or the will to do anything about it.

Seriously, if a non-national did a smash and grab on a donut shop and the only thing the cops had to go on I do not doubt they would find them.

I have said this before, having a non Irish reg does not give a driver diplomatic immunity as some posters seem to think. I refuse to believe the cops are as powerless as they claim to be. This country is a bit of a joke but if someone came get away with murder, as Stekelly suggests, simply because they have a foreign reg on their car then it is a bit more of a joke than I thought.

MrP

Carb

MrPudding wrote:

That's not what I meant and I reckon we both know it. I was simply pointing out that as usual it seems that when it comes to Irish drivers the problems are always with someone else, be it northie or latvians.
MrP

Jesus, talk about a sensitive bunch. Perhaps it says it all about Irish drivers that my joke about northern drivers stirs up huge debate, while the fact that somebody can go past me at twice the speed limit on my left hand side, and not one comment was made regarding this. TBH, if the guy had rear ended me at this speed with my three month old son in the back of the car, the colour of the number plate would have been the least of my worries.

I'm well aware that most Northern drivers are perfectly good drivers, you only have to drive in the North for a while to realise this. It's some of the antics south of the border, by a minority that get up my nose. I would suggest anyone that wishes to form an opinion on this should come live in a border area for a while, then their comments may have some level of accuracy to them.

spockety

From elsewhere (a bike crowd) :

"Did the gap on Sunday morning with the BMW crowd. Was good fun but
not exactly the fastest spin due to the cold weather. Anyway, about
50 bikes at least turned up in Laragh where everyone had a free
breakfast thanks to Joe Duffy
Amongst the group of bikes in Laragh was a red 05D Ducati 999 in
mint condition. The guy had left before I did and headed along the
normal route home.
Along the N81 3 Latvian young lads in a white Nissan Sunny were
travelling south from Dublin(towards Hollywood) as the 999 was
heading North towards Dublin.
The car decided to randomly turn around by doing a HANDBREAK turn in
the middle of the ****in road. The 999 tried to avoid it but PLOWED
into the back of the car leaving a massave dent in the car and the
front end of the 999 DESTROYED!
The rider went off to hospital with "injurys" and the bike was fit
for the scrap yard. Front forks bent, disks forced in and broken,
front wheel ****ed, mirror about 100ft down the road, clocks about a
foot further forward than they should have been etc. Horrible site
Oh yeah, forgot to mention the guys in the car had NO insurance or
tax
so not the best end to a good spin"

Guy:Incognito

MrPudding wrote:

Sorry I forgot that Ireland is the only country on the planet where people drive cars with foreign plates. Shame really. If only there was another country somehwere in the world where there was drivers with unresistered cars, we could have asked them how they deal with it.

The probelm here is not with non-national drivers and their cars IMO. The problem is with the guards having neither the tools or the will to do anything about it.

Seriously, if a non-national did a smash and grab on a donut shop and the only thing the cops had to go on I do not doubt they would find them.

Again, what have other countries got to do with OUR problem. TBH other countries dont let people away with driving around the way we do.

As far as cathching people doing things, you do realise that crime happens all over the woorld? It's not like the gards activly encourage crime. Short of assigning every person in the country their own 24hr garda escort, they can not be around for most crimes when they are commited. They do patrols so it's a case of happening upon a crime at the right time.

MrPudding wrote:

I have said this before, having a non Irish reg does not give a driver diplomatic immunity as some posters seem to think. I refuse to believe the cops are as powerless as they claim to be. This country is a bit of a joke but if someone came get away with murder, as Stekelly suggests, simply because they have a foreign reg on their car then it is a bit more of a joke than I thought.

MrP

How would you propose tracking down a latvian reg car?The fact is, they are registered with no one in this country so theres precious little a gard can do to find it.

mb1197

So which foreign drivers are the worst do you think?

MrPudding

luckat wrote:

The only way to stop drink driving is to make it the law that *no* drink can be taken before driving - and enforce it.

The second half is right. The first half is overkill. No additional rules or laws are required. Just enforece the ones we already have.

MrP

Seth Brundle

Carb wrote:

the fact that somebody can go past me at twice the speed limit on my left hand side, and not one comment was made regarding this.

OK then - why did someone need/want to undertake you? Had you a valid reason for occupying the overtaking lane (bearing in mind that the speeding driver must have had some space ahead of him if he was going that fast!)?

Carb wrote:

It's some of the antics south of the border, by a minority that get up my nose. I would suggest anyone that wishes to form an opinion on this should come live in a border area for a while, then their comments may have some level of accuracy to them.

And there isn't similar antics by RoI registered cars on the Northern side?

mb1197 wrote:

So which foreign drivers are the worst do you think?

All of them. Lets form a possee and hunt them all out, the drunken feckers.

MrPudding

Stekelly wrote:

Again, what have other countries got to do with OUR problem. TBH other countries dont let people away with driving around the way we do.

Are you intentionally reducing your IQ in order to completly miss my point? What I was trying to say was other countries have the same problems as us. How do they deal with them? Do you understand now? Do you think the cops in France give people diplomatic immunity simply because they have a different number plate?

Stekelly wrote:

As far as cathching people doing things, you do realise that crime happens all over the woorld? It's not like the gards activly encourage crime. Short of assigning every person in the country their own 24hr garda escort, they can not be around for most crimes when they are commited. They do patrols so it's a case of happening upon a crime at the right time.

Wow really. Crime happens all over the world? Who would have thunk it? Again, my point was we don't have to reinvent the wheel here. This stuff is new to us, we are an island that until recently didn't see many foreign reg plates. If we look to other countries that have multple land borders we may be able to learn something.

Stekelly wrote:

How would you propose tracking down a latvian reg car?The fact is, they are registered with no one in this country so theres precious little a gard can do to find it.

How the fcuk should I know? I don't expect the cops to know how to set up an EMC SAN or install Netbackup, in return I ask they they don't expect me to know how to do their job. So far it is working out nicely for me. It is not up to me to tell them how to do their job. If they can't be arsed doing their job then someone should kick their arse. If they don't have the tools they need to do their job then they should kick someone's arse.

If someone thinks they will get away with a certain behaviour because the people that should be stopping them from doing it can't or won't then human nature will dictate that they will continue with the behaviour until such times as it becomes clear they run a risk of not getting away with it anymore.

Carb wrote:

Jesus, talk about a sensitive bunch. Perhaps it says it all about Irish drivers that my joke about northern drivers stirs up huge debate,

I wouldn't say sensitive per se. Just fed up with perfect southern drivers only able to see law breaking when there is a northie plate.

Carb wrote:

It's some of the antics south of the border, by a minority that get up my nose. I would suggest anyone that wishes to form an opinion on this should come live in a border area for a while, then their comments may have some level of accuracy to them.

It's seems to be a little known fact that a lot of southern driver behave in a remarkably similar way north of the border.

I am not saying northie drivers are perfect, far from it, I am simply pointing out that anytime this subject comes up it is like the only traffic laws broken in this country are broken by northies.

TempestSabre

Basically you can drive over here in any old heap and no licence tax or insurance, and no ability to drive. The odds of being caught as so low.

Carb

kbannon wrote:

OK then - why did someone need/want to undertake you? Had you a valid reason for occupying the overtaking lane (bearing in mind that the speeding driver must have had some space ahead of him if he was going that fast!)?

And there isn't similar antics by RoI registered cars on the Northern side?


All of them. Lets form a possee and hunt them all out, the drunken feckers.

Perhaps if you had a memory that lasted longer than 24hrs, you may recall that I said he went up the hard shoulder. We don't all have the luxuries of motorways and dual carriage ways you know.

Glad to see though, that if there was two lanes that its perfectly ok to do that sort of speed. Have you been driving north of the border lately??:D

Seth Brundle

ok then my bad on the overtaking lane.
Where though did I say it was fine to do those speeds?
I have been driving north of the border frequently for the last 15 or so years. I know what drivers are like on both sides!

Carb

MrPudding wrote:

I wouldn't say sensitive per se. Just fed up with perfect southern drivers only able to see law breaking when there is a northie plate.

It's seems to be a little known fact that a lot of southern driver behave in a remarkably similar way north of the border.

I am not saying northie drivers are perfect, far from it, I am simply pointing out that anytime this subject comes up it is like the only traffic laws broken in this country are broken by northies.

I think there's a distinction between bad driving and dangerous driving. Northern drivers think we're bad drivers, English people think we're bad drivers,
and to a large extent they're correct. I'm talking about dangerous driving, like the incident I metioned, or like the time a car came flying through the toll booth behind me before the barrier came down to avoid paying, or the car that passed out a tail back of about 20 cars completely on the wrong side of the road going over a hill, or been nearly forced of a congested road by two cars racing. I'm sorry, but I've yet to see a southern reg car do any of the above north or south of the border. Not indicating, or not knowing how to drive around a roundabout are hardly the same.