Luas and the Indo Sensationalist Rag

Transport21 Fan

Liam Lawlor anybody...

Four thousand separate faults found on Luas lines
SUnday Independant
MAEVE SHEEHAN

I]Exhibit A:[/IAN astonishing 4,000 faults have been identified on the Luas lines in Dublin in a "snag list" drawn up by the Rail Procurement Agency (RPA), the Sunday Independent can reveal.

The flaws - identified in two expert consultant reports in recent weeks - are on top of the €10m repairs to the faulty bonding material that helps keeps the tracks in place. The repairs on the extensive snag list were identified by Luas engineers after the contractors finished laying the tracks in 2004. I]Exhibit B:[/I While many problems have been fixed, the contractors are still working their way through the snag list more than a year and a half later.

They are a further headache for Luas bosses who contracted AMB Joint Ventures, to design a 50-year, low-maintenance system.

The RPA, which operates Luas, declined to elaborate on the nature of the repairs on the snag list or on the cost.

However, a spokesman said that they ranged I]Exhibit C:[/I from broken flagstones to loose screws at various points along the track. He said the contractors, AMB Joint Ventures, won't get paid until the work is done.

"I know the snag list has been whittled down significantly and it will keep going until it is sorted out," he said. "The vast majority of those were minor repairs."

I]Most Damning Evidence: [/IOlivia Mitchell, Fine Gael's spokesperson on Transport, said: "Four thousand seems like an awful lot of individual items.

"The important thing is that they are not repaired at a cost to the taxpayer and that they are completed before the contractor hands over the system to the RPA."

The €775m light-rail network has carried more than 22m passengers since it was launched in June 2004.

The polymer bonding that keeps the tracks on line had not set properly on about five per cent of the line. The contractors and the RPA each commissioned their own expert reports on the problem. The agency-commissioned study found that there could be excessive widening of the tracks in certain conditions. Both recommended remedial works but said there were no immediate safety concerns. Luas engineers had separately drawn up an extensive snag list outlining other flaws. The RPA insisted the repairs would be carried out at no cost to the taxpayer.

Work on repairing the tracks will start in April.

Maskhadov

The indo has turned into a rag. Most of the stuff they print is lies and muck. The standard of journalism is incredibly low.

A Dub in Glasgo

Anybody who has ever worked on infrastructure projects will know that snag lists are part and parcel of the job. Anybody who has ever worked on projects that are high profile and time constrained will know that loads of items get picked up during the snagging walkouts. Snagging items are exactly that... items that can be rectified/put in place without the need to stop the project becoming operational. The majority of these snag items will have been completed soon after the LUAS was commissioned

The article above is full of ignorant rubbish and is really in the Indo to get another stab at the track bonding issue.

MarkoP11

Fact is if the indo was so wrong they would get sued

It should be noted it was the Irish Times that broke the story presumably as a result of Frank McDonald's FoI requests

Snag lists are fine that the reality of any projects that minor details need to be looked at but in this case the primary track bonding solution has gone wrong, its a lot more than a snag its an endemic fault

A Dub in Glasgo

The track bonding issue is in addition to the 'snag' list highlighted in the article. The indo is running a story that a very large infrastructure project has a large snag list.... shock horror. The snags may well range from incomplete labelling, paint not fully done to cracked paving and screws loose. That is the basis of their article about the snag list, not the track bonding.

MrPudding

A Dub in Glasgo wrote:

The track bonding issue is in addition to the 'snag' list highlighted in the article. The indo is running a story that a very large infrastructure project has a large snag list.... shock horror. The snags may well range from incomplete labelling, paint not fully done to cracked paving and screws loose. That is the basis of their article about the snag list, not the track bonding.

Exactly. I'm sure there are some more serious issues but cracked paving stones and loose screws don't seem that bad. Of course some loose screws would be more important than others.

I have friends that have bought a new house, in the region of 100 square metres. They had a snag list with over 100 items. It was stuff like "living room, light switch not straight." When they say over 100 items you think damn, where did you get the builder? But when you look at the list it not that big a deal.

Apparently the bonding issue isn't that big a deal either. The last I heard there would be no track lifted. They were simply going to use additional clips to secure the track. This solution was suggested by the contractor and apparently endorsed by a couple of experts the RPA got in.

It should be noted I am not really a fan of the RPA. I am all for getting digs in at them but I think there is plenty of stuff to get at them about without trying to blow what seem to be small issues into something approaching the end of society as we know it.

MrP

Transport21 Fan

When the DART was built there was slab track in Dalkey which had to be replaced and then the DART extension to Greystone...they had terrible trouble with the overhead wires corroding from the salt air. This is part and parcel of major infrastructure projects. In the Tribune today there was a story about the Luas overhead wires are destroying blood at a bloodbank. But there was no basis, evidence or back-up to the sensationalist nature of the story...other than Luas trams pass next to the building were the blood is stored. What we have to go through in order to be a normal country...:mad: ...I really am starting to wonder if there is some behind the scenes vested interests who are stirring up this Luasphobia in the media. It has really gone past the point of being a joke and I really do think the RPA should be hiring private investigators at this point. The whole of T21 could be delayed or even canceled if this is not nipped in the bud and NO, I do not think that the RPA are incompetent at all. In fact I think they did an excellent job with the Luas.

eth0_

Eh, what's wrong with the article? I think it's scandalous they're not going to start fixing these issues until APRIL! Surely the bonding issue could cause an accident?

Only in Ireland would public safety be put on the long finger. Sure, three months, it'll be grand!

MrPudding

eth0_ wrote:

Eh, what's wrong with the article? I think it's scandalous they're not going to start fixing these issues until APRIL! Surely the bonding issue could cause an accident?

Only in Ireland would public safety be put on the long finger. Sure, three months, it'll be grand!

Well that's the point isn't it? Apparently it won't cause an accident. That is why it is being left until April. If it was dangerous now it would be addressed now. As far as I am aware there is no public safety issue. There is a problem with the bonding which may cause an issue in the future, ie years from now not weeks from now.

I am not a fan of the RPA but when it comes to technical issues with regards to a rail project I will put their opinion (and that of experts they bring in) above that of the Indo. In fact recently I would put opinion from just about anyone or anything above that of the Indo.

MrP

MarkoP11

eth0_ wrote:

Eh, what's wrong with the article? I think it's scandalous they're not going to start fixing these issues until APRIL! Surely the bonding issue could cause an accident?

Under certain realisable conditions, the real issue is a hot summer could cause serious problems as the rails will expand and all these loose sleeper blocks will allow the rail to buckle as there will be nothing holding them in place

eth0_ wrote:

Only in Ireland would public safety be put on the long finger. Sure, three months, it'll be grand!

The UK tried it and learned the hard way at Hatfield

Without the safety reports it is hard to say how bad things are, what have the RPA got to hide, IE and the DoT released all the IE safety audits warts and all to the public as soon as they where completed. Its time for a bit of transparency from the RPA

Propellerhead

Transport21 Fan wrote:

In the Tribune today there was a story about the Luas overhead wires are destroying blood at a bloodbank. But there was no basis, evidence or back-up to the sensationalist nature of the story...other than Luas trams pass next to the building were the blood is stored. What we have to go through in order to be a normal country...:mad: ...I really am starting to wonder if there is some behind the scenes vested interests who are stirring up this Luasphobia in the media.

Right. Time to boycott Independent Newspapers and the Tribune so. As someone who is sick of having to fight tooth and nail for decent transport infrastructure then hit these bastards where it hurts, in the pocket.

Don't accept the Herald AM at your railway station.
Don't buy the Herald, the Indo, the Sindo or the Tribune.

Throughout the whole of the development of Luas unnamed "experts" were cited by one writer in the Tribunes as suggesting that Dublin was unsuitable for rail development. It turns out that at least one of the "experts" cited is a notorious US anti-rail campaigner who is apparently funded by the concrete and motor industry.

It boils back to "he who pays the piper calls the tune". As long as significant chunks of our industry believe that they will make more money from road building to service low density sprawl housing than from high density development and rail based commuter transport then this kind of messing from parts of the media will continue.

Oh, by the way, boycott Independent Newspapers and their spare wheel the Sunday Tribune.

MarkoP11

The blood bank are quite right to implement procedures in St James to monitor the effects of the presence of Luas. The Luas trams are state of the art IGBT inverter drive technology which is well known for interference. I have first hand experience of what IGBT drive train can do to sensitive equipment and it does have an effect. Its not the blood it the sensitive equipment in the lab they are most concerned about

Its open season for Luas the honeymoon is over and there is lot more mud to throw, just wait till we get down to serious issues such as overcrowding and walking pace speeds

Transport21 Fan

Shane Coleman's articles in the Turbine are generally among the best researched and most positive in terms of rail transport issues. His review of Transport 21 was one of the best articles on rail in Ireland I have ever come across. So I can't fault the Turbine completely. Compare him to the eejits in the Indo who resecently reported verbatim a bogus story on an undersea tunnel between Wales and Rosslare as if the diggers were going to start work in the morning and who still thinks the DART Interconnector connects Connolly to Heuston even after people correcting them for over a year now. I am not a fan of boycotting papers as it only gives reason for more fuel to their fire and you have to respect free speech no matter what, but the Indo was once a good paper and now it is not fit to line the budgie cage with. What is going on with the Luas in the media at the moment is seriously freaky even by the standards of this banana republic. There is a vendetta and some vested interest in behind it and is feeding all these crazy stories. From where I am standing, the only crime Luas has commited is that it has been TOO successful.

Transport21 Fan

Its open season for Luas the honeymoon is over and there is lot more mud to throw, just wait till we get down to serious issues such as overcrowding and walking pace speeds

You're in danger of becoming a parody of yourself. I picture you typing these anti-RPA posts dressed like a Talliban Mullah with a DART badge on your turban and screaming "death to the infidel Luas and Metro!!!" as you wave your fist.

They can always buy new trams and congestion issue solved. The DARTs speed advatage over Luas is nullified when it stops for no reason between stations for long periods of time during the height of rush hour.

Learn to love the Luas...Hug a Metro etc.

Suaimhneach

Luas Cost cost 750m, [best number/fact I could find online], and already it's needing a major rehaul... Seems a bit much imo. Typical irishness...

http://breakingnews.ie/2006/01/16/story239828.html

New study says major work is needed to fix LUAS problems
16/01/2006 - 08:03:24

Further research into problems with Dublin's LUAS tracks has reportedly found that extensive repairs are needed to ensure the long-term safety of the tram system.

Reports this morning said the study was commissioned by the company that built the tracks after problems emerged with the bonding material beneath the tracks.

Other studies uncovered by the media have already revealed that this material is beginning to crack and will need to be repaired in the coming years.

The Railway Procurement Agency has been playing down the problem, saying the construction company will have to bear the full cost and the repairs will not cause major disruption for LUAS users.

However, this morning's reports said the latest study warns that simple track fastenings will not be enough to rectify the situation and new concrete supports will have to be manufactured to a very high standard.

Red Alert

maybe they can add that crap Vehicle Computer system (and i'm doing electronics so i know crap when i see it) made by some goons called "Project Automation" to their snag list. some times on the green line you get the Next Stop display, sometimes not. that voice is quite unpleasant too, could we not have found an irish person to read it instead of phonetically spelling out the irish for someone in the UK to read?

there's also severe problems with the signalling in Harcourt street, the induction loops are far too near the traffic lights with the result that the tram has to slow down twice in order to get a phase-request in.

dr zoidberg

Last week (i.e. the 8th jan.) the Sindo was claiming the Luas was a "train set that no one wanted" - 20 million journeys suggests otherwise

Metrobest

Actually 22M at the last count, I read recently!

As far as track repairs go, the RPA seems to be fairly certain that the repairs won't be disruptive. Track repairs on the Amsterdam tram lines are a frequent occurance without service disruption. I've seen track being bonded and welded into the street while trams travel (slowly) through the relevent section. It's not a big deal. The local newspapers don't go into a big hoopla about it. The work is needed; it gets done; life goes on.

There is a curious, negative attitude to luas in the Irish media. People from all of Europe are coming to Dublin to look at luas and hailing it as a style icon. European transport planners are desperate to re-create similar systems in their cities. The ordinary Dubliner likes the luas and is delighted with the service; proximity to a luas has become a status symbol and is the buzz word in the property market. Company directors have stopped driving their mercedes to work. Traffic volumes at Ranelagh bridge are 13 % lower since luas.

22M journeys in one year, more than the heavily-subsidised DART. And it turns out the luas won't even need a subsidy this year. It's all fantastic news. Who, honestly, would have thought luas would be such a success when reading all the anti-luas garbage published in the media prior to 2004? The media should put its hands in the air, where we can all see them, and admit it got the story wrong.

The media should now be chasing down on Transport 21, demanding progress reports on the metro's delivery and making the case for even more metro lines. The media should be putting forward a positive vision for 21st century Irish transport. Why isn't it? The problem might be that the Irish media is a very small pond - big fish like Frank McDonald can exert undue influence on public opinion.

Frank McDonald, undoubtedly for sincerely-held reasons, is anti metro. The man seems bent on an destroying Transport 21's finest project: the North/South metro from Swords to Stephen's Green. That won't trouble his paymasters in The Irish Times who make huge revenue out of advertising and property. But all this focus on costs is symptomatic of the broader malaise. We cannot afford to do without such a metro and a proper transport system; and we must not allow ourselves to be fooled into believing the media has our best interests at heart when it uses its power to rail against spending money on metros. Where was the media when billions were being pumped into the roads?

Transport21 Fan

If you look into the background of most of the journalists in Irish media they are nearly all farmers* sons and daughters with no understanding of city living. They cannot grasp that living in an urban area has a whole differnet (but no less honourable) dynamic than being on a farm in rural Mayo. They confuse the urban dynamic and lifestyle as being a bad thing and Luas is part of their myopia. Anything which enhances city living to these CAP-raised hacks is a waste of taxpayers money, because all aspects city life is to them a bad thing to them and should not be encouraged. I would say that the majority of civil servants also share this same culture and see life in cities and towns as being abnormal and this is reflected in most of the Government's policy in this state since Dev came to power and issued a fatwah against urban Ireland with Dublin representing the epicentre of danger against his "fair madiens dancing barefoot at the crossroads". Presumably because cities and towns tend to have shops which sell women's shoes...tut tut.

*I said "farmers" who are a tiny minority (but have incredible power and influence thanks to Dev legacy) and not Irish people from outside Dublin who have more in common with Jackeens than any of us realise, except groups like the IFA don't want them to find this fact out.

People living in most of Ireland have more or less the same lifestyle and way of life as people in Dublin, but to read the provincial media you would think there is nothing but farmers from Mallina Head to Cape Clear and via rags such as the Indo this "Farming Mindset" is reflected in the national media "Dem new fangled Luas yokes would be useless at schpreding the schulry boyo!.

Perhaps if the RPA have a stand at the next National Ploughing Championships for the "poor farmers" in between the Overseas Property Dealers and the 'Gin Palace' stands, the Indo journalists might develop a tolerance for Luas.

Welcome to Parlon Country...indeed.

spacetweek

Red Alert wrote:

maybe they can add that crap Vehicle Computer system <snip> some times on the green line you get the Next Stop display, sometimes not.

Huh? I use it every day and I've never once seen an error or omission on the displays. I find them very reliable.

Red Alert wrote:

that voice is quite unpleasant too, could we not have found an irish person to read it instead of phonetically spelling out the irish for someone in the UK to read?

Huh???? I'm pretty sure she's Irish! A D4 type, but definitely Irish. And she prolly reads out the irish stop names s-l-o-w-l-y because, like most Irish people, she doesn't speak Irish and can't pronounce it properly.

Victor

I wonder how many errors one could find in the average Indo. :v:

magpie

People from all of Europe are coming to Dublin to look at luas and hailing it as a style icon.

Gosh! really?

The ordinary Dubliner likes the luas and is delighted with the service

Hmm, starting to sound like Independent-style journalism. i.e. sweeping statements with nothing to back them up

proximity to a luas has become a status symbol and is the buzz word in the property market

Really? the status symbol bit is a bit dubious, and as for property buzzword Estate Agents regularly run adverts with a picture of St Stephen's green instead of the manky cardboard apartment in Tallaght they are selling with the byline "just 30 mins from St Stephen's Green", because they are devious bastards. Not because the Luas is deadly.

Company directors have stopped driving their mercedes to work.

All the ones who live in Ranelagh and work in Sandyford then. Is that 3 or 4?

Traffic volumes at Ranelagh bridge are 13 % lower since luas

Wow, an identifiable statistic. Gathered by whom?

It seems there are 2 camps on the Luas issue:

1) People who are fundamentally opposed to it as it overran on time and budget enormously and apparently wasn't even done correctly when it was finished (bit like Dublin Port tunnel), and who don't see the benefit in spending €750 million of their tax money on a tram to the 'burbs.

2) People who are generally "up with trams" and refuse to be gainsayed by discussions on cost or usefulness.

I've used the Luas once to go from Heuston to Jervis Street. It took 30 mins including waiting around time and I had to stand in a jammed, slowly moving carriage. Now I just walk it. Good old Irish Public Transport.

dr zoidberg

magpie wrote:

The ordinary Dubliner likes the luas and is delighted with the service

Hmm, starting to sound like Independent-style journalism. i.e. sweeping statements with nothing to back them up

There were 22 million journeys on the Luas last year, 2 million more than expected - to me it seems that a fair few people do like it.

magpie wrote:

the status symbol bit is a bit dubious, and as for property buzzword Estate Agents regularly run adverts with a picture of St Stephen's green instead of the manky cardboard apartment in Tallaght they are selling with the byline "just 30 mins from St Stephen's Green", because they are devious bastards. Not because the Luas is deadly.

They may be devious bastards but the fact that they are using advertising which associates their properties with the Luas shows that it is considered a status symbol. Dublin Bus is hardly ever mentioned in these ads and then not in the same way.

magpie wrote:

Company directors have stopped driving their mercedes to work.

All the ones who live in Ranelagh and work in Sandyford then. Is that 3 or 4?

Yes because everyone knows that every company in Ireland is based in Sandyford :rolleyes:

magpie wrote:

Wow, an identifiable statistic. Gathered by whom?

I would presume it is on the DTO website.

magpie wrote:

People who are fundamentally opposed to it as it overran on time and budget enormously and apparently wasn't even done correctly when it was finished (bit like Dublin Port tunnel), and who don't see the benefit in spending €750 million of their tax money on a tram to the 'burbs.

The benefit of building trams is that they encourage people to use public transport, much more so than a standard rail line or bus service. Yes the cost overran but that does not detract from the fact that the Luas is a quality service. The flaws with the Luas track are not that serious either, services are still running, they would not be if there was a serious danger. They shouldn't have happened but again, they have no bearing on the service itself.

magpie wrote:

I've used the Luas once

Do you usually make up your mind after one experience?

magpie

There were 22 million journeys on the Luas last year, 2 million more than expected - to me it seems that a fair few people do like it.

There's a difference between "using" and "liking". I use the bus regularly, but I despise it every time. 800,000 people use trains and buses every day (http://www.cie.ie/about_us/chairmans_statement.asp#investment) but I sincerely doubt this is an expression of how much they like trains or buses.

They may be devious bastards but the fact that they are using advertising which associates their properties with the Luas shows that it is considered a status symbol. Dublin Bus is hardly ever mentioned in these ads and then not in the same way.

You've got a point, odd as it might seem for proximity to a tram stop to be a status symbol. The Dutch must be delighted with their new status.

Yes because everyone knows that every company in Ireland is based in Sandyford

Well, the choice is Sandyford or Tallaght right? I doubt many company directors have ditched the S Class in order to have their noses pressed up against the glass of a tram window, but I'm willing to be persuaded by reliable statistics.

I would presume it is on the DTO website.

I dunno, is it?

Yes the cost overran but that does not detract from the fact that the Luas is a quality service. The flaws with the Luas track are not that serious either, services are still running, they would not be if there was a serious danger. They shouldn't have happened but again, they have no bearing on the service itself.

Hmm, so if you bought a car for €30,000 that ended up actually costing you €65000 (oh sorry, we made some mistakes working out the price), if it was still a good car you wouldn't be disgruntled?

Do you usually make up your mind after one experience?

Usually, if that experience is a bad one.

dr zoidberg

magpie wrote:

There's a difference between "using" and "liking". I use the bus regularly, but I despise it every time. 800,000 people use trains and buses every day (http://www.cie.ie/about_us/chairmans_statement.asp#investment) but I sincerely doubt this is an expression of how much they like trains or buses.

True but in the case of the Luas there were already bus routes in place which lost passengers to the trams. If the Luas wasn't liked people wouldn't have bothered with it. Of course not everyone will like it, and it's near impossible to find a decently-controlled survey. But when passenger numbers exceed expectations it does say something, especially when other public transport which was already in place suffers as a result. It indicates a clear preference for Luas, at least.

magpie wrote:

Well, the choice is Sandyford or Tallaght right? I doubt many company directors have ditched the S Class in order to have their noses pressed up against the glass of a tram window, but I'm willing to be persuaded by reliable statistics.

You seem to be forgetting that the lines travel to the city centre as well as from it. And there is a large number of stops in south Dublin. Very hard to prove the statement about company directors though.

magpie wrote:

I dunno, is it?

Can't find it myself Maybe the original poster could give a link.

magpie wrote:

Hmm, so if you bought a car for €30,000 that ended up actually costing you €65000 (oh sorry, we made some mistakes working out the price), if it was still a good car you wouldn't be disgruntled?

Not really a fair comparison, cars are fixed in price, and aren't subject to labour costs, costs due to delays in planning applications, difficulty in estimating the cost of land acquisition etc.. Infrastructural projects nearly always have budget overruns in this country, the Luas is no exception to that. Not that it's right, but it's the fault of the government. But still, it should not be a question of cost but of value for money. I believe the Luas delivers that.

magpie wrote:

Usually, if that experience is a bad one.

Not very wise. You asked for decent statistics earlier, yet you're willing to take one experience as enough to form an opinion. Statistics are all about compensating for "outliers", one-off instances that contradict the general pattern. You should give things a chance, your experience could have been a once off and is statistically non-significant.

Metrobest

I want to deal with Magpie's points. First about international perceptions of luas.

There is international acclaim for Luas. Pictures of the tram feature in the travel section of the Dutch newspapers whenever Dublin is the city being written about. On the internet, bloggers and tourists rave about the comfort and speed of luas, helpfully explaining that luas means 'speed' as Gaeilge. The Green line is described as a "sneltram" on sites such as this one:
http://homepage.eircom.net/~tulips/nl/luas-lijnen.htm
...which in the Dutch context means metro similar to the line 51 in Amsterdam.

European parliament reports, such as this one
http://europa.eu.int/comm/regional_policy/sources/docgener/panorama/pdf/mag16/mag16_nl.pdf
praise luas as a "hypermodern" system that has given deprived neighbourhoods previously hampered by poor public transport connections a fast and direct link into the city. The report also notes that luas brings commercial benefits along its route, stimulates housing density and revitalises neglected neighbourhoods. And it says that of the 775 million euro invested in luas, 80 million has come from EU funds.

Ordinary Dubliners do like luas. You don't need to do a survey to work that one out. Just ask people getting on board at Stephen's Green "Would you rather be on a bus or in your car?" They'll tell you they actually like using the luas. Company directors do use luas. Willie O'Reilly, chief of Today FM, takes the Green line every day. I know anecdotally of several other top business people in Ireland leaving their cars at home and getting the luas. And if you look at the clientele on board a peaktime luas, you'll see the types of people who'll just never get on a Dublin Bus, but will get a tram when it's a consistently high-frequency and fast service.

I've been searching for a link to the 13% figure I gave about Charlemont bridge. It may not be online: I will keep looking. It's a true figure and I first heard it last year, before the true impact of Luas had been realised. With 22M passengers using the luas, more than the DART, I can only imagine imporvements in that regard.

The DTO 2005 Road User report
http://www.dto.ie/rumr.pdf
has figures on vehicular movements over the canal cordon in 2004 compared with 2003 and it points out that "The routes with the largest decreases in general traffic flows were South Circular Road, Herberton Road and St. John’s Road West, where general traffic volumes decreased by 32%, 29% and 23% respectively. These reductions in general traffic flows are perhaps attributable to the introduction of Luas. Changes by crossing point are illustrated in Figure 3.12."

(Also: "The November 2004 Canal cordon count survey, undertaken by Dublin Bus, counted 62,345 inbound bus passengers crossing the Canal between 07:00 and 10:00hrs representing a fall of 5,447 bus passengers, or 8.7% on the November 2003 values." Bad Dublin Bus management, or is the luas pinching passengers?)

I agree with one point of Magpie's - that the Red Line between Heuston and Connolly is not operationally effective and it never will be. That was planning failure which occurred before the RPA was set up. Dealt a bad hand, the RPA made the best it could from what is a clearly unsuitable section of track.

steve-o

Metrobest wrote:

... routes with the largest decreases in general traffic flows were South Circular Road ... decreased by 32% ...

Yep, I agree the reduced traffic flows on SCR can be attributed to Luas, but not because people have switched to the tram. It's more likely to be because roadspace was throttled around Harcourt Street and traffic is at a standstill in rush hour. Maybe a few people have switched to buses as a result, but not Luas.

MarkoP11

Metrobest wrote:

I agree with one point of Magpie's - that the Red Line between Heuston and Connolly is not operationally effective and it never will be. That was planning failure which occurred before the RPA was set up. Dealt a bad hand, the RPA made the best it could from what is a clearly unsuitable section of track.

The original plan was in fact a tunnel from Heuston to the East Wall and that a DART would climb the Kingswood Hill they even did up flyers for it, the government killed that in 1987 as did any hope of Tallaght getting a direct fast link to the city, thus plan B

The traffic light sequencing on the red line is still rubbish and it is a fixable issue. If you want to do Heuston city get the bus, its faster on many occasions and gets you to Dame Street (91/92) and the fare is €1.10 30¢ less than the tram oh and you are almost certain to get a seat

Luas just doesn't move enough to make a really really serious impact, the fact it shares roadspace kind of negates a lot of the traffic reductions it brings, its not a good argument but its something to consider. The ratio of peak to off peak on Luas is quite interesting, it may be 80k a day but its more spread out than say the heavy rail which abides by the more typical 4 to 1 ratio wqhere huge numbers (25-30k per hour) are moved then it goes all quiet

markpb

MarkoP11 wrote:

The ratio of peak to off peak on Luas is quite interesting, it may be 80k a day but its more spread out than say the heavy rail which abides by the more typical 4 to 1 ratio wqhere huge numbers (25-30k per hour) are moved then it goes all quiet

From my experience, buses (7 & 45 from Ballsbridge) were better than the Dart in the middle of the day. I could turn up and reasonably expect a bus in the next few minutes, a factor the Luas also has. Dart, on the other hand, had unpredictable and irritating gaps between trains that meant I had to consult a timetable before undertaking a 10 minute trip.

To a lesser extent, buses without traffic problems, was about the same speed as the train.

luckat

Of course Irish people love the Luas.

But that doesn't mean that a newspaper shouldn't run a story highlighting safety issues if they're brought to its attention!

Maybe it's perfectly safe to send trams full of people rattling along tracks with screws loose and paving stones jutting out. At the same time, if a person qualified in the field who's worried about safety goes to a journalist with a story like this, the journalist would be completely irresponsible not to write the story.

NavanJunction1

spacetweek wrote:

And she prolly reads out the irish stop names s-l-o-w-l-y because, like most Irish people, she doesn't speak Irish and can't pronounce it properly.

She is from Donegal, and a native Irish speaker.

Metrobest

luckat wrote:

Of course Irish people love the Luas.

But that doesn't mean that a newspaper shouldn't run a story highlighting safety issues if they're brought to its attention!

Maybe it's perfectly safe to send trams full of people rattling along tracks with screws loose and paving stones jutting out. At the same time, if a person qualified in the field who's worried about safety goes to a journalist with a story like this, the journalist would be completely irresponsible not to write the story.

The Indo has disgraced itself with its luas coverage from the moment the first section of track was laid. It has stoked public fear needlessly, misled the public about the "faults", and twisted the story to fit a particular agenda.

It is a complete abrogation of journalistic responsibility.

Transport21 Fan

Metrobest wrote:

The Indo has disgraced itself with its luas coverage from the moment the first section of track was laid. It has stoked public fear needlessly, misled the public about the "faults", and twisted the story to fit a particular agenda.

It is a complete abrogation of journalistic responsibility.

I don't think I will ever forget this bizzare episode as long as I live. It was a calculated and vicious war waged upon a highly sucessful rail based public transport system which dispite only being in its most basic form, has already demonstrated collosal passenger carrying capacity, with staggering potential into the future. I sat there day after day reading this mad anti-Luas diatribe from the Indo with my jaw hanging open at times. Jesus christ, you would think that the Luas and the RPA were responsible for 9/11, Foot and Mouth and well as Ireland's failure to qualify for the world cup by the tone of the articles.

The Indo is a anti-Dublin provincial newspaper based in Dublin with a pro-Farming/Rural agenda. Most of its writers and staff have been brought up from rags down the country and they are by their very nature hostile to any infrastruture spending in Dublin as it is a waste to them. They have no problem with Iranroad Eireann as it takes them home on the weekend for mass with the mammy in Mayo. The Luas on the other hand is dammed simply because it only serves Dublin and therefore is a waste of money and must be stopped in it's tracks.

Tracy Hogan has no problem going after the Luas and the 22 million Dubliners who use it a year, but celebrates the Western Rail Corridor in the pages of that rag. Didn't he print verbatim a spoof story about the Tuskar Tunnel recently? I guess he could not contain himself when he realised that none of spoof project would be located in Dublin.

The Daily Mail is currently on sale at 30c. There is simply no reason for people to buy the Indo anymore.

Propellerhead

Agreed. Independent Newspapers have some neck touting copies of the Herald AM at Heuston and St. Stephen's Green when they have constantly bashed Luas from its inception.

Transport21 Fan

Propellerhead wrote:

Agreed. Independent Newspapers have some neck touting copies of the Herald AM at Heuston and St. Stephen's Green when they have constantly bashed Luas from its inception.

"Bashed" would be putting it midly.

The Herald is also running special promotions with CIE regarding the DART...makes you wonder dosen't it...

Transport21 Fan

"the little toy train which nobody wanted" - Indo

Have you ever seen a public transport system get as much public involvement and one which Irish people wanted to be a part of as much as Luas?

Regardless of the vicious and sensationalist attacks in the Indo and Sunday Business Post...so much for "the Honeymoon being over"...22 million passengers a year and climbing and the two lines not even linked yet or operating near or close to capacity.

An incredible success for rail transport in Ireland. Can you only imagine the passenger numbers when the T21 Luas lines are completed and the 40 meter trams are allocated to all serivices. Simply staggering for a recently opened tram system in a city with a large non-public transport using culture.

Well done Connex and the RPA - you have brought back a little of the spirit and professionalism which made the Dublin United Tramway one of the world's greatest public transport networks. Onwards and upwards.

Hundreds of views received on proposed LUAS link-up
15/02/2006 - 12:24:09

Hundreds of people have submitted their views on how the two Luas lines in Dublin should be linked, according to the Railway Procurement Agency.

The RPA has drawn up five possible routes for a planned link-up track between the two tram lines in the city.

The proposed routes have been on display at the offices of Dublin City Council for a number of months. Today is the last day on which members of the public can submit their preferred option.

The RPA said today that it hoped to make a final decision on which option to choose before the end of next month.

Andrew Duffy

http://www.unison.ie/irish_independent/stories.php3?ca=9&si=1566306&issue_id=13707

Metro work to begin in April

Chaos feared as new city Luas link gets green light as well

Treacy Hogan

Environment Correspondent

DIGGING work on the controversial €1.5bn Metro line from Dublin city to the airport gets under way in April, it was revealed yesterday.

The fact that the initial exploratory work begins so soon will come as a surprise to commuters and businesses.

Already serious concerns have been raised over the impact of the digging and tunnelling works on traffic.

We will have to put up with digging for the Metro - to be completed by 2015 - and for a new link between the two unconnected Luas lines in the city centre.

Both rail systems will be totally separate but will run along exactly the same route as far as O'Connell Street, the Metro running underground, the Luas link running overground.

The Metro route from the city centre to Swords via Dublin Airport is being officially unveiled by the Government next week following a briefing to the Cabinet by Transport Minister Martin Cullen, yesterday.

The Metro is expected to go from St Stephen's Green, Westmoreland Street, O'Connell Street, Dorset Street, Griffith Avenue, Glasnevin and Dublin City University (DCU), Ballymun, Dublin Airport, and on to Swords. Travel time to the airport is estimated at 17 minutes.

Link

Separately, a €100m Luas line linking the two unconnected lines from Tallaght and Sandyford will also go from St Stephen's Green, Westmoreland Street, and O'Connell Street.

Work on this project is due to get under way later this year and the link is due to be finished by 2009. This is the route which emerged as the most popular with the public during consultations on possible routes.

Following a Cabinet meeting Mr Cullen announced that the route for the Metro will be unveiled next week and the public invited to air their views.

Geophysical digging is due to start on the Metro project in April.

Mr Cullen said yesterday: "These developments represent significant staging posts on the delivery of one of Transport 21's key projects, Metro North.

"We are now ready to start the physical groundwork on building the Metro service, running from St Stephen's Green via the airport to Swords," the minister added.

A Department of Transport spokesperson said yesterday that the geotechnical work would not cause any traffic disruptions.

Meanwhile, plans for a new Luas line to Dublin's booming Citywest area are being unveiled tomorrow.

As recently revealed by the Irish Independent, the 3.2km tram service spur off the Tallaght line is expected to cost up to €100m.

Much of the cost is being met by two developers, Davy Hickey Properties and Harcourt Properties in a public-private partnership.

Boom

The line will run from Belgard to Citywest and will cater for the commercial district there as well as an expected housing boom and is due to open in 2009.

The cost of building new Luas lines is currently running at €30m per kilometre. A public inquiry into the extension of the Sandyford line to Cherrywood in south Dublin is being heard next Monday. This line is scheduled to open in 2010.

Luas is now carrying over 70,000 passengers a day. Mr Cullen will launch the public consultation on the proposed Citywest Luas link at South Dublin County Council's offices in Tallaght tomorrow.

Hagar

If the bonding is faulty on only 5% of the tracks that amounts to more than 1.15 km linear on a 23 km total project. Given that each km of track is actually 4 parallel tracks they have laid 4.6 km of track below spec.

Not to be sneezed at by any means, not to be easily explained away either.

Metrobest

Lock up your doors folks, test digging for the metro... BE AFRAID!!!
This is typical Irish Independent scaremongering.

And what's this buried at the bottom of the article? "A Department of Transport spokesperson said yesterday that the geotechnical work would not cause any traffic disruptions."

Oh.

So who exactly "fears" the choas? Or is beardy Hogan trying to create a fear where none exists? I think that businesses in Dublin city have felt the benefit of the luas and they'll be willing to put up with disruption caused by metro construction knowing the benefits the project will bring.

Methinks Treacy Hogan rubbing his hands with glee at the prospect of test digging, hoping it will cause maximum inconveinience to the general public so that he can churn out more of his increasingly deranged non-stories.

Transport21 Fan

I have been finally convinced that the Indo has to be subject to a boycott by people who support more investment in truly world class rail based public transport.

Seriously, what does Tracy 'Tuskar Tunnel and Western Rail Corridor' Hogan expect, that the entire Metro and Luas aspects of T21 be scrapped because it personally bothers him? It is beyond belief really how these arsewits think. Look at the line which begins with "we" - there are no quatations - this bearded gob****e is talking for the rest of us as if he is echoing the voice of the people. Does this guy work for the motoring lobby by any chance?

This story is behind the headlines is a dream come true for people who want to see Dublin with a world class rail-based public transport system and here we have in the space of a week two new light rail lines and a historic metro to Swords (the first town in Ireland get a modern rail service which never had a rail connection before) and how does the Indo Rag present the story...like it is a holocaust of Bird Flu, Michael Flatley and Al Queada hitting Dublin at the same time.

Boycott the Indo NOW!

Victor

Hagar wrote:

If the bonding is faulty on only 5% of the tracks that amounts to more than 1.15 km linear on a 23 km total project. Given that each km of track is actually 4 parallel tracks they have laid 4.6 km of track below spec.

2 rails + sleepers + bed = 1 track

1 or more tracks togehter = 1 line

gobdaw

Transport21 Fan wrote:

...like it is a holocaust of Bird Flu, Michael Flatley and Al Queada hitting Dublin at the same time.

Boycott the Indo NOW!

I don't see how your views on LUAS or other matters are advanced by your gratuitous use of the immage of Jesus as your footer, with the slogan "Jesus takes the Metro".

Would you feel at liberty to use an image of Mohammad as freely? Would Boards.ie administrators tolerate the pointless disrespect?

Grow up and post adult contributions.

Hagar

I do grasp that concept Victor but it's not what I'm aiming at.

The point I'm making is that if 5% of the rails have a bonding issue it may mean that much more than 5% of a return journey may be on problem track.

"Un-safe Option1" If the 5% flaw is evenly distributed across the total length of the 4 individual rails used in a return journey then a tram may be on a single faulty rail for 20% of the time.

"Un-safe Option2" It is unlikely that the flaws are totally evenly spread out, therefore the tram may be travelling on 2 faulty rails at the same time for some of the journey.

I'm sure it is more of an issue if this bonding failure is on a sharp bend, such as at Hueston Bridge.

It's hard to know which is the safer "un-safe option" of the two.:(

Transport21 Fan

gobdaw wrote:

Would you feel at liberty to use an image of Mohammad as freely?

Kinda ironic that you asking the moderators to censor my jesus picture and then you yourself take a biggoted little underhand swipe at moslems - when your own mindset is no different than the minority of wackos who are buring Danish flags while claiming to represent all of islam.

You don't speak for Jesus anymore than I do, me oul china.

Only Catholics and Greek orthodox practice iconography. There are no images of Mohammad to use as just like in Palestine 33 BC, there were no cameras to take picture of Jesus either.

When you can prove that is an actual picture of Jesus then you might have a point. Ireland is a secular republic - get used to it.

John_C

Hagar wrote:

It's hard to know which is the safer "un-safe option" of the two.:(

Hagar,
I think you have a very liberal use of the word "un-safe".

Transport21 Fan

If you want to talk about unsafe rails, then let's talk about IE's OnTrack 2000. A cosmetic upgrade so superficial that the 2002 Strategic Rail Review slammed it and even had photos of newly upgraded track base washed away by rain. A photo of brand new continous welded rail and concrete sleepers dangling in mid air. Compared to that, the Luas bonding issue is nothing.

Irish Rail's OnTrack2000 was just new rail and sleepers on the same old victorian embankments with a bit of weedspray at the sides and this is why Irish Rail trains are now run at slower speeds than before they were "upgraded".

When the Luas was built not only did Dublin city center get a light rail system the envy of the world, but the utilites under the track were moved and upgraded into the bargin. Lots of mistakes of the past were corrected by the RPA. Telecoms, gas mains, electrical lines and sewars were moved and remapped and improved.

CIE/IE did not give a damn about a future Navan rail link, that the old boys network in the CIE board room did not even bother to object to Meath CoCo running a pipe along the trackbed of the Clonsilla-Navan line. Compare that to the RPA and the Clare N roads houses issue.

That's how much them CIE old boys network want to tap into new rail markets. They are far too busy being players in the property game to bother with cultivating new commuter rail transport links.

Fact is, when it comes to rail transport professionalism, the RPA leave CIE old boys network in the starting gate.

MarkoP11

You will find if you bothered to did any research that it was Meath CC that didn't tell CIE about the pipe, they didn't ask the rail safety commission either. I bothered to find out who owns the land in question and it ain't CIE and indeed I understand CIE never owned the land even when it was a railway. As such if you don't own the land, have no legal right of objection, no right to be consulted and are not told, short of having a team of undercover agents dug in on every lifted railway how on earth can you blame CIE when Meath CC are the guilty party they laid the pipe then lied about it, compromised the aims of there development plan and only now have admitted that it is an obstruction, why because they where exposed.

The RPA are a shower of wasters, most of them are ex CIE, they so far have delivered nothing on time (Luas, integrated ticketing) or even close to budget. The Green Luas was shutdown for several hours last Friday and again on Monday due to the failure of a single tram, it took them 6 hours to sort it out, thats incompetence

The RPA have refused to publish the safety reports on the Luas track despite having a legal obligation to publish regular reports into the safety of light rail and metro systems. They have refused requests to discuss the issue face to face despite offering such. IE on the other hand have released 4 safety audit reports (Oct 1998, March 2000, April 2001 and July 2001)

Just wait till the RPA announce there will be level crossings on the metro, not joking I've been told straight to the face by senior RPA people there will be level crossings and they seem happy with that

Transport21 Fan

MarkoP11, I admit, I am a simple man and I tend to look at issues with my simple mind and when I compare the RPA moving and relocating utilities to make their railway lines more sound, to CIE/IE allowing ESAT to plough fibre optic cables into their ballast compromising the structural integrity of the rail lines, then I tend to assume that the RPA care just that little bit more about good rail quality rail lines.

The RPA/Luas/Metro are here to stay - deal with it.

gobdaw

Transport21 Fan wrote:

Kinda ironic that you asking the moderators to censor my jesus picture and then you yourself take a biggoted little underhand swipe at moslems - when your own mindset is no different than the minority of wackos who are buring Danish flags while claiming to represent all of islam.

Where am I asking the moderators any such thing? I asked you two simple questions but you have answered neither, satisfied instead to use labels on my posting like “bigoted”, “underhand” and “wacko”.

You seem hung up on icons. Would you not be better deploring the wackos whose actions have directly lead to the deaths of how many demonstrators (is it 20,30 worldwide?), rather than discussing burning Danish flags. Notice no mention here, or indeed in my original post, of Muslims, bigoted or otherwise. Or of any religion.

Transport21 Fan wrote:

When you can prove that is an actual picture of Jesus then you might have a point. Ireland is a secular republic - get used to it.

You yourself refer to it as “my Jesus picture”. Anyone seeing it would know who to image is intended to represent. Everyone knows it is not an identikit image. Your original caption “Jesus takes the Metro” drives home the connection. I see you have since my posting edited the caption, removing the direct reference to Jesus… to improve your Jesuitical argument?

More to the point, how do you see the use of that footer advancing in any way your views on Transport21? (That is a question!). If there is no point, and it is offensive to others, then it is gratuitously offensive.

You glory, as I do, that Ireland is a secular republic, yet you feel the need to use religious imagery. I don't get it.

I reiterate, speaking for myself, I find the inappropriate use of imagery of any religion can be offensive. Your use of a Jesus image in this context is offensive to me.

I also believe that that fact will not cause you a momentary tinge of regret.

Transport21 Fan

I think Victor should set up a poll to see if people want my Jesus sig to stay or go. The image gives me great strenght to fight for my Eastern Fish Corridor.

Let the people decide, not the Message Board Mullahs I say!

gobdaw wrote:

Where am I asking the moderators any such thing? I asked you two simple questions but you have answered neither, satisfied instead to use labels on my posting like “bigoted”, “underhand” and “wacko”.

You seem hung up on icons. Would you not be better deploring the wackos whose actions have directly lead to the deaths of how many demonstrators (is it 20,30 worldwide?), rather than discussing burning Danish flags. Notice no mention here, or indeed in my original post, of Muslims, bigoted or otherwise. Or of any religion.



You yourself refer to it as “my Jesus picture”. Anyone seeing it would know who to image is intended to represent. Everyone knows it is not an identikit image. Your original caption “Jesus takes the Metro” drives home the connection. I see you have since my posting edited the caption, removing the direct reference to Jesus… to improve your Jesuitical argument?

More to the point, how do you see the use of that footer advancing in any way your views on Transport21? (That is a question!). If there is no point, and it is offensive to others, then it is gratuitously offensive.

You glory, as I do, that Ireland is a secular republic, yet you feel the need to use religious imagery. I don't get it.

I reiterate, speaking for myself, I find the inappropriate use of imagery of any religion can be offensive. Your use of a Jesus image in this context is offensive to me.

I also believe that that fact will not cause you a momentary tinge of regret.

murphaph

Transport21 Fan wrote:

I think Victor should set up a poll to see if people want my Jesus sig to stay or go. The image gives me great strenght to fight for my Eastern Fish Corridor.

Let the people decide, not the Message Board Mullahs I say!

Where do I vote? I think it's one of the funniest sigs on boards!

Nazareth Public Transit Authority for Dublin!