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Palestinians plump for Hamas...

  • 26-01-2006 2:56pm
    #1
    Posts: 0


    Well don't come crying to the rest of the world next time Israel sends in a few gunships, why don't you go to the clinic of your local friendly political representative and tell him to go try on a few bombs...

    While a tiny part of me thinks this might give any opportunity for a peaceful solution a shot in the arm, most of me thinks electing terrorists is not a hopeful development.


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Comments

  • Closed Accounts Posts: 2,485 ✭✭✭sovtek


    Hamas have a political wing as well as having organised charitable orgs. They pretty much mirror most modern resistance groups not unlike the ANC and Sinn Fein.
    Sharon's policies might very well have driven people to Hamas.
    Again the "west" is the bringer or democracy, except of course, when it doesn't suit us.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,301 ✭✭✭Snickers Man


    Well don't come crying to the rest of the world next time Israel sends in a few gunships, why don't you go to the clinic of your local friendly political representative and tell him to go try on a few bombs...

    While a tiny part of me thinks this might give any opportunity for a peaceful solution a shot in the arm, most of me thinks electing terrorists is not a hopeful development.

    I think the Arabs have long given up expecting us to cry for them. They look out for their own. And the Israeli tactic of demanding first and foremost that every Arab they negotiate with must be a Zionist policeman and that their first priority is to lock up their own fellow countrymen, leads inevitably to an erosion of what centre ground there is and a shift to extremism.

    What did the Israelis ever do to help Abbas other than demand of him that he send police in to shoot up his own refugee camps?

    They know the score. They want their scrap of land, they're prepared to fight for it; they're prepared to spend most of their lives in the army to pay for it. All that and they want our sympathy too?

    **** 'em.

    Likud/Sharon's new gang and Hamas deserve each other.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 17,575 ✭✭✭✭A Dub in Glasgo


    Well don't come crying to the rest of the world next time Israel sends in a few gunships

    Even if Isreal commits terrorist acts?


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 3,558 ✭✭✭netwhizkid


    Dubya was sounding his trumpet on Hamas this evening on the news. I guess regardless of where it is people will vote for change when they are been left in the lurch. Perhaps Hamas can deliver an Independent Palestine, lets hope they do, it solve a lot of the reasons why Muslims hate the west and Christianity so much.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 22,799 ✭✭✭✭Akrasia


    The palestinians have the right to vote for whoever they want. Isn't democracy wonderful. Now where are all those folk with their purple fingers?


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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 6 The Baler


    Sharon must be turning in his hospital bed!!! He pushed the military agenda, now he and the chosen people must adhere to the wishes of the Palestinian people. This event is the kick up the arse the right wingers of Likud deserve.

    Let the games start!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!:D


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 78 ✭✭Kilsally


    what is? The fact that Hamas stated that Israel does not have a right to exist?


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 3,494 ✭✭✭ronbyrne2005


    its amazing how the democracy the bush regime want to instill in muslim world so often delivers results that dont please them, ahmaddinijad in iran,hamas in free palestine,iran backed shiites in iraq, while the non democratic countries they back such as egypt and saudi arabia continue to please them generally.maybe bush and co will reconsider this democracy lark in the next few years as they hark after the dictators of the past that gave them sleep filled nights and relative security and srategic satisfaction such as the shah saddam etc.
    if the palestinians really want an escalation of the militancy then they are in for decades more oppression by the israelis many of whom are glad to see hamas elected as it gives them more legitimacy in their efforts to crush the palestinians.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 49 breandan


    Theres the old saying of be careful what you wish for as you might just get it!
    That came back to me today when thinking of Bush's desire for democracy int he Middle East.
    Of course he is right to want 'democracy' (although to me democracy is about much more than being allowed to vote but thats for another thread) but in the Middle East what does democracy actually mean?

    What if Bush were to somehow 'get rid' of the Syrian Regime?
    Well Mr Bush that regime is a Shi'ite sect while the majority of the population are Sunni whom strongly idenify with their Iraqi cousines (infact several tribes traditionally straddle both sides of the Syrian/Iraqi boarder) and its likely that a post Asad government (assuming that one could be formed and the country didnt decend into chaos) would have strong Sunni and Islamic ideals and we all have a fair idea of what that would mean for the fight the Americans are having in AL Anbar at the moment.

    What about actually allowing the people of Saudi decide who they actually want to govern them?
    Have you heard of the Whahhabi Sunni Mr Bush?
    Lots of them in Saudi and again Saudi is joined to Iraq at a region where the local tribes who are Sunni have close bonds with their Iraqi cousines.
    There is also a strong Shia minority right smack bang next to southern Iraq who have been agitating more openly lately since the installation of a Shia dominated government in Baghdad.

    Isnt it time Musharaff stepped aside and allowed democratic elections in Pakistan?
    I'll say this to you Mr Bush.......Baluchistan, Waziristan!

    What about Yemen then?
    Anarchy Mr President!
    The country is ridden with waring tribes and Islamic fundamentalists and would be unlikely to hold together without a strong man.

    Even, where there was by all accounts reasonably free and fair democratic election ie. Afghanistan it simply hasnt brought 'democracy' to this region as Talibean remnants are again starting to show their tracks over much of the voilence south and east of Kabul, many such attacks being funded armed and maned by elements from...............Waziristan and Baluchistan.

    So whats the answer?
    Damned if I know but eventually its gonna have to be realized in Washington and the middle east (islamic world) that what has gone before hasnt worked (for the most part).
    Whats happening now doesnt seem to be working (might do eventually but doesnt seem likely) and that maybe some new way must be found?
    Maybe a type of democracy where the people within a nation can choose if in local areas they want to be governed by tribal rule or religious rule who would then form a central council to decide on national matters?
    It has got to make more sense to adapt 'democracy' to the needs of the local population and customs than trying to adapt a whole religious (islamic) and tribal culture to suite a western brand of one man one vote and see ye'all in four years!
    Of course in modern Islamic cities Im sure a religious and or tribal way of governing would not be relevent but here again a way that suites the local needs might be found that can help people of different sect to live together and live with their neighbour and us (the west).

    But long term, with the increasing population in the middle east, the increasing draw of radical islam to the dissafected urban poor, and the decrease of natural resources in the region, that being water first and foremost and eventually oil.
    I simply cannot see a lasting peace in the region while there is an American backed Jewish state sitting smack bang in the middle of the Islamic world where lunatic radicals are constantly agitating the young and vunerable arab youth.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 21,264 ✭✭✭✭Hobbes


    Kilsally wrote:
    what is? The fact that Hamas stated that Israel does not have a right to exist?

    They didn't just state it, it was actually one of their election promises if I recall correctly.


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,301 ✭✭✭Snickers Man


    Did anyone else find it ironic that Channel 4 aired a documentary on the Israeli assassination mission in the wake of the Munich massacre on the very day that Hamas won such a huge victory in the Palestinian election?

    That was more than 30 years ago and they are still nowhere near putting a stop to 'Terr Roar'


  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    The Baler wrote:
    This event is the kick up the arse the right wingers of Likud deserve.

    On the contrary, it now gives them the opportunity to up the ante and be far more forecful. The US and EU will back them all the way, and they can turn around and shrug their shoulders and claim that when the Palestinians elect terrorists it becomes open season on them. I'd say they're rubbing their hands with glee, but the moderate Israelis must be depressed...


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 82 ✭✭hill16


    Israel is a terrorist state that has caused thousands of deaths in Palestine.I think Hamas in power is bad for the Palestine people.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 998 ✭✭✭Suff


    I think its about time!
    Israel want the Palestinians to disarm yet Israel is getting FREE weapons from the US!!!
    if you look at the previous history of talks between the two, one thing for sure that Israel use the term
    "Shoot first and never ask questions!"
    so if a Palestinians movment who desided to use the same Language that Israel uses this is considered as an illegal and a terror act ??? really!
    dont forget that Israel has a blind backing from the USA no matter what they do [UN Resolutions that the US vetoed so it wont effect Israel]

    the Palestinians have had suffered more than 100 years now [First wave of immigration (Alija), 30,000 Jews from Eastern Europe arrive in Palestine in 1903, link] so let them take the actions that suits them, they know what they want!

    FREE Palestinian


  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    Suff wrote:
    Israel want the Palestinians to disarm yet Israel is getting FREE weapons from the US!!!

    Well, in Ireland we wanted the IRA to disarm while getting FREE weapons from the UN!!!

    And the Palestinians get nothing from the countries that border Israel on nearly every side? The Palestinains get other countries to fight their wars for them - they just happen to be rather bad at it - and everyone thinks the US giving aid to Israel is something shocking.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 998 ✭✭✭Suff


    Well, in Ireland we wanted the IRA to disarm while getting FREE weapons from the UN!!!

    And the Palestinians get nothing from the countries that border Israel on nearly every side? The Palestinains get other countries to fight their wars for them - they just happen to be rather bad at it - and everyone thinks the US giving aid to Israel is something shocking.

    Ireland is not imposing an occupation !

    All neighbouring countries had offered their land for the hundreds of thousends of refugees back in the early 1900's

    Palestinains have no state army [not allowed to become one], they are fighting a fully and heavily armed force.
    if the US started to give the same aid to Palestinains then it would be a fair thing!


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 82 ✭✭hill16


    The Yanks invaded Iraq because they broke a UN resolution and were suposed to have weapons of mass destruction,yet they give aid to Israel which has ignored about a dozen UN resolutions,killed thousands of people,has nucelar weapons and illegally occupies another country.


  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    hill16 wrote:
    The Yanks invaded Iraq because they broke a UN resolution and were suposed to have weapons of mass destruction,yet they give aid to Israel which has ignored about a dozen UN resolutions,killed thousands of people,has nucelar weapons and illegally occupies another country.
    In your book how is that different to the IRA's illegal war and their illegal bombing of warrington?


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 82 ✭✭hill16


    Sorry eathman I think this post is about Palestine.


  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    Suff wrote:
    if the US started to give the same aid to Palestinains then it would be a fair thing!

    Alternatively, things could be levelled up if Jordan, Syria, Egypt and all other Arab countries that have tangled with Israel started launching the odd attack against the Palestinians...


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 998 ✭✭✭Suff


    Why in God's nam would they do that!!!???
    all of them have spend money, time, effort and even lives in order to help palestine.


  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    Suff wrote:
    Why in God's nam would they do that!!!???
    all of them have spend money, time, effort and even lives in order to help palestine.

    So you can't see any reason why they should not help Palestine, even with their very lives?

    Yet you find the very fact that the US helps Israel through money outrageous.

    :confused:

    Do you not see any small inconsistency? I suspect you are assuming the USA is bad and then building your argument around that, rather than the idea that intervention per se by any country is bad.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 998 ✭✭✭Suff


    How is it strange if you help your brother (arabs helping arabs)???
    and why do you want harm for Palestine!????
    the USA is providing Billions each year and free weapons, so give some of that to the other side to be a fair game.


  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    Suff wrote:
    How is it strange if you help your brother (arabs helping arabs)???

    If it's acceptable for the Arabs to gang up, in your opinion, surely it is acceptable for the Jews to gang up, or the white man to gang up?

    You are finding it very difficult to give a cogent reason as to why Arabs should be free to help Palestinians, but the US should not help Israel, aren't you? That's because lots of people instinctively hate US or UK intervention, but can't really articulate why they should hate the same agresseive foreign policy by other countries. On a tangent, bet a lot more object to the US than say the Russian atrocities in Chechnya...


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 82 ✭✭hill16


    Conor74,in an earlier post I gave some good reasons why the Yanks should not aid Israel.


  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    hill16 wrote:
    Sorry eathman I think this post is about Palestine.
    I beg to differ.
    Consistency across threads is a given.
    Now explain to me how the US carrying out an illegal war/Israel ignoring UN resolutions is any different from the IRA doing the same in your book?

    You must condemn both or none at all.
    Other wise its one rule for people you agree with and a different one for those you don't agree with.
    Ie hypocrisy...


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 13,992 ✭✭✭✭gurramok


    Plus Israel by de facto helped Hamas win by denying the vast majority of 100,000 voters in Jerusalem to vote where Hamas is weakest.
    Making them travel countless miles outside their city to vote discouraged this section of population to vote for their usual Fatah rep.


  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    hill16 wrote:
    Conor74,in an earlier post I gave some good reasons why the Yanks should not aid Israel.

    You said they are a terrorist state? You've gotta admit that the Palestinians certainly don't have anything to be shy about in that regard now...

    I'm not saying the Jews are right, the Arabs are wrong, Israel is some great state - all I'm looking for is consistency, and I don't see why anyone can argue the US helping Israel is so terrible but other Arabs helping Palestine is really just fine and dandy. The old saying is what's suace for the goose and so on. Intervention is intervention, whether or not it is good is really judged by what someone thinks of the original protagonists.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 82 ✭✭hill16


    It is illegal for a country to invade another country e.g Israel-Palestine,Britain-Ireland,USA-Iraq etc,in my book it is not illegal to fight back.So to answer your question in my opinion the IRA was right to bomb England.


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  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    hill16 wrote:
    It is illegal for a country to invade another country e.g Israel-Palestine,Britain-Ireland,USA-Iraq etc,in my book it is not illegal to fight back.So to answer your question in my opinion the IRA was right to bomb England.

    Ah thats just pure nonsense.
    That said you are now banned permanently good bye.


  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    hill16 wrote:
    It is illegal for a country to invade another country e.g Israel-Palestine

    When did the State of Israel invade the State of Palestine?


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 88,972 ✭✭✭✭mike65


    Anyway after the usual crap back to the topic at hand!

    What does the 'success' of Hamas actual mean for the average Palestianian?

    The reason Hamas did so well was'nt because of thier "Death to Israel and her Allies" policy or the love of 7th century Islamic Law it was entirely down the 40 years of corruption and mal-administration under Yassar Arafat and Fata. They got rich while the great unwashed suffered (and not just cos of Israeli policy, Arafat blew more than one oppotunity for improve the lot of 'his' people).

    Now suddenly the 'nutters' are in charge and I suspect they are as scared as
    anyone. They now have to deliver on the promise of a better tomorrow and its unlikely they have the calibre of men (doubt Hamass have to may women in top positions) to make it happen.

    I've a feeling a deal will be done with Fata as they at least know where the levers of power are even if they used them poorly.

    Mike.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 17,575 ✭✭✭✭A Dub in Glasgo


    Repeat after me

    We are all for Democracy!
    We are all for Democracy!

    Erm... Hang on.. only when we like the outcome


  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    Repeat after me

    We are all for Democracy!
    We are all for Democracy!

    Erm... Hang on.. only when we like the outcome
    Yeah that is so true in some cases isnt it...


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 4 Hill 16


    Earthman you are a disgrace,banning me because you have a different opinion then I have.You are a true beacon of democracy.


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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 25,848 ✭✭✭✭Zombrex


    Hill 16 wrote:
    Earthman you are a disgrace,banning me because you have a different opinion then I have.You are a true beacon of democracy.

    Complain by PM mod or posting in Feedback, stop trolling Politics ffs ... :rolleyes:


  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    Hill 16 wrote:
    You are a true beacon of democracy.

    Ah, you're back.

    Before you get banned again for not taking your original ban, let me know when Israel invaded Palestine.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 25,848 ✭✭✭✭Zombrex


    Ah, you're back.

    Before you get banned again for not taking your original ban, let me know when Israel invaded Palestine.

    Or when Britian invaded Ireland for that matter ... :v:


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,154 ✭✭✭Flex


    Wicknight wrote:
    Or when Britian invaded Ireland for that matter ... :v:

    Started around 1172, finished around 1600


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 25,848 ✭✭✭✭Zombrex


    Flex wrote:
    Started around 1172, finished around 1600

    It wasn't an invasion, they were invited


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 998 ✭✭✭Suff


    Invited!!!! man you got issues!
    anyway the first Jews started to arrive to Palestine in 1903 from eastern europe. [30,000 jews] and they still arriving every year!


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 3,045 ✭✭✭Húrin


    Akrasia wrote:
    The palestinians have the right to vote for whoever they want. Isn't democracy wonderful. Now where are all those folk with their purple fingers?
    In Palestine, presumably. I'm angry anytime fundamentalist nutcases get elected, anywhere, but this has serious consequences. It appears to me that most people who voted for them don't want the fighting to end because under Hamas there will be no peace. They voted for them out of foolish pride.


  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    Suff wrote:
    Invited!!!! man you got issues!
    anyway the first Jews started to arrive to Palestine in 1903 from eastern europe. [30,000 jews] and they still arriving every year!

    So you're just going to ignore the Jewish Roman wars, the persecution of Jews by the Romans, the remains of Jewish temples in the area and in particular the Temples in Jerusalem, you don't believe Masada exists or that it's not a few thousand years old, the fact that in the 19th century (before your date of 1903 when you allege 'the first Jews started to arrive') there were more Jews than Arabs in Jerusalem, maybe the Dead Sea Scrolls were just some notes jotted down on a copybook too...

    Do you really really think Jews started arriving in 1903. You can't just blithely ignore history because it doesn't suit your argument. The Jews were always there, maybe not in the same numbers or with the same power, but they were there before the Arabs conquered Palestine in 638.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 12,895 ✭✭✭✭Sand


    The reason Hamas did so well was'nt because of thier "Death to Israel and her Allies" policy or the love of 7th century Islamic Law it was entirely down the 40 years of corruption and mal-administration under Yassar Arafat and Fata. They got rich while the great unwashed suffered (and not just cos of Israeli policy, Arafat blew more than one oppotunity for improve the lot of 'his' people).

    Now suddenly the 'nutters' are in charge and I suspect they are as scared as
    anyone. They now have to deliver on the promise of a better tomorrow and its unlikely they have the calibre of men (doubt Hamass have to may women in top positions) to make it happen.

    I've a feeling a deal will be done with Fata as they at least know where the levers of power are even if they used them poorly.

    I fully agree - I think Ive heard on the news that Hamas have already put out feelers to Fatah to help them form a government. Im not sure how Palestinian opinion will greet that, they voted to get rid of their cronyism and corruption but Hamas need all the help they can get. Arafat may be sainted as the great peacemaker in the West, but he was a terrible, terrible political leader in terms of improving his peoples lot.

    I think the EU will need a Fatah cover for Hamas if its to continue funding the Palestinians, so theyll be hoping Fatah is there. If not, it will be excruciatingly embarrassing to be funding a listed terrorist group whilst claiming to fighting terrorism. Chirac has already threatened to nuke any state that supports terrorists who target French interests, which could lead to all sorts of fun and games down the road.

    For Israel, it doesnt matter really. The peace proccess has been dead for a long time, and the intifida has been defeated for the most part by the wall, targeted assassinations and the evacuation of vulnerable settlements so theres no rush to deal. The election of Hamas wont impact their plans Id say, though theyll use it to justify them.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 88,972 ✭✭✭✭mike65


    Why is it allways the w@nkers with low sperm counts......?

    Mike.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,154 ✭✭✭Flex


    Wicknight wrote:
    It wasn't an invasion, they were invited


    Invited to Leinster, by a guy promising to pay them with something he no longer owned (ie. the throne of Leinster). Do you think Ireland was occupied for centuries by Britain?


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 17,575 ✭✭✭✭A Dub in Glasgo


    mike65 wrote:
    Why is it allways the w@nkers with low sperm counts......?
    .


    that what?

    Post in Politics forum?

    Elect a radical group?

    Have Mercedes cars?

    ????????????


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 88,972 ✭✭✭✭mike65


    Sorry I was being obtuse. Why is it always posters with a low post count who are so quick to bang on about being oppressed.

    Mike.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 17,575 ✭✭✭✭A Dub in Glasgo


    mike65 wrote:
    Sorry I was being obtuse. Why is it always posters with a low post count who are so quick to bang on about being oppressed.

    Mike.

    That means 'Why it is always **** with low post counts that....

    Surely that contravenes the 'Never attack a poster. Attack the content of their post.' clause in the charter?


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 88,972 ✭✭✭✭mike65


    I was speaking in a general sense, its all over the place these days. Proberly the result of this place being so popular. Newbies tend to take umbridge quickly and dont take the time to acclimatise.

    If I get banned I'll take it like a man.

    Mike.


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