are any irish rappers making it??

sugardaddy

i think that it would be great to see some successfull irish rappers come about but are there any.like i heard scary eire and collie and their embarrasingly bad at best ,but do you hink there making any money from it like good money not just a few hundred euro at the odd appearence in the back of some club or pubjust wondering who is the best rapper so far that has come out of ireland if you were to judge from who has been the most successfull and not just who you like the most

Toasty

collie is pretty gud!
he's from dublin!
have u heard of him? if so what you think of him? (musically)

sugardaddy

yes i did hear him and i wasnt empressed when i did.i would how ever give him another listen if i remembered what website i heard him ondo you kno were i could hear him again but i doubt my mind will be changed ,even musically if i remember right it wasnt much to be impressed about though

Toasty

sugardaddy wrote:

yes i did hear him and i wasnt empressed when i did.i would how ever give him another listen if i remembered what website i heard him ondo you kno were i could hear him again but i doubt my mind will be changed ,even musically if i remember right it wasnt much to be impressed about though

i saw him at o2 and thought he was pretty gud!!
its the dub accent that throws u!

Orizio

Collie is terrible.Full stop.

buzzandwiks

shut up silly pants collie is the owner of cool4scool and is not naff hes rad, ya get me

Zombrex

The problem with something like current Irish rappers (and to some extent rappers in the UK and France) is that they just try and do the whole "we are tough gangstaz! no doubt" think and copy the style and attitute of black US rappers. And it looks stupid because they aren't black and they aren't from LA.

Even white US rappers like the Besties, Eminem and Buck 65 who are taken seriously, have to do something a bit different.

Advice for any Irish rappers. Try and be original, come up with an original style and topics to rap about.

And for feck sake stop doing the "frown at the camera and look 'ard" thing.

I don't think much of The Streets, but I think something like that would work a lot better in Ireland than a rapper trying to be the next Irish Ice Cube

Klimseven

The problem with something like current Irish rappers (and to some extent rappers in the UK and France) is that they just try and do the whole "we are tough gangstaz! no doubt" think and copy the style and attitute of black US rappers. And it looks stupid because they aren't black and they aren't from LA

wow, you're so off the mark there it's not even funny. Don't make assumptions based on...absolutely nothing whatsoever, you just embarass yourself. Emcees from the countries mentioned are 99% of the time totally reflective of their scene/native land, especially UK and France, jesus. The main reason these emcess GET $hit is for BEING themselves and speakin wit 'that accent', etc. Jesus, have you ever actually heard any emcees from these countries? If so I'd really like to know who..

nolly

well lads to be honest the people who are "making it" in the irish hiphop scene
arent all act hard and gangsta types like yer man said
its the complete oppitsite

if Collie isnt your thing, try MJEX they are the best thing in the irish scene and imo their the best in Europe

and Rob Kelly is the only person from outside the US to compete in the massive upcoming hiphop competition 16 bars
and DJ Flip is making a whole EP with Buck 65..

Sm0ke

irish hiphop is in its birth stages, we need to let it grow and mature, then we can embrace it once it figures out where its heading, we have to wait until we have our own sound and style, just try all irish hiphop and we'll get better with time.

Zombrex

Klimseven wrote:

wow, you're so off the mark there it's not even funny. Don't make assumptions based on...absolutely nothing whatsoever, you just embarass yourself.

Wow yes I'm convinced at how wrong I am ... maybe you can find me a few promotional pictures of a few current Irish hip hop artists who aren't on a housing estate wearing hoodies looking "'ard"

nolly wrote:

well lads to be honest the people who are "making it" in the irish hiphop scene
arent all act hard and gangsta types like yer man said
its the complete oppitsite

Well I'm not sure how you define "making it", but that was kinda my point. So few are making it and most people couldn't name a Irish hip hop act other than House of Pain :rolleyes:

Kristok

The problem with irish rappers is they are rubbish. Im not even messing they are rubbish 100% of them. The only ones you hear of are the ones who make songs that take the piss and get on the radio for a week but only the way goldie lookin chain got on the radio not the way that will get them past gimmick status. Its not against all odds that some day in the distant future someone will make it big but not from the current load of rubbish thats out. I doubt its likly to happen the irish accent is horrible for this thing of ours.

Klimseven

Wow yes I'm convinced at how wrong I am ... maybe you can find me a few promotional pictures of a few current Irish hip hop artists who aren't on a housing estate wearing hoodies looking "'ard"

you said that Irish emcees act like they "are tough gangstaz! no doubt" and like they are "black" and from "LA". Since when has being from a housing estate and speaking with a Dublin accent been any of those things. Have you ever considered that these people actually ARE from housing estates? So they're rapping about what they know, what they live...just like I said. You said they were trying to be something they weren't and copy american hip-hop, which none of that stuff is...the exact opposite in fact...

nolly

Kristok wrote:

The problem with irish rappers is they are rubbish. Im not even messing they are rubbish 100% of them. The only ones you hear of are the ones who make songs that take the piss and get on the radio for a week but only the way goldie lookin chain got on the radio not the way that will get them past gimmick status. Its not against all odds that some day in the distant future someone will make it big but not from the current load of rubbish thats out. I doubt its likly to happen the irish accent is horrible for this thing of ours.

irish hip hop is just like all genres
it personal tastes man

ill again refer you to MJEX (messiah j and the expert)
http://www.myspace.com/messiahjandtheexpert

manonthemoon

I remember hearing a few tracks from 'Creative Control' (Or something) Is that their name. They had some real banging tunes. Are they Irish?

manonthemoon

Just to add to last post. They had a video used to play on 'No Disco'. Animated video. Two guys in a van or something. Anyone know what I am on about?

kkposse

i liked Krisma's single, pretty good first time effort, very suprised 2 hear she is just 12, one to look out for in the future, gangsta rap is getting old and boring, people are sick of bling bling, same old same old, its time rap started reinventing itself again!:v:

manonthemoon

Just found out that Creative Controle are now known as "Messiah J & The Expert" or MJEx.


They are very good. And they are Irish.

Oh, dont mind me, I will just natter away here to myself

Motm

Kristok

That kid Krisma is terrible shes getting on crap like the late late show as a freak show not cause she is talaneted.

Ay Cee

www.thegudmen.com

No "In THe Hood" Pictures

No American Wannabes

No Gangsta Posturing

spacecoyote

Kristok wrote:

That kid Krisma is terrible shes getting on crap like the late late show as a freak show not cause she is talaneted.

did you get up on the wrong side of bed this morning?

Cut the girl some slack, she's only 12 or something. everyone has to start somewhere.

and your the hip-pop fan. 50 cent is a pop artist, and a lot of young irish pop artists get their break on the likes of the late late show.its all publicity.

making a few generalisations earlier too about all irish hip-hop being sh1te! irish hip-hop may have a long way to go yet, but theres plenty of decent irish emcees and dj's making some decent music.

get off your high horse...collie's album is better than anything i've ever heard 50 drop, and the homemade bombs mixtape has plenty of artists who put g unit to shame!

Ay Cee

Although probably not put in the best manner I think Kristok was commenting on the fact that Krisma was on the Late Late more for being twelve than anything else.

Executive Steve

spacecoyote wrote:

the homemade bombs mixtape has plenty of artists who put g unit to shame!

i disagree. i thought it was dire bar one or two decent moments... production was weak and chaotic apart from the needlz tune which was class... i'm not hating on irish hip hop in any way shape or form i've heard better off peoples myspace pages than i did on that cd... maybe i need to give it a few more listens but i was quite disappointed. glad i bought it though - these people need your support.

then again, Bassbin released their "first bite" cd compilation a few years ago, a showcase of irish drum and bass productions... the world laughed - five years later they're one of the biggest and best known non uk labels in jungle and they're getting played by dj's all over the world... point is that it takes time for these things to grow, if drum and bass artists can make their mark in a far more restricted and saturated market than hip hop then surely irish rappers can make their mark in hip hop???

with our rich cultural tradition of poetry and literature i'd be surprised if sooner or later there wasnt a hell of a lot more irish hip hop being taken much more seriously than it is now...

[i've never heard a g-unit tune - just like to point that out]

Kristok

spacecoyote wrote:

get off your high horse...collie's album is better than anything i've ever heard 50 drop, and the homemade bombs mixtape has plenty of artists who put g unit to shame!

Well all you seem to do is try to provoke an argument dont know why 50 cent is even being brought up. If you like kirisma so much go out and buy her single if one comes out but seeing as these irish rappers dont sell id imagine your not going to do that although im sure your going to disagree and claim youd buy it.

spacecoyote

Kristok wrote:

Well all you seem to do is try to provoke an argument dont know why 50 cent is even being brought up. If you like kirisma so much go out and buy her single if one comes out but seeing as these irish rappers dont sell id imagine your not going to do that although im sure your going to disagree and claim youd buy it.

Look i'm sorry if i have deeply offended you and you're taste in music, i just felt that your comment was a bit harsh about all irish hip-hop being sh1te.i don't think that krisma girl is particularly good at all, and i probably wouldn't buy her single, but i'm not in the habit of buying singles anyway. i'd give it a listen though, and if it was decent i'd buy it. i'm not trying to provoke any arguments, was just wondering why there was so much venom in your post on the topic.

there are not many,if any Irish rappers making it, but i don't put it down to a complete lack of talent in the industry. the money is not there and there are no major irish record companies or producers who are willing to back a proper marketing and promotional campaign for an irish rapper or rap group. theres not enough demand there. we won't have an eminem or a jay-z, or even roots manuva in ireland, even if the talent is there, for a long time, because the money is not being invested yet.

Kristok

I dont care if you dont like my taste in music im sure I dont like yours. Why should I cut the girl any slack shes public property the second she says she wants to be a rapper and deserves what she gets when she comes out with rubbish like ive heard her come out with. She is getting attention cause she is 12, as hard as it is to admit ive heard better irish rappers (only slightly better mind) why are they not on the late late show ? why are they not on spin ? cause they are a load of rubbish but unlike kirisma they are not the little cute kid trying to be a rapper.

In one thread your saying money dosnt matter in rap and here your saying it does. If they had any talent they would have someone signing them, do you think noone is listening to them when they go on before kanye and 50 from their camps incase there is talent to be discovered. People are listening to them and laughing not giving them props. Look at that girl from england that jay z signed. Now ive no idea if she is any good but she got jays attention and he signed her so it dosnt matter if we have any major labels most irish rock groups dont get signed to irish labels they go abroad but the difference is they usually have some talent. Sure didnt louis walsh sign mumbas brother years ago when he was going to be a rapper and thats as big a label your going to get. No irish rapper is going to make it for the simple fact that they dont have anything to talk about, songs about the dole might get you on the radio for a few spins but not because people want to hear it but because they are laughing at you not with you. You cant come from the point of view of someone from a ghetto or tell stories of what youve seen when you live in a country with virtually 100% employment and people who are on the dole for whatever reason dont just survive they get enough money to live a nice life unlike people in america who barly get enough money to feed themselves if they dont have a job. If your rapping about how hard you are you sound like a scumbag and if you talk about selling drugs your just going to sound like a wigga. They also are impossible to understand, im sorry all you wannabe rappers but when even irish people have to ask what you just said americans or whatever are going to have no hope. Someone one day might be able to rap through the accent and actually make a song people like but not a single one of the idiotic rappers ive heard from ireland have even an ounce of talent and if they where from anywhere other than ireland youd be laughing at them instead of pretending to like them, the only people who are really into it are the people doing and anyone else is some fool considering wasting their time doing it too. If you really love hip hop get into production or dj'ing you might have a hope at that side.

spacecoyote

i think you're missing the point of the thread, its about irish rappers making it, which essentially comes down to money doesn't it? in the other thread i said that making money does not make you a top rapper, but it does make you a successful rapper. i also said that money did matter in rap, and that every rapper wanted to make money, but that it wasn't the most important thing to some of them. but thats off topic so back to this thread. making money doesn't mean you're talented, it means you're "making it"! and the money i was talking about in the post above, if you had read carefully, was money from backers, not money from sales. my point was that, in order for an irish rapper to really "make it" there would need to be money invested in the Irish rap industry, which there is not!

Ay Cee

I'm not the type to call people names via the net but Kristok you really are a tool!

You don't like Irish Hip Hop, we get the point! You can take comfort "knowing" that 50 Cent runs Hip Hop. You don't worry about the rest of us, we'll carry on with out you.

Kristok

And if youd read my post carefully I said there is no need for any investment in any irish industry. If they are talented theres are tousands of american labels looking for rappers all the time, but they are not tallanted so noone is going to sign them. The smple fact is anyone of us who have listened to rap for a while can come up with the same rubbish as these so called rappers come out with. The industry is about money that dosnt mean every town needs a rap industry people can bring their talent to the labels just like rock bands do.

Anyway if you have an opinion on what makes a top rapper start a thread about it ill be happy to talk to you about it.

Kristok

Ay Cee wrote:

I'm not the type to call people names via the net but Kristok you really are a tool!

You don't like Irish Hip Hop, we get the point! You can take comfort "knowing" that 50 Cent runs Hip Hop. You don't worry about the rest of us, we'll carry on with out you.

Hey if you guys can express your opinion in threads about 50 cent etc I can express mine here, dont get all pissed off like a child if I offend you im so sorry for indirectly slagging you off sometimes the truth hurts.

If im wrong how about actually formulating a come back instead of behaving like a child.

Ay Cee

Acting like a child? You're the one calling ALL Irish rapper idiots and talentless.

You're stereotyping. I mean it says you're location is Finglas. So by your rationale I could assume you only get net access down the job club because people stereotype Finglas as being a kip full of skangers.

You're expressing your opinion, fair enough. But I've done enough gigs around the country to know what you are saying isn't valid.

Only Saturday night I was talking to some "middle aged" by which I mean 50+ people who bought a few of our CD's. They went on to tell me how I'd "converted" them because they don't like rap.

Because of the rap music you listen to you assume everyone needs to be talking about the ghetto or drug dealing or whatever. Why would Irish people talk about stuff like that?!

There are thousands of hip hop groups who steer away from all that. They've nothing to do with Shady/ Aftermath/ G Unit so you might not have heard of them. Whoops, there I go sterotyping again.

You think because rappers aren't selling millions of albums they're not talented. As has been pointed out repeatedly, success doesn't always equal talent.

Ay Cee

Oh yeah, as a side note. I turned down a deal with Sony a few years ago.

spacecoyote

just out of curiosity, what age are you Kristok?

Samantha Mumbas brother was 10 or something and he came out singing Skee-lo's "i wish" which can hardly be classed as an attempt at launching a hip-hop career. that was just louis walsh making some quick cash off the back of the kids name. the mere fact that Spin Fm is your reference point for decisions on top rappers says enough for me.

Ay cee, theres no point in continuing an argument with him over it, you are obviously wrong. if you don't drive an escalade with 24" rims and have a "crib" in the Hamptons you obviously have no talent and are definitely not making it!

Ay Cee

I know

But I have been on Spin FM (am I a top rapper now?) and Today Fm and 2Fm and FM 104.

Another side note, I was the first Irish rapper played on daytime Spin, all that without a deal! I'm so untalented

spacecoyote

yeah i think that gets you up the first rung of the ladder on your way to becoming a top rapper. but in order to be THE top rapper you have to 1st create your own clothing line, then release your own line of Reebok trainers and then your own jewelry line. Until then, i think the technical term for you is "wanksta" or some other such invented drivel like that

Ay Cee

Ah OK, so what you are saying is I need to do all those things which have absolutely nothing to do with music and then when I make money off them THEN I'm a successful RAPPER?!

I was just concentrating on making songs. Kristok was right...I am an idiot!

spacecoyote

Now you're getting the hang of things. Maybe you could invent a life story thats really cool and gangsta, and then star in the movie about it too!!

But seriously, fair play to you and everyone else putting their necks and reps on the line to promote hip-hop in Ireland. look at the U.S. back in the late 70s adn early 80s, if it hadn't been for Kool Herc, grand wizard theodore, flash, etc...pioneering the industry Kristok wouldn't have his 50 cents, etc... to listen to. even if you guys don't have all the success you might hope for, you're paving the way for future Irish artists to make names for themselves hopefully

Ay Cee

Well I grew up in a council estate and I'm from a broken home. That's instant street cred right?

Cheers dude.

The thing people like Kristok don't understand is that despite (or maybe in spite of) what people like him say, it's not going to stop us. Well certainly not me anyway.

We do don't do this to get rich. Sure if we could make some serious money off it that would be great, but if we don't we're not just gonna stop.

It's called doing it for the love of it. Doing it becuase you can do it. Doing it because when you get off stage and some one says "it's great to hear Irish rappers with Irish accents talking about things I can relate to" that drives you on.

I don't make music to try and convert people or to make them like me. I've had I don't know how many diss tracks aimed at me. I make music because I want to. If no one ever heard any of my material, I'd still make it.

Executive Steve

Ay Cee wrote:

We do don't do this to get rich. Sure if we could make some serious money off it that would be great, but if we don't we're not just gonna stop.

It's called doing it for the love of it. Doing it becuase you can do it. Doing it because when you get off stage and some one says "it's great to hear Irish rappers with Irish accents talking about things I can relate to" that drives you on.

I don't make music to try and convert people or to make them like me. I've had I don't know how many diss tracks aimed at me. I make music because I want to. If no one ever heard any of my material, I'd still make it.

well i must say, this thread has made me want to go straight home and check out some of your stuff mate, i'll have a scout around all the links etc you have lying around here and i'll give you some feedback once i've checked it all out.

you do many gigs in dublin?

Ay Cee

All of our gigs up until the last couple of months were in Dublin, The Village, Crawdaddy etc.

We started out the opposite of every other band. All other bands start out playing the local venues and hopefully get to play those venues. Being a hip hop band we started out supporting the American MC's and nobody knowing locally that we were doing it.

We played in a local pub on Saturday night which would be more along the lines of Fibber Mc Gee's rock/ indie/ covers bands. The place was wall to wall! We'd to do two encores. Once people get used to it they'll accept it. I even had doubts that the owner would pay up once he seen what we did but he did and he wants back again.

www.thegudmen.com has all the latest audio and some live video footage too.

Kristok

spacecoyote wrote:

just out of curiosity, what age are you Kristok?

Just out of curiosity why should that matter ? if im six or sixty its none of your concern. Why do you keep bringing up that I like 50 cent ? ive already said I do maby you should get over it your like a broken record.

Im laughing my ass off reading all that rubbish, you turned down a deal with sony then yes your a fool in that case, or maby the deal was so bad because they didnt think you had any talent but just incase they offered you some slave type deal which luckly for them you didnt sign cause as we can see years later your not really doing much other than arguing how great you are on a message board. And your converting 50+ year olds thats it you must be amazing cause we all know how in touch with youth culture people old enough to be your father can be.

Make a demo tape of your best work and get a good record deal and get regular spins in clubs and on the radio and become something until then you can talk about how great you are till the cows come home but as the orignal question of the thread asked. No there are no irish rappers making it, period. If im wrong show me make it big, oh wait youve tried for years and noone wants to listen to you.

And yes maby I was a bit harsh calling all Irish rapper idiots, apart from your childish name calling you dont come accross as an idiot so sorry for stereotyping your people, I know id hate it if you thought of Finglas as being a kip full of skangers, not that anyone other than people from the south side of the liffy would even say something as stupid as that :rolleyes: . What I should have said is Irish rappers are talentless and deluded for thinking they are going to make it.

spacecoyote

just figured you were quite young because of the attitude you've been displaying, the fact you've been quite personally insulting towards people and you're quite immature opinions on the criteria which qualify a rapper as talented or good!

Ay Cee

I think it's fairly obvious how immature he is SC. The fact that he can't see past his nose is blatant proof of that.

Kristok say what you will, I tried to put my points across in a mature fashion. It's as blatant as your hatred for all things Irish in Hip Hop that you're never going to admit you're wrong or accept any point of view that disagrees with your own.

Where's Mak when you need him

Kristok

I love the guys going around calling names like kids on a playground instead of making any attempt at replying calling me immature. Want me to admit im wrong ? how many records are you selling ? def jam ringing your phone off the hook ? I dont need to admit anything no one cares about irish rap most people laugh when they hear anything like that on the radio and the ones who dont are in shock when they hear it. People like me are not holding you back the lack of interest is.

Ay Cee

"most people laugh"

I keep forgetting you know most people.

You just went and proved my point.

Kristok

Ay Cee wrote:

"most people laugh"

I keep forgetting you know most people.

You just went and proved my point.

And you have just proved mine you cant discuss anything you just try to make little funny remarks and dont make any points.

thirtysix

I think to realisitically examine Irish hiphop and indeed any other sort of hiphop that cannot be considered mainstream, one much examine it as a niche market. Within the realms of language/accent/historicial divisions, outside its local market Irish Hiphop is an export and will can only help to fufil a certain niche, how many units does French/UK/German etc rap shift outside their potential power bases? foreign hiphop works much the same way as underground hiphop, it doesnt make as much money becuase its not as heavily marketed, comparing the number of modern underground artists CD's such as zion i, madlib planet asia etc etc to the number of foreign hiphop CD's such as Kool Savas, Saian Supa Crew, MC Solaar in a typical CD store such as HMV and their really isnt a large amount of difference, most disparity being made up by a language barrier which is somewhat mellowed by the increase in English hiphop recently.

To claim Irish artists are not respected for acting like gangsters etc is plain silly, of course their not, however then again not many Irish artists do, in England and France this is much more understandable due to the heavy level of guncrime and violence that play a part in the council estates and Baniliues of the respective countries. Ireland's rappers are possibly 20 odd years behind England and Frances, this is for a number of reasons, not least due to immigration, this is reflected between the disparity in numbers again between northern and southern artists, immigration is only flourishing now into the North now that violence has ceased.

i'll pos tof more of my arguement later, but im kinda inna rush now, by the way check my stuff, rough demos mostly but an ep is on the way, no gangsterism's or grimy beats besides one for a battle

www.myspace.com/mes

Shaymin

Now that I've landed allow me to hit the ground running [my mouth that is]. First and foremost I can't say I'm on the inside of the scene over there in Ireland because I'm over here in America. This next line is for all the negativity I'm viewing. Now I've networked with a lot of Irish Rappers and Irish Hip Hop Scenesters in Ireland and I've received nothing but respect. So I want to take this opportunity as an outsider and say that Irish Hip Hop has real potential. I'm thoroughly impressed with a lot of emcees I've heard. Collie, SDK, Ammunition, Mes, Barfly Records, Urbanize, etc..Their is some real potential and talent and isn't it funny that most who flap their gums in a negaitve fashion usually are possessers of no talent. Stop guzzling the Haterade because I'll tell all of y'all this much. My grandmother originally came from Ennaskillen and as long as I have Celtic Blood running through my veins I'll do whatever I can to help Irish Hip Hop get the credibility it deserves. I've already sent some of my tracks via email over to Iamstop to be considered for remixing, I've networked heavily and have plans to collaborate with SDK within the next year, I think Give It Up by Collie is some of the most original stuff I've heard,Man!! I could go on and on as far as having good to say. Yet this negativity I've viewed is all to familiar in the sense that the scene over here in Boston, Ma. is very similar. So if anyone wants to network come see me here, Irishhiphop.com,myspace.com/shaymin, and shaymin_1@hotmail.com Hip Hop at it's finest is a movement that can only stop itself.So let no obstacles stop you. No matter where you live!! Straight Up........

Collie Collins

i'd just like to say, in me own defence, that....






















my da can beat up your da!!!

Makaveli

Kristok wrote:

I know id hate it if you thought of Finglas as being a kip full of skangers, not that anyone other than people from the south side of the liffy would even say something as stupid as that :rolleyes:

Do you honestly think southsiders care one little bit about Finglas Westsiiiiide?
But you know well done on trying to play down one generalisation you made only to turn around and make another one in the same paragraph.

You're ignorance to Hip-Hop shines through once more with your nuggets of wisdom about how Irish people have nothing to rap about, unless they are on the dole and even then they can get by comfortably in life. You don't have to come from the hood/ghetto/have no money/be homeless/sell drugs/take drugs/shoot people/get shot at/fight/wear bling/pimp women/drive an suv sitting on 24s etc to rap. Just because the rap you listen to deals with this subject matter doesn't mean it all does. Fair enough it is your choice as to what you listen to but where do you get off telling people what they can and can't do?

As to are Irish rappers making it, in the sense of major US artists clearly not, but as said by thirtysix it's a niche market and it's really in it's infancy. Why are they not signed by the artists that they support at gigs? Well they're artists not presidents or c.e.o.s they got a chance to play as support the more they do that the bigger their name gets. How many one hit wonders are out there? Just because you're not snapped up straight away doesn't mean you can't be signed at some stage. It's not even about being signed, plenty of American artists have started their own labels and sell their own music online or at gigs they are making it but because they don't have a music video on MTV you would debase that fact.

AyCee has already said it, he'd love it if he could live off his music but even if he can't he's not going to stop making music. You do it for the love not for the money, anybody who starts out looking to make a quick buck will fail miserably, if you have no heart for it you wont last.

spacecoyote

here here