Web Design Pricing

jjmax

Hi,

I've been asked to build a website for a solicitor's office.
The site will be simple enough, but there will be some work getting images and building on their current content.
I've had a look around for Irish solicitor's sites and the following one seems fine and appropriate to what they want -

http://www.solicitor.net/default.asp

How much would you charge to design a site like this?
I know this is a very broad, subjective, question but a rough idea is all I'm looking for.
My web skills are alright, I'm no programmer but I can design in XHTML and CSS.
This will be my first paying job so any help with pricing will be much appreciated.

Also, I'm thinking of designing the site using 'Joomla' or some CMS like that so they can update the content themselves. In your opinion is this a good idea? Or do you reckon it's better to keep them coming back for content management thus increasing business?

Roy16

I have a mate who has done simliar work for companys but very basic. One way you could charge is tell them you want say €15 per hour? But as this your first website for a company and you will accepting payment, I think about €250/€300 is a fair enough price. The end of the day you want them to be happy and you want them to maybe recommened you in the future or if they needed updated. I would suggest searching www.google.ie and checking what the average price is......

mneylon

How much do you value your time?

jjmax

Good question.
I won't be doing it for 250/300, but I don't want to price myself out of the market.
I was thinking around the €1K mark ex-vat.
Does this sound reasonable?
The dilemma is do I ask for more and risk losing the job.
If I go to low, then I won't be doing myself any favours in the long run, plus I feel I'm at a good enough level now that I should be getting decent money.
I've looked around as suggested and the prices vary quite a bit.
I'm doing this as part of my business, which is IT Service Provider.
At the moment I'm shooting in the dark, maybe 1000 is really high (or really low?).

mneylon

jjmax - A solicitor can afford to pay €1k (or a lot more)

Ultimately it is up to you to decide how much you value your skills and time. €300 is the kind of price a student or similar would charge for a small brochure site. I seriously doubt if any professional would even consider doing a site for that kind of money.

The other thing to consider is the parameters of the actual contract. If you honestly feel that you can do it all in less than a day, then maybe you can afford to charge less, but most clients will want changes and will not be happy with the first design you offer them....

If you search this board you will find plenty of previous discussions on this...

Ultimately it is up to you.

jjmax

Cheers Blacknight

That's what I wanted to hear.
I've heard figures from 150-500 before, and I always thought this would be way to little for anyone to make a living on, unless you were churning out poor designs from a frontpage template.
It's an area I'm hoping to do a lot more work in, so I want to start on the right foot.

mneylon

jjmax wrote:

I've heard figures from 150-500 before, and I always thought this would be way to little for anyone to make a living on, unless you were churning out poor designs from a frontpage template.

If you have zero overheads and live with your parents, you may be able to charge stupidly low prices....

Most people, however, have bills to pay...

If the potential client cannot understand that then tell them to find someone cheap but not to come crying back to you in a year's time ....

jjmax

True.

Thanks again for the input.

aido_2006

for a site like that i reckon 1k is v reasonable..

jjmax

Any thoughts on using Joomla or something like it as a content management system?

mneylon

Use whatever you are comfortable with

vector

Checkout the relevant Acts/Statutory instruments/Law Society Regulations on Solicitor's Advertising. There are still some restrictions.

Seth Brundle

jjmax wrote:

I was thinking around the €1K mark ex-vat.

Im not assuming you will charge them for it but it seems to be a common mistake by some people to charge VAT even though they are not registered for VAT with the revenue.

The Corinthian

Assuming we’re talking about a pure brochureware site (the site you mentioned also has some dynamic components - legal news articles, newsletter subscriptions, etc.), the €1,000 mark would not be a bad rough estimate.

Also you should factor in time spent in workshops, writing emails or on the phone to your client, on top of actual development. Bare in mind that you want to have your site spec signed off before you develop / design anything and that they give you all the site content in advance - if not you may well have to charge them to produce or change it.

Also, while you shouldn’t be a prick about deviations from the original spec after sign off, if they start making major changes (i.e. would take you longer that 30 minutes to implement) then charge them and be sure they know that you’ll do so.

jjmax

Thanks for all the feedback.
I've decided to charge extra if they want dynamic content like the www.solicitor.net site.
They got the price today and will be getting back to me tomorrow, I think they wanted it done on the cheap but what-the-hey.
They'll mull it over and make a decision, I'm happy that the price is fair for both of us, so if they go for a cheaper option that's their perogative.
Thanks too for the tips and I'll let you know how I get on, i.e. if I get the job!

The Corinthian

jjmax wrote:

I think they wanted it done on the cheap but what-the-hey.

If they complain that it’s too expensive give them the numbers of a few secondary schools.

clearz

For a static site like the one you have shown I would charge between 1000 - 1500 euro and if they wanted a CMS as well I would charge another 1000 euro on top of that. Make sure to tell them that when it is all finnished, agreed on and put live you charge 50 bucks an hour for any changes they want.

Also ask for maybe 500 up front. This will make your life a lot easier because it ties them into the deal so they wont mess you arround time wise suppling you with information etc.

The Corinthian

clearz wrote:

Also ask for maybe 500 up front. This will make your life a lot easier because it ties them into the deal so they wont mess you arround time wise suppling you with information etc.

There’s a few schools of thought on advances, when asked for; some go for a 50-50 split (50% on exchange of contracts and 50% on final delivery and sign off). Another model that’s used, more relevant if you include application development, is a 40-40-20 split. This is 40% on exchange of contracts and 40% on delivery of specified application / site and 20% following - a predetermined - debugging period.

Personally I wouldn’t ask for such a payment schedule on small amounts (<1k), but that’s just a personal opinion.

HTH

jjmax

Hey,

It looks like they're going with it.
I called them and I'm meeting tomorrow to iron out the details.
They were impressed by that site - http://www.solicitor.net (not done by me, won an award from the Sunday Business Post).
So they're looking for similar online forms which I'm going to charge extra for.
Thanks for all the input.
I'll get the site done and up in a few weeks, so I'll post a link later then to get feedback.
Thanks again folks and talk to you soon.

Eoin

The Corinthian wrote:

Also you should factor in time spent in workshops, writing emails or on the phone to your client, on top of actual development.

You mean for once a solicitor has to pay to be on the phone to you, rather than the other way around? I love it

The Corinthian

eoin_s wrote:

You mean for once a solicitor has to pay to be on the phone to you, rather than the other way around? I love it

If you’re doing a freelance project, like this, then you’re not just a designer or developer. You’re the salesperson, business analyst, accounts executive and project manager too - and last time I checked their time cost money too (and is often directly billable at that).

Eoin

The Corinthian wrote:

If you’re doing a freelance project, like this, then you’re not just a designer or developer. You’re the salesperson, business analyst, accounts executive and project manager too - and last time I checked their time cost money too (and is often directly billable at that).

Yes, I realise that. I just thought that the image of a solicitor being charged for talking on the phone, rather than him/her charging you was a funny one. Obviously not though.

The Corinthian

eoin_s wrote:

Yes, I realise that. I just thought that the image of a solicitor being charged for talking on the phone, rather than him/her charging you was a funny one. Obviously not though.

Sorry. Half of my friends are either solicitors or barristers and I employed solicitors/barristers so often over the years, that I tend to forget that people have a particular image of them.

clearz

The Corinthian wrote:

If you’re doing a freelance project, like this, then you’re not just a designer or developer. You’re the salesperson, business analyst, accounts executive and project manager too - and last time I checked their time cost money too (and is often directly billable at that).

I remember saying the excact same thing to somebody before on these forums where I noticed coders and designers saying things like 'Id do that for 200 bucks' or 'I could do that in a few hours'. As a freelancer you need to be well aware of the the many different rolls you will be fufilling and to charge accordingly.

Archytas

Wow.... I'm clearly underpricing myself out of the market..... 1k for a static website?? 1k?? and that site won awards??? Its not even symetrical? Tables instead of divs, its all images - so screenreaders cant use it at all... hmmmm...

Altheus

If you've never charged for a site before, you should be charging your time at minimum wage. As your standard goes up, and development goes down, you can raise the bar. Too many people overcharge for websites, and essentially have scared people from getting the work done. The amount of 5 page static sites I've seen people been charge £500 for is ridiculous.

Ensure you map out an time the entire project from start to finish. As soon as you've agreed to creating the site, that's when you start billing.

Here's the elements you should look at, and remember use minimum wage as your baseline.

Consultations and meetings
Pre-development, concept
Hosting and domain registration
Initial Design
Drafting
Proofing
Design
Development
Proofing
Revisions
Proofing
Finalise the project and sign off

If you do this you'll find the project will run up considerable, but you have to consider that your efficency is going to be pretty poor compared to a seasoned pro. Overall for a website of the quality of yours, a figured of €500 ex. vat, ex. hosting would be what I'd be looking at. That's 66 hours at €7.55 of your time, which is more than adequate, or at least should be.

If the project needs is extended beyond this time due to your own issues, i.e. the design isn't up to spec, this is what costs you the designer, and not the client.

After a few projects you can begin to charge more for your time, but you'll spend less time at it.

The Corinthian

Altheus wrote:

If you've never charged for a site before, you should be charging your time at minimum wage. As your standard goes up, and development goes down, you can raise the bar.

It’s a skilled job, even if the individual is inexperienced - it’s not packing shelves.

Too many people overcharge for websites, and essentially have scared people from getting the work done. The amount of 5 page static sites I've seen people been charge £500 for is ridiculous.

You’ve obviously never heard of a fixed cost.

If you intend to undertake any project in a professional manner, you’re going to be spending much of your time pursuing functions that will take up much the same time regardless of whether it’s a five or five hundred page site.

Given you went so far as to list many of the tasks involved, I’m astonished you don’t realize this.

Overall for a website of the quality of yours, a figured of €500 ex. vat, ex. hosting would be what I'd be looking at. That's 66 hours at €7.55 of your time, which is more than adequate, or at least should be.

It is if you live in some Third World Toilet.

What you’ve suggested as ‘adequate’, on the other hand is even below the National Minimum Wage. Starting small and charging more as you get better experience is one thing, but what you’re suggesting is frankly ridiculous.

If the project needs is extended beyond this time due to your own issues, i.e. the design isn't up to spec, this is what costs you the designer, and not the client.

If it is because the designer isn’t up to spec, certainly. If it’s because the client has simply changed their mind, that’s another matter.

Altheus

The Corinthian wrote:

It’s a skilled job, even if the individual is inexperienced - it’s not packing shelves.

If you've never done a professional site for money, then you are still an amateur. Quite frankly, any monkey can throw together a website these days. That's not to say you are a monkey, but there is more designers than work these days.

You’ve obviously never heard of a fixed cost.

Fixed cost would be applicable to web design firm who wish to ward away smaller jobs. I dont consider 5 pages of text anything more than a flyer design; which even Snap Printing wouldnt charge as much for.

If you intend to undertake any project in a professional manner, you’re going to be spending much of your time pursuing functions that will take up much the same time regardless of whether it’s a five or five hundred page site.

That's your problem, not the clients. It's up to you to ensure you use your time efficently. The difference between transcribing copy for 5 pages and 500 is huge, so is the proofing and editing. If you are professional, meetings will be concise, and you'll get your lunch paid for

Given you went so far as to list many of the tasks involved, I’m astonished you don’t realize this.

What? By far and away the longest part of putting together a site is design and development cycles. The rest of the job should only take up 1/3 of your time.

It is if you live in some Third World Toilet.

What? Last time I checked 500 bones will get a little further than a hole in the ground and bag of mashed peanut paste.

What you’ve suggested as ‘adequate’, on the other hand is even below the National Minimum Wage. Starting small and charging more as you get better experience is one thing, but what you’re suggesting is frankly ridiculous.

Sigh, I apologise. I forgot how anal people get. It's 7.65, so you're technically only getting paid for 65 and a quarter hours, so be sure to spend a few minutes extra on the tea breaks.

If it is because the designer isn’t up to spec, certainly. If it’s because the client has simply changed their mind, that’s another matter.

Well, the other matter could be the difference between losing the job or taking the hit, so make sure that the client knows exactly what they'll get at the end of the day.

Anyway away from this drivel.

Any programming and back end work should be charged separately to the design work. A fixed fee works best here, and maintainence charges discussed below.

I've suggested €500 for 65 hours and 20 minutes work (excluding your tax, so it's above minimum wage), for your first job that you charge for. Considering you'll spend a proportion of that time researching, finding code, fonts, stock photos and such, I think it's a reasonable. The next time round, and probably this time, you'll have a lot of this stuff at your disposal.

If you think if you're planning to work on a few more sites, it's a good idea to get yourself a decent server space so you can also make a little on the hosting, and yearly renewal fees. If the current host doesnt support the backend you wish to use for example.

Once the job is done, I would suggest that you charge a consultation fee of €25, and around €20 an hour for any work thereafter.

If you want, you could even work out a service agreement, whereby they pay a fixed rate for quarterly or monthly updates. This would be the best scenario should you use a content management system, although be warned, often your mobile becomes the technical support line, so don't be afraid to charge anything up to €150 a month for this.

The Corinthian

Altheus wrote:

If you've never done a professional site for money, then you are still an amateur.

An amateur does not equate to an unskilled, minimum wage, job.

Quite frankly, any monkey can throw together a website these days. That's not to say you are a monkey, but there is more designers than work these days.

There’s a difference between any monkey and any computer literate monkey that you seem to have failed to grasp. Any monkey and I’d agree with using minimum wage as a metre, but the latter already raises the stakes.

Fixed cost would be applicable to web design firm who wish to ward away smaller jobs. I dont consider 5 pages of text anything more than a flyer design; which even Snap Printing wouldnt charge as much for.

OK, you don’t actually understand what a fixed cost is.

For example, in the case of client workshops; you might spend; let’s say two days for the sake of argument, with a client pinning down the scope of a 500-page site. Does that mean that for a 5-page site the workshop will last 10 minutes? Or perhaps while not taking as long as for a larger site it’ll still take up, say, half a day, regardless of the size of the site?

Look at the other end of the project cycle and ask how much time is spent on accounts? Does an invoice for a 5-page site take less time to draw up, send and case up for payment than one for a 500-page site?

Even, for the sake of argument, ignoring such costs as rent or equipment, there are certain time overheads in any project that simply not scaleable, but pretty much fixed (or close to).

Additionally, you’re with one hand talking about amateurs and with the other hand about professional companies that have ‘conveyer belt’ processes in place. You can’t compare one with the other.

That's your problem, not the clients. It's up to you to ensure you use your time efficently. The difference between transcribing copy for 5 pages and 500 is huge, so is the proofing and editing. If you are professional, meetings will be concise, and you'll get your lunch paid for

No it’s not. Certain functions of the business are not scalable, that is a reality of business. While in your perfect world, it would be wonderful to say that it takes n number of hours to do a y-page site and x*100 number of hours to do a (y*100)-page site, that’s not how business, and reality works.

What? Last time I checked 500 bones will get a little further than a hole in the ground and bag of mashed peanut paste.

So you can live on that wage then?

Well, the other matter could be the difference between losing the job or taking the hit, so make sure that the client knows exactly what they'll get at the end of the day.

That is naturally a factor in any project, but I’ve never seen it as you describe, if you’ve properly agreed on the spec prior to development.

Anyway away from this drivel.

Then stop posting.

jjmax

Just to clarify,

I did not do the site at www.solicitor.net.
I only use it as an example of what I am hoping to accomplish with the site I'll be doing for my client.
I like that site though, nice and simple design, but has enough there to keep people coming back - "conveyancing calculator", etc....
I might be wrong, but I'd say the company that did that site charged a lot more than €1,000ex.
If anyone knows maybe they'd let us know.

As for the other issue of what to charge.
I really asked the question with an idea of what I wanted to get already in mind.
If I'd been told €500, I'd have still gone with my final figure of €1K+, although I wouldn't have been as confident putting it to my client.
To put it in perspective.
The main part of my business is as an IT Consultant.
I do everything from troubleshoot PCs, build servers, install networks, source equipment, for businesses and schools.
My base hourly rate is €65.
That tends to shock a few people who do this type of work on a 'nixer' basis
The rate fluctuates:
i.e. if I'm doing a network that's going to take 3 days to install, I use the hourly rate as a guide, but the final cost is considerably less than it would be if I charged per hour.
on the flipside, if I have to travel 30miles for a one hour job I add on a callout charge.
There's a bit more too it, but that's the general idea.

How much? is the question that plagues anyone starting out in business.
On my Start Your Own Business course the only answer we were given was that - "Nobody knows"
I've a mate who's a landscaper and the philosophy he has is - "Get a price in mind that you're happy with and when you get to the place if there's a Beemer in the driveway - Double it!"
I'm not condoning this approach, but that's what works for him.
So, if you're happy with €7.65/hr and it works for you then go with it.
It's a complex issue, but that's what it comes down to - Whatever you're happy to get for your time.
That's just my opinion, and maybe I'm way off.

Altheus

Down with this sort of thing.

I'm not sure where people are pulling their facts from. I charge considerably more than €7.65 an hour for designing a site, however I still charge within reason. Personally I have a portfolio, experience as well as excellent references from top-level staff at three major international brands. Sites I have worked on have cost upwards of €150,000 all in all, but my own personal work would cost a lot less.

An analysis of the site solicitor.net for example..

Single page template, no royalties on photographs, conveyancy calculator.

If you work off my guideline, you've got 40 hours to get a good design and the entire copy for the site done, and 25 hours set aside for meetings, proofing, revisions, and paperwork.

The conveyancy calculator looks like a specific ASP application, so I'd charge this at a fixed rate, something like €150.

What you haven't mentioned is what level of design your going to have to do either, so I'm working off the presumption that you have a logo and all the copy to work with already. Brand design is a much more specialised, and in my opinion, art. If you are designing this, then you must charge at high rate for your work, as it will likely be reproduced heavily.

Unlike a few hundred lines of HTML, the odd bit of CSS, and a few GIFs, this is what separates good designers from average designers, and most certainly dictates the rates at which you can charge. By the sound of things your more coming from the IT/Technical side of things, so without making too many assumptions, I'll presume you have a decent knowledge of design beyond what you've seen on the web.

If you look at the designers of that site, webtrade.ie. They've got a long list of awards, testimonials, respectable clients, as well as the resources to manage any job that gets thrown at them. My best guess price for Solicitor.net based on those fact, would somewhere in the region of €2,500 +

If you read through the case study too, they also have done a huge amount of search engine optimisation... big money these days.

The logo also looks to be the work of webtrade.ie, so they've probably charge for a brand design, and might even have gotten a print deal, for business cards/letterhead/compliment slips/invoices etc.

For me it comes down to this, if you're starting out at design, keep the price low at the beginning and the standard of work high, steadily increasing the price from job-to-job, say 50 cent per hour per job. Word of mouth will spread, and before long you'll have a portfolio of work, and hopefully a steady stream of jobs. With some good luck and if you're good enough you'll soon be confidently charging upwards of €1500 per job, with a list of extremely happy clients and references.

I'll give you an example. My firm were doing a job for a large Irish entrepreneurial assistant company,, after initially pricing and agreeing on a price of several thousands, a job that should have taken about 500 hours, ended up taking up months. Every element of the job was scrutinized, subject to redesigns, and changings to the spec sheet. While the firm was compensated handsomely, it took 19 months from initial contract to getting paid, getting hung up on the job ending up costing more time and resources than originally planned and pushed back several other projects.

If the job was not so aggressively priced then there wouldn't have been such an issue. My boss was a good salesman, and was able to squeeze every last drop from most companies. He may have been a good salesman, but he was a poor businessman, as we lost out on a huge amount of business from subsidiary sites and auxillary work.

I'll say this to you, ensure you can negotiate the deal well, all I've provided you with is the lowest price you should take for the job, as well as provide you with a ideas on how to maintain a flow a cash from the job once it's done. You can choose to charge much more, but make sure you leave yourself flexible enough that you arent going to price yourself beyond your ability.

If your figure of €1k+ includes hosting and any backend programming you're certainly on the right track. The key though is to make sure you know exactly what you are charging for everything, so when it comes around to raising the prices, you won't have to hide the books.

jjmax

Cheers Altheus,

Pardon the pun, but the advice you've given is priceless!
At the end of they day, besides getting dark, if your happy with the money you're getting and the clients happy to pay, and you can honestly say you're not ripping them off, then there's no problem.
There are a lot of people overcharging.
Likewise there are a lot of people undercharging.
I think both are equally big problems.

heggie

havnt read all the thread so excuse me if its already been said, sure you'll get people saying i could do that in x amount of hours, but could they do it 3 or 4 times in x amount of hours? clients are not gonna jump on the first thing you create and be satisfied. You need to allow for ALL the changes, reverts, changes, and more changes in your pricing.

The Corinthian

Altheus wrote:

I'm not sure where people are pulling their facts from.

I’m not certain where you are, TBH.

I charge considerably more than €7.65 an hour for designing a site, however I still charge within reason. Personally I have a portfolio, experience as well as excellent references from top-level staff at three major international brands. Sites I have worked on have cost upwards of €150,000 all in all, but my own personal work would cost a lot less.

Bully for you. Get in line.

If you look at the designers of that site, webtrade.ie. They've got a long list of awards, testimonials, respectable clients, as well as the resources to manage any job that gets thrown at them. My best guess price for Solicitor.net based on those fact, would somewhere in the region of €2,500 +

Double that figure.

For me it comes down to this, if you're starting out at design, keep the price low at the beginning and the standard of work high, steadily increasing the price from job-to-job, say 50 cent per hour per job. Word of mouth will spread, and before long you'll have a portfolio of work, and hopefully a steady stream of jobs. With some good luck and if you're good enough you'll soon be confidently charging upwards of €1500 per job, with a list of extremely happy clients and references.

Doesn’t work that way. Much of the work any freelancer or business gets is repeat business, and repeat business does not take kindly to increases of “50 cent per hour per job”.

He may have been a good salesman, but he was a poor businessman, as we lost out on a huge amount of business from subsidiary sites and auxillary work.

Speculative. Which returns us to the increases of “50 cent per hour per job” dilemma. He could have taken a hit on the original job in lieu of “ a huge amount of business from subsidiary sites and auxiliary work”, but this assumes that the follow up work would have been worth it. Of course this is also a speculative scenario, but one that I’ve seen many times in the past.

Between 2001 and 2003 there were a lot of WebDev firms essentially having fire sales, simply to keep afloat. Ultimately they were desperate for the cash flow, so as to meet their payroll commitments at the end of the month, but in the long term they were doomed to failure. Projects dragged on and firms were locked in contracts that meant were loosing them money, repeat business was inevitably also under priced too, and eventually, the firms went bust.

If your figure of €1k+ includes hosting and any backend programming you're certainly on the right track. The key though is to make sure you know exactly what you are charging for everything, so when it comes around to raising the prices, you won't have to hide the books.

Based upon your 65 hr estimate, even if you ignore hosting and any backend programming you’re still talking about a rate of €15 p.hr., which is pretty derisory for skilled work. And regardless of what you may think, it is still skilled work - even if the developer / designer is inexperienced, if they can do the job, then that implies that they are skilled, after all.

I’ll be honest, I don’t disagree with all you’re saying, but you wouldn’t make a living out of it. I’ve met way too many freelancers who enter the market with similar notions of value for money only to give up the ghost after a year because they’re earning less than they would in McDonalds.

And, given this, I’d have to question whether it is you rather than your boss who’s the poor businessman.

tomED

The Corinthian wrote:

Double that figure.

I can tell you for a fact - you can more than double it..... say no more....

jjmax

Going a little off-topic here.
But what do people think of that site - www.solicitor.net
I like it, nice and simple and leaves you in little doubt of what the site is for.
I'm not mad about the navigation bar colour, but my eyes are tired now.
And (shock horror) the text doesn't resize in IE!
Someone slipped there, but it does resize nicely in Firefox.
On that, how many are shocked it cost at least 5/6K (possibly lots more)?

mneylon

jjmax - put it in perspective.

If your website is one of your marketing tools then its cost should be relative to your overall spend on marketing etc., and this should all be taken in the context of how much it will actually earn you, or potentially lose you.

clearz

jjmax wrote:

Going a little off-topic here.
But what do people think of that site - www.solicitor.net
I like it, nice and simple and leaves you in little doubt of what the site is for.
I'm not mad about the navigation bar colour, but my eyes are tired now.
And (shock horror) the text doesn't resize in IE!
Someone slipped there, but it does resize nicely in Firefox.
On that, how many are shocked it cost at least 5/6K (possibly lots more)?

The blood red menu burns my retinas. I would tone that down a bit.
Javascript/image rollovers for menu when CSS/Text would have worked far better here.
The front page is nowhere near XHTML-Transitional complient (74 Errors)

Way to much Information under Tallaght court(I know this is hard to avoid ) on the front page. Just the headings as links would do here.