I moaned about RTE DOGS and got a great reply.

swoofer

I hate DOGS or lOGOS call them what will. I used to tape the odd good programme eg film, sport, documentary etc and then fast forward through the ads but when the RTE dog came out it buggered me. For some peculiar reason I am one of a small minority who notices these DOGS during a programme!! Anyway I complained to all and sundry including the BCC. The BCC passed my letter to rte and lo and behold I got a reply. Here it is. Put mildly we are ******d.

"The Broadcasting Complaints Commission has forwarded your email to me. I understand they have explained to you that your complaint falls outside of their remit.

I regret that you hold RTÉ is such low regard. We endeavour to respond to all complaints in an appropriate manner. When RTÉ introduced the on screen logo we received quite a few complaints. We have serious consideration to those complaints. In response we had the logo re-engineered to make it more transparent and more feint and thereby reducing its visual impact. Clearly this has not been enough of a response for you. To not agree to a request from a member of the audience is not to ignore that request. Consideration was given to those who asked that the logo be dropped. However there are strong competitive reasons to include a logo. Comparisons with the UK are not relevant. In Ireland the four indigenous channels, RTÉ One, RTÉ Two, TV3 and TG4, are all in fierce competition with a whole range of UK channels who broadcast into Ireland. Many of these channels are taking significant advertising revenue out of the Irish market and are giving nothing back in return. Around 50% of all viewing of all television in the Republic is with UK channels (primarily UTV, Ch4, E4, the BBCs, the Skys, MTV.,CNN, Nickelodeon, etc.). A comparable situation does not occur in the UK.
Our commercial and marketing people tell us quite unambiguously that it is important that the viewer knows what channel he or she is watching. (In Ireland the situation can be confused as all of the Irish channels carry programming which is also available on the satellite and other UK channels). It may not be important to you as a viewer whether you are watching Coronation Street on TV3 or UTV, but it is important for advertisers. I should also say that UK broadcasting is not free of on-screen logos. All the satellite accessed channels, Sky One, Sky News, MTV, CNN, etc carry on screen logos.

So RTÉ along with the other Irish channels has decided to have its logo on screen. This decision was taken in the long term interests of viewers as a means of ensuring that sufficient audience watch Irish channels and thereby provide the resources to enable programming to be made in Ireland addressing the needs of Irish audiences. You might argue that your licence fee should allow you to be free of the on screen logo. It is a commercial reality that revenue form the licence fee provides less than half the cost of RTÉ’s operations (if you were to take RTÉ ’s contribution to TG4, to the orchestras, to RnaG and to Lyric FM out of the figures you would find that the licence fee actually only supports about a third of the output of RTÉ One and Two television and Radio 1.) So commercial revenue is essential"

To finish I asked Why did the logo disappear when the ads appear but never got a reply.

I no longer watch rte.

gb--

Round Cable

GBCULLEN wrote:

To finish I asked Why did the logo disappear when the ads appear but never got a reply.

You can share my reply;

"As the advertisements are not RTE products, the airtime
is sold to third parties and therefore it is not
appropriate to brand it with the RTE logo."

I'd say this is RTÉ's opinion: Time payed for by the Licence fee payer contains RTÉ's branding because you have no choice and being annoyed doesn't matter, however advertisers can look elsewhere, let's not annoy them.

Hagar

I'm not a lover of DOGs but I find it hard to fault the arguement put forward by the RTE spokesman.

Round Cable

Hagar wrote:

I'm not a lover of DOGs but I find it hard to fault the arguement put forward by the RTE spokesman.

"This decision was taken in the long term interests of viewers as a means of ensuring that sufficient audience watch Irish channels"

It was a courteous reply, however I don't know about others but I turnaway from RTÉ and to the British channels to escape the DOG, I really don't see what it's presence is going to do to make people watch Irish channels, am I wrong?

FREEBBC

GBCULLEN wrote:

I hate DOGS or lOGOS call them what will. I used to tape the odd good programme eg film, sport, documentary etc and then fast forward through the ads but when the RTE dod came out it buggered me. For some peculiar reason I am one a small minority who notices these DOGS during a programme!! Anyway I complained to all and sundry including the BCC. The BCC passed my letter to rte and lo and behold I got a reply. Here it is. Put mildly we are ******d.

"The Broadcasting Complaints Commission has forwarded your email to me. I understand they have explained to you that your complaint falls outside of their remit.

I regret that you hold RTÉ is such low regard. We endeavour to respond to all complaints in an appropriate manner. When RTÉ introduced the on screen logo we received quite a few complaints. We have serious consideration to those complaints. In response we had the logo re-engineered to make it more transparent and more feint and thereby reducing its visual impact. Clearly this has not been enough of a response for you. To not agree to a request from a member of the audience is not to ignore that request. Consideration was given to those who asked that the logo be dropped. However there are strong competitive reasons to include a logo. Comparisons with the UK are not relevant. In Ireland the four indigenous channels, RTÉ One, RTÉ Two, TV3 and TG4, are all in fierce competition with a whole range of UK channels who broadcast into Ireland. Many of these channels are taking significant advertising revenue out of the Irish market and are giving nothing back in return. Around 50% of all viewing of all television in the Republic is with UK channels (primarily ITV1, Ch4, E4, the BBCs, the Skys, MTV.,CNN, Nickelodeon, etc.). A comparable situation does not occur in the UK.
Our commercial and marketing people tell us quite unambiguously that it is important that the viewer knows what channel he or she is watching. (In Ireland the situation can be confused as all of the Irish channels carry programming which is also available on the satellite and other UK channels). It may not be important to you as a viewer whether you are watching Coronation Street on TV3 or UTV, but it is important for advertisers. I should also say that UK broadcasting is not free of on-screen logos. All the satellite accessed channels, Sky One, Sky News, MTV, CNN, etc carry on screen logos.

So RTÉ along with the other Irish channels has decided to have its logo on screen. This decision was taken in the long term interests of viewers as a means of ensuring that sufficient audience watch Irish channels and thereby provide the resources to enable programming to be made in Ireland addressing the needs of Irish audiences. You might argue that your licence fee should allow you to be free of the on screen logo. It is a commercial reality that revenue form the licence fee provides less than half the cost of RTÉ’s operations (if you were to take RTÉ ’s contribution to TG4, to the orchestras, to RnaG and to Lyric FM out of the figures you would find that the licence fee actually only supports about a third of the output of RTÉ One and Two television and Radio 1.) So commercial revenue is essential"

To finish I asked Why did the logo disappear when the ads appear but never got a reply.

I no longer watch rte.

gb--

What a rude RTÉ:mad:

Telefís

No I think it was courteous enough actually, especially as I get the impression that the original correspondence to them was less that 'muted'....

Personally the DOG's rarely bug me, but I can see how they can drive certain people insane. Overall though, this would be a tiny tiny fraction, I daresay not even 1% of the overall licence-paying public who care about this. Whilst this is not necessarily reason enough to advocate their retention, I think combined with the broader implications for advertisers and station identity in the wider broadcasting landscape, I think it is.

Saying that, I don't take RTÉ's view about many UK stations' 'do actually' have DOGs - it's trashy satelllite channels that have them, not the decent terrestrials!!!
And the removal of DOGs for advertising is incredibly hypocritical. No wonder you got no response.

Telefís

Indeed if anything, putting up a DOG during ad breaks is when they're at their most helpful - indicating straight away what channel you are on, confirming you've pressed the right button etc - as opposed to being pasted over programming where inevitably the content speaks for itself as to what channel you are on.

Mossy Monk

more transparent my arse

RTÉ should be ashamed. i have read that letter twice and i still dont see why they need to put them there. do they think that if people have the choice they will watch a programme, say Eastenders on an Irish channel over a British channel. that is rubbish. why else would they need to light up the corner of the screen. if they want to do this then at least do as TG4 did. theirs is the best i have seen from any channel that wishes to include this crap

D-Generate

I just don't get the need for one on Digital. The EPG tells you exactly what channel you are on!

mickd

Just when you thought it couldn't get any worse. Has anybody seen the Blizzard of Odd when clips of RTE One programms are shown the DOG is still left on the screen and the RTE Two DOG appears just above it. Very sloppy production/editing you think they would remove it for this purpose.

SRB

Our commercial and marketing people tell us quite unambiguously that it is important that the viewer knows what channel he or she is watching.


Perhaps if the "commercial and marketing people" were to actually watch RTE via a Sky Digibox they'd know it's impossible not to know what your watching. Obviously they don't, otherwise they would have noticed the squashed logo on 4:3 programmes and it's daft position on screen, something which one would assume would be a big "no no" to anyone in a commercial and marketing department.....

Rick_

mickd wrote:

Just when you thought it couldn't get any worse. Has anybody seen the Blizzard of Odd when clips of RTE One programms are shown the DOG is still left on the screen and the RTE Two DOG appears just above it. Very sloppy production/editing you think they would remove it for this purpose.

I'll second that, watching it now and it's unbelievable how RTÉ don't even notice themselves when making / broadcasting the show that something is wrong when DOG's are in the wrong positions, and watching footage from the previous week on RTÉ has 2 different sized and positioned DOGs on screen at the same time. They havn't even noticed how different, smaller and better other stations DOGs look when shown on screen at the same time as the RTÉ ones.

I wonder why they decided to make the DOG paler, yet not smaller or in the correct place...

Paddy

projectmayhem

GBCULLEN wrote:

I no longer watch rte.

gb--

there's nothing to watch on it anyway

DublinWriter

RTE are a sick joke and I think the time has come to form a lobbying group to seek the abolition of the TV Licence Fee.

The pros for your average chicken-and-chips gobbling Irish politician and member of the parish-pump comm-it-eay are obvious - an immediate saving of some €147 Euro per household per annum.

The cons are obvious. Scrap Saturday and Bull Island weren't pulled at the height for their popularity for no reason - management at RTE were looking for a hike in the licence fee at the time and probably didn't want to upset their political paymasters.

You may scoff at the US model of broadcasting, but the PBS continues to produce some of most compelling television in the world and rivals the BBC in the quality of their documentary output.

The essential difference is, you can optionally pay to see quality programming, or you can opt out and watch the network mind-candy for free.

Here, we’re legally obliged to pay to watch the mind-candy with some token serious programming thrown in to take the curse off…and it’s not particularly good mind-candy either, there’s only so many ways Pat Kenny can give away a Renault on a Saturday night.

Scrap the licence fee and watch RTE shed much of it’s middle-management fat like a chop cooked in a George Forman grill.

But don’t expect it to happen anytime soon.

swoofer

for telefis

This is what I sent to the BCC.

Hi

I dislike a lot about rte and it is usually around the fact they don't give 2 hoots about what may be perceived as minority held gripes but they are gripes nonetheless. I have long held the view that the use of LOGOS or DOGS onscreen is a dumbing down of broadcasting but RTE persist except when showing adverts. The BCC apparently can do nothing, which is not unusual for Ireland, but when RTE provide a link on their website to the BCC that does not work well maybe the BCC might like to be aware of that fact.

It appears to me that RTE have their own agenda and no one else has a say. I would not mind this approach if I did not have to pay a licence fee but I do and therefore I think RTE should get a life and listen to a minority held view and then do something about it.

The BBC, ITV1, CH4. C5, all receivable here in Ireland do not have onscreen logos but our supposedly national broadcaster does. I find this a travesty. I only watch films, news and the odd documentary, or I should say used to, as I can't now watch because of the onscreen graffiti. Imagine watching the GODFATHER with a big blob of RTE1 in the top left hand corner.

It's just not fair.

Kind regards

(a disgusted licence payer)"

My reply to the first letter was very forthright and was reagrded as robust. this is the bit that blew me away

""So RTÉ along with the other Irish channels has decided to have its logo on screen. This decision was taken in the long term interests of viewers as a means of ensuring that sufficient audience watch Irish channels and thereby provide the resources to enable programming to be made in Ireland addressing the needs of Irish audiences."

and my reply

Eh!! Come again!! I have just complained that I no longer watch RTE because of the logo and you are now telling ME that the logo was introduced to ensure I watch RTE!!!

gb--

Telefís

I'd broadly support your position GBCULLEN - I too dislike DOGs, simply as tacky tasteless features on any broadcaster, rather than them necessarily being annoying. I strongly suggest in all seriousness that you contact Liveline over this. You’d be surprised how over in Radio they like to rebel against the Television Division now and again. If you drum up a convincing enough argument with a bit of backing from here and elsewhere, you may be surprised at how serious they will consider it.


DublinWriter, I get just as irritated over aspects of RTÉ as you do. I hold a love-hate relationship with the broadcaster, but in no way would I advocate a dispensing of the licence fee. You seem to have absolutely no sense of financial reality when it comes to how broadcasting is funded or could be funded in Ireland. It is simply not possible for any sort of sustained half decent production to be made in Ireland on the base of commercial revenues alone – we are simply too small. And even if we weren’t, the exposure to commercial pressures would still bite into quality.

A simple fact for example is that drama, of any kind, would be wiped out in Ireland without a licence fee. Drama runs at a whopping loss to RTÉ, regardless of what it is, how long it is, or how often it runs - wiped out.
Investigative journalism of any kind – wiped out.
International correspondents – wiped out.
Arts programming, of even the populist variety – wiped out.
Special interest programmes of almost all kinds – wiped out.
Coverage of Oireachtas proceedings – wiped out.
Coverage of State events – wiped out.
Special events – wiped out.
Special news coverage – wiped out.
Most outside broadcasts – wiped out.
Much of RTÉ Radio 1 – wiped out.
Lyric FM – wiped out.
Orchestras and choirs – wiped out.

Of course there are areas ripe for huge improvement, of course there are, but isn’t this the case with any single broadcaster anywhere in the world? I say single broadcaster as this is what we are dealing with here, not the combined might of the British television industry which Irish people seem to think is imbued in every single station over there, but a single broadcaster, just as one may assess just the BBC or just ITV. And even then it is unfair to compare RTÉ to them with their resources.

Of course there are improvements to be made – scrap Fair City as victim Number 1.
Make a greater investment in developing young talent, actors, presenters, directors and producers.
Less of a focus on stuffy formats and stuffy people.
Increased volume and increased variety with young people’s programming.
More adventurous discussion formats that seem to be the preserve only of radio rather than television.
More niche sports coverage, more commitment to sport in general
And a personal gripe – improved production values across the board.


But RTÉ is all we have, and is the best we will ever have. Even if you retain a licence fee and allow all broadcasters to dip into it, you just end up disintegrating all of the expertise, talent and creative ability that has built up in RTÉ as a public broadcaster over 45 years. You end up with a dilution of content, and over-focus on certain genres as all broadcasters strive to make cheap profitable documentaries or chatshows. More imported content creeps in. The focus on quality with home-production diminishes. A sense of collective national identity is lost. An inability to respond to extraordinary events or coverage of State proceedings occurs. And above all, an absence of deep-rooted public connection with their national television services takes place.

This must never be allowed to happen.

As much as RTÉ p*sses me off to the extent that it does (and believe me it really does at times), I would still fight to the end to preserve what we have, and protect our national broadcasting institution, in what is a marketplace simply saturated with foreign media with an increasing globalised programming base.

swoofer

I'm beginning to think my minority view may not be so monor after all. Thanks for all the support. I must admit I lost my rag with the reply and I was going to walk away but I had one last stab at it by disssecting the letter.

This is the first bit that, erm, upset me.

"Our commercial and marketing people tell us quite unambiguously that it is important that the viewer knows what channel he or she is watching. (In Ireland the situation can be confused as all of the Irish channels carry programming which is also available on the satellite and other UK channels). It may not be important to you as a viewer whether you are watching Coronation Street on TV3 or UTV, but it is important for advertisers"

my reply

This statement, and you can take it from me, is total and utter b****t. Of course it will be put forward by commercial and marketing people, they need something to do. An ad is an ad is an ad. Why is it that the logo is dropped when the ads are on?? I can tell you it is because the ad people want NOTHING to distract the viewer. Its ok to have no logo when an ad is on but not when a programme is on. That is so nonsensical it defies logic. The logo is there because some smart a**e thought it would be a " hip " thing to do.

I fail to see why it is important for advertisers to know what channel people are watching!!!! An advertising person will chase good rates and then base its success on the number of hits recorded. I don't watch ads but from what I do catch they are mostly the same. I can get any itv region I like and I can assure you I don't choose one because of the ads."

How do I get to LIVELINE, can I email.

In all honesty I think RTE should retain a bit of quality. If the logo was dropped for the programmes that I like eg films, documentaties, discussions, q&a etc then I could watch again. I think RTE are on a loser and would not like that to happen. I watch BBC no adbreaks, no logos, I tape ITV, C4, ads but I wind them on. I will watch the premiership on RTE, tg no logo.

There is a campaign in the UK for logofree tv but I think it has folded.

I should add I got a look at disney tv recently and the onscreen logo was unbelievable!!!

http://logofreetv.org/

gb--

Zhane

I myself have emailed RTE about these, will let you know the reply.

C_Breeze

pardon my ignorance but whats a DOG - what is evryone here talkin bout?
what dont yous like? - im lost

Hagar

Digital on-screen graphic. RTE in the corner of the picture for instance.

watty

Or Digitally Originated Graphic

Hagar

What he said. ^^

Zhane

Can i just ask how many people have complained about these? Surely if they get so many complaints, something has to be done about them?

Round Cable

I've complained and received the traditional 'without DOG's RTÉ would cease broadcasting, they're just that important'* and my comments would be passed on to another 'relevent department'. I wonder would people's complaints to RTÉ matter, them seem to do whatever they want anyway.

* A slight exageration, very slight mind you.

They also said in one email, that RTÉ haden't received complaints about them in months. Considering how bad they are, I was surprised.

swoofer

this is in his reply "" When RTÉ introduced the on screen logo we received quite a few complaints. We gave serious consideration to those complaints. In response we had the logo re-engineered to make it more transparent and more feint and thereby reducing its visual impact. Clearly this has not been enough of a response for you. To not agree to a request from a member of the audience is not to ignore that request. Consideration was given to those who asked that the logo be dropped. However there are strong competitive reasons to include a logo."

They wont say how many. However, I was flicking today and caught the news on RTE 2 and that had 2 logos!! rte two and on the other side THE DEN. I mean you would think for the news they would give a bit of gravitas to the content. I can see it now, a person giving an interview and weeping and that great big THE DEN logo obliterating their right eye! I despair. It is like a satellite mickey mouse channel but it is atually the national broadcaster.
He has not answered, why the logo goes when the ads appear. I consider that as I pay a licence fee that's my airtime and if the logo is on during a programme I insist it stays on.

gb--

monksavage

What a bunch a ****in losers!

Mossy Monk

who are the losers?

SPDUB

The problem with DOGS was illustrated during the showing of Star Trek "Nemesis" on Monday night when during one sequence the DOG was over Captain Picards face when he was the main focus of the scene so you naturally looked at him as he was speaking

Incidently they can't see to make their mind up with "Home and Away" as whether it should have the "TTV" DOG on it as well as RTE TWO as twice last week they transmitted it without the "TTV" DOG but it then re-appeared and it disappeared one day this week as well

Goodshape

Licence fee souldn't be aboloshed, they should just be forced to use it correctly.

By all accounts RTÉ is a joke of a corporation.

marclt

Goodshape wrote:

Licence fee souldn't be aboloshed, they should just be forced to use it correctly.

I'm not a great fan of the dog.. at least if they used a logo that would help, but everytime the BBC change their font/logo/design - RTE are sure to follow. It used to be BBC 1 / RTE 1 then it changed to 1, then it changed to BBC One, RTE ONE... etc etc.

I know the EPG is on Sky, fair enough - the viewer should be able to work out what channel they're on.. but I think there is less need for the DOG to be on terrestrial analogue broadcasts... you press 1, 2, 3, or 4 in the majority of households and you get RTE1, 2, TV3, TG4 (except parts of the east and north)

S4C have an on-screen DOG for satellite and DTT (as if the language doesn't give it away!) but not on analogue. BBC2W use a DOG when it broadcasts during the evenings but BBC Two Wales doesn't on analogue. Why can't RTE do the same?

Ulsterman 1690

Telefis some of your points are valid but.........

Telef&#237 wrote: »

Investigative journalism of any kind – wiped out.

As it is they do very little

Telef&#237 wrote: »

Lyric FM – wiped out.

Umm theres no reason why the BCI couldnt licence a specialist classical music station. It could be just as succesful as Classic FM (UK) or Class FM (pre-1988 Dublin pirate)

DOGS (provided theyre unobtrusive like say on TG4) make a certain amount of sense on analouge channels but are completly pointless on digital channels. It wouldnt be that difficult for RTE to have the DOG on the analouge feed and to tone it down. Taking away the DOG during adbreaks makes no sense it all though.

IIRC the first channel to use DOGS (although it was probably an "A"OG) was the Italian state broadcaster RAI after the loss of their monopoly in the 1970's