Driving on Hard Shoulder on M50- Summonsable offence??

menance

Yesterday evening at peak traffic hour at 6pm, traffic was backed up so I decided to take my exit 200 metres before I should have on the hard shoulder, unfortunately there were guards at the exist stopping people with the same idea.I took it at the 200 metre from the exit mark after being crawling for the previous 20 minutes.
Much to my surprise the guard took my details and told me that I would be summonsed and have to appear in court for this seemingly minor offence. I thought I might get away with a warning or an on the spot fine at the worst.
I drive a company car so am a bit concerned about the repercussions. Can anyone advise, will I end up before the judge, should I get solicitor etc?

gibo_ie

the law is the law and if you rear ended someone pulling off where they are supposed to its your fault. yeah it might have been sensible to do what you did but illegal all the same.
probably just a fine, until the new penalty points gets kicked in then it would be 2 points!!

Sponge Bob

Hard shoulders are for stopping not for driving , just plead guilty and grovel .

seamus

You'll probably get summoned for careless driving. You essentially broke two laws - driving in the hard shoulder and overtaking on the left (though that will probably be overlooked since you were doing it with valid reason).

This is not a pointable offence yet, lucky you. I'd say have a chat with a solicitor, but you probably don't need one for court. Just answer when your name is called, accept that you were wrong, and you should get off with a fine.

Saruman

Maybe there is some legal loophole where by you were FORCED to use the hard shoulder due to the fact the traffic was at a standstill and instead of trying to help ease congestion, the guards saw fit to nab people for an easy fine!!

Been there done that.. its a bitch.. i was fined (before penalty points) years ago for pulling into my off ramp on the N4 to palmerstown by the foot bridge.. its a bus lane.. i only exited early by about a metre or two... i could not believe it!! Guard was an ass...

Whats the story with "overtaking on the left" anyway? Does that mean if some ass is crawling in the right lane on the motorway and im in the left doing the speed limit that i can not go past him and have to slow down to the same speed as them? That sounds very stupid.

menance

Thanks for advice, any opinions on whether I should inform my company, or will they be notified as its a company car. The Guard said the summons would be posted to my house..

BrianD3

Glad to hear that the Gardai are enforcing this. It is highly annoying for law abiding drivers to have to force their way into the left turn lane because a crowd of eejits have moved into the hard shoulder/bus lane 5, 10, 100, 500 or whatever metres before it became a left turn lane. It's never just one driver either - once one driver moves into HS/bus lane to skip the queue, others will follow, maybe because they're afraid of having to force their way in further up the road.

The gardai have to take a hard line to stop this as even if 10% of drivers break this law it causes hassle for many others.

seamus

Saruman wrote:

Whats the story with "overtaking on the left" anyway? Does that mean if some ass is crawling in the right lane on the motorway and im in the left doing the speed limit that i can not go past him and have to slow down to the same speed as them? That sounds very stupid.

It's in the rules of the road....

You may only overtake on the left:
1. If you are turning left a shirt distance ahead and have signalled your intention
2. If the driver ahead is turning right a short distance ahead and has moved out and signalled his intention
3. If the traffic is moving in queues and the traffic in the lane on your right is moving slower than the traffic in your lane.

I shouldn't really have to tell you these tbh...

robfitz

At the moment you can't get any penalty points for this, though if I've read the legislation correctly the maximum fine is 800 euro for the first offence.

Road Traffic (Traffic and Parking) Regulations, 1997
...
Rules for Traffic on Motorways
33. (1) A driver on a motorway shall not—
( a ) drive a vehicle against the direction of traffic flow;
( b ) drive a vehicle on or across any part of the motorway which is not a carriageway;
( c ) stop or park a vehicle on any part of a motorway;
( d ) drive a vehicle of a class for which an ordinary speed limit of not more than 50 mph is prescribed by regulations under section 44(1) of the Road Traffic Act, 1961 in the traffic lane nearest the right hand edge of a carriageway having more than one traffic lane except where it is necessary to proceed in that lane due to an obstruction or because another lane or lanes is or are for the time being closed to traffic.
...

ROAD TRAFFIC ACT, 1961 SECTION 102, General penalty.
ROAD TRAFFIC ACT, 2002 SECTION 23, Increase of certain penalties.

MrSinn

Sponge Bob wrote:

Hard shoulders are for stopping not for driving , just plead guilty and grovel .

Correct and right!But you already know this dont you!?
So what did you learn today?

Random

Dam right you got caught. Go in, say sorry, pay the fine.

Turner

Summons-able yes. very much so and for good reason.

Driving on the hard shoulder is extremely dangerous and causes numerous accidents. This is due to the way people tend to drive in the hard shoulder, Generally at speed and not paying attention to the ststionary or slow moving lane next to them. All they are concerned with is that everybody thinks they are turning left at the next junction. In fact I find drivers dont like to look at the lane of traffic they are undertaking, kind of if I cant see them they cant see me.

People in the slow moving or stopped lane see people driving in the hard shoulder and decide to do the same pulling onto it without making sure its clear.

Result is a big accident probably with injury, increased traffic congestion as a result causing more people to use the hard shoulder, and emergency services vehicles unable to get to accident as the hard shoulder is blocked.

Both criminal and civil proceeding that will go on for months sometimes even the next 3 or 4 years.

Fairplay to the cops but most people will say have they nothin better to be doin like be out catchin rapists and the likes.

Sleipnir

Saruman wrote:

Maybe there is some legal loophole where by you were FORCED to use the hard shoulder due to the fact the traffic was at a standstill and instead of trying to help ease congestion

"I was not, for one second, thinking that I could just skip by these law-abiding citizens patiently for their turn. I was easing congestion Your Honour. All these all idiots cause it, and I clear it by driving down the hard shoulder. You should thank me for being so considerate"

Nevyn

And that is a good way to get done for contempt and get a bigger fine.

BrianD

Saruman wrote:

Maybe there is some legal loophole where by you were FORCED to use the hard shoulder due to the fact the traffic was at a standstill and instead of trying to help ease congestion, the guards saw fit to nab people for an easy fine!!

Been there done that.. its a bitch.. i was fined (before penalty points) years ago for pulling into my off ramp on the N4 to palmerstown by the foot bridge.. its a bus lane.. i only exited early by about a metre or two... i could not believe it!! Guard was an ass...

He wasn't forced to break the law it was simply his own impatience. I'd take the fine and go. Go to the court - the Garda may not turn up and the charge will be dismissed. Might be your lucky day!

Whats the story with "overtaking on the left" anyway? Does that mean if some ass is crawling in the right lane on the motorway and im in the left doing the speed limit that i can not go past him and have to slow down to the same speed as them? That sounds very stupid.

Know how you feel. They need to have a motorway education programme in this country - keep left unless overtaking.

jd

While they're at it the cops should summons those idiots who stop on the hard shoulder to make/receive a mobile call.

Random

At least they're stopping.

corktina

can understand why you did it and sympathise to an extent but it IS dangerous as is the practise of doing the same in Bus Lanes...i have lost count how many times I have nearly come to grief in my truck when turning left at Newlands Cross for Tallaght (at the correct spot) and some eejit zips past me in the bus lane....

OMcGovern

Have to say you get no sympathy from me either.... in the past I've come off the M50 at the N4 exit, and I had to give way to idiots on the hard shoulder.

But I will give you this good news.... cos you cheered me up :-)

... the Guards/Courts have no reason to contact your company / workplace, since they have identified you as the driver.

If you had driven off, and the Guards only had the reg, then they would've contacted your company. I learnt this the hard way... ( as a victim )

A few years ago an Audi forced me to take serious evasive action once.
He checked to see that we didn't actually collide, then drove off.
I reported him to the Guards, but because it was a company car, and the company refused to give the driver/employees name, he got away with a dangerous driving conviction. Since the Guards have your name, they don't need to contact your company.

Saruman

I guess some people do not understand sarcasm

jd

ciaranfo wrote:

At least they're stopping.

Well maybe I'm <shudder> getting old </shudder> , but that kind of nonsense is not tolerated in other countries..

jd

This thread reminds me of something that happened a few weeks ago..
I was coming up from Wexford to Dublin and on the Arklow By-pass. Next thing I see is a cyclist on the hard shoulder ahead. All fine and well, but he is approaching a grade separated junction. I mean this is nuts, surely dual carriageways built to virtually motorway standard should not have cyclists/pedestirans allowed with these kind of intersections..

Mexicola

jd wrote:

While they're at it the cops should summons those idiots who stop on the hard shoulder to make/receive a mobile call.

Thats what its for you muppet. I am sick and tired of seeing every second car driver holding a mobile phone to their ear.

corktina

Mexicola wrote:

Thats what its for you muppet. I am sick and tired of seeing every second car driver holding a mobile phone to their ear.

not on a Motorway it isnt...it is more dangerous to stop than to use the blasted phone-of -the -devil in the first place.....

Blub2k4

MrSinn wrote:

Correct and right!But you already know this dont you!?
So what did you learn today?

So when is a driver supposed to learn this? See people like yourself and the original poster are the reason we have such high insurances and the reason our drivers are so bad. It's a rule of the road and a basic prerequisite to obtaining a license or driving a car, not something to be smart and glib about really, but then you knew that already didn't you?

jd

Mexicola wrote:

Thats what its for you muppet. I am sick and tired of seeing every second car driver holding a mobile phone to their ear.

Not on a motorway, sunshine..He should ignore the mobile..

Saruman

seamus wrote:

It's in the rules of the road....

You may only overtake on the left:
1. If you are turning left a shirt distance ahead and have signalled your intention
2. If the driver ahead is turning right a short distance ahead and has moved out and signalled his intention
3. If the traffic is moving in queues and the traffic in the lane on your right is moving slower than the traffic in your lane.

I shouldn't really have to tell you these tbh...

I take my hat off to you that you knew all these without having to cut and paste....:D
Regardless i was not asking if its illegal to overtake on the left. I know that and im sure most people do.
My question had a point leading up to it... And i wanted to clarify.

By point 3 though it would seem its perfectly legal to overtake on the left if the cars in the right have lane are driving slower.. unless of course you are in the right hand lane and then move into the left to get past them.

Anyway this is what i was going to lead up to. There seems to be a class of drivers for who its perfectly legal to overtake on the left all the time.. I wonder is there in fact a by law supporting this or is it in fact illegal? I assume its covered but you never know with some of our laws.. the loopholes are massive in some cases.

Anyway Buses and Taxis!!! They have their own little lane (not as wide even as ordinary lanes in most cases) and they fly past traffic (sometimes exceeding the speed limit like taxis on the N32) all while in a lane left of the main traffic. So is there a by law supporting this as it was clearly not in the list Seamus posted.

Mexicola

jd wrote:

Not on a motorway, sunshine..He should ignore the mobile..

Yes you are quite correct jd. I also retract my 'muppet' statement - I am not a morning person

robfitz

Saruman wrote:

There seems to be a class of drivers for who its perfectly legal to overtake on the left all the time.. I wonder is there in fact a by law supporting this or is it in fact illegal?

Although (5)(c) allows for overtaking slow vehicles on the left, the general opinon is that it is dangerous to do this by using the hardshoulder so you get charged with (1).

Road Traffic (Traffic and Parking) Regulations, 1997
...
Overtaking
10. (1) A driver shall not overtake, or attempt to overtake, if to do so would endanger, or cause inconvenience to, any other person.
(2) A driver shall not overtake, or attempt to overtake, unless the roadway ahead of the driver—
( a ) is free from approaching traffic, pedestrians and any obstruction, and
( b ) is sufficiently long and wide to permit the overtaking to be completed without danger or inconvenience to other traffic or pedestrians.
(3) A driver shall not overtake, or attempt to overtake, on a stretch of roadway on which traffic sign number RUS 014 [no overtaking] has been provided.
(4) Subject to the provisions of sub-article (5), a driver shall overtake on the right and shall not move in towards the left until it is safe to do so.
(5) A driver may only overtake on the left—
( a ) where the driver of the vehicle about to be overtaken has signalled an intention to turn to the right and the driver of the overtaking vehicle intends, after overtaking, to go straight ahead or to turn to the left,
( b ) where the driver of the overtaking vehicle intends, after overtaking, to turn left at the next road junction and has signalled this intention,
( c ) in slow moving traffic, when vehicles in the traffic lane on the driver's right are moving more slowly than the overtaking vehicle.
...

Seth Brundle

menance wrote:

Yesterday evening at peak traffic hour at 6pm, traffic was backed up so I decided to take my exit 200 metres before I should have on the hard shoulder, unfortunately there were guards at the exist stopping people with the same idea.I took it at the 200 metre from the exit mark after being crawling for the previous 20 minutes.
Much to my surprise the guard took my details and told me that I would be summonsed and have to appear in court for this seemingly minor offence. I thought I might get away with a warning or an on the spot fine at the worst.
I drive a company car so am a bit concerned about the repercussions. Can anyone advise, will I end up before the judge, should I get solicitor etc?

Did you get the gardas name as Id like to buy them a pint!
Why did you think you could do this? The amount of times I have had to wait for muppets like yourself before I could exit a motorway escapes me.
What are you being summonsed for? Dangerous driving?
Strangely it seems to happen mostly around the N4 and N7 junctions. The gardai also seem to occasionally grab drivers who try to enter the motorway by crossing the white traffic island and avoiding the merge lane - a practice that also slows down traffic.

corktina

when i join the M50 going south at the red cow, i often notice cars nip across the reservation and join the main drag....usually a waste of time as I pass them and about 20 other cars by sticking to the slip road to the very end.....whats the point?

MrPudding

corktina wrote:

when i join the M50 going south at the red cow, i often notice cars nip across the reservation and join the main drag....usually a waste of time as I pass them and about 20 other cars by sticking to the slip road to the very end.....whats the point?

Happened to me the other day joining the M50 at Lucan. Muppets driving over the chevrons as soon as they could to join standstill traffic. I just continued up the filter lane until the end where traffic was moving freely again. Muppets.

MrP

DubTony

A fine and a slap on the wrist is not enough. It should be a bloody hanging offence. A couple of months ago I sat in traffic on the N81 between Spawell roundabout and the M50 interchange. A car came past on my left in the bus lane (this used to be a hard shoulder) as another in front of me pulled into the Texaco garage. At this point on the road the bus lane ends and has a Yield sign on an island to ensure that buses give way to traffic on the main road, and so that traffic pulling off the road has right of way to enter the garage. It was obvious that the idiot in the bus lane had not intended to slow down to even check for a car crossing his path. Luckily for him and the driver and passengers (2 kids) of the other car (a Micra) he managed to slow down just enough that the Micra got out of his way. At the speed he was going, there is no doubt he'd have done some serious damage to both car and occupants. This is a dangerous and stupid practice.

To the OP, I hope the judge decides to make an example of you.

mackerski

Saruman wrote:

By point 3 though it would seem its perfectly legal to overtake on the left if the cars in the right have lane are driving slower.. unless of course you are in the right hand lane and then move into the left to get past them.

No - if this were the case, it would always be legal to left-overtake. The key to this riddle (and it's not a difficult one to grasp) is the notion of slow/queuing traffic. In the case of the OP's offence, for instance, it appears that it took place precisely because the lane 1 traffic was stop/go. This makes his left-overtaking legal (apart from the fact that he had no business on the hard shoulder). He was further entitled to left-overtake, since he was turning left ahead, assuming he had indicated that intention.

I can't muster up much sympathy here either - as others have said, the presence of cars already using the shoulder as a real lane makes leaving the motorway at the designated spot really really dangerous.

Dermot

Saruman

kbannon wrote:

Strangely it seems to happen mostly around the N4 and N7 junctions. The gardai also seem to occasionally grab drivers who try to enter the motorway by crossing the white traffic island and avoiding the merge lane - a practice that also slows down traffic.

As was mentioned... people are idiots if they think crossing the island is quicker... smart people stay in the filter to the end and merge in turn.. bypassing all the cars behind

Oh and the people heading northbound coming off at the N7 junction are not in the hard shoulder. thats a 3rd lane leading up to the red cow. Just like southbound from tallaght to firhouse. Actually these are great as you have 3 lanes in these sections.

I think they should seperate the lanes at exits so if you are not in your exit say 500 metres beforehand then there is a barrier preventing you from jamming on the breaks and swinging in at the last second to bypass other traffic. This has been used in other EU countries to great effect. Prevents a lot of "phantom" traffic jams...

Tarabuses

Saruman wrote:

Anyway Buses and Taxis!!! They have their own little lane (not as wide even as ordinary lanes in most cases) and they fly past traffic (sometimes exceeding the speed limit like taxis on the N32) all while in a lane left of the main traffic. So is there a by law supporting this as it was clearly not in the list Seamus posted.

The Rules of the Road doesn't know about bus lanes but I am sure they have a legal basis.

Seth Brundle

Saruman wrote:

Anyway Buses and Taxis!!! They have their own little lane (not as wide even as ordinary lanes in most cases) and they fly past traffic (sometimes exceeding the speed limit like taxis on the N32) all while in a lane left of the main traffic. So is there a by law supporting this as it was clearly not in the list Seamus posted.

busses and taxis can go faster than normal traffic as per Seamus' point #3.

Tarabuses wrote:

The Rules of the Road doesn't know about bus lanes but I am sure they have a legal basis.

Bus lanes are mentioned in the ROTR - they even get some pictures - see pgs 35 & 36

Ginger83

To state you jumped onto the hard shoulder to ease congestion on the other lanes is really laughable. There were three laws broken, overtaking on the left, driving on the hard shoulder and crossing a full continuous line.
I see these impatient drivers every day of the week jumping to early onto slip roads to come down the slip road on the far side of the roundabout and beat maybe 20-30 cars. Can you tell me what you would have said to your company if a car at the entrance to the exit lane pulled onto it and you ended up in the back of it? I dont think you would have much of an argument but only wonder how much it was going to cost you!!!