Frickin cars!!

connundrum

Walking alongside back-to-back traffic for 2 miles before we got to a bus stop the other day, I was amazed that at least 8 out of ten cars were only occupied by one person! Hundreds of cars, bumper to bumper, beeping horns etc and only one frickin person in every car?!?! :eek:

Does no one else have a problem with this? Why don't we have a government who.. (trails off onto a weather beaten path of how crap the present govt are). But seriously, without it being implemented by law, can't we see (with our own eyes) that if there are less cars on the road - there will be less traffic, and therefore less stress in getting to work/school/college?!

Do we need to make it law that at least 3 people per car between 8am and 9.30 am.. and 4.30pm and 6pm. Can we not just cop on ourselves?!

But seriously, this is beginning to piss me off now. :mad:

*This may belong in the motors section but I reckon it's a bigger social issue and deserves a wider audience.. hopefully

LegacyUser

Your preaching to the converted...............

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2054852736&highlight=No+forward+planning

super_furry

Compulsory school buses for kids would be a great idea too. The amount of people carriers taking fat lazy kids to schools is getting daft now – let the little ****ers walk or, if it’s too far make them take a school bus.

seamus

connundrum wrote:

Do we need to make it law that at least 3 people per car between 8am and 9.30 am.. and 4.30pm and 6pm. Can we not just cop on ourselves?!

That's not reasonable though. There are hundreds of valid reasons for driving alone between those times. What needs to be done is to encourage people to car pool.
Just one suggestion (off the top of my head) is to introduce a congestion charge, which is then waived for vehicles with three or more people in them, motorcycles, and commercial cars/vans.
Simply put, no people won't cop onto themselves. A lot of people simply have a stigma about public transport (read: Dublin Bus) because of its past record. There are plenty of people who'd rather spend 90 minutes in traffic, in the comfort of their own car with their music playing, then spend 30 minutes on a hot, overcrowded, smelly bus. That's just the way some people are.

MrPudding

super_furry wrote:

Compulsory school buses for kids would be a great idea too. The amount of people carriers taking fat lazy kids to schools is getting daft now – let the little ****ers walk or, if it’s too far make them take a school bus.

This is not as simple as it might seem. We have to take our kids to school by car in he morning, any other way and we would not be able to make it to work. That said, they do cycle home with the Au Pair. Our children’s school do not have a bus service and there are no other children in our estate that we could offer a lift to or who’s parents could offer our children a lift.

Of course I am not say that this is the case with all people giving their kids a lift to school. I personally know several families that live about a 10 minute walk form the school where the mother does not work but still drives the kids to and from school.

My point is it is not all about lazy kids or parents, so of us have no choice.

MrP

markpb

seamus wrote:

Just one suggestion (off the top of my head) is to introduce a congestion charge, which is then waived for vehicles with three or more people in them, motorcycles, and commercial cars/vans.

It's a nice idea but how would it be enforced? Gardai at every entrance to the canal cordon? When it was done in NY recently, the police had to stop and search each car because people were going to huge lengths to avoid the ban on LOVs. Clothes wrapped around the passenger seat, tinted windows, hitch-hikers being picked up one side of the checkpoint and dropped off the other...

The only realistic way is to raise the price and reduce the availability of parking in the city centre (including at-work parking) and start some proper measures to make public transport better. Better bus lanes, priority junctions, street closures, etc.

MrPudding wrote:

Our children’s school do not have a bus service and there are no other children in our estate that we could offer a lift to or who’s parents could offer our children a lift.

I'm not attacking you personally, just curious. Does DB not have a bus route that could bring them from home to school?

bungeecork

To improve traffic, how about doubling the price of petrol and then give 50% back to commercial vehicles through some already existing commercial business tax system? Would that lead to an immediate drop in traffic and cause less pollution, do you think? It might give the government more money to not spend on health, security, education or on IT consultants for all of the above?
Seriously though, the money could be spent purely on improving the frequency, safety and comfort of buses and bus stops, all over the country.
(stands by for angry responses...)

markpb

bungeecork wrote:

To improve traffic, how about doubling the price of petrol and then give 50% back to commercial vehicles through some already existing commercial business tax system? Would that lead to an immediate drop in traffic and cause less pollution, do you think? It might give the government more money to not spend on health, security, education or on IT consultants for all of the above?
Seriously though, the money could be spent purely on improving the frequency, safety and comfort of buses and bus stops, all over the country.
(stands by for angry responses...)

I think its a great idea. I don't think it's likely to happen purely because the AA and their cohorts in their 1 car marches on the M50 would throw a wobbly if the government tried to increase fuel tax again. The poor embattled motorist.

seamus

bungeecork wrote:

safety and comfort of buses and bus stops, all over the country.

Safety and comfort at a bus stop is only an issue when you're forced to wait for a painfully inefficient service...

MrPudding

markpb wrote:

I'm not attacking you personally, just curious. Does DB not have a bus route that could bring them from home to school?

No there isn't really but then that is not the reason we have to take them to school by car. The school is not that far away, 20 to 30 minute walk for an adult. Of course when you are talking about a 7 and three year old this is more like a 45 minute walk. Besides, coming home is fine, they do that by bike.

The problem is if we used either public transport, bikes or walking ot take then to school in the morning then whichever of us took them would not make it to work in time.

I would love for them to bike it to school every as well. Unfortunately they are too young at the moment and we don't have the time to do it.

MrP

C_Breeze

..because if you have more than 2 people in a car , you look dodgy and you constantly get pulled over by the guards askin "...where yee of ta lads" as if your up to no good.

its called goddam car-pooling motherf***er!

saving petrol, natural resources , minimizing traffic and the likes!

Archeron

connundrum wrote:

Walking alongside back-to-back traffic for 2 miles before we got to a bus stop the other day, I was amazed that at least 8 out of ten cars were only occupied by one person! Hundreds of cars, bumper to bumper, beeping horns etc and only one frickin person in every car?!?! :eek:

Does no one else have a problem with this? Why don't we have a government who.. (trails off onto a weather beaten path of how crap the present govt are). But seriously, without it being implemented by law, can't we see (with our own eyes) that if there are less cars on the road - there will be less traffic, and therefore less stress in getting to work/school/college?!

Do we need to make it law that at least 3 people per car between 8am and 9.30 am.. and 4.30pm and 6pm. Can we not just cop on ourselves?!

But seriously, this is beginning to piss me off now. :mad:

*This may belong in the motors section but I reckon it's a bigger social issue and deserves a wider audience.. hopefully

Does it make you feel any better if the person in the car is really fat and would have taken up two or three seats on a bus?

Victor

Let the adults walk!

connundrum wrote:

Walking alongside back-to-back traffic for 2 miles before we got to a bus stop the other day, I was amazed that at least 8 out of ten cars were only occupied by one person! Hundreds of cars, bumper to bumper, beeping horns etc and only one frickin person in every car?!?! :eek:

Typical commuter occupancy is 1.25 people per car.

seamus wrote:

That's not reasonable though. There are hundreds of valid reasons for driving alone between those times. What needs to be done is to encourage people to car pool.

Car pools attract would be public transport users, not other drivers. No, all those cars are used by would-be alpha males who must control their destiny.

jayo99

Us car drivers pay enough for the price of a car , the cost of insurance , the cost of road tax, the price of petrol (not to mention the cost of regular services/maintenance) that we should have the option of not wanting to carry another passenger. If we did, we could save all the €€€ on the car and just go on the bus !

Anyways, as others had said its by no means as clear as that.. In this country of overexaggerated insurance claims/high premiums , have you stopped to consider the field day that would be the day in court to decide liability/payouts if there happened to be an accident involving a car with multiple passengers you have 'shared' your car with.

b3t4

Why are there, from what I can see, no school buses for kids in Dublin?
And why is there a lack of asking for buses?

I grew up in the country and you HAD to get a bus to school. There wasn't an option of whether your parents took you to school or not.

Also, I don't take the notion that these school kids should take Dublin Bus. I feel it would be safer for the kids if they were in with other kids there own age. Also, adding school children to the already over packed buses in the morning is not going to help the situation.

Also, people who abuse bus lanes should be fined on the spot!! At a crossroads with traffic lights down from my stop the bus lane ends so as to allow people turning left. The bus lane then continues at the other side. EVERY morning there a number of cars who pretend to be going left when in fact they are going straight ahead. When they try to move forward they can't as traffic is bad and they then block the bus lane. It adds a good 10mins onto the journey.

Another thing is if all these people were to use the bus and not their car I wouldn't be able to get into work any day of the week, as by the time any bus got to my stop it would be permanently full.

Couldn't a park and ride facility outside the city centre not help as well. People could still use there cars but wouldn't have to worry about getting parking in the city centre or paying for it.

Some ideas I thought I'd add.

A.

corktina

you wont stop people taking their cars to work until you price them off the road and improve public transport...congestion charge and higher car parking costs are the way to go I guess......even then, the Buses etc dont necessarily go to where people want to go......not every one works in the city centre......

Litcagral

There are also quite a number of commuters who require their car during the day. My wife has to report to her office each morning and then make several journeys during the day before reporting back to the office each evening. Public transport would be useless in this situation. I'm sure there are many others who have similar circumstances.

johnnyrotten

jayo99 wrote:

Us car drivers pay enough for the price of a car , the cost of insurance , the cost of road tax, the price of petrol (not to mention the cost of regular services/maintenance) that we should have the option of not wanting to carry another passenger. If we did, we could save all the €€€ on the car and just go on the bus !

Anyways, as others had said its by no means as clear as that.. In this country of overexaggerated insurance claims/high premiums , have you stopped to consider the field day that would be the day in court to decide liability/payouts if there happened to be an accident involving a car with multiple passengers you have 'shared' your car with.

AGREED!

The Free Man

i'd just like to say i've given up on all forms of motor transport in dublin. I now walk to and from college (finglas > kevin st) and it only takes an hour, and not one bus would pass me at rush hour.

i totally agree that people should at least car pool when in a city, or just walk yis lazy ignorant fools!

Mucco

jayo99 wrote:

Us car drivers pay enough for the price of a car , the cost of insurance , the cost of road tax, the price of petrol

Yes, motoring is so expensive, that's probably why 86% vehicles crossing the canals are cars, and only 2% are buses.

Average morning peak journey speeds are 16kph, hence the observation of the OP.

Source: DTO

M

Calina

corktina wrote:

you wont stop people taking their cars to work until you price them off the road and improve public transport...congestion charge and higher car parking costs are the way to go I guess......even then, the Buses etc dont necessarily go to where people want to go......not every one works in the city centre......

Actually, I strongly disagree with this statement. You won't stop people taking their cars to work until there is a viable, reliable alternative, and I am sorry, such a thing does not exist in Dublin city. You're dreaming if you think it does.

I've lived in Brussels, Paris, London, Munich and Brittany. In all these places I survived on either public transport or walking to work. Unfortunately, this isn't wholly possible in Dublin. The public transport system in Dublin is not adequate to the needs of the city, and the layout and property set up doesn't necessarily lend itself to everyone living within walking distance of work either.

Currently the public transport system is creaking at the seams in rush hour.
Unlike many more fortunate people, my sole public transport option to get to work is bus. It is fully unreliable and frequently full. Not only that, and with respect to the bus drivers who frequent this site, the buses are, during the wet - not totally uncommon here - frequently very smelly and damp. This is not something I have experienced in other city bus services and I've used more than a few at this stage in my life. In short, it is not a pleasant experience.

I am rightly sick to the teeth of people emphasising the need to make life difficult for people driving when it would be altogether more productive and beneficial to significantly more people if the existing transport system was made adequate to the needs of the people already using it + plus the people we are trying to attract to using it, rather than trying to totally force the issue and compel people who don't use it to use it as well. It is not up to it right now. Unfortunately, I see far too much whinging about drivers, far too much whinging about the Luas, far too much arguing about what would be right or wrong for Dublin, and the net result is we have increasing problems with public transport and with road congestion - ie everything gets worse.

When we have an adequate public transport infrastructure, then implement the congestion charging, move the carparking charges from merely rip off to total extortion. But not before.

Edit: I might also add that cost to consumer wise, Dublin compares horribly badly with each of the cities mentioned above for public transport, with the possible exception of London.

Saruman

As for car pooling.. people seem to forget an important fact.... safety.. We have a claim culture and if you have people carpooling with you, you are in fact liable for their safety it seems. I mean i read about a guy who got a lift to work from a work mate who then sued her for neck pain complaining she drove with the window open which caused a draft which cause neck pain.. i believe he won!!!

Anyway even if he lost, the fact it enters peoples heads to sue for stuff like this would put me off having anyone but CLOSE friends and family in my car.

Also you CANT say people with no passengers should not be allowed on the road.. think slowly about what you are saying!!! For one thing i HAVE to drive for a living. Im an IT consultant engineer and have to drive to sites to install servers and so on.. Im the only person in the car. Should i be banned from driving for this reason or should i be excluded.. where do exclusions begin.. how the feck could anyone on the planet hope to police this and enforce it???

It makes no sense.. no this seems to be just an illogical rant.
If you CAN walk to work.. grand.. wish i could. Do you think its fair to ask someone who works in say..... finglas.. and lives in.. well anywhere thats not north side of Dublin to stick with public transport? What about the fact that MOST of the population of Dublin does NOT live in the city.. they live in suburbs with limited public transport.. a LOT even live outside of the public transport system.

I live in westmeath for instance but i work in Dublin. My wife also works in dublin, in sandyford... I drive her in to the city centre to get the luas before going where ever im going.. unless im working nearby in which case i drop her to work... assume i do not go to dublin.. im off.. there is NO way she can get to Sandyford in time for 9am. Even if she gets the EARLIEST train from Mullingar (i would have to drive her there as i dont live there). Or the earlisest bus (any provider) from our town.... She can not commute to work to be in on time.

When we have a proper public transport system and still people do not use it.. then your complaints will have some merit!



By the way... listen to Dublin city trafic radio... they tell you where to avoid and where is clear.... very handy Its on signs all over the place... i think its 103.2 fm

corktina

Calina wrote:

Actually, I strongly disagree with this statement. You won't stop people taking their cars to work until there is a viable, reliable alternative, and I am sorry, such a thing does not exist in Dublin city. You're dreaming if you think it does.

I've lived in Brussels, Paris, London, Munich and Brittany. In all these places I survived on either public transport or walking to work. Unfortunately, this isn't wholly possible in Dublin. The public transport system in Dublin is not adequate to the needs of the city, and the layout and property set up doesn't necessarily lend itself to everyone living within walking distance of work either.

Currently the public transport system is creaking at the seams in rush hour.
Unlike many more fortunate people, my sole public transport option to get to work is bus. It is fully unreliable and frequently full. Not only that, and with respect to the bus drivers who frequent this site, the buses are, during the wet - not totally uncommon here - frequently very smelly and damp. This is not something I have experienced in other city bus services and I've used more than a few at this stage in my life. In short, it is not a pleasant experience.

I am rightly sick to the teeth of people emphasising the need to make life difficult for people driving when it would be altogether more productive and beneficial to significantly more people if the existing transport system was made adequate to the needs of the people already using it + plus the people we are trying to attract to using it, rather than trying to totally force the issue and compel people who don't use it to use it as well. It is not up to it right now. Unfortunately, I see far too much whinging about drivers, far too much whinging about the Luas, far too much arguing about what would be right or wrong for Dublin, and the net result is we have increasing problems with public transport and with road congestion - ie everything gets worse.

When we have an adequate public transport infrastructure, then implement the congestion charging, move the carparking charges from merely rip off to total extortion. But not before.

Edit: I might also add that cost to consumer wise, Dublin compares horribly badly with each of the cities mentioned above for public transport, with the possible exception of London.

you want to learn to read mate........

markpb

Saruman wrote:

Should i be banned from driving for this reason or should i be excluded.. where do exclusions begin..

Let's not get too excited about this. There will always be people who need to drive during the day. But you have to agree that the vast majority of people in Dublin drive in at 9am and drive home at 5pm. How many off-site engineers are they compared to secretaries? If a HOV limit was brough in, exceptions could be planned for, such as allowing permits for branded company vehicles. (not directors mercs and the like...)

What about the fact that MOST of the population of Dublin does NOT live in the city.. they live in suburbs with limited public transport.. a LOT even live outside of the public transport system. I live in westmeath for instance but i work in Dublin.

I'm particularly biased about this so excuse me if I come across all facist :-) You chose to live waaaaaay outside Dublin for whatever reason. If you expect Dublin to subsidise your choice of living, then the rest of the city suffers. Buses running miles away from everywhere to serve Maynooth, Swords, west meath, etc mean less buses on shorter, busier and more effective services inside the city.

When we have a proper public transport system and still people do not use it.. then your complaints will have some merit!

To some extent, I agree with you. But if you actually look at the roads in dublin, the buses are being hindered by... cars. Cars at the junctions, cars in the bus lanes, cars parked in the bus stops. Sure there are lots of other problems with DB but if traffic was reduced, even slightly, the buses would be much more effective.

Calina

corktina wrote:

you want to learn to read mate........

Oh I can. But all you said was something along the lines of the buses don't go everywhere people need to go. You didn't suggest that this situation must be improved before you got all machiavellian with congestion charges and extortionate parking charges.

Saruman

I'm particularly biased about this so excuse me if I come across all facist :-) You chose to live waaaaaay outside Dublin for whatever reason. If you expect Dublin to subsidise your choice of living, then the rest of the city suffers. Buses running miles away from everywhere to serve Maynooth, Swords, west meath, etc mean less buses on shorter, busier and more effective services inside the city.

Thats not very true... i did not CHOOSE to live in westmeath as such... house prices did that for me.. Average house price is almost 300K.
You might as well say you have no sympathy for people who CHOOSE not to work within walking distance or a short bus journey... fact is thats not the way things work. If i lived in Monkstown or Blackrock or somewhere way southside... I would have to take at the very LEAST 2 buses and probably more, taking me and hour and a half to 2 hours to get to the other side of the city (if lucky)to work in say.. the Airport or somewhere in Finglas or Santry etc. And thats assuming i live near a direct bus route to the city centre in the first place. I can drive it in less time so regardless of me having to drive for work, if i did not i would not commute like that.

Bringing in all these congestion charges and laws to prevent people driving and on to public transport to try and CURE a problem that is not caused by cars, but by the lack of public transport in the first place and terrible road design over the years is pointless.

Calina

markpb wrote:

I'm particularly biased about this so excuse me if I come across all facist :-) You chose to live waaaaaay outside Dublin for whatever reason. If you expect Dublin to subsidise your choice of living, then the rest of the city suffers. Buses running miles away from everywhere to serve Maynooth, Swords, west meath, etc mean less buses on shorter, busier and more effective services inside the city.

Currently, the nearest I can afford to actually buy a house is Slane. It's 29 miles from my place of employment. Now you might turn around and say well, it's not like you have to live there - you can rent nearer. Unfortunately, to do this, I also have to share with other human beings, and maybe you have a nice warm feeling about how wonderful all other human beings are, but frankly some of the people I've lived with have been borderline impossible.

Additionally, because of the profile of some of the rental market, rent is not a long term option in this city. Security of tenure is limited to four years and most of the landlords I have dealt with to date are amateurs either holding on to their first property or renting out their first while I pay off some of their mortgage. In the past 6 years I've only once dealt with a professional.

You might then turn around and say surely you can afford a one bedroomed apartment. I would turn around and say that such things are 1) overpriced and 2) very unlikely to hold their value in the long term and 3) across the board appallingly badly built. And actually, where I work, I cannot

It's not, as such, a totally free choice - unless you have a lot of money. When everyone who works in Dublin can actually afford to live in Dublin, then you can criticise people for choosing to live outside the city area. Unfortunately the reality is that 1) buying is too expensive for many people and 2) the rental market, despite changes meted to it in the past while is still not a long term option for anyone. I've had two houses sold from under me in the past three years. For many people it's a case of the devil versus the deep blue sea.

And for the record, currently I am still going on with the rental, purely because I can't stand the idea of driving for three hours every day. But I resent it. I don't consider it a choice at all, and it is certainly not my free will.

seamus

Calina wrote:

It is not up to it right now.

That's pretty much key here.

People can whinge on and on about cars blocking busses, and overcrowding, but the fact of the matter is that we lack a modern public transport infrastructure. Even with the traffic in the mornings, it should be possible to estimate bus times to within five minutes - the traffic doesn't change all that much, so busses are going to be held up at most of the same places each morning.

Dublin Bus has improved much over the last few years, but the two big hurdles still remain - reliability and proper routing. I live in Lucan, with the lovely GPS indicators telling you when the next bus is going to be. 90% of the time, these are accurate to within 3 minutes. Other times though, the display will count down, say "Bus Arriving", then no bus arrives and then it changes to "30 minutes". If it's GPS, how can a bus just get "lost"? Can they not just stick a different notice saying "Broken Down" or "Cancelled", then I could go to another bus stop instead of waiting 15 minutes for a bus that never arrives. I don't take a bus more than twice a month, so there's no way these are just isolated incidents, or I'm just very unlucky.


When I talk about proper routing, I'm talking about making it convenient for people to get busses. Nobody will walk 15 minutes to get a bus, and nobody will get two busses. Bitch all you like, but that's the way people are, you won't change that. People also will not take two busses, particularly when it brings them well out of their way. I'm talking about orbital routes. Routes that don't enter the city centre at all, but allow you to get from Blanchardstown to Tallaght in about 45 minutes. Why would I take a bus into the city centre, then a second bus out to my job, when I could just drive there in half the time?

markpb

seamus wrote:

I live in Lucan, with the lovely GPS indicators telling you when the next bus is going to be. 90% of the time, these are accurate to within 3 minutes.

At least your route has RTIS, it's very much in the minority compared to the rest of the city.

When I talk about proper routing, I'm talking about making it convenient for people to get busses. Nobody will walk 15 minutes to get a bus, and nobody will get two busses. Bitch all you like, but that's the way people are, you won't change that. People also will not take two busses, particularly when it brings them well out of their way.

Routing through the city centre is a pain in the ass but you're wrong when you say people won't take two buses. Done properly, it's a much more effecient way of running a bus service. The 27B which runs past my door serves Harristown, Oscar Traynor Road, Castletimon, Beaumont, Artane, Malahide Road, Fairview and the city centre and its incredibly slow and unreliable. On the other hand I can get the 17A and then any other bus down the Malahide road in half the time. Proper ticketing would encourage this.

I'm talking about orbital routes. Routes that don't enter the city centre at all, but allow you to get from Blanchardstown to Tallaght in about 45 minutes.

There are already several orbital routes in dublin, 17a and 220 spring to mind. Yes there should definitely be more but at the moment they're awful because priority is given to traffic flowing into and out of the city centre.

corktina

Calina wrote:

Oh I can. But all you said was something along the lines of the buses don't go everywhere people need to go. You didn't suggest that this situation must be improved before you got all machiavellian with congestion charges and extortionate parking charges.

"improve public transport" is what I said....should have gone to specsavers.....

seamus

markpb wrote:

At least your route has RTIS, it's very much in the minority compared to the rest of the city.

Sorry, I mentioned it, but forgot to make the point. It's a great idea, but it's not going to be a whole lot of use if/when they roll it out, and it has the same issues as I describe. If busses can vanish into thin air even they're being tracked with GPS, what hope does the rest of the commuting public have of depending on a bus, when all they can rely on is a timetable?

MrPudding

Saruman wrote:

If i lived in Monkstown or Blackrock or somewhere way southside... I would have to take at the very LEAST 2 buses and probably more, taking me and hour and a half to 2 hours to get to the other side of the city (if lucky)to work in say.. the Airport or somewhere in Finglas or Santry etc. And thats assuming i live near a direct bus route to the city centre in the first place. I can drive it in less time so regardless of me having to drive for work, if i did not i would not commute like that.

This is exactly the problem a lot of people have. I live in Cabinteely I work nearby and can walk. My GF works on the North Circular road. She needs two bused to get to work and it normally will take 90 minutes to get there and 120ish to get home. She can drive each way in about an hour.

Add to this the need to drop the kids to school and it simply does not make sense for her to use the public transport. She does not need the car for her job simply to get there and home.

MrP

markpb

I'd hope that when the system is fully rolled out those bugs will go away. Presumably they're because the system is incomplete or still in testing.

That said, we don't seem to be so good at rolling out big projects these days so I'll wait and see.

Saruman

Some form of public transport running the whole length of the M50 would be a good idea... Be it Bus, Luas, Monorail, metro.. whatever...
If Bus.. well you obviously cant have bus stops on a motorway but the bus could leave the motorway at each exit. Go to a stop, take a quick route back on to the M50 and go on its way.. not idea. at rush hour as it will still get stuck in traffic but at least its an alternative.. There is no other way to get from sandyford to Blanch without going through city centre.

Bus lanes are a solution and a curse... such as the N32... never have i once seen a bus on that road yet both sides have a bus lane???

The Quays, especially north where the bus lane comes to a stop because the street is designed that way and the bus HAS to merge into traffic.
Hell busses themselves can cause major jams.. there are too many places where Bus stops are on the road instead of having a little inlet to stop in.. so a bus stops and traffic comes to a stop.. if its heavy like at rush hour, even if its moving fine.. once that bus stops the backlog filters down all the way and even after the bus pulls away the backlog will remain for maybe 5 mins until of course another bus stops and it starts all over again.

Buses are absolutly NO solution. We need Metros, not "Talk of metros"

John R

seamus wrote:

Sorry, I mentioned it, but forgot to make the point. It's a great idea, but it's not going to be a whole lot of use if/when they roll it out, and it has the same issues as I describe. If busses can vanish into thin air even they're being tracked with GPS, what hope does the rest of the commuting public have of depending on a bus, when all they can rely on is a timetable?

Those problems are there because it was just a pilot scheme run on a handful of routes. Only a small number of buses were fitted with the reporting equipment and many of the buses now running on these routes are not equipped so the displays revert to a fixed timetable when the system cannot pick up a bus.

The funding for expanding the system disappeared a few years ago with the attempts by the DoT to undermine Dublin Bus in favour of a privatised system that has not happened.

As part of the ticket machine/smart card installation the whole fleet is being equipped with a much more advanced real-time reporting system but until funding is released for the customer information system it cannot be rolled-out on new routes and the current displays cannot be integrated into it.


Like everything else in this country it was only partially done, the minister at the time turned out for the photo-op and then it was not of any use for political mileage so was quickly forgotten.

John R

Saruman wrote:

If i lived in Monkstown or Blackrock or somewhere way southside... I would have to take at the very LEAST 2 buses and probably more, taking me and hour and a half to 2 hours to get to the other side of the city (if lucky)to work in say.. the Airport or somewhere in Finglas or Santry etc.

And why would it take that long? Because the buses crawl along on streets gridlocked by cars.

Saying that public transport is sh!t and that's why you use the car may be true but until you (and everybody else) are forced out of cars public transport will remain sh!t.

Saruman wrote:

Bringing in all these congestion charges and laws to prevent people driving and on to public transport to try and CURE a problem that is not caused by cars, but by the lack of public transport in the first place and terrible road design over the years is pointless.

There is potentially plenty of public transport, if the entire bus fleet wasn't stuck crawling at the lowest speed of any city in Europe there would be a huge amount of extra capacity for better routes and increased frequencies. As it is more buses are used then ever just to keep running the same number of services as before.

John R

Saruman wrote:

Some form of public transport running the whole length of the M50 would be a good idea... Be it Bus, Luas, Monorail, metro.. whatever...
If Bus.. well you obviously cant have bus stops on a motorway but the bus could leave the motorway at each exit. Go to a stop, take a quick route back on to the M50 and go on its way.. not idea. at rush hour as it will still get stuck in traffic but at least its an alternative.. There is no other way to get from sandyford to Blanch without going through city centre.

Problem with that is there is no quick way on/off the M50 at junctions. A bus going non-stop from Sandyford to Blanch would be quick but if it had to exit at Tallaght, Red cow and Liffey Valley it would add 30 mns easily to the overall journey, then it would not be able to go to where most people wanted so a change would be required at one or both ends and the "but it's too slow, it's quicker to drive" excuse would come out and we would be back to where we started.

Saruman wrote:

Bus lanes are a solution and a curse... such as the N32... never have i once seen a bus on that road yet both sides have a bus lane???

That's what happens when one branch of government (Fingal CC) installes the lane while another branch (Department of Transport) grants an exclusive licence to a private company to use the thing without imposing any service requirements on them. They decide there's not enough profit in running the service so they close up shop and sell off the licence to another operator who buys it not to run a service but to stop anyone else from doing so.

Saruman wrote:

The Quays, especially north where the bus lane comes to a stop because the street is designed that way and the bus HAS to merge into traffic.
Hell busses themselves can cause major jams.. there are too many places where Bus stops are on the road instead of having a little inlet to stop in.. so a bus stops and traffic comes to a stop.. if its heavy like at rush hour, even if its moving fine.. once that bus stops the backlog filters down all the way and even after the bus pulls away the backlog will remain for maybe 5 mins until of course another bus stops and it starts all over again.

Inset bus stops where there is no bus lane are a major delaying factor for buses, it takes time to get back into the roadway and allows too many other vehicles to overtake them. It also provides a great place for cars to park/load/stop for a natter on the phone all too often preventing the buses from getting close to the kerb.

Standard practice now in most countries is to remove inset stops particularly on single-carriageway roads to prevent traffic from leapfrogging buses.

Saruman wrote:

Buses are absolutly NO solution. We need Metros, not "Talk of metros"

Buses are the ONLY solution for Dublin because of the low-density population spread. It would take a dozen metro/rail/tram lines to come close to serving a significant % of the population of Dublin. Some new lines do make sense and certainly better use of the current ones is essential but the only viable solution in the medium term is to aggressively tackle car use and provide proper road based alternatives.

markpb

Saruman wrote:

Buses are absolutly NO solution. We need Metros, not "Talk of metros"

With all due respect, thats rubbish. Even with a fantastic grid of rail lines, we'll still need a bus network to bring people to the stations.

Ideally we should build a few more properly thought out light and heavy rail lines and then re-organise the bus network so it revolves around the rail network. In the meantime, we still have a lot of work to do to sort out DBs problems.

Saruman

markpb wrote:

With all due respect, thats rubbish. Even with a fantastic grid of rail lines, we'll still need a bus network to bring people to the stations.

Ideally we should build a few more properly thought out light and heavy rail lines and then re-organise the bus network so it revolves around the rail network. In the meantime, we still have a lot of work to do to sort out DBs problems.

You hardly thought i meant get rid of buses and build metros did you?? I meant that relying on the bus network as our main public transport is folly... where else in the world is this the case??? OK maybe there are some cities but not with the size and population of Dublin.
A bus network is essential but it cant be seen as the only or main system. Cities like London, Paris, New York.. well they work with all their forms of public transport.. sometimes its a nightmare but it still works.. Prague has fantastic transport.. so much you do not need to drive and in fact are quicker not as traffic on the streets can be very congested...

Maybe some form of congestion charge for the city centre could be imposed.. sure.. BUT thats not where all the problems are.. The M50 and all over the city is clogged with traffic. Do you propose a congestion charge covering ALL of Dublin to force people out of cars and into buses??

If you need to get somewhere in Prague or Paris etc.. you will have to change but its quick... you pretty much get off a bus, walk a short distance to a metro or tram and withing minutes there is something there for you... Dublin... eh right....

Oh the other problem is COST!! You could argue that its cheaper to take public transport than to drive.. that may be true but if it is, its not by much... Public transport as well as being pretty crap is also very very expensive.

Im not saying forget about public transport.. on the contrary... major investment is needed but draconian measures to get people on to a public transport system that is simply not capable of supporting it is non-sense.

b3t4

seamus wrote:

Nobody will walk 15 minutes to get a bus, and nobody will get two busses.

huh, I have to walk 10mins to my bus stop in the mornings and I'm glad of it. I don't have another option to get into work and that's why it doesn't bother me.

When I was living in another part of Dublin it took me 15mins-20mins to walk to my bus.

I have gotten two buses on a number of occassions. I live on the southside and have on a few occassions visited friends in Maynooth and Sandyford which requires me to take two forms of transport to get there. maynooth requires two buses and Sandyford requires me to take a bus into town and out.

To people who say the bus service is unreliable, it's made even more unreliable by the number of cars on the road causing the huge volume of traffic.

For example, when the schools, colleges and a lot of people hadn't returned to work after Christmas there were extremely little cars on the road. I was able to guarantee that I could get the bus at 8:30am and arrive in town at 8:45am. That 15mins journey is now a 30mins journey and has been a 40mins journey on some occasions also there is no guarantee of a bus being there at any time.

Saruman

b3t4... do you drive? Do you actually have a car?
I think you will find if you do not then what you said does not matter since you have no choice in the first place.

However since most of the population drives, if its a choice of walking 20 mins in the cold and rain to get to a bus in the first place and then have to take the bus, get off... walk another 10 - 15 mins get on another bus after waiting 20 mins for one and then arrive to work late 3 hours later (over the top maybe... )... OR get in car.. sit in traffic but be warm.. get to work just before 9 or maybe 5 mins late if traffic very bad, total journey under an hour... Well you figure out what people will do!!!

Johnny Jukebox

super_furry wrote:

Compulsory school buses for kids would be a great idea too. The amount of people carriers taking fat lazy kids to schools is getting daft now – let the little ****ers walk or, if it’s too far make them take a school bus.

Yes, that would be great. I would use and willingly pay for this.

Until it arrives my kids get driven to school, simply because there is no other safe option. The school is within walking distance and easy cycling distance but a combination of no cycle lanes, country roads not designed for traffic levels, SUVs and heavy trucks makes it totally unsafe. And I mean TOTALLY unsafe.

Its bad enough for a fully grown, aggressive adult on a 19" MTB; for a small kid on a small bike its unthinkable.

corktina

Johnny Jukebox wrote:

Yes, that would be great. I would use and willingly pay for this.

Until it arrives my kids get driven to school, simply because there is no other safe option. The school is within walking distance and easy cycling distance but a combination of no cycle lanes, country roads not designed for traffic levels, SUVs and heavy trucks makes it totally unsafe. And I mean TOTALLY unsafe.

Its bad enough for a fully grown, aggressive adult on a 19" MTB; for a small kid on a small bike its unthinkable.

yep not safe to walk on country roads anymore......

bungeecork

This country is booming. We are richer now than we ever have been. Is this as good as public transport is ever going to get?

Transport ministers are casual employees of the state. Like health ministers, they rotate in and out of the portfolio several times during a government term so they'll only ever be bungee-managers of the transport system; bounce in, change a few things, bounce out.

Do you guys think a fundemental change is required?

markpb

bungeecork wrote:

This country is booming. We are richer now than we ever have been. Is this as good as public transport is ever going to get?

For the moment yes The odd time a minister actually does something, instead of just promising to do something, their only aim is to win votes. The richer Ireland gets, the more people want cars. They think they are above public transport and as such, any attempt to reduce road space for bus lanes or close roads for rail tracks will be met with outrage.

Failing that, there's always the 'think how many hospital incubators/cat scanners/beds that money could have bought' argument that the papers roll out.

b3t4

Saruman wrote:

b3t4... do you drive? Do you actually have a car?
I think you will find if you do not then what you said does not matter since you have no choice in the first place.

I'm glad to hear you can decide for me what I thinik. It's great when other people can sort this out for me.

I do drive but do not have a car. I can afford to get a car but I cannot see a point to owning a car in Dublin when for the majority of my journeys I'd be stuck in traffic.

I have found that the car owners I have spoken to don't even look at other options for getting to work. They bandish on about public transport but they can't even tell me local buses that service their area. I've no problem with people who say I can't use the bus/train service for reasons a, b and c but people who simple will not avail of the service really, really, annoy me.

I have thought that it would be great for to ban cars going into Dublin city centre (Except for emergency cases) for a week and make it so that everyone, including politicians and the likes, use public transport.

Ok, so that's not possible but it'll add to the ranting

No matter what fense on this discussion one lies on everyone dislikes being stuck in traffic for hours and having to get up that little bit earliar, then earlier, to be able to get to work on time. It's not about one group against another we have to work this out together and come to some sort of comprosise. Otherwise we're all banging our head against a brick wall and after a while that looks pretty nasty.

A.

John R

Saruman wrote:

b3t4... do you drive? Do you actually have a car?
I think you will find if you do not then what you said does not matter since you have no choice in the first place.

Not owning a car is a choice in the first place.

Saruman wrote:

However since most of the population drives

Not true. In 2000 the figure was 31 cars per 100, even allowing for a large increase since then ot would only be just over 1 car per 2 adults now.

For Dublin the car ownership figures are lower so a good deal less than half the adult population in Dublin does not use a car daily.

MorningStar

Johnny Jukebox wrote:

Yes, that would be great. I would use and willingly pay for this.

Until it arrives my kids get driven to school, simply because there is no other safe option. The school is within walking distance and easy cycling distance but a combination of no cycle lanes, country roads not designed for traffic levels, SUVs and heavy trucks makes it totally unsafe. And I mean TOTALLY unsafe.

Its bad enough for a fully grown, aggressive adult on a 19" MTB; for a small kid on a small bike its unthinkable.

Actually the safety issue is a white rabbit. It has been proved many times that drving your child is more dangerous than if they walk. People actually have the wrong perception that it is safer in the car.
Childrens health being a big issue means the dangers of driving your child are actually worse. Your perception of safety is tainted by your beliefs but not the facts. Your beliefs are most likely tainted by media reports. Like child abduction and sex offenders, people worry about strangers doing this stuff yet 90%+ times it is family memember or close family friend.

Don't beleive the hype.

Saruman

John R wrote:

Not true. In 2000 the figure was 31 cars per 100, even allowing for a large increase since then ot would only be just over 1 car per 2 adults now.

For Dublin the car ownership figures are lower so a good deal less than half the adult population in Dublin does not use a car daily.

Umm 2 million vehicles on our road.. 4 million people, that would be half except for the fact a lot of the remaining 2 million cant drive due to being 4 years old or too old or unable to drive... so its more than half the population and thus most people

Anyway obviously you cant just ban all cars in the city centre except for emergency use.. i mean people do live there!! Does that mean they are not allowed to own a car? All this talk of bans is silly...

Somethnig does need to be done though... when the public transport system is better.. less people will use their cars.. I mean if i worked in the city centre and lived in Dublin i would not drive.. i would take the bus or cycle. When i did live in Palmerstown i would never Drive to go shopping in the city centre.. i would always take the bus. Thats because Palmerstown has a very good Bus system.. i still need to walk 15 mins from my house to the Main road but i do not mind myself... If i had to transfer though i probably would not have... I would probably drive.

Hard line approaches cant work here.. we need public transport made better. We could also do with moving things away from the city.. Build more shopping centres outside of Dublin, close enough to be a short journey but will keep traffic out of Dublin on a rainy sunday when everyone heads for Blanch and Liffey Valley. OK there are probably problems that will come with stuff like this but its something...

spacetweek

Saruman wrote:

Umm 2 million vehicles on our road..

Who said it's 2 million? I'm pretty sure that the car ownershiip rate for Ireland is still below the EU average which i think is 450 per 1000 people. The irish rate is more like 350/1000 which makes for 1.4 million cars.

Saruman wrote:

We could also do with moving things away from the city.. Build more shopping centres outside of Dublin, close enough to be a short journey but will keep traffic out of Dublin on a rainy sunday when everyone heads for Blanch and Liffey Valley. OK there are probably problems that will come with stuff like this but its something...

That's what we did do and it was a disaster as we located all of them along busy major highways thus clogging them up with 2.4-kid-families going Sunday browsing.

corktina

"most of the population drives "....hmm...well, if you only include that sector that is eligible to drive that is a fair comment.....

you can't judge by the number of cars though, as some people have 5 cars......:)