What Would You Do In This Case?

PADDYPOKER

I got caught speeding outside the Red Cow a while ago and received the letter from the cops "PAY 80 Euro and 2 points on the licence or go to court where you may get a higehr fine and/or higehr points".
That's fair enough it was a fair "cop" (even though they were in an unmarked car with the hairdryer out the window) but on the form they have sent out, my first name is spelt wrong and part of the address is also spelt wrong.
Should I go to court and get a solicitor to fight it on the above grounds?
i.e. wrong details on the form or just forget about it and pay my penalty?
Coming off the M50 doing 89 in a 50 zone before anybody asks.

Also how long do the points last on the licence?

connundrum

Points stay on your licence for 2 years last time I checked. I would pay it and be done with it, but I have heard of cases being thrown out on technicalities such as spelling mistakes etc.. so it might be worth paying a visit to the solicitor

ST*

ahh pay the fine ya winger
:v: theres no loop-holes with the cops.

xzanti

Personally Id just pay it.. If you go to court they judge can decide to give you a higher penalty for wasting court time... I wouldnt risk it tbh

whiskeyman

You might be able to get off this.... can you're morality cope with it though?
Perhaps put some money in the poor box.

Actually, just checked.
A mispelt name or address would be seen as a "non-fatal" error, and would usually be corrected by the court.
A fatal error, like missing name or missing date of offence, could result in the case being thrown out.

BoozyBabe

Pay it.
89 in a 50 ffs

(Though, in general I think there are a lot of uncall speed limits in this country, but by receiving the 2 points might make you think more when you go to break the speed limit by SO much in future)

xzanti

I got 2 penalty points a couple of months back and I paid the fine and I got another letter in my door yesterday from the Government to say that I had been given two penalty points accompanied with the standard "If you were not driving the car at that time send no money" etc..

So Im confused... Was this just a receipt and notification that the points were now officially on my license or have I been caught speeding again???

The first letter was from the Gardai but this was from the government...

If it didnt come with directions on how to pay a fine Id assume it was just a receipt.. :rolleyes:

Fast_Mover

fight it...!! seriously!

bro was caught doing 45 in a 40mph zone..but when they sent out his fine thing in the post the reg of the car was wrong by one digit somewhere..went to court and he got off..

Mr Magnolia

PADDYPOKER wrote:

Should I go to court and get a solicitor to fight it on the above grounds?
Coming off the M50 doing 89 in a 50 zone before anybody asks.

I agree with boozybabe
If I was you I'd pay it, the judge could hammer you for doing 89 in a 50!!!

Edit: you might get better advice in the motoring forum, maybe you should re-post there or ask for a move.

whiskeyman

Fast_Mover wrote:

but when they sent out his fine thing in the post the reg of the car was wrong by one digit somewhere..went to court and he got off..

That would be a fatal error as I pointed out above, and rightly so..... name and address won't count afaik.

Fast_Mover

suppose he could always ring up a solisitor and find out where he stands..?

Vorsprung

PADDYPOKER wrote:

Coming off the M50 doing 89 in a 50 zone before anybody asks.

Jesus you'd be ****ed if any other country. You know you're guilty, pay the fine and be the bigger man. Sometimes I get the feeling that people hire a solicitor and fight it just to get one over on the guards, and end up paying more than the fine.

flanzer

Shock_treatment wrote:

:v: theres no loop-holes with the cops.

That's the problem with this country there TOO many loopholes in the justice system !!
I'd be 100% confident you'll get away with this, if it went to court. They obviously don't teach them how to spell in Templemore anymore

connundrum

xzanti wrote:

I got 2 penalty points a couple of months back and I paid the fine and I got another letter in my door yesterday from the Government to say that I had been given two penalty points accompanied with the standard "If you were not driving the car at that time send no money" etc..

So Im confused... Was this just a receipt and notification that the points were now officially on my license or have I been caught speeding again???

The first letter was from the Gardai but this was from the government...

If it didnt come with directions on how to pay a fine Id assume it was just a receipt.. :rolleyes:

Yeah, it took about 2 months after I was fined before I received a letter from the Dept of Transport saying that I had 2 points on me licence.. two separate bodies. AND one thing that pissed me off was that my points only came into effect from the date I received that poxy letter, not from the date I committed the crime.. poxbags

But, if there is a mistake with the registration ie. one digit wrong - then you've more chance of getting off with it, but a mistake with name or address is a bit more dodgy.. still, see a solicitor - 1st visit is free!

xzanti

connundrum wrote:

Yeah, it took about 2 months after I was fined before I received a letter from the Dept of Transport saying that I had 2 points on me licence.. two separate bodies. AND one thing that pissed me off was that my points only came into effect from the date I received that poxy letter, not from the date I committed the crime.. poxbags

Aaaah I see... That must be it so.. Still dont get why they send directions on paying a fine.. Bit confusing :rolleyes:

grumpytrousers

If you decide to turn up to fight it, you've effectively shot yourself in the foot; you've demonstrated that the summons/whatever had the wrong name/address, but it still reached you. In other words, you've effecively corrected the defect yourself.

connundrum

xzanti wrote:

Aaaah I see... That must be it so.. Still dont get why they send directions on paying a fine.. Bit confusing :rolleyes:

I'd still ring the number on the letter to make sure that you weren't caught again, to be sure to be sure. But from what I can remember, there were details on 'how to pay your fine' with the letter I received.. thing was the letter arrived 20 something days after the fine was due to be paid.. tis all fooked up ya see!

Lux23

Pay it and drive more responsibly next time.

Fast_Mover

grumpytrousers wrote:

If you decide to turn up to fight it, you've effectively shot yourself in the foot; you've demonstrated that the summons/whatever had the wrong name/address, but it still reached you. In other words, you've effecively corrected the defect yourself.

i see what your saying..in that case should he not do anything and then they bring him to court, deny that he got it as that not his right name/address...errr on second thoughts that commiting perjury tho:) (right word?)..though in order to bring him to court they have to sent out another letter (with same spelling mistakes on envelope) informing him that they taking him to court..yada yada..this getting complicated..we all get the idea..
..my brother didnt deny that he wasnt driving the car(photo)/went over the speed limit..it was just a technical error on their part and due to the many loopholes that exist he got off..

Kojak

If I was you I would fight it.

I have heard of cases that haven fallen through because of minor 'technicalities' i.e. the guard not wearing his/her hat.

Talk to a solicitor. At the very least they will be able to tell you what are your best options.

Fast_Mover

Kojak wrote:

'technicalities'

thats the word i was looking for..OP:Fight it and let us know how you got on!

jimmycrackcorm

connundrum wrote:

AND one thing that pissed me off was that my points only came into effect from the date I received that poxy letter, not from the date I committed the crime.. poxbags

Yes and people who commit jailable crimes should actually go to jail the day they commit the crime instead of waiting for a pesky court case. poxbags indeed! :rolleyes:

okidoki987

If you lose and end up in jail. we'll all come and visit you

Defcon 5

Maybe fight if it was a case that you were just over the speed limit i'd say fight it till the end but on the otherhand you could face the scenario of an old bitter judge who thinks all young people speed with the intent to kill with a blatant disregard for the law.
You could find yourself looking down the barrel of extra points and an increased fine.
The fine isnt that bad and two penalty points is managable just imagine if you had killed someone!!!! :eek:

grumpytrousers

Kojak wrote:

If I was you I would fight it.

I have heard of cases that haven fallen through because of minor 'technicalities' i.e. the guard not wearing his/her hat.

Talk to a solicitor. At the very least they will be able to tell you what are your best options.

I'd be wary of fighting it based on somebody on the internet having heard of cases fall through because of minor technicalities. Not thru any 'disrespect' for what Kojak says - he's undoubedly right - but the simple fact of risk v punishment etc

if you take this on the chin, stump up the €80, the case goes away. You don't have to declare it on your insurance and hopefully you learn a lesson

if you elect to fight it, by which i mean turn up in court to fight it, you've already (as i've stated) fixed the defect on the summons. There'll be a cop or two in the court to say that car reg xyz 123 was doing 89 in a 50 zone, you've probably got no real defence for it, and BANG, convicted. 4 points, and a fine....and your insurance company WILL get to know...

talk to a solicitor, i'm just another asshole on the internet, but y'know...is it worth it

i71jskz5xu42pb

Fast_Mover wrote:

suppose he could always ring up a solisitor and find out where he stands..?

Ring a solicitor and get a quick professional (and probably free) assessment of whether he should pursue this? When he can get the combined legal experience of m'learned boards.ie members? That's a crazy idea ... crazy enough it just might work.

copacetic

well if you get called to court they will have to send you a sumons and if your name is spelt wrong on that too then the summons will be invalid?
a guy i know in work got off becuse they just posted his summons in the door, when he got to court the guard said go home that wasn't served properly..

copacetic

oh and has anyone else heard of the guy who is appealing the 2 extra points he got in court, his case is that he wasn't speeding and has a right to challenge it. it's unconstitutional to penallise extra points because he wanted to defend himself in court which is his right..

makes sense to me, kinda.

i71jskz5xu42pb

daveym wrote:

it's unconstitutional to penallise extra points because he wanted to defend himself in court which is his right.

The idea that the courts would impose a lighter sentence on people who do not contest a prosecution (i.e. plead guilty) was around for a long time before penalty points. And there was usually a lot more than points at stake i.e. years in jail. As such I'm sure it's been well tested.

MorningStar

You can fight it and will probably win. THe best thing to do is just ignore it. You can claim you didn't think it was for you. Although if thoses details are on the ownship slip you signed you may get 4 points.

I have an unusal surname and first name and I don't have to spell them when asked. If the cop gets it wrong and send me anything with the wrong details I bin it.

On the other hand you did the crime pay the fine and stop moaning and trying to weasel out of something you did. Take responsibility for your actions of all the problems in this country that is what our biggest problem is. It was fine to be trying to sc*w a system belong to an occuping force but now it is our system and if you can't even do the right thing why should you expect anybody else to. Morals are not for the other guy. 89 in a 50 zone is both irresponsible and dangerous do you want more people doing that or less?

copacetic

PaschalNee wrote:

The idea that the courts would impose a lighter sentence on people who do not contest a prosecution (i.e. plead guilty) was around for a long time before penalty points. And there was usually a lot more than points at stake i.e. years in jail. As such I'm sure it's been well tested.

but surely that is at a judge's discretion it's not in any legislation, so it's a bit different, it's hardly going to be tested by someone who agrees a deal for a lighter sentence by pleading guilty. Besides I'd guess most people plead guilty because they are..

PADDYPOKER

I hold my hands up to doing 89 in a 50 area.
However it was the other side of the road to the Red Cow with big concrete barriers and railings on the other side so no danger to the public (not that's that an excuse).
I have no problem paying the fine and getting the 2 points but if I
can get off it for a mistake by the guards (name or address wrongly spelt), why shouldn't I.
After all, others do it and for a lot worse cases.

MorningStar

PADDYPOKER wrote:

After all, others do it and for a lot worse cases.

Other people rape and kill people so why don't you. It is only a rat race if you grow a tail and sttart running.

Take responsibility for your own actions.

BoozyBabe

PADDYPOKER wrote:

if I can get off it why shouldn't I.
After all, others do it and for a lot worse cases.

Because it's wrong, & you did wrong! Simple as.

If it'd been a 60 in a 50, then I might be more in favour of saying yea give it a go for the sake of 2 penalty points on your license, but 89 is waaay to far over the limit for you not to get punished for it.

If everyone drove like this & could get off with it every time we'd have pedestrians being mowed out of it by idiots in cars left, right & center (not implying your an idiot)

Just put it down to lesson learned & don't do it again

grumpytrousers

daveym wrote:

well if you get called to court they will have to send you a sumons and if your name is spelt wrong on that too then the summons will be invalid?
a guy i know in work got off becuse they just posted his summons in the door, when he got to court the guard said go home that wasn't served properly..

oh and has anyone else heard of the guy who is appealing the 2 extra points he got in court, his case is that he wasn't speeding and has a right to challenge it. it's unconstitutional to penallise extra points because he wanted to defend himself in court which is his right..

The delivery of the summons is important alright...a guard is meant to turn up and show you the original and then give you a copy...or something like that. As stated before, name spelt wrong might not be enough to make it invalid.

For instance, if the summons is addressed to Brian Jones, but your birth cert says 'Bryan Jones' then you might not be able to rely on the 'But it's not my name, mate, defence'

If your name, however, was spelt as Tom, then you've a fighting chance

as regards the 'constitutionality' of the extra points, etc, the line is that the penalty for speeding is actually 4 points, on conviction, but if you effectively 'plead guilty', and don't have it go to court, thereby saving the state time, money etc, you are 'rewarded' by only having 2 points put on...in other words, if you challenge the accusation and you're not believed, then the normal penalty - four points - applies. There's no extra as such.

I'd pay this one, if I were the OP. The initial fine notice found its way to him, there's no reason to suppose that the summons wouldn't as well. If its sent by registered post, as some of them are, then there's no comeback to the 'it wasn't really me' line; the issuing authority will have proof that the summons didn't come back unopened...

Cake Fiend

Man up and pay your dues. Hopefully you'll have a bit more sense next time you feel like racing around the place.

stovelid

Are you taking the piss, 89 in a 50..pay the fine. You'll get (rightly) slaughtered in court

Lump

Just pay the fine. If you do fight it, I personally hope you're arrested.

John

pred racer

Sico wrote:

Man up and pay your dues. Hopefully you'll have a bit more sense next time you feel like racing around the place.

jeez get off yer high horse, are you telling me you have never broken the speed limit???

back on topic, a cousin of mine got caught while overtaking (this also debunks the oft aired opinion that its ok to go over the speed limit while overtaking) so he was doing 70 in a 60 zone (mph) but on the ticket he recieved it said he was doing 60 in a 70 (an important mistake I would have thought) and his name was spelt wrong, he rang his solicitor, who told him to pay the fine and take the points. He said that the judges are not taking any excuses on these cases, and they were not being thrown out except for gross mistakes.

Lump

I'm sure people have broken the speed limit, but lots of people aren't caught doing 89 in a 50 zone.

John

daiixi

PADDYPOKER wrote:

I hold my hands up to doing 89 in a 50 area.
However it was the other side of the road to the Red Cow with big concrete barriers and railings on the other side so no danger to the public (not that's that an excuse).
I have no problem paying the fine and getting the 2 points but if I
can get off it for a mistake by the guards (name or address wrongly spelt), why shouldn't I.
After all, others do it and for a lot worse cases.

I don't know the road in question but I'm presuming that there could have *possibly* have been other motorists on the road which you could have involved in an accident and could have hurt or killed? You could have crashed your car yourself and caused delays for other motorists AND wasted precious tax payers money on emergency vehicles and hospital fees etc.

What you did was wrong. Take the slap on the wrist, grow up and learn to obey the road rules.

How would you feel if someone had died in an accident you had caused?

Font22

why fight it when its clear you were in the wrong?
thats one major failing in Irish society as far as i'm concerned. no one has respect for rules put in place to benefit/protect everyone. theres a reason the speed limit is 50 and not 89. just pay it and think before you put your foot down next time

Lump

I was watching a programme last night and some some going 50 Mph in a 30 was given a fine of £250 Sterling and 3 points. They should make the fines massive.

John

okidoki987

What's the point, they don't collect half of the fines anyway :eek:

Boggle

You'd be an idiot not to do your best to get out of it... Anyone who says they wouldn't at least explore their options is lazy, stupid or lying.

Anyone who contradicts me better be able to claim that they never broke a speed limit, and if they did, they turned themselves in over it... otherwise leave your horse at the door and stop talking sh*t!!

Besides - the legislation is morally wrong so I'd fight it on principle - regardless of the situation.

grumpytrousers

Boggle wrote:

Besides - the legislation is morally wrong so I'd fight it on principle - regardless of the situation.

I'm curious. How?

Boggle

I'm curious. How?

I've posted on this before and basically any legislation that is designed to discourage defending yourself in court is wrong. <Speaking sloooowwwwlllllyyyyyyy> You should have nothing extra to fear in going to court - and the fact that people often get lighter sentences for showing remorse (and pleading guilty) cuts no sway here as in those cases it is not written in stone what will happen.

Think about it for a while... Can't believe any mildly educated person could be so short sighted not to see the flaws inherent in such legislation!! Maybe if you were wrongfully accused of speeding and had to make the decision of whether you can afford to fight a case that will always be difficult to win then you might finally understand.

Doctor Fell

I had a very unpleasent experience with the Garda last year, and needed legal advice. The Free Legal Aid Centre will give you good advice for free. Basically it's solicitors who work for free giving advice on any legal topic.

http://www.flac.ie/

They can tell u whether there is any point in engaging professional help (can be quite expensive obviously!!).

In my own case a bogger Garda stopped me as I was walking down the street and accused me of doing something I clearly didn't do. I couldn't believe this and thought he was joking, but no! So he arrested me and made up charges that I was drunk and disorderly (I wasn't) and that I didn't give my name and address ( I did). These are criminal charges so I had to get legal rep. It turned out though that on the arresting charge sheet (or whatever it's called) he filled in the wrong time (aswell as false evidence). My solicitor thought this would be enough to get all charges dropped, but I said I wanted to contest the charges because I was actually innocent. Sure enough the judge threw out the case and said she didn't believe the Garda's statement/evidence. What an a88hole cop, but anyways!!
The point is though that I'm fairly sure wrong name and address is grounds to challenge the charge.

grumpytrousers

Boggle wrote:

I've posted on this before and basically any legislation that is designed to discourage defending yourself in court is wrong. <Speaking sloooowwwwlllllyyyyyyy> You should have nothing extra to fear in going to court - and the fact that people often get lighter sentences for showing remorse (and pleading guilty) cuts no sway here as in those cases it is not written in stone what will happen.

Think about it for a while... Can't believe any mildly educated person could be so short sighted not to see the flaws inherent in such legislation!! Maybe if you were wrongfully accused of speeding and had to make the decision of whether you can afford to fight a case that will always be difficult to win then you might finally understand.

Indeed. My telepathy-scope is giving me gip, thus I wasn't able to interpret your broad assertion that "the legislation is morally wrong" as being an indictment of the nature of 'pay the fine now - get half the penalty later' part of Road Traffic Legislation, as opposed to the Legislation as a whole...

Anyhoo...in most cases, I take your point about not liking legislation that discourages one defending oneself - but only up to a point. I mean - when it comes to a 'crime', obviously you should be able to. The fact of the matter is that RTA offences are pretty much black and white matters. It's just a matter of 'ingredients' which need to be present to bring about a conviction...in other words, you can't - in a lot of these cases - defend the indefensible; it's the reason that people only get off on (what most people term) technicalities.
And that's the reason that they have the two points/four points system. The penalty notice sent out is effectively telling you that "on behalf of the minister for blah blah blah we have you bang to rights on this 'cos it's car reg XYZ 123, doing 90mph on 3rd Jan 2006 at 9 in the morning...play along, take the slap on the wrist and in return for you saving us paperwork, we cut the penalty"

The RTA Act 1961 says simply "A person shall not drive a mechanically propelled vehicle at a speed exceeding a speed limit applying in relation to the vehicle". There's no "unless" in there....

Basically one should only pick fights one has a chance of winning....speeding offences ain't one of 'em...

Mossy Monk

pred racer wrote:

jeez get off yer high horse, are you telling me you have never broken the speed limit???

everyone does it so its ok?

Boggle

The fact of the matter is that RTA offences are pretty much black and white matters. It's just a matter of 'ingredients' which need to be present to bring about a conviction...in other words, you can't - in a lot of these cases - defend the indefensible; it's the reason that people only get off on (what most people term) technicalities.

Where do you draw the line? Most crimes could be considered indefensible if you were to look at it like that - the guards have decided you did it and so you are guilty as far as the state (DPP) is concerned. The idea of a courts system is that you have the right(not a priveledge) to an official and external examination of the case. What about if, such as in 1 case I know of, whereby the gardai pulled over the wrong car? What about the case, as I read about in the papers a while back, of defective measurements? As it is, if there's a faulty camera then it will continue punishing people wrongly until someone tries to defend the "UNDEFENDABLE"...

Basically no matter how small the crime you are entitled to defence - No??