What happens cable when DTT comes in?

Telefís

...well if DTT comes in

It's highly likely most of the British will get on board an Irish DTT system when launched, maybe next year at the earliest, not least as most are now FTA at this stage. Arguably it's only a matter of time before Ch4 and Five also hop on board - they've nothing to lose.
Similarly RTÉ and the Irish Government will be strongly supportive of the British coming on board; as things stand the only reason we haven't heard anything from the UK is because they're waiting for the DTT project to be outlined before committing to anything.

So what future does this hold for cable in Ireland? With all the 'basics' hopefully being provided on DTT, who's going to pay any company for cable services, especially if they're only providing these 'basics' as most people will want?

Is Dublin about to turn into a sea of aerials once again?

Skyuser

Im sorry highly likely for UK channels?? Say who?
There will be no UK channels on Irish dtt

watty

There is No DTT viable without them. The plan always was to have a mux of UK channels. The argument was how much or free.

That is one reason why "Deflectors" have to close when DTT starts.


Since the original DTT plans, S4C~Digidol, all BBC and 5 ITV channels have gone FTA (clear / free) on Satellite. A once off payment of 300 Euro gets them. Without Sky. Or free install from Sky and cancel after one year as you own the Sky gear from day it installed.

Analog MMDS, analog Cable and Deflectors are already fairly doomed even it DTT never arrives.

The future for Cable is combined offering. Phone with NO line rental to eircom, good BB internet and 100+ channel Digital TV supporting Widescreen (Analog MMDS and cable don't).

So at this stage it is not what "damage" DTT might do to Cable/MMDS but how to get DTT launched with over 400,000 Satellite viewers.

DTT will likely have C4 and Five. These are on Satellite, but only to Irish viewers of Sky Digibox with a UK address to order the £21 Stg once off FTV card from Sky.

Comreg and previously OTDR has been pushing to close analog cable and MMDS for years. Chorus/NTL are a way behind on Digital Cable roll out. Many Chorus cable areas are so bad that they have got permission to turn off cable and replace with Digital MMDS. Though I think the new owner of Chorus /NTL has to upgrade cable in those areas.

Cable is here to stay, but it is not competitive for a basic analog service since last Nov 2005.

It still hard to see how DTT is going to get setup unless Gov changes mind and finances it. The aerials are UHF only. Three Rock serves a large part of Dublin even with a small aerial or in some cases a UHF Set-top (smaller than the traditional Rabbits Ears). There will be no VHF DTT.

bk

There is absolutely no guarantee that we will have the UK channels on Irish DTT.

Remember that ComReg are partly in charge of this, going by their performance in the telco and BB markets, they are sure to screw up DTT also. Also LGI (Chorus + NTL owners) would likely fight any introduction of free uk channels on DTT.

There are three possiblites:

1) Only all Irish channels: RTE1, RTE2, TV3, TG4, Channel 6, Setanta and probably something like: RTE+, The Den, TV3+ and if we are lucky maybe even UTV and a RTE News channel (with probably lots of Euronews).

2) The above Irish channels for free plus a pay-tv lineup of the UK channels.

3) Irish + UK tv free.

The first two options are likely, the third option is unfortunately very unlikely.

It is interesting to note that LGI (through Chorus) has alreay won part of the DTT contract for network services for DTT, while they are on the short list for the yet to be decided part of the contract to actually run the transmission network. So the cable companies are already positioning themselves to "own" the DTT network. So it is likely to be option 2, with LGI using DTT to replace their MMDS service which they are soon going to lose the licence for.

This is unfortunate as in the UK, DTT has become a major competitior to cable, it has far surpassed cable for numbers of digital customers and will soon surpass sky and FTA satellite. This has forced NTL:UK to be very competitive, offering high value triple play services of 100+ channel TV, no line rental phone and BB, along with extra value services such as Video On Demand and a cool new PVR soon. Soon they are even going to become a quad play operator by buying virgin mobile and offering mobile phone services also.

We may lose out again here in Ireland :mad:

watty

If option 1 or 2 (2 was the original option) then DTT is dead before it starts. Definately dead if Option 1.

To be honest DTT is not the big thing it was once thought to be. If new apartment blocks had to have CHOICE of cable or communial Satellite*, then it is irrelevant.

DTT in UK can probabily never provide even close to the poor terrestrial coverage of Five. Satellite (an expensive large dish few channels option when DTT was designed) gives virtually 100% coverage and is cheaper than running a a half dozen main transmitter sites now.

Cable will have to offer the same as UK here as aDSL grows, Wireless services such as Digiweb metro grow and public becomes more aware of Satellite FTA choice. Sky at this stage is not just competing with Cable but also FTA satellite!

I suspect DTT as dvb-h pay TV on phone handsets will arrive before DTT as dvb-t to home.

DTT in UK only started to have impact when relaunced by BBC as "Freeview". As a pay platform it can neither offer choice of channels of Cable or Sky, nor quantity of decent free channels of Satellite, nor the extra services of Cable or Mobile Phones with DVB-h (Expect DVB-h on GSM/GPRS phones as well as on 3G, it's actually completely separate from phone network standard and frequencies).

(*both plus sturctured cabling to a provider cabinet should be a legal requirement of any new planning permission.)

bungeecork

Do any of you think that the Internet will become the main source of TV distribution in the coming years?

I think these are the monochrome & valve days of the Internet, it's already begun to take over from traditional phone systems and (for me at least) has also begun to replace traditional TV systems. wwitv.com already lists hundreds of TV stations available online and as time goes on this can only get better. Microsoft Media Center/re is a begining of something else again and is pc based.

DTT might have been something to get excited about in the 90's, but today...?

paulm17781

bungeecork wrote:

Do any of you think that the Internet will become the main source of TV distribution in the coming years?

Not certain if it will in it's current form. I think IP will become the main distribution mode, which could change alot about TV. I think it will be more convergeance than TV over web.

BrianD

CATV will always have its especially if it offers 'triple play'. In urban areas many viewers may not have access to the roof for an aerial (I understand an outdoor one is required for DTT). DTT will obviously do away with the deflectors and MMDS.

The big question is what will be available. It would be wrong to assume that because its on CATV or MMDS it will automatically be on DTT. I suspect that rights holders will have ringfenced this platform like they did with DSAT and none of the legacy stuff that CATV has benefited from will apply. So it would not surprise me if BBC or, say, UTV would not be available. I don't think it will fare well if they weren't. Having said that analogue will go and RTE, as far as I know, still have an obligation to provide their programming on a publicly available platform such as DTT.

Interesting about video over IP. The last Broacasting Act states that 'Internet broadcasts' are not covered under the act. Does this mean that this whole area is now unregulated?

bk

All interesting questions.

BrianD wrote:

CATV will always have its especially if it offers 'triple play'. In urban areas many viewers may not have access to the roof for an aerial (I understand an outdoor one is required for DTT). DTT will obviously do away with the deflectors and MMDS.

DTT in Ireland probably won't need an aerial roof, certainly not in the Dublin City area. You only need it in the UK because of the way they have set up the network to cram as many channels into the frequency as possible.

BrianD wrote:

The big question is what will be available. It would be wrong to assume that because its on CATV or MMDS it will automatically be on DTT. I suspect that rights holders will have ringfenced this platform like they did with DSAT and none of the legacy stuff that CATV has benefited from will apply. So it would not surprise me if BBC or, say, UTV would not be available. I don't think it will fare well if they weren't. Having said that analogue will go and RTE, as far as I know, still have an obligation to provide their programming on a publicly available platform such as DTT.

Well the last Broadcasting act specifically included the provision that the Minister for Communications could actually give a mux to both BBC and UTV, so that they could deliver multiple channels, so it is possible.

I believe DTT is also classed similar to cable and MMDS, so the DTT operator could deliver the UK channels if they wanted to, there is no ring fencing of DTT and C4, ITV and C5 would certainly be in farvour of being broadcast in Ireland as it would mean more advertising money for them. However it is more likely that the UK channels will be delivered as a pay-tv setup in Ireland, otherwise LGI and Sky would scream bloody murder.

BrianD wrote:

Interesting about video over IP. The last Broacasting Act states that 'Internet broadcasts' are not covered under the act. Does this mean that this whole area is now unregulated?

Strictly speaking I believe so, however more then likely decent Video OverIP will be carried by the cableco's, telco's and wireco's and they are all regulated under various other acts.

bk

bungeecork wrote:

Do any of you think that the Internet will become the main source of TV distribution in the coming years?

Well itunes and Google are already doing this and MS with their Xbox 360 and Sony with their PS3 are likely to try this in the future.

However it is more likely the the cableco's, telco's and wireco's will end up distributing TV along with voice and BB over their respective networks using IP (iinternet protocol). To the end user it won't seem any different to using their existing digital box with remote attached to a TV, however the underlying infrastructure will be IP based.

Of course as well as delivering just standard channels over IP, they will also have video on demand services.

I most say, having watched 3 episodes of Rome in a row using VoD on Comcast cable in Boston last year, that VoD is simply amazing and it will have a big impact when it is finally launched here in Ireland.

watty

Technically all DVB is a form of IP video.

Telefís

bk wrote:

LGI (through Chorus) has alreay won part of the DTT contract for network services for DTT, while they are on the short list for the yet to be decided part of the contract to actually run the transmission network. So the cable companies are already positioning themselves to "own" the DTT network.

Are the 'network services' the multiplex operations and EPG etc? Or is the EPG still a seperate contract? When did this happen do you know?
And do RTÉ still have a 33% share in the transmission network bk?

Interesting stuff about cable. So does all of this upgrading mean that every single cable running into every house from the road, or draped from house to house is being/will have to be replaced with digital cable?

And is it the case if you're an eldery person in a cabled area or someone who just has no interest in the internet, that DTT will become the only FTA route for you for Irish and UK channels (assuming the UK will come on board)?
It really is only Sky/Ntl/Chorus that are the blockages in the system when it comes to FTA UK channels on DTT - all of the UK stations really have nothing but gain to be derived from being available in Ireland.

On what grounds would the digital providers have a case, no doubt for Europe, were all the British to go on DTT? Ir's hardly anti-competitive is it?

paulm17781

Telef&#237 wrote: »

Interesting stuff about cable. So does all of this upgrading mean that every single cable running into every house from the road, or draped from house to house is being/will have to be replaced with digital cable?

I don't know if there are any plans to do this but it would be great if UPC would upgrade all the cables to a full fibre/coax network with 850Mhz coax. It would probably be years before this happens but I would imagine doing this will be necessary as FTTH begins to emerge. My understanding is that the cable networks in Ireland are awful.

Telefís

Indeed - supposed to be pretty woeful.
Is the existing co-ax network capable of carrying any telephony services?

paulm17781

Telef&#237 wrote: »

Indeed - supposed to be pretty woeful.
Is the existing co-ax network capable of carrying any telephony services?

Some of it can definitely carry VOIP. I use NTL and Blueface. I don't know if it can do POTS.

bungeecork

Telef&#237 wrote: »

...all of the UK stations really have nothing but gain to be derived from being available in Ireland...

Wouldn't the BBC demand money from someone for using their signals on any fta system here? If I was a UK license payer I'd be fuming if ROI people saw for free what my license fee paid for. So I think that unless someone pays them, the only BBC channels that could be made available here on a FTA digital platform are the already free commercial ones (BBC World, BBC Prime etc.) No?

BrianD

bk wrote:

I believe DTT is also classed similar to cable and MMDS, so the DTT operator could deliver the UK channels if they wanted to, there is no ring fencing of DTT and C4, ITV and C5 would certainly be in farvour of being broadcast in Ireland as it would mean more advertising money for them. However it is more likely that the UK channels will be delivered as a pay-tv setup in Ireland, otherwise LGI and Sky would scream bloody murder.

Is this something that the content providers i.e. rights holders set down rather than what is laid down in law. I suspect that DTT will not be treated as a 'relay' service that CATV evolved from. All these rights holders like to geographical control each platform so they can milk each territory. I do know that RTE is a must carry on new platforms.

I don't believe that the Minister has the power to sign over a multiplex for the UK channels. These channels must negotiate with the Multiplex operator to secure a slot. This will create an interesting scenario. TV3, Setanta, Ch6 and probably other Irish based channels will want to be on the mux. So how much space will this leave for the UK channels? Almost damned if you and damned if you don't.

It really is only Sky/Ntl/Chorus that are the blockages in the system when it comes to FTA UK channels on DTT - all of the UK stations really have nothing but gain to be derived from being available in Ireland.

It's not the platforms that are stopping the FTA UK channels getting widespread coverage, it is individual channels who have the Irish rights for certain programmes.

I'd imagine the BBC could charge an Irish platform be in cable or DTT for their content but their position is weakened by being FTA on satellite.

watty

Telef&#237 wrote: »

Indeed - supposed to be pretty woeful.
Is the existing co-ax network capable of carrying any telephony services?

The DOCSIS digital cable system has a box for POTS (Plain old Analog system ) phones and/or Broadband in addition to any Digital TV on a Digital TV box.

Mosty cable into a house does not need replaced.
Some distribution cables and a lot of the bits that feed a street have to be replaced.

In many cases the physical coax going part the houses is OK.

There isn't realy digital or analog "cable" in the physical sense, it is more to do with all the amplifiers, splitters distribution system and types of signal.

Of course some cable is physically poor and the picture is just bad on analog, that physical cable then has to be found and replaced.

For analog an entire city can be in theory feed just by amplifiers and splitters etc.

For digital each street or small area needs a cabinet of equipment connecting by some higher speed method to the control/servers/switching etc. These cabinets can be linked by fibre, high speed coax, microwave or what ever comes to hand.

This is a simplfied expllaination, but gives an idea of what an analog to digital system over coax upgrade involves.

Telefís

Righto - thanks.

In terms of the BBC licence, at this stage I would have thought that argument to be irrelevant from a purely social point of view considering the BBC is now available across Ireland FTA. Having it more freely available on a DTT platfrom is a negligable difference really. If I was a UK resident, I really couldn't care less if an extra city, i.e. Ireland, a country with a population the size of Birmigham had access to the services I was paying for.

A drop in the ocean of 59 million people.

Certainly of course, who has the power to decide the British can hop on broad the platform is another matter. In terms of space, originally anyway there would have been loads. There was to be at least four multiplexes, if not six, with RTÉ getting one to themselves, and TV3 and TG4 sharing one between them, leaving at least two, if not four extra multiplexes free, amounting from anywhere between 10-24 channel spaces.
Don't know how this has changed, if at all.

BrianD

Yes but the BBC have no obligations here and Ireland could be viewed as a 'revenue source' i.e. TV platforms paying to carry BBC TV and RAdio (the two go hand in hand). With analogue going, FTA satellite will be the real overspill. Who knows that once firmly established Freesat might need a box of some description.

I also note that the BBC video content that is being distributed on this new peer-to-peer system is only available to those with UK IP addresses. If you try to access from an international IP address you get a message saying "Sorry this content is only available to UK licence payers". The shape of things to come?

Freddie59

bungeecork wrote:

Do any of you think that the Internet will become the main source of TV distribution in the coming years?

I think these are the monochrome & valve days of the Internet, it's already begun to take over from traditional phone systems and (for me at least) has also begun to replace traditional TV systems. wwitv.com already lists hundreds of TV stations available online and as time goes on this can only get better. Microsoft Media Center/re is a begining of something else again and is pc based.

DTT might have been something to get excited about in the 90's, but today...?

It's all about convergence. Some people are over-oriented on TV. At the minute my PC is:

My Hi-Fi
A TV
A video editing suite
A PC (!)

Yes you will see IP TV, but like all new technologies (VOIP) it will take a while to get a foothold. It will be the next generation who will benefit in the next 10 - 20 years.:)

Freddie59

watty wrote:

Analog MMDS, analog Cable and Deflectors are already fairly doomed even it DTT never arrives.

It is analogue cable, combined with Digital cable and BB that separates NTL from Sky.

watty wrote:

The future for Cable is combined offering. Phone with NO line rental to eircom, good BB internet and 100+ channel Digital TV supporting Widescreen (Analog MMDS and cable don't).

Have you never watched widescreen on Analogue Channel Four? - they, IMO, carry the highest amount of widescreen programming around.

I have NTL analogue; NTL Digital; 1 Meg BB; and VOIP phone from Blueface with unlimited local and national calls. ALL of this costs me a mere €65 per month. The future's already here Watty.:)

watty wrote:

Comreg and previously OTDR has been pushing to close analog cable and MMDS for years. Chorus/NTL are a way behind on Digital Cable roll out. Cable is here to stay, but it is not competitive for a basic analog service since last Nov 2005.

No. ComReg did not. It was part of the original MMDS licence that they switch to digital by a set date. NTL operate a fully-digital MMDS network. And Digital Cable is available (AFAIK) in approximately 95% of their networks. It is the Government who will set a date for all analogue switch-offs.

NTL are also one of the foremost BB providers in Ireland. Have a look at the posts on the Broadband forum.;)

Freddie59

watty wrote:

The DOCSIS digital cable system has a box for POTS (Plain old Analog system ) phones and/or Broadband in addition to any Digital TV on a Digital TV box.

Mosty cable into a house does not need replaced.
Some distribution cables and a lot of the bits that feed a street have to be replaced.

In many cases the physical coax going part the houses is OK.

There isn't realy digital or analog "cable" in the physical sense, it is more to do with all the amplifiers, splitters distribution system and types of signal.

Of course some cable is physically poor and the picture is just bad on analog, that physical cable then has to be found and replaced.

For analog an entire city can be in theory feed just by amplifiers and splitters etc.

For digital each street or small area needs a cabinet of equipment connecting by some higher speed method to the control/servers/switching etc. These cabinets can be linked by fibre, high speed coax, microwave or what ever comes to hand.

This is a simplfied expllaination, but gives an idea of what an analog to digital system over coax upgrade involves.

Very well put. Modern Hybrid Fibre Coax (HFC) Cable systems are fed from a central location (a headend) by fibre-optic cable to a series of nodes, contained in the aforementioned cabinets (where the fibre optic light is converted back to a conventional signal). This eliminates the need for a series of amplifiers (commonly called boosters) to be placed at regular intervals, as the Fibre light can travel very long distances without the need for a repeater.

This cuts down the amount of amplifiers used which in turn cuts down on distortion on the network. More importantly it cleans the network up for Broadband return signals, while at the same time improving quality in general. All of the major cities using a cable network are, AFAIK, using this system.

Analogue and Digital does indeed refer to the type of signals deployed, but both they (and broadband) travel down the same cable. The cable is but a medium, or conduit, in which signals travel to and fro. I can't say I agree with other posters generalisation that 'all cable networks are bad'. It's like saying the entire phone system is bad or the entire electrical network is poor.:)

bungeecork

Telef&#237 wrote: »

...at this stage I would have thought that argument to be irrelevant (..) considering the BBC is now available across Ireland FTA...

Fair enough.
Do NTL Chorus etc. still pay royalties to the BBC? Would they still have to pay if the BBC was carried on an Irish-only (i.e. not spillover) FTA signal system?

Mossy Monk

yes they would have to pay. afterall NTL and Chorus would still be making money off the fact they have those channels

paulm17781

Freddie59 wrote:

I can't say I agree with other posters generalisation that 'all cable networks are bad'. It's like saying the entire phone system is bad or the entire electrical network is poor.:)

I mean compared to the rest of the developed world ours is poor.

BrianD

It's a pity - we went from one of the most cabled countries in Europe to one with a large but rapidly ageing system.

Having said that most of the network in the UK was subsidised by the Government where no assistance was given here. Why? To protect the States shareholding in the largest Irish phone company.

bk

BrianD wrote:

I don't believe that the Minister has the power to sign over a multiplex for the UK channels. These channels must negotiate with the Multiplex operator to secure a slot. This will create an interesting scenario. TV3, Setanta, Ch6 and probably other Irish based channels will want to be on the mux. So how much space will this leave for the UK channels? Almost damned if you and damned if you don't.

Yes, he does, it is part of the Broadcasting Act 2001, you can read it for yourself right here:
http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/ZZA4Y2001S9.html

Specifically:

(6) The Director shall attach a condition to the digital multiplex licence requiring the multiplex company, where the Commission, in accordance with a direction given by the Minister under subsection (7) for the time being in force, requests it to do so, to use a multiplex or part of a multiplex solely for the purposes of programme material supplied to it under and in accordance with this Act by a person who provides a broadcasting service in Northern Ireland, being a broadcasting service that is receivable throughout the whole of Northern Ireland and which is provided by terrestrial means.

Ok so at that legalese basically means that the Minister can instruct that a multiplex or part of a Multiplex can be given to any Northern Ireland broadcaster. This would definitely include BBC NI and UTV, maybe even C4 and C5.

That isn't to say that s/he will or that the BBC would even be interested in taking up the offer, but the possibilty is there. I believe this was included to help foster cross boarder cooperation.

bk

BrianD wrote:

It's a pity - we went from one of the most cabled countries in Europe to one with a large but rapidly ageing system.

Ironically that is why the netowrk is so bad. At the time Ireland had only one or two channels and people were desperate to get more channels from the UK. So the cable companies tried to roll out the network as fast and cheaply as possible.

In the UK and the rest of Europe, people could already receive all the channels they wanted by aerial, so the cable companies sold cable based on it offering much better picture and sound quality then aerial, so of course they needed to have a much better network to do that.

watty

Also the quality of Off Air many people still get is regarded as "fringe" qulaity in UK. The cable was never good but people conditioned to accept it. Of course for many UTV and BBC was worse or non-existant, so they got away with using poor feeds too.

Freddie59

watty wrote:

Also the quality of Off Air many people still get is regarded as "fringe" qulaity in UK. The cable was never good but people conditioned to accept it. Of course for many UTV and BBC was worse or non-existant, so they got away with using poor feeds too.

That might have been the case in the 70s, but are you aware that most cable companies have been using a national microwave network (similar to RTEs) to distribute the four UK channels since 1992?:)

Freddie59

BrianD wrote:

It's a pity - we went from one of the most cabled countries in Europe to one with a large but rapidly ageing system.

Having said that most of the network in the UK was subsidised by the Government where no assistance was given here. Why? To protect the States shareholding in the largest Irish phone company.

Got it in one. That was the reason Eircom bought their share in Cableink in 1986.:)

Ulsterman 1690

DTT is going to be the death of cable (as well as MMDS and deflectors) in Ireland unless the operators very quickly get their fingers out of their @r$€;s and provide the kind of services cable subscribers in other countries have enjoyed for years like high speed broadband, telephone services, interactive digital TV/radio with a decent selection of channels with proper reception at a reasonable price.

Telefís

Yes, though going by the speed of DTT implementation I think they've enough time for another cuppa somehow....

That's in interest snippet from the 2001 Act bk; didn't the Good Friday Agreement include a commitment to increasing RTÉ's and TG4's penetration into Northern Ireland too? So it's tit for tat really

So it really is just challenges by the digitals like Sky etc that would seem to be in the way of most of the British hopping on DTT...

In terms of cable and its future with DTT, I'm thinking of people like my grandmother in Dublin who will have no interest whatever in additional television/telephone/internet services or packages - so will she end up having to put up an aerial right in the heart of Dublin city for the first time in thirty years?!
Or will it end up being the case that a critical mass will be reached, with most people subscribing to some cable service, meaning that a monority will effectively be subsidised for recevingf the basic DTT offering on cable?
Will any of the cable companies be obliged to retain existing customers like that?

paulm17781

I think we are getting a little over the top here. Cable isn't going to die the minute DTT comes in. We all thought that once there was competition in the phone service and Eircon still have about 80%.

1) DTT has to be good.
2) people will have to get antennae

it will be along time in Ireland before it kills cable.

bk

Telef&#237 wrote: »

Yes, though going by the speed of DTT implementation I think they've enough time for another cuppa somehow....

And don't forget that Chorus (LGI/UPC/NTL) are heavily invloved in DTT, so another way to fight it is to won it. That isn't good for competition in Ireland and is why I think the UK chaneels will be on a pay-tv system over DTT, so it won't have much effect on cable.

Telef&#237 wrote: »

That's in interest snippet from the 2001 Act bk; didn't the Good Friday Agreement include a commitment to increasing RTÉ's and TG4's penetration into Northern Ireland too? So it's tit for tat really

Yes, it was included as part of the whole cross border cooperation stuff.

Telef&#237 wrote: »

So it really is just challenges by the digitals like Sky etc that would seem to be in the way of most of the British hopping on DTT...

Yes, plus the uk channels not being interested in it.

Telef&#237 wrote: »

In terms of cable and its future with DTT, I'm thinking of people like my grandmother in Dublin who will have no interest whatever in additional television/telephone/internet services or packages - so will she end up having to put up an aerial right in the heart of Dublin city for the first time in thirty years?!

I'm not sure exactly what you are asking, but DTT in Dublin probably won't need an external aerial, it should be easily receivable with rabbits ears.

Of course if she currently has cable, then she doesn't have to worry, analogue cable will be around in Dublin for a very long time to come. Too many people in Dublin depend on it and aren't interested in digital.

Telef&#237 wrote: »

Or will it end up being the case that a critical mass will be reached, with most people subscribing to some cable service, meaning that a monority will effectively be subsidised for recevingf the basic DTT offering on cable?
Will any of the cable companies be obliged to retain existing customers like that?

Cable already has critical mass, Dublin has the highest cable penetration in Europe.

I think you have digital cable, analogue cable and DTT mixed up, You can't receive DTT on cable, DTT is Digital Terestial TV, it is Digital TV transmitted over the air and received by an aerial. Digital cable is digital tv channels transmitted over the standard cable network. Analogue cable is TV channels tranmsitted by analogue means over cable. The main Irish channels will likely be available on all platforms.

The cable companies aren't obliged to do anything, however they are unlikely to shut down the analogue for many years to come, it is simply to widely used.

bk

paulm17781 wrote:

it will be along time in Ireland before it kills cable.

IMO it will never kill cable, in fact I think DTT is a rather short to medium term technology that will eventually be killed off by cable/DSL/FTTH/wireless BB carrying TV.

The problem with DTT is that it is only capable of delivering TV, with only very limited interactivity, little possiblity of VoD or HD. In time, there won't be separate TV, phone, BB networks, instead most people will get all services via IP through one pipe (cable/DSL/FTTH/wireless BB) with lots of extra value services like HD and VoD.

DTT is only to fill a gap until this becomes a widespread reality (you can already do it with NTL), it may survive as a niche product to serve older people not interested in triple-play products and people with no access to the BB platforms.

paulm17781

bk wrote:

IMO it will never kill cable, in fact I think DTT is a rather short to medium term technology

I would think you are right. By along time I meant not in my life time (I'm in my 20s)

Freddie59

Ulsterman 1690 wrote:

DTT is going to be the death of cable (as well as MMDS and deflectors) in Ireland unless the operators very quickly get their fingers out of their @r$€;s and provide the kind of services cable subscribers in other countries have enjoyed for years like high speed broadband, telephone services, interactive digital TV/radio with a decent selection of channels with proper reception at a reasonable price.

As I've already said, I have NTL and for a sum total of €65 per month I get:

Analogue TV (17 TV/17 Radio) which I can use in any room in the house for both TV & radio. Different channels at the same time, etc, etc.

Digital TV (basic pack). 100+ TV & radio channels.

1 Meg Broadband

Blueface VOIP with unlimited local/national calls to Irish landlines.

Both my analogue and digital tv services are, IMO, perfect (hard to tell the difference actually) and the only thing missing from your list is interactive, which holds no attraction for me personally.:)

Telefís

Where are you based in the country Freddie59 can I ask - sounds like an attactive package for someone I know...

Yes bk, I think I kinda know what DTT is somehow - though thanks for the help anyway!

What I mean is someone like my granny, who currently has analogue cable, and will not want to subscribe to any digital package. So when DTT eventually rolls out, with the big 'if' of the British on board too, where is that going to leave her? Going on the assumption that an analogue switch-off date will eventually be reached meaning analogue cable will be switched off, and that she will not want any digital cable, will that mean that she'd have to use DTT in the centre of Dublin, albeit in rabbit ears format?

Or as I say, cable has such a critical mass in Dublin that a few nay-sayers like her will probably be held onto anyway free of charge by the cable companies in supplying the basic package available on the DTT platform in the hope that they will eventually sign up to some subscription services?

A lot of ifs in there I know, but just a thought...

When you said it's 'not good for competition' to have the British going FTA on DTT - surely precisely the opposite is the case?! How can protecting the interests of three digital providers from British broadasters who are willing to go FTA (which I very much so expect with the commericals in the UK, whatever about the BBC) be in the interests of competition? Surely is it not the interest of the consumer that take precedent over that of some bickering mega-companies?

bk

Telef&#237 wrote: »

What I mean is someone like my granny, who currently has analogue cable, and will not want to subscribe to any digital package. So when DTT eventually rolls out, with the big 'if' of the British on board too, where is that going to leave her? Going on the assumption that an analogue switch-off date will eventually be reached meaning analogue cable will be switched off, and that she will not want any digital cable, will that mean that she'd have to use DTT in the centre of Dublin, albeit in rabbit ears format?

Ah, I think I understand the confusion now. Whatever happens the Irish channels (probably including a few new ones like Setanta) will be transmitted absolutely free, no subscription needed. So your granny would just need to get a DigitalTV box (about €50) and that would be the only cost.

What we are talking about is that the UK channels could be free or they could be carried as additional channels which would be encrypted and which you would need to pay a subscription to watch. Either way the Irish channels would be free.

This happens in the UK Freeview system, about 30 channels are free while another 12 or so you have to pay for.

Telef&#237 wrote: »

Or as I say, cable has such a critical mass in Dublin that a few nay-sayers like her will probably be held onto anyway free of charge by the cable companies in supplying the basic package available on the DTT platform in the hope that they will eventually sign up to some subscription services?

You have to pay for analogue and this is very unlikely to change. The cable companies can drop analogue whenever they want, it is completely up to them. NTL are likely to hold onto analogue for a very long time as it is just too popular. However Chorus may drop analogue soon, as it is scrambled and you need a box to unscramble it, so there isn't any great loss in going all digital.

Telef&#237 wrote: »

When you said it's 'not good for competition' to have the British going FTA on DTT - surely precisely the opposite is the case?! How can protecting the interests of three digital providers from British broadasters who are willing to go FTA (which I very much so expect with the commericals in the UK, whatever about the BBC) be in the interests of competition? Surely is it not the interest of the consumer that take precedent over that of some bickering mega-companies?

You misunderstood me, of course the UK channels going FTA would be absolutely great for driving competition, as the cable and sat companies would have to drop prices and improve their services to compete.

Freddie59

Telef&#237 wrote: »

Where are you based in the country Freddie59 can I ask - sounds like an attactive package for someone I know...

Waterford City.:)

Telefís

Thanks!

Yes bk, again I know about DTT - I'm just pointing out that for the first time in 30 years in the centre of Dublin City there is the prospect that some people will once again be returning to a terrestrial system. It's just interesting - even if a small minority of cases.

What is not very clear however, is when an analogue switch-off happens with the terrestrial system (though goodness knows that happens) will the cable systems be ready to be switched off by then? Will digital cable have been marketed as strongly as DTT so they could both be turned off at the same time?

Telefís

Meant to ask Freddie - are the broadband and telephone services provided through the co-ax cable coming into the house, or do they use the existing telephone infrastructure? And do you still have to pay Eircom's line rental?

watty

Proper Digital Cable services the BB, TV and phone are all on the coax. No eircom line need.

Same with Digiweb metro Wireless system, except it has no TV channels (yet).

paulm17781

Telef&#237 wrote: »

Meant to ask Freddie - are the broadband and telephone services provided through the co-ax cable coming into the house, or do they use the existing telephone infrastructure? And do you still have to pay Eircom's line rental?

NTL Broadband is through cable. Blueface is a seperate VOIP service. You don't need an Eircon phone line but get all the benefits for a fraction of the cost.

Freddie59

Telef&#237 wrote: »

Meant to ask Freddie - are the broadband and telephone services provided through the co-ax cable coming into the house, or do they use the existing telephone infrastructure? And do you still have to pay Eircom's line rental?

As Watty says - all through the NTL TV cable. I'm bringing my number over to Blueface now and then I won't need the landline....so no €24.18 monthly line rental.:)

Telefís

Yeah, just rub it in why don't you


Thanks for that - I just visited their site and it seems like a great service!
Does the co-ax go into a box of some kind , which then links into the modem?
And then the ATA plugs into the modem?

paulm17781

Telef&#237 wrote: »

Thanks for that - I just visited their site and it seems like a great service!
Does the co-ax go into a box of some kind , which then links into the modem?
And then the ATA plugs into the modem?

Co-Ax -> Cable modem -> Cat 5 -> ATA.

Freddie59

paulm17781 wrote:

Co-Ax -> Cable modem -> Cat 5 -> ATA.

And then just plug the phone into the RJ45 jack on the ATA.:)

Freddie59

Telef&#237 wrote: »

Yeah, just rub it in why don't you

Sorry.:( Wasn't the intention.:)