McCartney Murder - One Year On

Nuttzz

12 Months ago today Robert McCartney was murdered by elements of the IRA and it was covered up SF/IRA.

Will the McCartney sisters see justice for their brother?

I think that SF/IRA were waiting for the OTR laws to go through before the murderers were handed up/over/turned themselves in

Since this murder we have had to listen to SF/IRA tell us about their brave actions decommissioning weapons, how about some brave actions and ending the SF/IRA cover up of the murder of this man?

Sand

The IRA has gone away dont you know. Are you seriously expecting people to believe that non-existent organisations that arent still involved in crime are protecting murderers from prosecution? Or driving the McCartneys out of their homes?

I think we no longer need to say SFIRA can get away with murder, they just have.

Pal

Sand wrote:

The IRA has gone away dont you know.

You better tell the CAB. They don't know that.

Mighty_Mouse

Robert McCartney was murdered by elements of the IRA

Just a point on the way that's phrased.
Does anyone believe that this murder was an IRA-sanctioned "hit" or a fight between a few hard-core republicans that got out of hand?
I don't see how even the IRA can stop fights in pubs.

and it was covered up SF/IRA

What do you mean by this exactly? Didn't the family sit in the front row of the Ard Fheis?
Wasn't SF the first people to condem it and ask people to cooperate ?

arent still involved in crime are protecting murderers from prosecution?

If we could even get your theory on how this is possible, it would be great. FFS didn't the RA threaten to kill'em. Why would they now be protecting them?

Anyways the IRA isn't around anymore to protect family's such as the McCartneys.

Cork

Mighty_Mouse wrote:

Anyways the IRA isn't around anymore to protect family's such as the McCartneys.

What protection?

You forgot to mention the McConvilles.

But the IRA is still around up to criminality and information gathering.

And Yes, their political wing has questions to answer.

Gardaí probe IRA link to €100m property empire.

I wish the Criminal Assets Bereau and the Garda well in their investigation.

It is about time that Provo criminality was tackled.

SF has also questions to answer on the murder of Joseph Rafferty.

casanova_kid

Mighty_Mouse wrote:

Just a point on the way that's phrased.
Does anyone believe that this murder was an IRA-sanctioned "hit" or a fight between a few hard-core republicans that got out of hand?
I don't see how even the IRA can stop fights in pubs.

What do you mean by this exactly? Didn't the family sit in the front row of the Ard Fheis?
Wasn't SF the first people to condem it and ask people to cooperate ?
If we could even get your theory on how this is possible, it would be great. FFS didn't the RA threaten to kill'em. Why would they now be protecting them?

Anyways the IRA isn't around anymore to protect family's such as the McCartneys.

You ask how can the IRA stop fights in pubs? That is besides the point, the fact that justice has not been served in this murder case is because of an IRA clean up job. If it was just an ordinary pub fight, why the cover up?

You also say that the IRA aren't around anymore to protect family's such as the McCartneys, I hope that you are being ironic because this is a ludricous statement. Robert McCartney was killed by members of the IRA, that hardly is what I call protecting him.

mike65

Mighty Mouse does'nt do irony when it comes to the provos.

I don't see anyone getting done for his murder now. The locals are happy enough to be complicit, they've lived with the crime for a year now after all. Its just 'background' noise.

Mike.

A Dub in Glasgo

mike65 wrote:

Its just 'background' noise.

.

Just like a lot of murders in Ireland

Sand

Just like a lot of murders in Ireland

Yeah, reminds me of that other murder where a host of PDs and their election workers and politicians butchered two men in cold blood, refused to co-operate with the investigation, refused to urge others to co-operate with the investigation, lied or wasted police time in grudging interviews, removed evidence from a crime scene, and when panicked by unprecedented media interest tried to pretend they gave a damn, offering to murder some scapegoats. It soon became apparent they neednt have worried as their support held rock solid at 10%. The family that had bothered them was exiled from the area and a few scapegoats thrown to the police, which was a better deal for them than getting murdered.

Hmm, something wrong with that. Cant have happened to the PDs, they dont get 10% support, let alone after murdering people. In fact TBH, I cant think of a single legitimate political party that could conceivably cover up a murder and poll 10% support.

Just like a lot of murders Glasgo? Tell me, Id appreciate an honest answer - do you really believe that, or are you willing to put your political loyalities over your own common sense?

A Dub in Glasgo

Sand wrote:

Yeah, reminds me of that other murder where a host of PDs and their election workers and politicians butchered two men in cold blood, refused to co-operate with the investigation, refused to urge others to co-operate with the investigation, lied or wasted police time in grudging interviews, removed evidence from a crime scene, and when panicked by unprecedented media interest tried to pretend they gave a damn, offering to murder some scapegoats. It soon became apparent they neednt have worried as their support held rock solid at 10%. The family that had bothered them was exiled from the area and a few scapegoats thrown to the police, which was a better deal for them than getting murdered.

Hmm, something wrong with that. Cant have happened to the PDs, they dont get 10% support, let alone after murdering people. In fact TBH, I cant think of a single legitimate political party that could conceivably cover up a murder and poll 10% support.

Just like a lot of murders Glasgo? Tell me, Id appreciate an honest answer - do you really believe that, or are you willing to put your political loyalities over your own common sense?

You should at least try read the post before going off on one, it's better that way.

Zebra3

How many innocent people have the British government been responsible for killing in the last twevle months? And how many people have the Americans (with the collusion of the Irish government) killed since then?

What happened in Belfast was wrong, but the situation is being abused by governments who need it in the spotlight to take attention away from their own murderous deeds.

mike65

That is arrant nonsense. Even indymedia whores would'nt say that (well actually some of them would).

Mike.

LostinBlanch

Cork wrote:

What protection?

You forgot to mention the McConvilles.

But the IRA is still around up to criminality and information gathering.

And Yes, their political wing has questions to answer.

Gardaí probe IRA link to €100m property empire.

I wish the Criminal Assets Bereau and the Garda well in their investigation.

It is about time that Provo criminality was tackled.

SF has also questions to answer on the murder of Joseph Rafferty.

I've never agreed with Cork before.:eek:

Still there's a first time for everything. When he right he's right, and he's right here.

Sand

You should at least try read the post before going off on one, it's better that way.

What part of you trying to make this sound like some ordinary run of the mill murder didnt I get?

How many innocent people have the British government been responsible for killing in the last twevle months? And how many people have the Americans (with the collusion of the Irish government) killed since then?

Id almost ask WTF the Iraq war has to do with McCartneys murder and the cover up but Im afraid someone would actually go to the bother of trying to link them.

casanova_kid

Zebra3 wrote:

How many innocent people have the British government been responsible for killing in the last twevle months? And how many people have the Americans (with the collusion of the Irish government) killed since then?

What happened in Belfast was wrong, but the situation is being abused by governments who need it in the spotlight to take attention away from their own murderous deeds.

I don't see the link, you're being sensationalist.

Zebra3

The British government are using the murder of Robert McCartney to (metaphorically) beat SF with while being up to their necks in Iraqi blood.

You don't see the link? :rolleyes: Or the hypocrisy? :rolleyes:

Zebra3

Zebra3 wrote:

The British government are using the murder of Robert McCartney to (metaphorically) beat SF with while being up to their necks in Iraqi blood.

You don't see the link? :rolleyes: Or the hypocrisy? :rolleyes:

Where are the British government using Robert McCartneys murder specefically?

casanova_kid

Zebra3 wrote:

The British government are using the murder of Robert McCartney to (metaphorically) beat SF with while being up to their necks in Iraqi blood.

You don't see the link? :rolleyes: Or the hypocrisy? :rolleyes:

If you haven't noticed, there's been little or no press in Britain about the McCartney murder. Are you suggesting that the IRA cover up is acceptable because the British are at war in Iraq? Your sense of justice is shoddy and incomprehensible.

Zebra3

casanova_kid wrote:

If you haven't noticed, there's been little or no press in Britain about the McCartney murder.

Not true. Ever watch Sky News? Read The Guardian?

casanova_kid wrote:

Are you suggesting that the IRA cover up is acceptable because the British are at war in Iraq? .

No. Where did I say/imply that?

casanova_kid wrote:

Your sense of justice is shoddy and incomprehensible.

How so? I've already posted (post #11?) that the McCartney murder was wrong, but I've also said that there are some (like our govt) who are happy to use his murder to deflect away fom their own murderous and thieving collaborations. And that is disgusting. :mad:

Nuttzz

radio wrote:

hmmm .. the OP has so many assumptions in it its hard to know where to start.

1) I dont think you'll find a republican who isnt disgusted by the McCartney murder. It was sickening.

so sickened that they wont give statements to police

radio wrote:

2) Was it ordered by the IRA or was it people who were in the IRA acting to their own agenda. you assume it was the IRA. How do you prove that?

green m&m, red m&m there all the same

radio wrote:

3) Who is SF/IRA? Really. I just want someone to find me documentation to prove this organisation exists. I assume you mean Sinn Fein and the IRA, but looking at your post and looking at reality - i cant see how things match up.

Gerry Adams of the IRA army council is president of sinn fein, same coin different sides

radio wrote:

4) If Sinn Fein weren't involved in the peace process where would we be? dont even start with the notion that there wouldnt have been armed resistance, because it started before provisional sinn fein ever existed. They have done a lot in recent years to help right the wrongs that have been carried out (colelctively over the past century) in all our names. If more parties inthenorth and within both governments had the same zeal and drive towards finding a solution then we'd be grand.

shinners actions for the last 30 years were not done in my name

radio wrote:

as it is, 'information gathering (like what? collecting peoples names?) is now a criminal offence. hope they never catch me taking down someones phone number. Its obvious to anyone with a head on their shoulders that the IRA has disarmed, but they'll be keeping a close eye on everything - including security people and places - until they know for certain that no-one restarts the whole war all over again. not to do so would be pretty foolish.

why do they need to gather names???

radio wrote:

Then CAB are out on their searchs again. I'd find at least some concrete evidence on exactly what they've found so far, but as it is its the standard sensational news headline with very very little detail. ties in very well though with the battle to keep SF from doing well in the elections though eh? Is that a concidence? Must be, otherwise it would show that someone somewhere on the anti republican end of the stick hasnt completely stopped their war against republicans. Even the british accidentally finding their own spy in SF (could this have been the real steaknife?) was nicely turned around.

aaahh poor SF, the eternal martyrs

radio wrote:

I dunno. Too many people are either purposefully ignoring whats *really* happening within the peace process or else they just dont want to know. irks the crap out of me.

so what's really happening? why is this murder covered up?

ghostdancer

Nuttzz wrote:

green m&m, red m&m there all the same

what a great question dodging technique. they're not the same at all. by that reckoning, if i work for Dunnes Stores, and I murder someone on my lunch break, that equates to Dunnes Stores murdering someone, great logic there....

Nuttzz wrote:

Gerry Adams of the IRA army council is president of sinn fein, same coin different sides

gerry adams isn't on the IRA army council, according to intelligence provided by both governments. perhaps you'd like to show us your proof of this?

GypsumFantastic

The reality is that if only SF/IRA had stuck to killing Prods then the McCartneys and Chappaquiddick Kennedy wouldn't have bothered. As soon as they killed one of their own then SF/IRA became a problem.

GypsumFantastic

radio wrote:

that post goes way above my head. SF/IRA? that mystical grouping again that NO-ONE has shown any evidence about its existance. Sinn Fein dont run around killing people, unless of course you can prove that as an organisation, they do. links please.

Please don't patronise me, son.

radio

fact a) Im not your son.
fact b) its not patrionisation. Just show me how you can prove who this SF/IRA is and how Sinn Fein as a political party kill people. Thats part of the charter in posting is it not?

Besides, im probably twice your age.

Nuttzz

do you give out about the brits planting spies in SF? Thats as bad, but no-one calls them criminals.

no its not bad, it is the correct thing to do, the Uk govenrment has a moral obligation to keep an eye on terrorists and terrorist supporters, if that means that some shinners are willing to take the "queens shilling" then so be it. You cant blame me, the governments or anyone else if you have "touts" in your organisation.

As for Gerry Adams, it think that Ed Maloneys book deals with that issue quite conclusively

the work they've done in the peace process?

ahh sure arent they great, they found the bullet and the bomb wasnt working so they made a strategic change in policy


Anyway this has noting to do with the FACT that Robert McCarthney was murdered, the FACT that a bar full of nationalist saw nothing, the FACT that this murder, carried out by members of the IRA, was covered up by members of the IRA or the FACT that intimidation by republicans drove the McCartney family out of the short strand.

GypsumFantastic

radio wrote:

its not patrionisation. Just show me how you can prove who this SF/IRA is and how Sinn Fein as a political party kill people. Thats part of the charter in posting is it not?

Besides, im probably twice your age.

Sadly, then, your wisdom has not matured with the years. Stop behaving like some 15-year-old Republican chav who thinks he's been a smart-alec and grow up, eh?

Nuttzz

radio wrote:

FACT - I can never see the points you are making.

fine if you dont want to see it

radio wrote:

Ive asked you twice so far - what cover-up? Why was it a cover up and not time spent working out exactly what had happened, considering the IRA didnt actually murder anyone. Also, if the murder was streets away from the pub, how could a pub full of people see it? if the brits can have spies then so can everyone else (unless you have double standards, and in a democracy you cant) and finally - explain what 'your' organisation mean? I dont have an organisation.

that no witnesses saw anything? that they were all in the toilet? that the toilet was nicknamed the tardis? that the CCTV recordings outside the bar disappeared?

but so what? enjoy your little world where SF and the IRA are the champions of peace and the Irish people......

ghostdancer

GypsumFantastic wrote:

The reality is that if only SF/IRA had stuck to killing Prods then the McCartneys and Chappaquiddick Kennedy wouldn't have bothered. As soon as they killed one of their own then SF/IRA became a problem.

neither Sinn Féin nor the IRA killed Robert McCartney.

ghostdancer

Nuttzz wrote:

As for Gerry Adams, it think that Ed Maloneys book deals with that issue quite conclusively

yes, and ed moloneys books were written along time ago. Gerry Adams isn't on the army council, according to the same intelligence that alleges IRA involvement in the McCartney coverup. try get your facts right before you even attempt to make a point. glad to see the anti-Nationalists guilty of the exact same selective truths and sources they accuse Nationalists of being guilty of.

Nuttzz

so how do you know adams isnt on the army council?

well the McCartney sisters allege that the IRA is covering up the murder, unless you now believe that they are british agents...

Sand

fact b) its not patrionisation. Just show me how you can prove who this SF/IRA is and how Sinn Fein as a political party kill people. Thats part of the charter in posting is it not?

Quick question - did you delete your other posts? I can see them quoted, but they seem to be gone?

Secondly, it is patronising to fake confusion at the mention of SFIRA. I dont know how long youve been lurking around the politics board but the issue has been discussed at lenth and hammered home, even to the people who think Politics is full of West Brits or who used to report mention of SIFRA as a bad post to moderators - a function usually reserved for harrassment, personal attacks and the like.

If you actually are open minded and just have managed to exist without knowing SF are just the IRAs political front, then do a search and go through the old threads. Irish1 is a good search variable as he championed the "never heard of SFIRA" thinking.

If not, and you actually are being patronising, then dont bother. Itd be waste of your time. But please dont patronise people with this "Huh, SFIRA? Who are they?" crap.

ghostdancer

Nuttzz wrote:

so how do you know adams isnt on the army council?

well the McCartney sisters allege that the IRA is covering up the murder, unless you now believe that they are british agents...

well if you'd bothered reading my post you'd know my reasons for that.

i don't see what kind of relevance that second comment has. i'm well aware of what they're alleging, and no, i don't believe they're british agents, thanks for that ridiculous commment.

Mighty_Mouse

Short and all as the thread is, I just don't have the interest to read it all. Did someone mention M&M's somewhere!!

The British government are using the murder of Robert McCartney to (metaphorically) beat SF

Jasus. Dont know about that but the sight of Unionists bleeding heart speeches for the plight of the McCartneys was slightly discomforting.

As for Gerry Adams, it think that Ed Maloneys book deals with that issue quite conclusively

Did it? Watch out for that word conslusively ....... tends to make out your stating FACT!. Anyways, I don't see the issue whether he was or wasn't.

Anyway this has noting to do with the FACT that Robert McCarthney was murdered, the FACT that a bar full of nationalist saw nothing, the FACT that this murder, carried out by members of the IRA, was covered up by members of the IRA or the FACT that intimidation by republicans drove the McCartney family out of the short strand.

I still don't see what all this has to do with SF.
Anyways the IRA no longer exists to give instructions to its members on whether they should or should not intimidate their neighbours!!

Now if only there was a police force republican/catholics/nationalists could trust currently in place as planned in the GFA <<for the scenario when the IRA folds up its tents.>>

that no witnesses saw anything?

Has happend in pubs all over Dublin and other major cities. I don't see what has to do with SF and republicanism in general.

same intelligence that alleges IRA involvement in the McCartney coverup.

ah now!! in fairness, it's fairly well accepted that it was IRA boys that killed Mr. McCartney!!! ..............<<not in much of a position to be telling people to check their facts if you ask me>>

If you actually are open minded and just have managed to exist without knowing SF are just the IRAs political front

Alright Sand, flip that open-minded comment back on yerself.
Would you be open-minded enough to accept that SF isn't just a political front for the IRA.
ie... that SF main objective is renunificatioin through peaceful means. Would you at least accept that the progress made in REpublicans in moving to a peaceful means has be pretty impressive. From "not a bullet", "tiochfaidh...." to the IRA is over, guns decommissioned etc etc .

I suppose a little balance in your pure hatred would be nice.

A Dub in Glasgo

Mighty_Mouse wrote:

I suppose a little balance in your pure hatred would be nice.

Hang on, we cannot have mass hysteria breaking out on boards if that comes to pass :eek:

Cork

ghostdancer wrote:

neither Sinn Féin nor the IRA killed Robert McCartney.

So, they were not involved in either the cover up or intimidation?

Would you at least accept that the progress made in REpublicans in moving to a peaceful means has be pretty impressive. From "not a bullet", "tiochfaidh...." to the IRA is over, guns decommissioned etc etc .

The IRA are a criminal and illegal organisation that have not gone away.

SF/IRA have not made enough progress unfortunately.

Mighty_Mouse

Mighty_Mouse wrote:

Would you be open-minded enough to accept that SF isn't just a political front for the IRA.

If you want to be coldly clinical about it? I'd imagine most people would think that but most people can also see a determined effort over the last number of years to present one as separate to the other.
Thats a big ask in terms of convincing as most people didnt come down in the last shower.

ie... that SF main objective is renunificatioin through peaceful means. Would you at least accept that the progress made in REpublicans in moving to a peaceful means has be pretty impressive. From "not a bullet", "tiochfaidh...." to the IRA is over, guns decommissioned etc etc .

Oh theres no doubt that they had a major internal convincing job to do amongst their own members to go this road.
But the writing was on the wall really in terms of the IRA campaign, with the U.S on their backs,it being historicallysuch a cauldron of financial support.

Terrorism which is what most people would describe the IRA's activities as, would not have promoted SF politically.
The IRA Going back to Terrorism in those peoples eyes would without a doubt put immense pressure on SF politically and probably wipe them out in the south.
So in that respect,its difficult not to dilute the kudos for the road they took to peace as on the one hand , you have to say yes Thank God for that but on the other hand politically they had no choice.

Cork

Mighty_Mouse wrote:

Anyways the IRA no longer exists to give instructions to its members on whether they should or should not intimidate their neighbours!!

Oh IRA members have discretion??

That surely gets SF/IRA off the hook.

Why does the IRA still exist?

When should we expect to see an end to IRA criminality?

Involvement in criminality must end before there is any political progress in the North.

Did Sf/IRA not suspend members in connection with the murder of Robert McCarney?

Have these individuals been re-admitted?

Sand

Alright Sand, flip that open-minded comment back on yerself.
Would you be open-minded enough to accept that SF isn't just a political front for the IRA.
ie... that SF main objective is renunificatioin through peaceful means. Would you at least accept that the progress made in REpublicans in moving to a peaceful means has be pretty impressive. From "not a bullet", "tiochfaidh...." to the IRA is over, guns decommissioned etc etc .

I suppose a little balance in your pure hatred would be nice.

Id be happy to entertain that notion if there was evidence to support it. I didnt just wake up one day and think badly of SFIRA. Years upon years of watching Adams refuse to condemn atrocities whilst harping on about any imagined slights to him or his wears you down.

Your argument for them being seperate is that SF allegedly pursues a peace strategy - as I understand it, that is the IRAs approved strategy. Theyve supposedly decommissioned and made public statements to that effect so if anything it highlights the fact its the same organisation with two different masks.

The progress made by the Provos in moving towards peaceful means is where they agreed to put aside the theological provo ****e about violence being the only solution, agreed to tone down the murdering of people and actually listened to the likes of John Hume who took the political risks of extending a hand to them. TBH, them doing whats expected of any law abiding group or individual isnt exactly an occassion for casting commemorative medals. Its people like John Hume who deserve plaudits, but hes already getting written out of the history books.

And SFIRA havent helped by breaking ceasefires, engaging in low intensity murders - like McCartneys - and punishment beatings, organised crime and repeated espionage which has contributed to the poisonous atmosphere in the North where any level of trust that existed at the signing of the GFA has long since vanished.

The peace proccess is over. The likes of the DUP arent going to get done like Trimble was done when he made the leap. And theres no grassroots Unionist push to change that. All that can be done from here is for SFIRA to spend the next 10-15 years moving towards normal democratic standards, disbanding the IRA and completely seperating itself -without confusion as in the latest IMC report - from criminal or subversive activity. This is proving unlikely as people seem more willing to lower standards than to ask SFIRA to meet them.

And no, they wouldnt deserve a round of applause for meeting the same standards as everyone else.

Cork

Sand wrote:

disbanding the IRA and completely seperating itself -without confusion as in the latest IMC report - from criminal or subversive activity. This is proving unlikely as people seem more willing to lower standards than to ask SFIRA to meet them.

The IRA is now itself the problem in holding up the Peace Process.

What is the SF leadership doing with regards to IRA criminality?

Precious little.

A Dub in Glasgo

Sand wrote:

The peace proccess is over.

A lot of people would be very glad with that as it means they can say 'I told you so'. It ain't over yet.

Sand

A lot of people would be very glad with that as it means they can say 'I told you so'. It ain't over yet.

Ive already got plenty of grounds for saying "I told you so". I was told the DUP was gagging to do a deal in December 2004. Nope. I was told DUP would be gagging to do a deal after the last elections. Also nope. I was told the DUP would be gagging to do a deal after the IMC report. Again nope. In fact Ive heard a lot of overly optimistic predictions that have all proven to be wrong. I think its time for people to have a realistic appraisal of the current state of the peace proccess.

SFIRA cant return to terrorism at this stage, but its at least a decade and more away from becoming a legitimate political party, as opposed to a terrorist organisation. Currently it seems to think it can be both. The GFA is built on mutual trust. The rise of the DUP and SFIRA electorally has come from that trust being undermined, and the moderates who were seen to be hoodwinked by the other side (Trimbles UUP and the SDLP to a lesser extent) have been punished by the voters. For any deal to work, the DUP leadership would have to be able to trust SFIRA is not going to embarass them by either failing to live up to its commitments, or some job on the side. And no, rightly or wrongly no one is going to believe that any bank robbery, murder coverup or organised criminal enterprise carried out by SFIRA members is somehow wholly seperate to the organisation.

Hence, even one screwup by SFIRA would lead to another collapse of the institutions and the electoral slaughter of any DUP moderates who dared to hope they could trust SFIRA. So until you can feel 100% confident that no SFIRA members will get anything more serious than a drink driving conviction, no viable deal is possible. The other alternative is that SFIRA co-operates fully in criminal investigations with the PSNI if SFIRA members are involved in crime. The McCartney case has demonstrated that were a long, long, long way from that. If SFIRA say they cant trust the PSNI, why do they think the DUP trust them any farther?

If you were Paisley, would you rush to trust SFIRA after what happened to Trimble? Why should he? The chance for a deal has been squandered long ago. Its going to take another 10 years of consistent progress on the part of SFIRA before another deal is possible.

ghostdancer

Cork wrote:

So, they were not involved in either the cover up or intimidation?

allegedly they were yes, not that i ever claimed that they weren't. :rolleyes: