To be taken serious as a web designer what must you know??

py2006

Hi guys,

I dabbled with a little web design some years ago but got bored and dissallusioned with the whole industry especially when the whole job situation went down hill.

For some odd reason I am starting to look back into it again. I did a bit of PHP/Mysql/Apache on a course some years ago but haven't had the chance to put it to practice so would need to start all over.

So basically my question is, apart from having to know HTML, Dreamweaver, photoshop etc what else is required from an employers point of view.

ASP.net? PHP? what else?

Thanks

aidan_walsh

XHTML, CSS, PHP, ASP/ASP.NET, SQL, Javascript and good design practises are all well worth looking into.

py2006

aidan_walsh wrote:

XHTML, CSS, PHP, ASP/ASP.NET, SQL, Javascript and good design practises are all well worth looking into.

Whats the difference between ASP and ASP.net?

Seth Brundle

Actually, quite a lot tbh.
www.w3schools.com/aspnet/aspnet_vsasp.asp

py2006

kbannon wrote:

Actually, quite a lot tbh.
www.w3schools.com/aspnet/aspnet_vsasp.asp

Is it not like the latest version of ASP or are they totally seperate?

Seth Brundle

totally separate really

rsynnott

py2006 wrote:

To be taken serious as a web designer what must you know??

English grammar wouldn't be a bad start. I'm serious.

py2006 wrote:

Whats the difference between ASP and ASP.net?

One is quite a decent web development framework, the other is a scripting language designed personally by Satan shoved bodily into the middle of websites.

Sposs

Professionalism isn't just what you know its how you deal with and present yourself to the customer , it's also about Delivering to the quality that they expect within time and on budget.

py2006

rsynnott wrote:

English grammar wouldn't be a bad start. I'm serious.

Don't be a cheeky little git! There is nothing wrong with my English or my grammar. These boards are informal. If my grammar or punctuation was so bad that it was illegible to others then I wouldn't have posted it in the first place.

seamus

Also be aware of the difference between web developer and web designer. A designer is usually someone with skills/qualifications in art/graphic design/etc. What they actually do, depends on what they're asked for. But at the top end of the scale, the designer will build the look and feel of the site, including the images and CSS. They can also give direction as to how the menus work, how different pages interact with eachother, etc.

A developer will be the guy who does the coding. The guy who inserts form handlers, DHTML menus, tweaks hacks and anything else that requires getting elbow-deep in the languages mentioned above.

These two things can be mutually exclusive - you don't need to know anything about HTML to be a designer, and you don't need to know anything about design to be a developer. Generally though the best people are those who know about the other discipline. A designer who knows about coding will be able to design the site with the developer in mind. A developer who knows about design, doesn't have to go back to the designer for every little piece of extra design, or minor design flaws/CSS flaws.

Few employers will look for someone who is equally skilled in both design and development. If they did, they would be high-spec jobs, paying a lot of cash.

py2006

Hmm, I often wondered what the difference was. I am nearly sure some employers get the both mixed up themselves!

From looking though job ads, I can see that the jobs are in the coding end of things. I do know a good bit of HTML, Dreamweaver, Photoshop etc but its the coding end of things were I would be lacking and of course databases!

So, I would like to get to know more about this side of things. I have some books on PHP/Mysql but I am not sure if this is the root I should take or should I be looking at other coding langages and databases!

muckwarrior

seamus wrote:

you don't need to know anything about HTML to be a designer,

Surely you mean PHP or somesuch? I'd sure as hell never hire a designer that didn't know HTML!

I have some books on PHP/Mysql but I am not sure if this is the root I should take or should I be looking at other coding langages and databases!

PHP/MySQL is as good as any to start off with. The two go hand in hand somewhat, also PHP would be one of the better choices for learning web development and it's fairly widely used so it's good to know from an employment perspective as well.

rsynnott

py2006 wrote:

Don't be a cheeky little git! There is nothing wrong with my English or my grammar. These boards are informal. If my grammar or punctuation was so bad that it was illegible to others then I wouldn't have posted it in the first place.

Hmm, just trying to be helpful...

py2006

rsynnott wrote:

Hmm, just trying to be helpful...

Ok, no worries! I know how to use the English language. I guess your concern was that I would use "forum talk" on a website.

rsynnott

py2006 wrote:

Ok, no worries! I know how to use the English language. I guess your concern was that I would use "forum talk" on a website.

I'd say a good three quarters of the websites posted here for review have glaring grammar errors. It's something to watch out for.

seamus

muckwarrior wrote:

Surely you mean PHP or somesuch? I'd sure as hell never hire a designer that didn't know HTML!

Me neither. But I have in the past received designs from people who know zero about HTML and wondered why the website wasn't identical to their design, down to the pixel. So technically, you don't need to know anything about anything remotely web-related to design a page, but HTML and CSS are a minimum IMO.

I'd say a good three quarters of the websites posted here for review have glaring grammar errors. It's something to watch out for.

Indeed. No matter how much you time you spend making the website pretty, if it contains glaring spelling or grammar errors, then you come off as a scammer/cowboy and people will run a mile.

The Corinthian

seamus wrote:

Few employers will look for someone who is equally skilled in both design and development. If they did, they would be high-spec jobs, paying a lot of cash.

No. Once you get to a certain level people tend to specialize. Either they’re developers or designers, but never both. So, you while you’ll often get designers or developers who can do both, they’ll be very good at only one and passable on the other. Fine for low-spec jobs, but not for the high end of the market.

py2006 wrote:

Hmm, I often wondered what the difference was. I am nearly sure some employers get the both mixed up themselves!

Employers? Clients I hope you mean. If a WebDev firm doesn’t know the difference when it’s hiring, I’d be worried.

So, I would like to get to know more about this side of things. I have some books on PHP/Mysql but I am not sure if this is the root I should take or should I be looking at other coding langages and databases!

That’s the $64,000 question, I suppose. One trick is to become an expert in a technology before everyone else, so that if the technology takes off, so do your salary / rate. And if it doesn’t, well... it makes for an interesting anecdote on an Internet bulletin board site.

I’d probably suggest ASP.NET. There seems to be a lot of work (full time and contract) in that at the moment and so rates are high. As for PHP, MySQL, et al; personally I’m very fond of LAMP-based (Linux-Apache-MySQL-PHP) sites, but I’d probably not try to specialize there if I was starting out today. The market is too crowded and so you can pick up a LAMP developer for the price of a packet of cigarettes nowadays.

py2006

The Corinthian wrote:

No. Once you get to a certain level people tend to specialize. Either they’re developers or designers, but never both. So, you while you’ll often get designers or developers who can do both, they’ll be very good at only one and passable on the other. Fine for low-spec jobs, but not for the high end of the market.

Employers? Clients I hope you mean. If a WebDev firm doesn’t know the difference when it’s hiring, I’d be worried.

That’s the $64,000 question, I suppose. One trick is to become an expert in a technology before everyone else, so that if the technology takes off, so do your salary / rate. And if it doesn’t, well... it makes for an interesting anecdote on an Internet bulletin board site.

I’d probably suggest ASP.NET. There seems to be a lot of work (full time and contract) in that at the moment and so rates are high. As for PHP, MySQL, et al; personally I’m very fond of LAMP-based (Linux-Apache-MySQL-PHP) sites, but I’d probably not try to specialize there if I was starting out today. The market is too crowded and so you can pick up a LAMP developer for the price of a packet of cigarettes nowadays.

ASP.net with Access or with SQL. I am guessing SQL. Is it possible to learn that kind of stuff from home?

iplogger1

py2006,

Your query is of relevance to my career situation also.
I've sent you a PM.

~ipl

Seth Brundle

That all depends on you [and having the right software]!

muckwarrior

The Corinthian wrote:

Employers? Clients I hope you mean. If a WebDev firm doesn’t know the difference when it’s hiring, I’d be worried.

I seen a job advertised for a web developer. Skills required: Photoshop, HTML, CSS, dreamweaver etc.
I emailed them to tell them that their ad should read web designer. They replied saying that they were the same thing! I curteously outlined the difference between the two and informed him that he may not get many applications to a so called "industry leading software development company" that didn't know the difference between a designer and a developer.

py2006

iplogger1 wrote:

py2006,

Your query is of relevance to my career situation also.
I've sent you a PM.

~ipl

I haven't got it yet!

seamus

py2006 wrote:

ASP.net with Access or with SQL. I am guessing SQL. Is it possible to learn that kind of stuff from home?

SQL in itself is more of a standard than something you can install and use. You should be able to find an SQL primer somewhere, but put simply, SQL is a language that you use to "talk" to a database to get information from it and put information into it.

The main problem is that even though many databases will use SQL (MySQL, PostGRESQL, Oracle, even Access), they have what is essentially their own dialects. Certain SQL queries that will work with a MySQL database, won't work with an Oracle database, and vice-versa. Other queries will work with both, but will give you different results.

So to say "I'll learn SQL" is a bit like learning Irish in school. You can know it, but when you actually try to use it in the real world, you'll find that people are using a slightly different version of Irish, depending on where in the country you are

You'd be better off working with one flavour of an SQL database - MySQL for example - getting to know it, and then moving onto others and finding their quirks.

The Corinthian

py2006 wrote:

I am guessing SQL. Is it possible to learn that kind of stuff from home?

Yes, you could, but there’s more to being professional than simply being able to code, as has been suggested. There’s coding conventions, source control and documentation, to name a few off the top of my head. A (semi-)formal course or exposure to a professional environment (i.e. working in the industry) are what are realistically needed for this. The latter will also build up your experience and portfolio, which would add to your “taken seriously” index.

iplogger1 wrote:

Your query is of relevance to my career situation also.
I've sent you a PM.

Why do people think it makes sense to send PM’s to others and then inform them publicly that they’ve sent a PM?

Eoin

py2006 wrote:

Hmm, I often wondered what the difference was. I am nearly sure some employers get the both mixed up themselves!

From looking though job ads, I can see that the jobs are in the coding end of things. I do know a good bit of HTML, Dreamweaver, Photoshop etc but its the coding end of things were I would be lacking and of course databases!

So, I would like to get to know more about this side of things. I have some books on PHP/Mysql but I am not sure if this is the root I should take or should I be looking at other coding langages and databases!

Seamus' post is bang on; it is a distinction that not many people make, but it is a valid one. Do you have any design background? Learning how to design is not easy. You can certainly learn the mechanics of the applications you will use, but unless you have a good eye for design, it is hard to learn good design, if you know what I mean.

If you want to look more at the coding side of things, PHP is very popular and there is a lot of information out there. ASP.NET is a pretty good development framework as mentioned earlier. Also, if you use C# when using the framework, it gives you a good grounding if you want to go into Java development. Remember that .Net is not just for web development, it is a framework for application development also.

.Net is not easy to pick up on your own though really, and I would think that the development suite is not cheap (don't know if there are any free ones out there). Without a company backing you when you are learning it, it could be a very steep learning curve.

I guess it's just a case of whether you have more of a creative or logical mindset that will determine what route to follow.

muckwarrior wrote:

Surely you mean PHP or somesuch? I'd sure as hell never hire a designer that didn't know HTML!

It depends, in my last company the graphic designer was tasked to design the company site. She had absolutely NO web skillz, but all she had to do was come up with a template in PSD format that was up to me as the developer to slice and dice as required. But I suppose she was a graphic designer rather than a web designer...

muckwarrior

eoin_s wrote:

But I suppose she was a graphic designer rather than a web designer...

Yeah, that's the distinction I'd make too. A web designer should know HTML, CSS etc. on top of graphic design.

Seth Brundle

The Corinthian wrote:

Why do people think it makes sense to send PM’s to others and then inform them publicly that they’ve sent a PM?

Answer sent via PM

I also said the same thing recently in this thread URL="http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2054879100"]web designer needed[/URL
and was told that it was to show the public something or other - personally I can't see the need!

Eoin

At the risk of getting slated by other people, if you want to get an understanding of how to develop a site that interacts with a database, then don't dismiss ASP. You don't need much on your PC to get started and the syntax is easy to learn. ASP may be a dying / dead technology, but it will get you started.

Eoin

muckwarrior wrote:

Yeah, that's the distinction I'd make too. A web designer should know HTML, CSS etc. on top of graphic design.

I guess it depends on the structure of the organisation, and the skills of the staff involved. I don't have a particularly good eye for design, but if I am shown what the site should look like (even just in PSD format), I would much prefer to do all the coding (including HTML & CSS) myself.

muckwarrior

eoin_s wrote:

At the risk of getting slated by other people, if you want to get an understanding of how to develop a site that interacts with a database, then don't dismiss ASP. You don't need much on your PC to get started and the syntax is easy to learn. ASP may be a dying / dead technology, but it will get you started.

Very true. I still sometimes use it on personal things coz it's sometimes more straight forward for small simple things than .NET or whatever. However much the same could be said for PHP, apart from the fact that it requires a little setting up on windows. But at least you'd be learing something that isn't obsolete.

mewso

eoin_s wrote:

At the risk of getting slated by other people, if you want to get an understanding of how to develop a site that interacts with a database, then don't dismiss ASP. You don't need much on your PC to get started and the syntax is easy to learn. ASP may be a dying / dead technology, but it will get you started.

While true I would recommend someone to just go straight to Asp.net 2.0, download the free Visual Web Developer asp.net dev software on www.asp.net and dig in with the quickstarts on that site. That is if asp.net is your choice. I'm sorry but if someone wants to enter the job market I can't see asp developers being in demand or that learning vbscript would be anything other than detrimental to learning good OOP.
Finally I would suggest that AJAX for better or worse will be huge this year and this means it's worth brushing up on javascript and the xmlhttprequest object. As a developer I also spend alot of time with the html and css as designers don't often tend to be great at getting dirty with it. Using dreamweaver they can do alot of what they want and even if they have a knowledge of html and css may not bother too much with it. With web standards and accessability being yet another buzzword I have started skipping the designer and going to www.oswd.org, picking up a free template and developing from there

Eoin

musician wrote:

While true I would recommend someone to just go straight to Asp.net 2.0, download the free Visual Web Developer asp.net dev software on www.asp.net and dig in with the quickstarts on that site. That is if asp.net is your choice. I'm sorry but if someone wants to enter the job market I can't see asp developers being in demand or that learning vbscript would be anything other than detrimental to learning good OOP.

Have you used the free IDE? May have to give that a go at home...

VBScript certainly wouldn't be good for learning OOP, but it sounds like the OP needs an introduction to basic programming constructs, and ASP wouldn't be bad for that IMO.

musician wrote:

Finally I would suggest that AJAX for better or worse will be huge this year and this means it's worth brushing up on javascript and the xmlhttprequest object. As a developer I also spend alot of time with the html and css as designers don't often tend to be great at getting dirty with it. Using dreamweaver they can do alot of what they want and even if they have a knowledge of html and css may not bother too much with it. With web standards and accessability being yet another buzzword I have started skipping the designer and going to www.oswd.org, picking up a free template and developing from there

AJAX looks good alright, but it is something you certainly want to be careful of from a usability point of view. The vast majority of the warnings or "cons" to AJAX seem to be that you can easily make a browser act in an entirely different and unintuitive way that will confuse the user. Especially if you are anything like me and desperately look for some way to introduce it into a site just for the sake of it!

mewso

eoin_s wrote:

AJAX looks good alright, but it is something you certainly want to be careful of from a usability point of view. The vast majority of the warnings or "cons" to AJAX seem to be that you can easily make a browser act in an entirely different and unintuitive way that will confuse the user. Especially if you are anything like me and desperately look for some way to introduce it into a site just for the sake of it!

Yeah as I said for better or worse. I've been reading a good book on AJAX and its very complicated if you want to do a proper job on it and the very first thing that struck me was this is going to be so abused to be silly. I have dabbled in it and it can be implemented easily enough but badly. It will be interesting to see where it goes. Anway from a job point of view I just know idiot employers will stick it into their ads because its a buzz word.

rsynnott

eoin_s wrote:

VBScript certainly wouldn't be good for learning OOP, but it sounds like the OP needs an introduction to basic programming constructs, and ASP wouldn't be bad for that IMO.

VBScript destroys brains!

http://www.ddj.com/documents/s=1503/ddj0001vs/jan00.htm

Eoin

rsynnott wrote:

VBScript destroys brains!

http://www.ddj.com/documents/s=1503/ddj0001vs/jan00.htm

Sorry, I was referring to ASP specifically rather than VBScript for applications or whatever. Though I am sure that most of the article also applies. I still don't think it is the tool of Satan you say it is though.

bpmurray

What an eclectic mix of subjects from one post! Anyway, my contribution is:

1. When I want a web designer that's exactly what I get: I don't care if they can't even use a computer (although that limits E-mail communications). In other words, they should understand web behaviours, but there's absolutely no requirement to know HTML/PHP/insert-your-acronym-here. On the other hand, I'd expect a web site design that understands how to attract the visitor, and how to make them come back again; the site should be easy to use, intuitive and responsive. The designer must talk to the developer(s).
2. A web developer should know HTML and XHTML and understand the differences to the finest details. This includes ALL aspects of DHTML: JavaScript (NOT VBScript - that limits the target to IE), CSS, and the markup itself. (S)he should understand how to work around cross-browser issues. A point everyone seems to have overlooked is the requirement that the site be accessible: the US ADA requirements mean that they can sue your customer's arse if you don't do this right!
3. Current trends depend on what area you're focusing on. For example, very few of the big companies use Microsoft for internet sites (a few use them for intranet sites), so J2EE is very important. And, of course, the latest over-hyped AJAX (prototype, Script.acul.us, DojoToolkit). For small companies, ASP & ASP.NET are good - download the freebie VS.Express versions to learn that stuff, but you'll need to upgrade to do anything realistic. LAMP is important too (Linux, Apache, MySql and the P's - PHP, Perl, Python, etc.).

BTW, a comment on AJAX: be very careful - while it can give you a nice slick experience, it really is nasty when overused. The extra server requests kill slow connections. It is also unbelievably insecure: took me all of 10 minutes to write a pretty much undetectable keystroke logger.

ButtermilkJack

eoin_s wrote:

Seamus' post is bang on; it is a distinction that not many people make, but it is a valid one.

Agreed. He made the point very well!

eoin_s wrote:

Do you have any design background? Learning how to design is not easy. You can certainly learn the mechanics of the applications you will use, but unless you have a good eye for design, it is hard to learn good design, if you know what I mean.

Again, very well said. Some people are just born with a creative mind. They know what looks good and what doesn't. And then there are the others, who think their MS Word webpage is a piece of art. Personally, I think you have to be the right type of person in the first place. You can't learn design. You can only develop and tune what you already have. Think of fine artists. It's a similar situation. You can't just wake up one day and say, "I think I'm going to be fine artist." You have to have a talent at the outset.

py2006

I am still a little confused about the whole ASP and ASP.net thing!
Should you have a knowledge of ASP before touching ASP.NET or can you start straight into ASP.net.

rsynnott

py2006 wrote:

I am still a little confused about the whole ASP and ASP.net thing!
Should you have a knowledge of ASP before touching ASP.NET or can you start straight into ASP.net.

You can, and should, start straight into ASP.NET

muckwarrior

py2006 wrote:

I am still a little confused about the whole ASP and ASP.net thing!
Should you have a knowledge of ASP before touching ASP.NET or can you start straight into ASP.net.

The only real similarity between ASP and ASP.NET is the name! ASP.NET is a revolution as opposed to an evolution, i.e. it's a totally new technology built from the ground up. ASP actually would have a lot more in common with PHP or JSP than ASP.NET, so not only is there no need to know ASP first but it would probably actually be easier learning .NET if you didn't learn ASP first.

py2006

muckwarrior wrote:

The only real similarity between ASP and ASP.NET is the name! ASP.NET is a revolution as opposed to an evolution, i.e. it's a totally new technology built from the ground up. ASP actually would have a lot more in common with PHP or JSP than ASP.NET, so not only is there no need to know ASP first but it would probably actually be easier learning .NET if you didn't learn ASP first.

Ah I see, its all coming clearer now! So as a wannabe web developer should I be heading in the direction of ASP.NET rather than PHP?

Seth Brundle

or both.
I think what most are saying is that ASP is on its way out and you are possibly better off learning ASP.net which is currently in demand or PHP which will be in demand for a long time.
You are better off knowing both but to get a job quickly ASP.net may be better

The Corinthian

kbannon wrote:

PHP which will be in demand for a long time.

Famous last words.