Lord Laird

casanova_kid

Who do you think he reckon the IRA moles in RTE are? Is this man the most bigoted man in Ireland?

rsynnott

Er, bigoted how?

(Short shameful confession: I always misread his name and imagine something involving Mary Harney)

Victor

Wouldn't that be Lady Lard?

I think Laird is a crackpot, but at times he pokes things other people want covered, so he may have his uses.

Blackjack

have you any links to this story?

Flex

I think this might be it http://www.ureader.co.uk/msg/1380239.aspx

07 January 2006
RTE last night hit back at claims by an Ulster politician that the Republic's
broadcaster was full of IRA sympathisers.

Lord Laird used parliamentary privilege in the House of Lords to make the
allegations that two senior officials at the national broadcaster had what he
described as "extreme republican" backgrounds.


The UUP peer claimed that "very senior officials" in RTE were IRA moles yet
failed to make an official complaint against the station despite his public
allegations.


But RTE said last night: "We cannot think who he could be referring to."


Alleging infiltration of the southern media by IRA and Sinn Fein, Lord Laird
singled out the station for criticism.


"That much of the media is now infiltrated and influenced by Sinn Fein/IRA can
be seen in the highly negative reaction in sections of the southern media, in
particular the State broadcaster RTE, against the Minister for Justice, Michael
McDowell, when he outed and denounced Frank Connolly...," Lord Laird said during
a debate on the new anti-terrorism law for Northern Ireland.

"It is not a coincidence that instead of being lauded for his actions, the
Minister for Justice of the Irish Republic found himself the subject of a
campaign of vilification in the Irish media. The worst example of biased
coverage has been that of RTE.


"In view of the past two weeks, perhaps it is time that two very senior RTE
officials explained their extreme republican backgrounds," he added.



Last night, the Ulster Unionist peer remained unrepentant about the comments.

And he vowed to name the men "at the earliest opportunity."

He said: "Questions have to be asked about why RTE consistently takes a Sinn
Fein/IRA attitude in their views and in particular about Michael McDowell.

"I've got to wait for an opportunity but I will name them in the House of Lords
and I will talk about their backgrounds the first chance I get."

When asked about RTE's denials about the allegations, Lord Laird replied: "Well
they would say that, wouldn't they?"

LostinBlanch

Well I'd think anyone to the left of Ian Paisley and err someone else of course.

Interesting to see who his probable mole is seeing as he was saying how sources down here were gining him information. He got it straight from the horses ass

He said: "Questions have to be asked about why RTE consistently takes a Sinn Fein/IRA attitude in their views and in particular about Michael McDowell.

Have we moved on from SF/MI5 to PD/DUP?

Didn't the PDs used to trot out the line that RTE was full of Workers Party moles? Yeah that showed them. But they can be sure they'll get it when the WP gets into power. Oh wait. . . .

oscarBravo

Victor wrote:

Wouldn't that be Lady Lard?

That's no way to talk about the hot fox.

someone quoting Lord Laird wrote:

And he vowed to name the men "at the earliest opportunity."

Um. Wouldn't that, technically speaking, be immediately after making the vow?

ghostdancer

:rolleyes:


i wonder if he's friends with Maurice "Hurricane Katrina was sent by God to punish New Orleans gays" Mills....


he couldn't actually name who he's talking about instead of throwing around accusations? maybe if he concentrated on getting stormont back up and running instead of wasting everyone's time with this bollox it'd be more beneficial to everyone.

Snickers Man

Isn't that Lord Laird who's now in charge of the Ulster Scots Agency? Ie by definition an utter crackpot.

Sorry, let me translate.

Isn't thon fella heed mon of th'Ulster Scots Eegency? You ken, themmuns that want tae have us all slabberin' away like yon fellas in eastern Norlinn Airlann?

I would love to see one of the trilingual opinion polls that they will have to bring out in Norlinn Airlann (I'm not making that spelling up by the way. That really is Northern Ireland in Ulster Scots)

Could you imagine?

Do you
a) strongly agree.......................Aye Rightly

slightly agree........................Och, ye never know

c) have no opinion.....................Couldn't be arsed, hi.

d) mildly disagree.......................Away and sh1te

e) strongly disagree....................Navurr, Navurr, Navurr

Blackjack

Snickers Man wrote:

Isn't that Lord Laird who's now in charge of the Ulster Scots Agency? Ie by definition an utter crackpot.

Sorry, let me translate.

Isn't thon fella heed mon of th'Ulster Scots Eegency? You ken, themmuns that want tae have us all slabberin' away like yon fellas in eastern Norlinn Airlann?

I would love to see one of the trilingual opinion polls that they will have to bring out in Norlinn Airlann (I'm not making that spelling up by the way. That really is Northern Ireland in Ulster Scots)

Could you imagine?

Do you
a) strongly agree.......................Aye Rightly

slightly agree........................Och, ye never know

c) have no opinion.....................Couldn't be arsed, hi.

d) mildly disagree.......................Away and sh1te

e) strongly disagree....................Navurr, Navurr, Navurr

LostinBlanch

Snickers Mon,

Cheers for putting me in mind of that, it had gone out of ma mind so it had. But isn't that thon agency that heed yer man was lifted for kiddy fiddlin in 'Merica? So wuldn't that make Laird Laird a known associate of a peedofile? Unless this is all yon Republican propoganda, and she was actually a double agent?

This Lallans lark is easy, and the grammatical structure is remarkably similar to English for a distinct language Now are they still paying grants for this kind of thing?

smashey

Lord Laird would use Parliamentary privilege knowing full well that no libel case can follow. Mebbe he's naw rite in the heed.

Snickersman: Your ulster scot paragraph gave me the best laugh I have had in a long time.

Flex

LostinBlanch wrote:

Snickers Mon,

Cheers for putting me in mind of that, it had gone out of ma mind so it had. But isn't that thon agency that heed yer man was lifted for kiddy fiddlin in 'Merica? So wuldn't that make Laird Laird a known associate of a peedofile? Unless this is all yon Republican propoganda, and she was actually a double agent?

This Lallans lark is easy, and the grammatical structure is remarkably similar to English for a distinct language Now are they still paying grants for this kind of thing?

ever read any articles on wikipedia in ulster-scots? Iv done it a couple of times and i can easily understand most of the words in the articles i read. i swear its like english being spoken by a guy with a real strong scots accent and spelt phoenetically tbh or maybe iv developed a sudden flair for languages. pity ulster-scots wasnt an available language for the leaving cert course, couldve gotten an A1 or A2 lol

Snickers Man

Here's a great piece of publicly funded institution speak from the Ulster Scots Agency Web site.

Hilary Avery [director of the Ulster-Scots Curriculum Development Unit at Stranmillis University College in Belfast ] explains: “..The aim is not to teach Ulster-Scots as a language, but to recognise the rich oral tradition which exists in many parts of Ulster where Ulster-Scots expressions are part of everyday speech. "

So it's not a language at all, just a source of 'expressions' which have made their way into everyday speech in Ulster. A bit like 'G'wan oudat!' in Cork and 'Gerrup the yard' in Dublin.


If you doubt that why not take the test of your ability to speak Ulster Scots at the same Website. There are three options for each word: English, Ulster Dialect and Ulster Scots. Count how many times two of the three options are to all intents and purpose identical.

Separate language my foot!!!

LostinBlanch

This is where Parity of Esteem becomes ridiculous. Ulster Scots isn't a language, it is at most a dialect, the grammatical structure is practically identical to English.

Of course the fact that the Taigs have a strong culture which historically goes back at least 5,000 years (Newgrange has been dated to 3,000 BC approx), and a vibrant language (in the North anyway) means that they have won the cultural war.

In a feeble attempt to make it seem like Unionists actually have a culture worth the name*, there have been attempts to create one. This has ranged from extreme revisionism of myth and history [Cuchullain as Loyalist hero :eek: ] to "creating" their own language. Both governments passed a blind eye to this as part of the parity of esteem element of the GFA. They couldn't be seen to give all the grant money to the Nationalists so any half "decent" scheme on the Unionist side would qualify for grant money. Easy money too by the sounds of it.

*Of course Ulster Protestants have some culture but very little of what is known as "high culture" i.e. Literature, Music, Dance etc when compared to us down here.

Flex

LostinBlanch wrote:

This is where Parity of Esteem becomes ridiculous. Ulster Scots isn't a language, it is at most a dialect, the grammatical structure is practically identical to English.

Of course the fact that the Taigs have a strong culture which historically goes back at least 5,000 years (Newgrange has been dated to 3,000 BC approx), and a vibrant language (in the North anyway) means that they have won the cultural war.

In a feeble attempt to make it seem like Unionists actually have a culture worth the name*, there have been attempts to create one. This has ranged from extreme revisionism of myth and history [Cuchullain as Loyalist hero :eek: ] to "creating" their own language. Both governments passed a blind eye to this as part of the parity of esteem element of the GFA. They couldn't be seen to give all the grant money to the Nationalists so any half "decent" scheme on the Unionist side would qualify for grant money. Easy money too by the sounds of it.

*Of course Ulster Protestants have some culture but very little of what is known as "high culture" i.e. Literature, Music, Dance etc when compared to us down here.

Thats something that really and truly pisses me off more than anything else. Unionists trying to claim parts of our ancestory and culture (ie. Cuchullain, the Red Branch Knights, the whole Ulster Cycle from our legendary cycles) as theirs because they live in the area where those events happened and dont have a strong culture of their own. Its the same as the white man in America trying to take credit for things done by Native American Indians centuries before white people set foot in the American continents.

Zombrex

casanova_kid wrote:

Who do you think he reckon the IRA moles in RTE are? Is this man the most bigoted man in Ireland?

The funny thing is is that SF think that RTE hate them, claiming that RTE always air Michael "Gerry Adam used to molested cats" McDowell latest statements at face value with no argument, and that they have it in for a southern S/F government

So really RTE can't win, except you can kinda take it they are doing something right if everyone hates them.

LordSutch

I think he might have a point about some of the Irish media, take for example the Dublin Radio Station "Newstalk 106" which is obviously a pro Sinn Fein mouthpiece in the City! and with recent revelations that the Stations Editor is a close associate of frank Connollys and is on the board of the 'Centre for Public Investigation' which in turn has a question mark hanging over it re the IRA Columbia three false passport carry on ..........................

LostinBlanch

Arthur

Dunphy had Lord Laird on this morning and he gave him a clean bill of health, mind you he did say unfortunately!

I never thought that Newstalk was a SF mouthpiece though, just that Dunphy can be a bloody sycophant when he's interviewing some people. As for Damien Kiberd I never thought of him as a fellow traveller. But I will keep my eyes open

And as for the CPI I think that it was doing a necessary job, but the powers that be used any and every trick in the book to shut it down, even to the point of seriously undermining democracy and the rule of law. Something that Lord Laird is also threatening to do. Funny how birds of a feather seem to flock together isn't it?

Now relax and get your self a couple of arthur j's

LostinBlanch

Flex wrote:

Its the same as the white man in America trying to take credit for things done by Native American Indians centuries before white people set foot in the American continents.

Never mind the fact that Cuchullain was a Louthman! But joking aside the whole thing is that the Unionists realise that they never had a chance of gaining international sympathy the way that the Nationalists did. Their (cultural) story was never strong enough.

The fact is that there are more cultures than there is available land (and resources) worldwide which is a major reason why you have wars like in the middle east, balkans etc. The Balkan one is interesting in that the the Bosnians spoke Serbo Croat until they got their own country, then "Bosnian" officially became an official language probably similar situation to "Ulster Scots" above, another way of cementing a claim to land.

Apologies to any Bosnians if I am wrong!

Blackjack

LostinBlanch wrote:

This is where Parity of Esteem becomes ridiculous. Ulster Scots isn't a language, it is at most a dialect, the grammatical structure is practically identical to English.

Of course the fact that the Taigs have a strong culture which historically goes back at least 5,000 years (Newgrange has been dated to 3,000 BC approx), and a vibrant language (in the North anyway) means that they have won the cultural war.

In a feeble attempt to make it seem like Unionists actually have a culture worth the name*, there have been attempts to create one. This has ranged from extreme revisionism of myth and history [Cuchullain as Loyalist hero :eek: ] to "creating" their own language. Both governments passed a blind eye to this as part of the parity of esteem element of the GFA. They couldn't be seen to give all the grant money to the Nationalists so any half "decent" scheme on the Unionist side would qualify for grant money. Easy money too by the sounds of it.

*Of course Ulster Protestants have some culture but very little of what is known as "high culture" i.e. Literature, Music, Dance etc when compared to us down here.

Now now, we must respect their Cultures and ways. After all, they have the Ulster Scots translation of the "Ulster-Scots Agency" (it's called Tha Boord o Ulstér-Scotch), showing what a huge difference there is between English and Ulster-Scots.

Almost as much of a difference as there is between the queens English and Cockney Rhyming Slang or Jive, except the latter 2 you will at times be stuck to understand.

A Dub in Glasgo

Have a look at the Scottish Parliment website... nearly as embarrassing as this Ulster-Scots as a language nonsense.

Blackjack

A Dub in Glasgo wrote:

Have a look at the Scottish Parliment website... nearly as embarrassing as this Ulster-Scots as a language nonsense.

It's almost like those who type in textspeak, but with a number of spelling errors.

smashey

I had a er debate with kilsally about this last week. The thread has since been 'tidied up and locked'. Basically I told them that a lot of people along the border here in Donegal would use some ulster scot phrases in normal conversation. However these people are for the most part nationalist minded and how did they factor that into the equation as the ulster scots society is predominantly unionist. He told me to form our own society and avail of any grants etc. that were available. This I informed him is what I believe they have done and told him if they were forever going on about being the queen's subjects then surely they should speak the queen's english. Well he then quoted european parliament recognition for ulster scots, and tied it all up to the united irishmen movement and a corrupt church of england biased government in dublin in the 1700s and everything else he could think of. I can see were the culture stealing idea comes from.

Houl yer whisht mon!

LostinBlanch

I know we've gone off thread slightly but what's next? A Dortspeak* agency? Well if Ulster Scots can get one then so should Glenageary roysh. Hands off guys the idea is mine, unless you know about raising grant money .

After much historical research it has come to light that Dortspeakers comprise a different cultural grouping which has been entirely ignored in favour of Tallaghtfornians, Ballybrackers and Northsiders (except Howth and Clontorf) and all boggers. Urgent action is being taken to redress this shameful state of affairs and we have been assured that the european parliament will take note of the existence of Dortspeak and include it in it's list of recognised languages. . . . .


*We can include Dublin 4 and 6 as far as Ranelagh in this even though they don't have the dort but they do have the Luas. And who's constituency is this? That's roysh Michael McDowell, Lord Lairds favourite TD. Funny how we got back to him isn't it?

muffler

Heard a good joke recently about the man that was attending an ulster scots meeting and stopped off in the diner of the hotel

On going up to select his dessert and eying up the variety of sumptious dishes in front of him he pointed to this flan like offering and asked the waitress -- "Is that a cake or a meringue" (pronounced merang). The waitress said "no, you're right"

Say it a couple of times and it will come to you;)

Kilsally

LostinBlanch wrote:

This is where Parity of Esteem becomes ridiculous. Ulster Scots isn't a language, it is at most a dialect, the grammatical structure is practically identical to English.

Of course the fact that the Taigs have a strong culture which historically goes back at least 5,000 years (Newgrange has been dated to 3,000 BC approx), and a vibrant language (in the North anyway) means that they have won the cultural war.

In a feeble attempt to make it seem like Unionists actually have a culture worth the name*, there have been attempts to create one. This has ranged from extreme revisionism of myth and history [Cuchullain as Loyalist hero :eek: ] to "creating" their own language. Both governments passed a blind eye to this as part of the parity of esteem element of the GFA. They couldn't be seen to give all the grant money to the Nationalists so any half "decent" scheme on the Unionist side would qualify for grant money. Easy money too by the sounds of it.

*Of course Ulster Protestants have some culture but very little of what is known as "high culture" i.e. Literature, Music, Dance etc when compared to us down here.

hmm sounds like a blatant disregard for parity of esteem to me and just a whiff of supremacy. Ulster-Scots is a dialect of Scots not English. Scots has several regional dialects. It is a full fledged language with its own grammar and a huge vocuabulary far in excess of a "dialect". I suggest you read some Robert Burns as it is one and the same as Ulster-Scots. Thats literature. How about Field Marshall Montgomery Pipe Band from Lisburn? Ulster champs,, All-Ireland champs, Scottish Champs, British Champs, European champs and World Champs. That would be music. Dance well we can do Irish dancing and Scottish dancing as well as anyone else.

Highland dancers "fling" over to Edinburgh Tattoo

The Co Tyrone based group "Bready Sollus Highland Dancers" is celebrating the success of two of its young stars selected to perform next month at the Edinburgh Tattoo.

Shelley Anne Campbell (17), and Georgina Kee, (15), have only three years dancing experience but have come along 'leaps and bounds' to beat off competition from 90 other Scottish dancers and secure a place in the elite troop who will perform at this world renowned music and dance exhibition showcase event.
Shelley Anne said: "To qualify we had to do two dances - "Flora McDonalds Fancy" and "Barracks Jonnie" - in front of Bill Forsythe, chairman of the Scottishofficial board of highland dancing."
Co Tyrone's Bready Sollus Dancers, Shelley Anne Campbell (17), left, and Georgina Kee (15).

The Tattoo, which has been running since 1950, is always a sell-out event attracting huge audiences from across the world. More than 30 different countries have participated to date developing a cosmopolitan feel to the event.

A coach load of family and friends will travel to Scotland in support of the girls.

James Kee, founding member of the dance school and proud father of Georgina, said: "It's unbelievable. In our home it's almost with religious fervour that we watch the Edinburgh Tattoo on television and to think there will be two from our group actually performing this year is tremendous."

The girls are also in demand for their musical talents. Both are members of Bready Pipe Band and will perform in the World Championships in Glasgow Green later this year.

The girls' busy schedule shows no signs of slowing down as they have now been invited to participate in another tattoo event in Holland this September.

"I'm equally passionate about the dancing and music as I feel that they both compliment each other," said Georgina. "I'm hoping to continue the family tradition and teach highland dancing in the future."

I suggest you start here for Scots language resources:-

http://www.scots-online.org

Beasties

Clock-leddy, clock-leddy
flee awa hame,
Your lum's in a lowe,
Your bairns in a flame;
Reid-spottit jaiket,
An polisht black ee,
laund on ma luif an bring
Siller tae me!

Ettercap, ettercap,
Spinnin your threid,
Midges for denner, an
Flees for your breid;
Sic a mishanter
Befell a bluebottle,
Silk roond his feet-
Your haund at his throttle!

Mowdiewarp, mowdiewarp,
Howkin an scartin,
Tweed winna please ye,
Nor yit the braw tartan,
Silk winna suit ye,
Naither will cotton,
Naething, ma laird, but the
velvet ye'v gotten.

Kilsally

smashey wrote:

I had a er debate with kilsally about this last week. The thread has since been 'tidied up and locked'. Basically I told them that a lot of people along the border here in Donegal would use some ulster scot phrases in normal conversation. However these people are for the most part nationalist minded and how did they factor that into the equation as the ulster scots society is predominantly unionist. He told me to form our own society and avail of any grants etc. that were available. This I informed him is what I believe they have done and told him if they were forever going on about being the queen's subjects then surely they should speak the queen's english. Well he then quoted european parliament recognition for ulster scots, and tied it all up to the united irishmen movement and a corrupt church of england biased government in dublin in the 1700s and everything else he could think of. I can see were the culture stealing idea comes from.

Houl yer whisht mon!

right, so who were the leaders of the United Irishmen? Erm the Presbyterians Scots planters. Who were they fighting against? The British / English / Irish ruling classes right? Where were they ruled from? not London but the Dublin parliament which was exclusively Anglican (Church of Ireland / England)...the act of Union did not occur until the early 1800`s. The United Irishmens rebellion occurred in 1798.

quote
. Shortly after the United Irishmen rebellion in 1798 the act of Union between Great Britian and Ireland occured.

Samuel Neilson, a Scots-Irish contemporary of Thompson and a founding father of the United Irishmen, remarked just prior to the Act of Union, "I see a union is determined on between Great Britain and Ireland. I am glad of it." Neilson accepted the Act of Union without shedding his sense of Irishness. He, like many other members of the Society of United Irishmen, became Irish Unionists because they saw in the union an end to the corrupt Ascendancy-based Dublin Government. Indeed this was the position of Sir Edward Carson, who was at heart an Irish Unionist. It is significant that at that time the Orange Order (which I think only accepted Anglican at that time) and the Anglo-Irish Protestant Ascendancy were bitterly anti-unionist.

Samuel Thompson, the Bard of Carngranny, expressed the position of eighteenth century Irish Presbyterians in the following verse: - "I love my native land, no doubt, Attach'd to her thro' thick and thin Yet tho' I'm Irish all without I'm every item Scotch within.".

Kilsally

These might interest you also:-

Back To The Battle Of Saintfield
http://www.newsletter.co.uk/story/22143

By David Young

Saturday 20th August 2005
MORE than two centuries after the United Irishmen's rebellion swept through Co Down, pikes and muskets will again be employed in battle in Saintfield today. On June 9, 1798, three weeks into the ill-fated rising, the rebel soldiers won a rare victory over the Crown forces on the fields around the town and now the opposing sides are set to clash once more.

That battle is being recreated for a new dramatised documentary about the fascinating period in Irish history when Protestant and Catholic alike rose against the ruling establishment. The film concentrates in particular on the life of the Rev Thomas Birch, the Presbyterian minister who formed the first society of the United Irishmen in Co Down and then led the insurgents into battle against the York Fencibles at Saintfield. Like so many Protestant families in those tumultuous days, the Birchs were wrought by division, and while Thomas led the rebels, his brother George, a staunch loyalist, commanded the Newtownards Yeomanry. With a cast of over 50 actors and battle re-enactors, the documentary, which is being made by Lynx Productions, will be shot over the next 10 days and will take in a range of locations such as Down County Gaol, Armagh and Mount Stewart.

"It really focuses on this divided family," said director and script writer Vivienne Hewitt. "Thomas was almost hung for his part in the rebellion and he was saved by his brother George who was JP in Down and a member of the Newtownards Yeomanry. "And George's young sons had actually joined the rebel side and fought with their uncle; and tragically one of them, John, was killed. "There was also a 16-year-old boy called Ensign Sparks who died fighting with the Fencibles and the film touches on the lives of these two young lads who both died in the battle. "The First Saintfield Presbyterian Church and the Price-Griffith family have both been kind enough to let us film on their land so it's going to be an exciting day." The film also focuses on the genesis of Orangeism, which was to emerge during those times, and indeed many of the first Orange lodges were formed by regiments of the Crown.

"So you had strange scenario of Yorkshire Orangemen getting attacked by Ulster Presbyterians," said Vivienne. "It was one of those strange paradoxical event that many have forgotten about our history."

Playing one such Crown soldier who had links with the Orange is Ulster Unionist peer and Ulster Scots enthusiast Lord Laird, who will don full military regalia of the era for his role. "I'm very pleased to be part of something that celebrates and expresses the Ulster Scots culture in a positive way," said Lord Laird. "It's a bit part really, but I have a few lines. Though I don't think it will get me on to Coronation Street." Filming at today's re-enactment is open to the public and gets under way outside the First Presbyterian Church at 7.15pm.

d.young@newsletter.co.uk

Kilsally

Battle of Saintfield re-enactment and film

http://www.ulsterscotsagency.com/ulsterscotOct05no3a.asp

The dramatic story of conflicting loyalties which characterised East Ulster during the 1798 Rising will now unfold in a dramatised documentary written and directed by Vivien Hewitt and filmed by Lynx Productions.

The film, which is Lottery-funded through the Northern Ireland Film and Television Commission, has been shot on location at Saintfield during the re-enactment, at Mount Stewart, Hillsborough Court House, Comber Parish Church and Dan Winter's ancestral home at The Diamond, Loughgall.

It follows the story of the Rev Thomas Ledlie Birch as he founds the Society of United Irishmen in Co Down and radicalises his flock from the pulpit.

Meanwhile, men like his brother George affirm their loyalty to the King by riding with Lord Londonderry's yeomanry or like Colonel Granville Chetwynd-Stapylton by founding an Orange lodge among his Yorkshire soldiers.

George Birch, pillar of the establishment, will see his teenage son die leading the rebels and his brother tried for treason.

On August 20, both Government and rebels mustered their forces in the field at York Island, Saintfield site in Co Down, the only rebel victory of the '98 Rebellion in Ulster.

It was a battle fought between Presbyterian United Irishmen, inspired by the republican principles of their Ulster-Scots cousins in America, and Government troops from the York Fencible Regiment which had founded LOL No 145 in 1796 on a warrant issued by the son of George III. The Yorkshire men were backed up by the local Newtown and Comber Cavalry, raised by Lord Londonderry.

In an extraordinary recruiting drive, York Island Arts and Heritage Association brought together a great diversity of forces including members of today's York, Cross of St. Patrick and Hearts of Down Orange lodges, cross-community living history groups, The Minstrel Boys and North Irish Dragoon Society, enthusiastic Saintfield volunteers and a strong team of Ulster actors drawn from throughout the Province.

An "Awards for All" grant allowed York Island to put its best foot forward with the high profile human resources, complemented by authentic period costumes and props. The well-staged battle and moving commemoration ceremony were followed by BBC Radio Ulster as well as an enthusiastic public.

The film was edited last month and will be ready for presentation in the late autumn.

A Dub in Glasgo

Kilsally wrote:

hmm sounds like a blatant disregard for parity of esteem to me and just a whiff of supremacy. Ulster-Scots is a dialect of Scots not English. Scots has several regional dialects.

Scots is a dialect of English and Ulster-Scots is a regional dialect of Scots therefore Ulster-Scots = a regional dialect of English

Snickers Man

It's not, or it shouldn't be, a startling revelation that cultural allegiances change down through the centuries. Yes, the 1798 rebellion in Northern Ireland, was largely Prespbyterian led and Presbyterians were strong supporters of the United Irishmen.

To vote or sit in parliament at the time, one had to take the Oath of Supremacy, which basically said that the ruling monarch was head of the Church in Britain. Roman Catholics could not take this oath, because it undermined the authority of the pope. Presbyterians wouldn't take this oath because they didn't believe there should be any such hierarchical church in the first place.

So the great great grandfathers of Paisley, McCrae etc etc etc were the political forefathers of the Provos. A great historical irony? Well maybe, but there have been many others. The British fought with their traditional enemy France against their German cousins in Two World Wars.

The West got into a permanent standoff with their most important ally, and the country that did most to defeat Hitler, namely the Soviet Union, after WWII ended.

If you look at the map of the spread of 'Ulster Scots' on the agency's website you will see that a large area where it is spoken is on the Derry Donegal Border. Sure, there are a lot of presbyterians around there but that area is heavily Catholic ie nationalist now. It may not be a language but as a dialect, and that is all it is at best, it transcends cultural allegiances. In some parts anyway.

And most Gaelic speakers in Scotland are presbyterian Rangers fans.

Kilsally

A Dub in Glasgo wrote:

Scots is a dialect of English and Ulster-Scots is a regional dialect of Scots therefore Ulster-Scots = a regional dialect of English

No a Scot speaking English with a Scots accents is a dialect of English. Scots is a West Germanic derived language. English and Scots can be traced back to West Germanic. Full blown Scots has a different grammatical structure to English and a vocabularly all of its own.

There are at least five Scots dialects:

* Northern Scots, spoken north of Dundee, often split into North Northern, Mid Northern—also known as North East Scots and affectionately referred to as "the Doric"—and South Northern.
* Central Scots, spoken from Fife and Perthshire to the Lothians and Wigtownshire, often split into North East and South East Central, West Central and South West Central Scots.
* South Scots, spoken in the border areas.
* Insular Scots, spoken in the Orkney Islands and Shetland Islands
* Ulster Scots, spoken by the descendants of Scottish settlers as well as those of Irish descent in Northern Ireland and County Donegal in the Irish Republic, and sometimes described by the neologism "Ullans", a conflation of Ulster and Lallans. However, in a recent article, Caroline Macafee, editor of The Concise Ulster Dictionary, stated that Ulster Scots was "clearly a dialect of Central Scots".

As well as the main dialects, Edinburgh, Dundee and Glasgow (see Glasgow patter) have local variations on an anglicised form of Central Scots. In Aberdeen, Mid Northern Scots is spoken.

Kilsally

[QUOTE=Snickers Man

If you look at the map of the spread of 'Ulster Scots' on the agency's website you will see that a large area where it is spoken is on the Derry Donegal Border. Sure, there are a lot of presbyterians around there but that area is heavily Catholic ie nationalist now. It may not be a language but as a dialect, and that is all it is at best, it transcends cultural allegiances. In some parts anyway.
.[/QUOTE]

No, what you hear nowadays is simply Ulster English dialect sprikled with Scots words. That is not "braid Scots", that is the remnants of it. There are very, very few areas that actually speak and use the "braid toungue". Not even Ballymena can be classed as such but some of the out lying villaged around there can be. As you say the language has influence the whole area regardless of politics or religion. However the Ulster-Scots Agency is also a cultural agency and the Scots cultural aspects were and still are largely found amongst the Presbyterians as opposed to the usually English Anglican and Irish Catholics although of course there are always people who change religion or marry into other denominations etc.

Kilsally

Not only is ulster-Scots / Scots legally recognised as a language now, it was also the official language of the Scottish courts and monarchy centuries ago.

Ulster Scots is defined in legislation (The North/South Co-operation (Implementation Bodies) Northern Ireland Order 1999) as: the variety of the Scots language which has traditionally been used in parts of Northern Ireland and in Donegal in Ireland [1].

The declaration made by the United Kingdom Government regarding the European Charter for Regional or Minority Languages reads as follows: The United Kingdom declares, in accordance with Article 2, paragraph 1 of the Charter that it recognises that Scots and Ulster Scots meet the Charter's definition of a regional or minority language for the purposes of Part II of the Charter [2].

DCAL [4] describes Ulster Scots as a Germanic language and the local variety of the Scots language.

The Good Friday Agreement (which does not refer to Ulster Scots as a "language") also recognises Ulster Scots as "part of the cultural wealth of the island of Ireland", and the Implementation Agreement established the cross-border Ulster-Scots Agency (Tha Boord o Ulstèr-Scotch), whose mission statement is to promote the study, conservation, development and use of Ulster Scots as a living language; to encourage and develop the full range of its attendant culture; and to promote an understanding of the history of the Ulster-Scots people. It will be noted that this is slightly different from the organisation's legal remit to promote Ulster Scots as a "variety of the Scots language".

Flex

Kilsally wrote:

No a Scot speaking English with a Scots accents is a dialect of English. Scots is a West Germanic derived language. English and Scots can be traced back to West Germanic. Full blown Scots has a different grammatical structure to English and a vocabularly all of its own.

What is the Scots on wikipedia? I wouldve presumed that would be actual 'Scots' (like on thast link to the Scottish parliament). As I posted already, I read through some articles writtin in Scots on wikipedia and I can usually understand the whole thing, its the exact same as English being spoken by a guy with a really strong Scottish accent and being spelt phoenetically (with the exception of the odd word here and there)

Flex

Kilsally wrote:

right, so who were the leaders of the United Irishmen? Erm the Presbyterians Scots planters. Who were they fighting against? The British / English / Irish ruling classes right? Where were they ruled from? not London but the Dublin parliament which was exclusively Anglican (Church of Ireland / England)...the act of Union did not occur until the early 1800`s. The United Irishmens rebellion occurred in 1798.

quote
. Shortly after the United Irishmen rebellion in 1798 the act of Union between Great Britian and Ireland occured.

Samuel Neilson, a Scots-Irish contemporary of Thompson and a founding father of the United Irishmen, remarked just prior to the Act of Union, "I see a union is determined on between Great Britain and Ireland. I am glad of it." Neilson accepted the Act of Union without shedding his sense of Irishness. He, like many other members of the Society of United Irishmen, became Irish Unionists because they saw in the union an end to the corrupt Ascendancy-based Dublin Government. Indeed this was the position of Sir Edward Carson, who was at heart an Irish Unionist. It is significant that at that time the Orange Order (which I think only accepted Anglican at that time) and the Anglo-Irish Protestant Ascendancy were bitterly anti-unionist.

Samuel Thompson, the Bard of Carngranny, expressed the position of eighteenth century Irish Presbyterians in the following verse: - "I love my native land, no doubt, Attach'd to her thro' thick and thin Yet tho' I'm Irish all without I'm every item Scotch within.".

What do you mean by that?

Snickers Man

Kilsally wrote:

No, what you hear nowadays is simply Ulster English dialect sprikled with Scots words. That is not "braid Scots", that is the remnants of it. There are very, very few areas that actually speak and use the "braid toungue".

Hey I'm no expert. I'm just going by the map available on the Ulster Scots Agency's own website.

And I am familiar with many of the words on the 'Test your knowledge' section on the same site as I grew up in that area myself.

I'm all for parity of esteem and rejoicing in the richness of local vernaculars. Where would the world of comedy be without Billy Connolly's word play on the Glasgow vernacular? But then, would Minder have been as funny if it didn't play so much on London Rhyming slang? And have you ever heard Gift Grub's hilarious sketch of Roy Keane on a phone in show translating the comments of a Cork caller into language that the rest of us could understand?

'Jaysus he was rank, boy'
(It was a below par performance)
'Manky out'
(very poor)
your stupid gimp starin' at me out of every window in Panna'
(My book is selling particularly well in Cork's main thoroughfare, Patrick St.)


But having 'taken the test' I can't believe that it's a separate language with its own grammar. Indeed, any grammatical peculiarities in the Ulster dialect, or indeed any Irish dialect, owe more to Gaelic than anything else.

eg 'Don't be doing that' --Na bi ag...etc etc
'I'm after doing ......' Ta me tar eis...etc etc

Flex

LostinBlanch wrote:

I know we've gone off thread slightly but what's next? A Dortspeak* agency? Well if Ulster Scots can get one then so should Glenageary roysh. Hands off guys the idea is mine, unless you know about raising grant money .

After much historical research it has come to light that Dortspeakers comprise a different cultural grouping which has been entirely ignored in favour of Tallaghtfornians, Ballybrackers and Northsiders (except Howth and Clontorf) and all boggers. Urgent action is being taken to redress this shameful state of affairs and we have been assured that the european parliament will take note of the existence of Dortspeak and include it in it's list of recognised languages. . . . .


*We can include Dublin 4 and 6 as far as Ranelagh in this even though they don't have the dort but they do have the Luas. And who's constituency is this? That's roysh Michael McDowell, Lord Lairds favourite TD. Funny how we got back to him isn't it?

Good idea!

Kilsally

Flex wrote:

What is the Scots on wikipedia? I wouldve presumed that would be actual 'Scots' (like on thast link to the Scottish parliament). As I posted already, I read through some articles writtin in Scots on wikipedia and I can usually understand the whole thing, its the exact same as English being spoken by a guy with a really strong Scottish accent and being spelt phoenetically (with the exception of the odd word here and there)

Some of it can be but that is not really braid Scots but modern renditions.

Scots words beginning with C

Ca' n a call
Cabbrach adj rapacious, lean.
Caber n a large pole / tree trunk.
Cack n excrement.
Ca'd v called.
Caddie n an errand-boy, a golfer's attendant.
Cadge v to shake or to carry.
Caip n the highest part.
Calker n a country blacksmith.
Calsay n sick, in bad health.
Calsay-paiker n a street-walker.
Candlemas n a Scottish holiday (Feb 2).
Cangle v to quarrel.
Canker v to sour, to put into a bad temper.
Cankersome adj bad tempered.
Cann n knowledge, ability.
Canna neg cannot.
Cannae neg cannot.
Cannily adv craftily.
Canny adj crafty, artful, clever.
Cantily adv cheerfully.
Canty adj lively, cheerful.
Cape n the highest part.
Cap out v (in drinking) to down it in one.
Capper n a spider.
Cappit adj ill tempered.
Carnaptious adj irritable.
Cast-by n a reject.
Catchie adj merry, likeable.
Catcht v caught.
Cat-wa' n a wall between two rooms.
Caul n a cold.
Chaft n the jaw.
Chalmer n a room.
Champ v to mash. n mashed potatoes.
Champers n mashed potatoes.
Changy adj fickle.
Channer n gravel.
Chap v to hit, to knock.
Chappie n a poltergeist, a 'loud' ghost.
Cheer n a chair.
Chice n choice.
Chizzel v to cheat.
Clabber n mud.
Clabby adj sticky, muddy.
Clachan n a village.
Clacker v to progress slowly, to creep.
Clacking n talking, gossiping.
Claes n clothes.
Clair adj clear.
Claiver n idle talk.
Clammer v to clamber, to climb.
Clarried adj covered in mud.
Clarty adj dirty.
Clash-ma-clavers n idle talk.
Clatter n loud talk, chatter.
Clatterbags n a gossip.
Claucht v to clutch.
Clay-cauld adj lifeless.
Cled adj clad.
Cleg n a gadfly that bites.
Cleugh n a narrow glen.
Clipe v to tell tales. n a tell-tale.
Clipwit n a sharp-tongued person.
Clish-ma-claver n idle talk.
Clomb v climbed.
Clothes-press n a clothes wardrobe.
Cluther v to conceal, to cover up.
Coal-heugh n a coal pit.
Cockle v to totter.
Cockle up v to improve in health.
Clammer v to clamber, to climb.
Cod v to tease, to sham. n a joker.
Codger n an old person, a 'character'.
Codgie adj comfortable, cosy.

LostinBlanch

Kilsally wrote:

hmm sounds like a blatant disregard for parity of esteem to me and just a whiff of supremacy.

None intended, but if you want to take offence I can't stop you.

Ulster-Scots is a dialect

That's exactly what most of the people on this thread have being saying, it is a dialect and not a language. Though it looks like you don't accept the word of Tha Boord o Ulster Scotch

http://www.ulsterscotsagency.com/language.asp. Hmmm, who to believe?

I suggest you read some Robert Burns

I wasn't aware that he was from the North :rolleyes: I always thought he was from Scotland. Any other world reknown "Ulster Scots" poets or writers then?

How about Field Marshall Montgomery Pipe Band from Lisburn? Ulster champs,, All-Ireland champs, Scottish Champs, British Champs, European champs and World Champs. That would be music.

Good for them, I think I saw a programme about them on UTV, the best Scottish Pipe Band in the world.

Dance well we can do Irish dancing and Scottish dancing as well as anyone else.
Shelley Anne Campbell (17), and Georgina Kee, (15), have only three years dancing experience but have come along 'leaps and bounds' to beat off competition from 90 other Scottish dancers and secure a place in the elite troop who will perform at this world renowned music and dance exhibition showcase event.

Again good for them but it is Scottish Highland dancing.

What I am talking about is that there seems to be a lack of indigenous "Ulster Scots" cultural achievements, and that any that I have seen or that you have mentioned here are Scottish rather than Ulster Scottish. There seems to be little strength in depth if you will.

As Smashey said

Basically I told them that a lot of people along the border here in Donegal would use some ulster scot phrases in normal conversation. However these people are for the most part nationalist minded and how did they factor that into the equation as the ulster scots society is predominantly unionist. He told me to form our own society and avail of any grants etc. that were available.

This is what I believe is a major factor behind "Ulster Scots", getting an equal share of any grant money going. I don't have any problem with that more with the presentation than anything else. Suddenly there is this instant language (just add water and grants) as an acceptable face for Unionist culture other than Lambeg drums, F**k The Pope fife and drum bands and marching "traditional" routes on the Queens highway. Can you imagine the uproar if these kind of bands got government grants?

Flex

LostinBlanch wrote:

I wasn't aware that he was from the North. Any other world reknown "Ulster Scots" poets or writers then?

He was from Scotland

What does it take to be an Ulster-Scot; whats the criteria or requirement? ie. I see alot of US Presidents and so on are claimed as ulster-scots simply because they were protestants from the north of Ireland. Is that it; Protestant from north of Ireland?

LostinBlanch

Flex wrote:

He was from Scotland

What does it take to be an Ulster-Scot; whats the criteria or requirement? ie. I see alot of US Presidents and so on are claimed as ulster-scots simply because they were protestants from the north of Ireland. Is that it; Protestant from north of Ireland?

I know he was from Scotland, maybe I'll go back and edit it to show that I was trying to be ironic.

Flex

LostinBlanch wrote:

I know he was from Scotland, maybe I'll go back and edit it to show that I was trying to be ironic.

I didnt put the ' ' smiley in there about your comment, it was about the whole Ulster scot connection thing with him when he wasnt an ulster scot

LostinBlanch

Fair enough then. I know he's Scottish but maybe that's good enough for Kilsally, then again maybe not. We'll see what he says.

smashey

LostinBlanch wrote:

Suddenly there is this instant language (just add water and grants)

Nice one

Kilsally

LostinBlanch wrote:

None intended, but if you want to take offence I can't stop you. That's exactly what most of the people on this thread have being saying, it is a dialect and not a language. Though it looks like you don't accept the word of Tha Boord o Ulster Scotch

http://www.ulsterscotsagency.com/language.asp. Hmmm, who to believe?

I wasn't aware that he was from the North :rolleyes: I always thought he was from Scotland. Any other world reknown "Ulster Scots" poets or writers then?

---

aye a dialect of Scots. Scots being the the exact same language used by Burns. Sure there are loads of "Ulster-Scots" poets. Never heard of the Rhyming Weavers or the likes of Samuel Thompson the bard of Carngranny?

Kilsally

LostinBlanch wrote:

None intended, but if you want to take offence I can't stop you.


What I am talking about is that there seems to be a lack of indigenous "Ulster Scots" cultural achievements, and that any that I have seen or that you have mentioned here are Scottish rather than Ulster Scottish. There seems to be little strength in depth if you will.

hmm could that be because they all came from Scotland 400 years ago! Nah. That wouldnt be why its called Ulster-Scots culture instead of just Ulster culture would it? Nah.

Kilsally

Flex wrote:

He was from Scotland

What does it take to be an Ulster-Scot; whats the criteria or requirement? ie. I see alot of US Presidents and so on are claimed as ulster-scots simply because they were protestants from the north of Ireland. Is that it; Protestant from north of Ireland?

erm no. religion doesnt come into it but in the vast majority of cases it involves Presbyterianism as Scotland had been converted to Presbyterians / Calvinism by John Knox. Ulster-Scots is simply someone whose ancestors moved from Scotland to Ireland (generally Ulster) usually during the plantations and in the case of the "Scots-Irish" in America these same folks also then moved to the States mostly due to the Test Acts which discriminated against Presbyterians and non-conformists. As stated earlier the language actually affected the whole area regardless of origins and religion.

Kilsally

Flex wrote:

I didnt put the ' ' smiley in there about your comment, it was about the whole Ulster scot connection thing with him when he wasnt an ulster scot

i did not say he was an ulster-scot i said he spoke scots or which ulster-scots is a dialect.

Kilsally

"Suddenly there is this instant language (just add water and grants)"

Your just showing ignorance here. There have been published Ulster-Scots works for centuries. The Rhyming Weavers

Rhyming Weavers: And Other Country Poets of Antrim and Down
http://www.blackstaffpress.com/catalogue/more.asp?book=176
http://www.amazon.co.uk/exec/obidos/ASIN/0856407577/202-9156547-8970269

The Scot in America and the Ulster Scot.
http://www.booksulster.com/bookstore.cgi?cart_id=4673274.2451&pid=26745&count=1
First published in 1911 and Belfast in 1912

Sons of the Sod: A Tale of County Down
http://www.booksulster.com/bookstore.cgi?cart_id=4673274.2451&pid=26555&count=1
reprint of 1890s original