Buddhism: Religion or Philosophy?

Bodhidharma

I was wondering what the Buddhists on the Boards think about the idea of Buddhism as a Religion?
I have only been Studying Buddhism for 6 months and so i am open to correction, but i cant see how it can be considered a religion. Surely it is a Philosophy. There are none of the attributes associated with religions and the Buddha was not a deity. I would like to hear any opinions on this, especially any info about how it is practiced as a religion.

Asiaprod

Bodhidharma wrote:

I was wondering what the Buddhists on the Boards think about the idea of Buddhism as a Religion?.

I have been a Buddhist for 20 years now, and to me it is a Philosophy and not a religion. We do not defer to any deity who created us. Buddhism is a path to self-realization. A journey to discover our hidden potential.

Goodshape

Then why identify yourself as 'a Buddhist'?

Surely if it were a philosophy then you are simply a philospher. Are you willing to consider ideas which contradict the teachings of Buddah?

re·li·gion (rĭ-lĭj'ən)
1.

1. Belief in and reverence for a supernatural power or powers regarded as creator and governor of the universe.
2. A personal or institutionalized system grounded in such belief and worship.

2. The life or condition of a person in a religious order.
3. A set of beliefs, values, and practices based on the teachings of a spiritual leader.
4. A cause, principle, or activity pursued with zeal or conscientious devotion.

I think 3 and 4 could be used to define Budhisim. No?


(now, personally, I'd consider myself to be a (bit of a) philosopher -- I think some of the ideas and teachings in Budhisim are fantastic, but I would not have enough devotion to them to call myself a Budhist)

Asiaprod

Goodshape wrote:

Then why identify yourself as 'a Buddhist'?

Thats a strange question, are you sure you have written down correctly what you meant to say.
I identify as a Buddhist because I am one and have been one for a long time, I took a vow in a temple and recived my beads book and mandala to prove that I am committed to being a Buddhist. For the record, the ceremony is called Godeukai over here and is a reenactment of the Ceromony in the Air at Eagle Peak.

Surely if it were a philosophy then you are simply a philospher.

No, but I am one of those too. Try to define Buddhism this way: It is a philosophy with an integrated spiritual aspect

Are you willing to consider ideas which contradict the teachings of Buddah?

I would approach that question differently, I would look to see does the idea really contradict the teachings of Buddha. If it did, how did it. Then I would evaluate the idea to see how I could apply/change it to my life while remaining true to my ideals.

There seems to be a little confussion about the role of the Buddha. He is not thought of in the same way the Christian God for example is thought of. We see him as a teacher, a human who through his own actions attained enlightenment. He is not a creator god, we do not have any of those. He was responsible for his own enlightenment, as I am responsible for mine. He left me notes, guidelins and his own thoughts on how he gained enlightenment to use as tools to gain my own. Nobody has ever said that enlightenment is the same for each individual, it is unique to each individual. Nobody has ever defined what enlightenment is, no one has ever come back to tell us what it is like. It is probably as a result of the faith that individuals employ in their commitment to Buddhism that people often brand it as a religion. People can have great difficulties in seperating the words faith and religion.

I think 3 and 4 could be used to define Budhisim. No?

Yes, 1. 2. and 3 do not apply. But why try to pin Buddhism as a religion. Who made the original definition of religion that you have quoted. As a Bhuddist I think I should to know if I follow a religion of not. I do not, I follow a philosophy with an integrated spiritual aspect

[quote](now, personally, I'd consider myself to be a (bit of a) philosopher -- I think some of the ideas and teachings in Budhisim are fantastic, but I would not have enough devotion to them to call myself a Budhist)[/quote]

Fair comment, all I can say is that with age ones perspective and understanding changes. When I was 20 I could never see myself being a Buddhist, now at 50 I could never see myself being anything other than a Buddhist. I am sure it has also helped me greatly living and studying over here where Buddhism is a way of life.

AnonymousBloke

Interesting topic.

Ultimately religion and philosophy are just labels, and mean different things to different people. By certain external standards Buddhism might be classed as a religion. For me it's been as far from any prior 'religious' experience as I could imagine.

Even the word Buddhist is really just a label. What does it mean? I avoided calling myself a Buddhist for a while, because I didn't want to alienate certain friends and family. Ironically they started calling me a Buddhist first. For myself, being a Buddhist simply means that the philosophical/spiritual/pyschological system set out by the historical Buddha is the one that has most relevance and meaning for me. As time has passed its relevance has continued to increase. I'm open to other ideas too, and have gained much more of an appreciation for the riches of other traditions/systems through my experience in Buddhism.

It's perfectly viable to read Buddhist texts, gain benefit from them, and not class yourself as a Buddhist, or indeed an anything. It's also viable to call yourself a Christian/Muslim/Paganist or whatever and gain benefit from Buddhism, and vice versa.

From the point of view of Buddhist teachers I've met, the whole question of whether it's classed as a religion or a philosophy is kind of irrelevant- it doesn't really matter either way.

Hope that helps

Goodshape

Asiaprod wrote:

Thats a strange question, are you sure you have written down correctly what you meant to say.

I think so, in the context of the discussion. My thinking was that 'being a buddhist' is more than simply 'studying budhisim'. You do not need to take a vow in a temple and recieve a beads book and mandala to simply study and philosophise over the texts.

These things I think set it apart as a religion -- while still being worlds away from the Judeo-Christian models we are most familure with here in 'the west'.

I would approach that question differently, I would look to see does the idea really contradict the teachings of Buddha. If it did, how did it. Then I would evaluate the idea to see how I could apply/change it to my life while remaining true to my ideals.

Groovy. That's one of the things I like about the religion (sorry )

But why try to pin Buddhism as a religion. Who made the original definition of religion that you have quoted.

The definition comes from answers.com (type religion into google and click 'definition').

Why pin Buddhisim as a religion? It really is just a case of symantics (as per AnonymousBloke's comments), and nothing at all worth arguing about. But in my mind the word Religion is still applicable (you have priests, temples, a 'folllowing' and - albeit simply guidelines - a way to live and prepare for an afterlife).

Prehaps as I learn more I'll change my mind. I can see how the open nature of the teachings could set it apart alright.

I follow a philosophy with an integrated spiritual aspect

That sounds like the best definition yet.

AnonymousBloke wrote:

Ultimately religion and philosophy are just labels, and mean different things to different people.

Quoted for truth. Arguing about labels can often get unneccessarily ugly. You just have to remember that no matter what, the map is not the territory

Asiaprod

Goodshape wrote:

I think so, in the context of the discussion. My thinking was that 'being a buddhist' is more than simply 'studying budhisim'. You do not need to take a vow in a temple and recieve a beads book and mandala to simply study and philosophise over the texts.;)

That is a valid point. I think for me, taking the vows and getting the book, beads and Mandala were just a personal act of commitment and acknowledgement that I wanted to walk this path of life. They were never something I had to do. As a matter of fact, I had to wait 6 months before they would accept me. Not for any bad reason, they just wanted me to be sure to myself that this was to be my true path. In Buddhism, the function of the priest is to support the public. Their life is given over to praying for and serving others. The prayers they offer are made to the universe (We call this the Natural Law) and not to a creator God. This is why, though it may not look so on the surface, I have great difficulties when I hear the word religion used because Buddhism could not be any further removed from the western concept of religions.

It also gave me access to teachers and documentation to support my search. I think of all the systems I know of, Buddhism must have the greatest number of first hand texts available for study. Granted they are written in old languages and have been translated time and time again, but they are still available in the original form. This is very much in contrast to say for example the Christian text of which nothing first hand exists and everything is some one else’s interpretation of what they thought was said or thought took place. It is interesting to note that documents are said to be held in Buddhist monasteries in Kashmir that attest to the Christian Jesus as having lived, taught and studied there during his missing years (12 – 30) till his return to India after a fictitious death. It is no wonder then that there would appear to be many parallels between Buddhism and Christian religions He is also said to be buried there at a place called Rosa Bal. Check out this link and read the accounts.
http://www.tombofjesus.com/home.htm

It is fascinating stuff. True or false, who knows?

twentycentshift

asiaprod- you have taught me some very important and beautiful things here. i know relatively little about buddhism, but enough to know that i seem to relate to the things i have read. my wife and i are both beginning a journey into the studying of buddhism, including attending a small temple here where we live.

i just wanted to thank you for your words and your demonstration of peaceful debate when confronted in this forum.

if you have anything else you think would be helpful to me, and to my wife, please let us know. we would both be interested in learning more.

Asiaprod

twentycentshift wrote:

asiaprod- you have taught me some very important and beautiful things here. i
if you have anything else you think would be helpful to me, and to my wife, please let us know. we would both be interested in learning more.

Thank you so much for those kind words. If I can help in anyway please feel free to ask. I suspect that you will both learn a lot and contribute a lot if you stay on this forum. Write freely what you feel, question what you dont understand. Buddhism is wonderful in the way it gives one fresh perspective. It is unique in that it condems nothing, but leaves that decission for you to make.
And dont worry, we Buddhist can get very angry and vocal, just ask JC on the christanity forum;)
No offense JC, I also value your imput.:)

twentycentshift

it's interesting, because my wife and i both feel the same way about the subject of buddhism- we are both drawn to the ideas and teachings in a way that makes us feel confortable and at ease. being raised in christian cultures (me in the u.s. and her in australia) we somehow find our heads turning toward this intersting philosophy.

i can speak for myself and say it feels completely right for me, and i get the feeling that i am at home when i read and discuss these ideas. (but i am cautious and i move slowly at all things, so i am pacing myself.)

it's odd but the only other time i have felt like that was when i was in the countryside of inverness, scotland. there was just an undeniable feeling of being at home, although i'd never been anywhere near there before.

well, i'll be reading these "buddhism" forums and posts, and i will surely communitcate with you some in the future.

thanks again.

Asiaprod

twentycentshift wrote:

I can speak for myself and say it feels completely right for me, and i get the feeling that I am at home when I read and discuss these ideas. (but i am cautious and i move slowly at all things, so i am pacing myself.)

A good approach, take your time, ask questions and debate.:)

Bodhidharma

In asking about this question i do not want to put labels on people. I wouldn't like it myself, and i know that they are an easy way to close people's mind.

I do not consider myself a religious person, life after death and the whole dogmatic belief systems put me off that, but i do consider myself to be spiritual. I believe Buddhism is a way of looking at life, the four noble truths and the eightfold path are very important to me.

Attaining enlightenment is obviously a much more difficult task but even if i never attain it, my life will still be all the better for living the eightfold path. As a "beginer" in Buddhism, i find this path to be very, very practical. If i never became a Buddhist i can see how you could gain from taking bits and pieces of the philosophy and trying to integrate them into your life. I am saying this because anyone interested in Buddhism should know that it is a Practical Philosophy, in my humble opinion.

AnonymousBloke

Bodhidharma wrote:

If i never became a Buddhist i can see how you could gain from taking bits and pieces of the philosophy and trying to integrate them into your life. I am saying this because anyone interested in Buddhism should know that it is a Practical Philosophy, in my humble opinion.

Well put.

I remember reading somewhere (will try to look it up) "when I try to be a 'Buddhist' I drive my friends and family crazy. When I try to be a Buddha we get along swimmingly"

I think in the west we're so conditioned by prior exposure to religions that when we encounter a tradition like Buddhism we bring that baggage with us. We think we need to become a 'something', and acquire all the external trappings, rituals, customs etc, which are really just cultural accretions. I think the longer I'm a 'Buddhist' the less important that stuff is to me- inner transformation is the thing. The external things can act as a support, and they can get in the way- it's all down to our attitude in my opinion. Anything can become ritualised. Don't know that reality can though

Asiaprod

Bodhidharma wrote:

I am saying this because anyone interested in Buddhism should know that it is a Practical Philosophy, in my humble opinion.

What you consider to be just your humble opinion, I consider to be a very valuble bit of advice and spot on.:)

Yoda

Goodshape wrote:

Then why identify yourself as 'a Buddhist'?

For one thing, in "holy Catholic Ireland" it's really very useful to be able to answer "I'm a Buddhist" when people ask you what "religion" you "are". Many, many people in Ireland assume that one is "Catholic" or "Protestant" and as far as I can see they take the answer to be a source of information to help them pigeon-hole people. Such people are taken aback when the answer isn't "Catholic" or "Protestant". I've even been asked "Is that a Catholic Buddhist or a Protestant Buddhist?" from people who seem to need to reinforce their prejudices.

Yoda

Asiaprod wrote:

I took a vow in a temple and recived my beads book and mandala to prove that I am committed to being a Buddhist.

Of course such external "proofs" are unnecessary. For my part, while many years ago I did for tradition's sake recite "Buddham saranam gacchâmi, dhammam saranam gacchâmi, sangham saranam gacchâmi", when I wished to align myself with Gotama's teachings, I did it on my own, not in a temple or anything.

Goodshape

Yoda wrote:

I've even been asked "Is that a Catholic Buddhist or a Protestant Buddhist?" from people who seem to need to reinforce their prejudices.

Ha! That's brilliant. From living up the north of the country I can certainly relate to that sort of thinking (when answering 'well, actually I'm niether' just doesn't cut it).

What I've taken from this discussion in any case, is that Buddhisim does indeed seem to be more of a philosophy than a religion. Although I had a conversation about it with a friend yesterday (I'm planing to enrole in a couple of courses in the Buddhist centre in town) and he had a hard enough time seeing it that way -- that I could study it without necessarily being "a buddhist" (nevermind what "being a buddhist" actually entails!).

These labels are often more beneficial to others than yourself I find.

Asiaprod

Yoda wrote:

I did it on my own, not in a temple or anything.

And fair play you. The paths are many.
In my case, I became interested in it when I came to Japan and just felt it would be crazy of me not to experience it through the priests, temples and rituals. I love ritual for the sake of ritual. When I was a catholic I was head alter boy. I did not give a toss for the mass, but I loved the ritual of the Latin mass and Benediction. It added a facet of enjoyment. With Buddhism it added a facet of joy. I am glad I did it. It added an element of participation and giving or returning for me.:)

Love the story Yoda re Catholic Buddhist or a Protestant Buddhist, nice one.
Go for gold and tell them you are an Atheistic Buddhist, should make their eyes pop.

AnonymousBloke

Asiaprod wrote:

Go for gold and tell them you are an Atheistic Buddhist, should make their eyes pop.

Beruthiel

Buddhism: Religion or Philosophy

I consider it a philosophy
as an atheist/agnostic you can follow buddhism as it does not require you to believe in any god.
it's teachings are useful in everyday life, it's wonderfully thoughtful and stretches your mind

god's toy

Love this thread! so refreshing to see a debate going in a grown up manner.

Thanks everyone!

Originally Posted by Asiaprod
I took a vow in a temple and recived my beads book and mandala to prove that I am committed to being a Buddhist.

Mine was over the Internet! one day on on a chat site I met a Buddhist monk from Nepal and we started talking, from the first moment I set eyes on him and seeing him in his robes (on the webcam) I just 'knew' it all was going to make sanes for me, my life, my feelings, my idea's, who, what and why I was... all of it!

We chatted/debated the teachings for weeks on end, I suppose to make sure it was what I really wanted and fully understood, to know I was ready for all that came with it not just caught up in a moment. It meant so mush to me to talk with such a gentle loving soul and I felt so hounder just to sit and chat with him over the net.

He gave me a name "Sumedha", (That I now use in all Buddest related things) he sung many songs of the Buddha's teaching and we then preformed the ritual were I took refuge and 'became' a Buddhist.

Years later he has his own temple now in Canada and it's doing well
Sometimes I really want to just up and leave everything here to join him (or any temple for that matter) just to get away from all this distraction we make for ourselves and become something more than this life allows me to be... I really feel it is what I was in my last life but yet in this one something holds me back.

I don't think people really need to receive anything to become a Buddhist, but an open heart and loving soul is a good way to start, oh and taking refuge of course.

Thanks for your post,

With Metta.

Asiaprod

God'sToy wrote:

Love this thread! so refreshing to see a debate going in a grown up manner.

It is indeed, I only wish more people would get involved, there is so much to learn from each other

Mine was over the Internet! one day on on a chat site

What an amazing way to discover Buddhism. It reminds me of that Buddhist proverb: When the student is ready the teacher will appear. For me, I had to deliver some work that a worker in my company (that I had never met, or even knew off) had not been able to collect. I just knew the moment I met him that I had something to learn. We have now been the best of friends for 20 years, both moved to be closer to each other, and we both now learn from each other daily. Again another proverb rings true: if the student does not surpass the teacher, the teacher has failed.

Sometimes I really want to just up and leave everything here to join him (or any temple for that matter) just to get away from all this distraction we make for ourselves and become something more than this life allows me to be... I really feel it is what I was in my last life but yet in this one something holds me back.

I copy you here. This has been my dream, but it is not practical for me as I took on the role of a father. I imagine the peace and quite. It is the one big thing wrong with the world today, nobody finds time to be alone with themselves to reflect, thereby to discover.

I don't think people really need to receive anything to become a Buddhist, but an open heart and loving soul is a good way to start, oh and taking refuge of course.

Yes I agree, but!
What I learned was the Mudas (hand positions) which are an important gesture to adopt to draw good forces to me. The Mandalas, which help to focus one, and some sutras and chants which help focus concentration and understanding.

I liken it to when I started playing guitar 35 years ago.
In the beginning I could not even tune the guitar, so I made very little progress.
I learned to tune it and bought a book of chords, I started to make progress but was restricted to simple chords.
I met my teacher of 12 years and learned bar chords and jazz chords and now I play in a couple of bands.

I needed to take theses learning steps to progress, but the real progress came when I accepted tuition and guidance from someone who knew better than I.
What am I trying to say.....Oh yes. Of course one can go it alone, in reality though, it take the ideas and guidance of others to help us progress even further. These include using external means such as the Mudras, Sutra and chants, and the Mandala. They are not trappings but really are tools that help us on our quest.

With Metta.

god's toy

Yes my friend you are right in everything you said here:)

I was so happy to see boards.ie get a Buddhism forum to use and even more so to see it being used by people like yourself and Yoda and others, you dont know what it means to people like us who want to learn but find it hard being alone Buddhist be it in the hometown or just in general.

Thanks from all of us for being who you are, very happy to know you.


In love and light.


Sumedha.


I am sorry if we are off topic.

Asiaprod

Aw, now you made me blush:o
Please feel free to ask any questions. I do not have all the answers, I am also on the same road. Sometimes I give advice, more often I learn from others. Its nice to know I am not alone on the road, and that is also full of other travellers just like myself.

DublinWriter

It it both and it is neither.

John Doe

DublinWriter wrote:

It it both and it is neither.

Ah, yes. But the ramifications of post-modern existentialist paradigms are integral to the multi-layered gateways moving forward.
There. I think that's about as clear as the previous post. :v:

Asiaprod

DublinWriter wrote:

It it both and it is neither.

Van Morrisson - Into the Mystic (1980)

?

John Doe

John Doe wrote:

Ah, yes. But the ramifications of post-modern existentialist paradigms are integral to the multi-layered gateways moving forward.
There. I think that's about as clear as the previous post. :v:

Eschew obfuscation?

John Doe

Indeed.

DublinWriter

Alright then, I'll give you the 'non-Enlightened' answer!

The central teachings of the Buddha are called 'The Dharma'. This comprises the central philsophic core of Buddhism and came from yer man himself. This is what I'd call the 'philosophy'.

Schools of Buddhism later developed based on this central Dharma. These are what I'd define as the 'relgions'.

A summary of which can be found here...

http://photos1.blogger.com/blogger/5101/671/1600/buddhist-history.0.jpg

...but that's a very very high-level overview of the schisms. Hundred's of schools of Buddhism emerged and the break up makes the whole Catholic/Prodestant thing look very simple indeed.

The current Dalai Lama went on a major PR drive about ten years ago to warn certain Buddhists about following 'evil' schools of Buddhism who worship so-called 'dark-Gods'.

Schools of Buddhism even engaged in full-on wars, noteably in Tibet around the 8th/9th Centuries.

I personally follow the Mahayana School...sorry...religion!

Here's a good summary of it and how it differs from classic Tibetian (Hinayana) Buddhism...

http://www.geocities.com/Athens/8916/index2.html

DublinWriter

god's toy wrote:

Sometimes I really want...

A very dangerous phrase for a Buddhist to use!

god's toy

DublinWriter wrote:

A very dangerous phrase for a Buddhist to use!

I walked on the wild side maybe.

Anyway i'm sure you know what I was trying to say.


Peace to you and yours.

Asiaprod

DublinWriter wrote:

The central teachings of the Buddha are ......

DublinWriter wrote:

Alright then, I'll give you the 'non-Enlightened' answer!

Always the best one.

The central teachings of the Buddha are called 'The Dharma'. This comprises the central philosophic core of Buddhism and came from yer man himself. This is what I'd call the 'philosophy'.

Agreed,

Schools of Buddhism later developed based on this central Dharma. These are what I'd define as the 'religion's.

Also agreed, about 15,000 at the last count.

Hundred's of schools of Buddhism emerged and the break up makes the whole Catholic/Protestant thing look very simple indeed.

It does indeed, the number of Christianity splits and breaks pale by comparison.

The current Dalai Lama went on a major PR drive about ten years ago to warn certain Buddhists about following 'evil' schools of Buddhism who worship so-called 'dark-Gods'.

Yes, I have two of his lecture tours on Video tape. I will try to turn them into movie files and post them. They are very informative.

Schools of Buddhism even engaged in full-on wars, notably in Tibet around the 8th/9th Centuries.

That is indeed where we got Kung Fu from.

I personally follow the Mahayana School...sorry...religion!

I do too, but I do not agree with the word religion. There is nothing religious about my practice.

Here's a good summary of it and how it differs from classic Tibetan (Hinayana) Buddhism...

An informative site, but it does not tell the whole story. One point not mentioned is how the original writings of the Buddha have come to be know as the Provisional teachings. These teaching were further refined as Buddhism spread westward into China and on down through Korea and Japan. The great thinker Tien Tai comes to mind here. The jist of this was that traditional Buddhism as it stood very much focused on leading the life of a monk. In fact, there was a period where only monks were capable of attaining enlightenment, not the common public. Hence the monks devoted their days to continued prayer for us common folk, and we common folk supported them for their efforts on our behalf. This eventually was deemed to be elitist and incorrect, since the Buddha himself stated that everyone is equal and everyone can gain enlightenment.
One of the more fascinating aspects of Buddhism is that it is a progressive belief system. Again it was said by the man himself "if you are not taking one step forward, you are taking two steps back"
So in essence we have a choice, we can become monks and devote our entire existence to praying for others, or we can be ordinary people and devote our life to learning and practicing in the real every day world. The choice is up to the individual. I choose to live in the real world.

hairyheretic

DublinWriter wrote:

The current Dalai Lama went on a major PR drive about ten years ago to warn certain Buddhists about following 'evil' schools of Buddhism who worship so-called 'dark-Gods'.

I'd be interested in hearing more on this aspect.

John Doe

Asiaprod wrote:

So in essence we have a choice, we can become monks and devote our entire existence to praying for others, or we can be ordinary people and devote our life to learning and practicing in the real every day world. The choice is up to the individual. I choose to live in the real world.

Excellent, I have been wondering about this topic for a while, namely whether it was possible to be a 'true Buddhist' without being a monk. That's a nice answer, I may be actually quite close to being a Buddhist. Oooh, 100th post!

Asiaprod

John Doe wrote:

Oooh, 100th post!

Wow, its my 500th and I just got made a 3 star general:D