[article] Stalwarts of unionism must adapt and change to survive

Maskhadov

http://www.thepost.ie/post/pages/p/story.aspx-qqqt=TOM%20MCGURK-qqqs=commentandanalysis-qqqid=11034-qqqx=1.asp

Stalwarts of unionism must adapt and change to survive

15 January 2006 By Tom McGurk
The ‘Love Ulster' campaign is heading south.

Led by Willie Frazer, spokesman for victims' group Families Acting for Innocent Relatives (FAIR), the group is coming to protest outside the Dáil. What exactly it is protesting about is somewhat unclear: there's a litany of the usual grievances post-Good Friday Agreement but, on television recently, Frazer said they wanted to find out if the South really believed in equality for all.

That subtext is presumably to do with testing the tolerance of the citizens of Dublin with a march containing six Orange bands and the usual Union Jack-waving ragbag of hangers-on.

At this point, two things are important to emphasise: firstly, that peaceful protest should be tolerated, and secondly, that it would be a dreadful mistake to react to the provocation that is somehow inimical to Orange parades.

Since, in the first instance, Orange parading in the North was always about public displays of territorialism, it is important that the marchers discover that Dublin is not a series of territories but an authentic public space for citizenship.

On one level, I'm sure there will be vast curiosity from Dubliners, who rarely get an opportunity to see live 18th century political theatre. On another, there will be a profound poignancy to the whole occasion.

Frazer's ragged army, a living museum piece of a long-past imperial age, deserves our compassion, not our contempt. Over a century, as the imperial tide has ebbed away from this island, the last loyal tribe now finds itself trapped on a small disappearing sandbank they call ‘Ulster'.

Unable to contemplate moving into deeper waters to effect their rescue, they simply sit there now - generation after generation - solemnly saying no. Since 1998, the rescue boats have been hovering nearby, but to no avail.

Shivering in the 21st century winds that blow from all directions, they have simply wrapped themselves in the last remaining mantle of sectarianism and refused to budge.

Remarkably, there is not among them now a single voice who would dare articulate the extraordinary moment of both political and economic regeneration that awaits them, had they the wit to see it. Not 20 minutes from Frazer's door sits one of the wealthiest economies in the world.

Where once the border divided a poor, mostly agricultural South from a heavily subsidised but wealthier North, now it divides economic achievement from economic failure. One economy has become the envy of Europe; the other has become a basket-case.

Where are those apparently traditional Northern protestant virtues of hard work, enterprise and economic self-sufficiency that we once used to hear so much about?

Indeed, what shade now are the “grey skies of an Irish Republic'‘ so beloved of the Sandy Row graffiti artists?

London is now showing all the signs of a deep impatience with Northern Irish unionism. In the context of the past war, any reassessment of the North's relationship with Britain would have been seen as a concession to violence. But now, in the absence of violence, and with a united Irish nationalist voice demanding a devolved power-sharing in the North - in tandem with a new and growing cross-border economic relationship with the South - the context is entirely different.

The days of the North having a favoured economic status in comparison to regions of Britain are coming to an end, hastened by continuing unionist political intransigence. With its vast dependence on public service employment and a steadily growing subvention of over stg£5 billion a year from the British treasury, the shoe is beginning to pinch.

Northern secretary Peter Hain has already sent signals of his displeasure, and he has deliberately presented them as an addendum to the forthcoming attempt to re-float the political structures.

Even worse, the social and economic crisis within traditional unionist heartlands is beginning to fragment what were once homogenous, civic and thrifty communities. A ‘loyalist subculture' largely overseen by the remnants of the loyalist paramilitaries has transformed these communities into what might be termed a trailer-park world. Unemployment and educational underachievement are everywhere and, even from the unionist middle classes, the brain-drain to British universities continues.

The lament that “our Protestant culture is being trampled on'‘ simply illustrates that the old heady brew of sectarian triumphalism will no longer be tolerated either by the authorities or by nationalists.

That particular tide was stopped at Drumcree, and was finally turned back during last year's Ardoyne riots.

When one also considers that any ongoing progress towards equality of citizenship and cultures in the North is now being depicted by unionism as a ‘concession to Sinn Féin', the sheer scale of their political bankruptcy becomes evident.

And whatever about a David Trimble-led UUP attempting the task ahead, the prospects are slim that the DUP under Ian Paisley can face up to a political legacy which it was primarily responsible for creating.

And now there is a new side to this ancient political Rubik's cube. The recent decision to reduce local government to seven super-councils, three of which are west of the Bann, raises a new scenario in the context of future stalled political progress. The temptation to devolve more and more power to this tier of local government could create a Celtic Tiger-esque knock-on effect in the nationalist-dominated councils west of the Bann.

Already, the town of Newry is benefiting from its geographical hinterland, and the newM1 motorway is already radicalising employment options in the wider region. Mid-Ulster and the border regions would then have an opportunity for growing economic linkage that will have inevitable political implications.

Daily, the unionist political sandbank grows smaller. Maybe it's a vain hope but even Willie Frazer's bedraggled army, as they process through Dublin, might sense the waters beckoning beyond.

I totally agree with Mc Gurk. The northern protestants are living in an ivory tower (on a sand bank). The orange order is something akin to the KKK.

The unionist leaders should take this oppurtunity in Dublin to make a public appology to the nationalist community in the north and the people in the south .

Flex

Excellent article.

flogen

It's a one sided article but it does make some good points.

The fact is, however, the Unionists will not switch sides for any economic gain, would you?
I think it's time both sides stopped being so childish and realised they need to get along if either of them want to survive. The Irish government is just as unwilling to keep the North afloat as the British are, if anything were to happen here it would be that both governments turn their backs.
Northern Ireland would have a fighting chance at a strong economy if it had a government to lay the foundations for one.

LordSutch

Whats it with you and the North "Maskhadov" you seem to be popping up all over the place with Northern threads! fair enough I suppose if you are actually from the North, but with a name like Maskhadov maybe you are a Russian Spy?

Maskhadov

Im only trying to stimulate discussion ArthurF. I just seen the name on the news one day and thought hows that for a name:D.

murphaph

Maskhadov wrote:

Im only trying to stimulate discussion ArthurF. I just seen the name on the news one day and thought hows that for a name:D.

....and it's an anagram of Vodka Sham!

Zebra3

I wonder will there be members of the Orange Order proudly marching against terrorism given the huge support they've gladly taken from the UVF and the Ulster Dealers Association over the years. (I won't even mention King Rat's LVF).

Will they stand up and condemn the British government for their collusion in America's mass murder (and theft) in Iraq? :rolleyes:

gurramok

Zebra3 wrote:

I wonder will there be members of the Orange Order proudly marching against terrorism given the huge support they've gladly taken from the UVF and the Ulster Dealers Association over the years. (I won't even mention King Rat's LVF).

Its only a certain type of terrorist the orange order dislike, namely from the 'other side'.

Flex

Zebra3 wrote:

I wonder will there be members of the Orange Order proudly marching against terrorism given the huge support they've gladly taken from the UVF and the Ulster Dealers Association over the years. (I won't even mention King Rat's LVF).

Will they stand up and condemn the British government for their collusion in America's mass murder (and theft) in Iraq? :rolleyes:

I think theres gonna be more members of the Orange Order 'marching' than actual relatives of victims. Seems like a big sham to just have an orange order parade in Dublin

LordSutch

Flex wrote:

I think theres gonna be more members of the Orange Order 'marching' than actual relatives of victims. Seems like a big sham to just have an orange order parade in Dublin

Dunno if I agree with you on this point "Flex", I mean to say maybe it will be a very genuine March/ Parade to remember the Victims! and if thats the case then fair enough - after all, we did have to tolerate the Shinners rubbing everybody's noses in it (Remember the Sinn Fein/IRA Rally) in Dublin only last Summer when they transported coach loads of supporters down from the North, not just to commerate their fallen "terrorists" but to celibrate their Armed Struggle! (Now thats what I call disgusting).

SkepticOne

Although the article was very interesting and entertaining, I don't think it makes sence to suggest that unionists should 'adapt and change' since the very core of their position is that they not accept certain changes, specifically moves towards greater union with the south.

Flex

ArthurF wrote:

Dunno if I agree with you on this point "Flex", I mean to say maybe it will be a very genuine March/ Parade to remember the Victims! and if thats the case then fair enough - after all, we did have to tolerate the Shinners rubbing everybody's noses in it (Remember the Sinn Fein/IRA Rally) in Dublin only last Summer when they transported coach loads of supporters down from the North, not just to commerate their fallen "terrorists" but to celibrate their Armed Struggle! (Now thats what I call disgusting).

Well 'ArthurF', I agree with you that if it was actually a parade for victims then Id see no problem whatsoever with it. But, heres what i think the real reason or plan behind this parade is

*Its being styled as a parade for victims, when in fact there will be a massive orange order presence. (Needless to say many many people find the orange order provocative). So the idea might be to claim this is a victims parade so when/if people 'react' to the orange order parad... ahem...I mean presence, then Willie Frazer and the DUP and FAIR can head back up north and say "Oh ya see!!! ya see!!! The poor innocent relatives of victims wanted only to march and have a parade to remember victims but the intolerant south wouldnt allow them to. So in a united we (unionists) would be doomed!!" (When in fact people would probably really only be opposed to the orange order presence).Thus increasing support for hardline unionist party, the DUP. Thats just my opinion though.

Cantab.

This parade is a cunning and well-calculated political trick that is ultimately about marching up north. The unionists are using a grandious parade masked as 'a cross-border intitiative' to give them political justification for marching down sensitive roads in Belfast.

They'll turn around next summer and say 'if we can march in Dublin, the capital of the republic, why can't we march down the Falls road?'

If the Dublin parade goes ahead, book your holidays early and get the hell out of this country for the July marching season.

Flex

Cantab. wrote:

This parade is a cunning and well-calculated political trick that is ultimately about marching up north. The unionists are using a grandious parade masked as 'a cross-border intitiative' to give them political justification for marching down sensitive roads in Belfast.

They'll turn around next summer and say 'if we can march in Dublin, the capital of the republic, why can't we march down the Falls road?'

If the Dublin parade goes ahead, book your holidays early and get the hell out of this country for the July marching season.

Yes, thats another probable outcome

LordSutch

Flex wrote:

Well 'ArthurF', I agree with you that if it was actually a parade for victims then Id see no problem whatsoever with it. But, heres what i think the real reason or plan behind this parade is

*Its being styled as a parade for victims, when in fact there will be a massive orange order presence. (Needless to say many many people find the orange order provocative).

Provocative? Why are the Orange Order Provocative? how many people did they exterminate in the Troubles?
What I found really distasteful was the Sinn Fein/IRA rally in Dublin last Summer - "That really was a disgrace" and lets face it they really
Were responsible for many hundreds of deaths in the Trioubles, and to be honest I did feel a little sick as they menacingly marched passed in
Full "IRA Paramilitary" regalia to the sound of drums - and so, I hope to attend the Orange Parade in Dublin (not to glorify the Orange order),
but to genuinely Remember the Victims of the IRA!

Flex

ArthurF wrote:

Provocative? Why are the Orange Order Provocative?

Is that a joke?

I hope to attend the Orange Parade in Dublin (not to glorify the Orange order),
but to genuinely Remember the Victims of the IRA!

Yes to remember the 'real victims' who were 'really mainly unionist folk', right? Any nationalists going to be in attendance, since people from the nationalist community were murdered by the IRA too.

But nah, Im sure a parade being organised/attended by the likes of Willie Frazer, DUP representatives, love Ulster, FAIR and the orange order with their kick-the-Pope band couldnt possibly have an ulterior motive.

Kilsally

Interesting article dispersed with numerous inaccuracies.
The march is a victims march organised by Willie Fraziers FAIR, supported by WRUC (a Belfast womens group), Love Ulster and the Grand Orange Lodge of Ireland amongst others. The six bands are not "Orange" bands, the Orange Order has no power over them. THe bands have also been curtailed by the organisers from well over 20 who wanted to go.Bands are bands and they have their own elected officers to deal with their day to day business, bills and whatever. Grand Lodge has asked for Orangemen to support this demonstration but has also called for no Orange regalia to be worn stating that Orangemen should attend the rally as individuals supporting the victims grouos and not as Orange Lodges.

The demonstration was primarily about the On-The-run legislation which would allow the perpetrators of the Omagh bombs and indeed the dublin and Monaghan bombings get away with murder without ever having to serve a day in prison. It is also about Unionist disenfranchisement with the Good Friday Agreement, not anti-peace, all parties support the peace process but some consider the GFA to be faulty and also the Southern governmetn to be hypocritical to keep the killers of Garda McCabe in jail yet call for the release of the killers of Northern Ireland Police Officers and calling for Sinn Fein to be in Government in NI whilst ruling it out in the South. It is not intended to be intimidating. It is simply a political demonstration. It has been mooted that a Tri-colour will also be flown adn invitations have been sent to some TD`s to try and broaden the scope of the event.

Kilsally

Flex wrote:

their kick-the-Pope band couldnt possibly have an ulterior motive.

You know that do you?
I highly doubt you will see a "blood and thunder" type band at this demonstration. I would assume the six bands will be entirely tasteful with Pipe, Accordian and Silver bands being likely candidates perhaps playing hymns.

Kilsally

I've removed your signiture from those posts as its way too big and breaches the boards.ie guidelines for signitures.

Please read this thread for whats allowed and down size the pictures accordingly.
Otherwise theres an automatic script run by the admin team here that will wipe your sig automatically.

Thank you

Sponge Bob

Kilsally wrote:

I highly doubt you will see a "blood and thunder" type band at this demonstration. I would assume the six bands will be entirely tasteful with Pipe, Accordian and Silver bands being likely candidates perhaps playing hymns.

A pity we will not get any 'billy boy' bands to show in Dublin , the traditional orange band is a bit tame nay respectable and its the billy boy mob and their knuckle dragging tattooed special brewed and skinheaded brethern (and thats just the women and children ) who cause almost all the parades trouble in the north anyway not the trad bands with respectable suppporters .

Its almost like the parade in Dublin is not meant to be representative of reality

ghostdancer

ArthurF wrote:

Provocative? Why are the Orange Order Provocative? how many people did they exterminate in the Troubles?

they're provocative as they march through areas where they're wanted to antagonise local residents, waving banners glorifying UDA/UVF, who, among many other murders, murdered people in Monaghan and Dublin in 1974.
they also encourage rioting when they don't get their way.

how many did they exterminate? well the organisation isn't involved with that, so probably none, it does have members who are heavily involved in Loyalist Paramilitaries who murdered plenty of people during the troubles.
luckily no-one was killed when various members of the OO were captured on camera waving samuari swords at riot police over the summer. no doubt about it though, the OO is made up of complete scumbags, some of whom standing shoulder to shoulder with you in Dublin as you selectively remember victims of the Troubles.

Kilsally

"they're provocative as they march through areas where they're wanted to antagonise local residents, waving banners glorifying UDA/UVF, who, among many other murders, murdered people in Monaghan and Dublin in 1974."

Firstly no they dont and I challenge you to provide a picture. You might find a "kick the pope" loyalist band doing so but you will not find and Orange lodge doing so. Secondly the protest in Dublin IS ABOUT the terrorists being allowed to go free without conviction or serving any jail term, INCLUDING the Monaghan and Dublin Bombers (as the Republics government was also due to implement the Amnesty). The legislation has now been abandoned due to the uproar North, South and in the UK which means any terrorists Loyalist or Republican INCLUDING the dublin and Monaghan bombers and the Omagh bombers will have to serve two years and then possible be released under the Early Release Scheme of the Good Friday Agreement. Even that is disgusting but a darned site better than the OTR legislation.

"how many did they exterminate? well the organisation isn't involved with that, so probably none, it does have members who are heavily involved in Loyalist Paramilitaries who murdered plenty of people during the troubles."

Well the University of ulster CAIN site breaks things down like this:-

Summary of Religion of the person killed: Religion_Summary Count
Catholic 1522
nfNI 715
Protestant 1286
TOTAL 3523

2002 Catholic 5
Protestant 11

2003 Catholic 6
Protestant 6

2004 Catholic 2
Protestant 3

2005 Catholic 6
Prostestant 6

Total Catholic 1541
Total Protestant 1312
Not from NI 715
TOTAL 3568

Up to 2001
British Security 363
Irish Security 5
Loyalist Paramilitary 1020
not known 80
Republican Paramilitary 2055
TOTAL 3523

Kilsally

ghostdancer wrote:

the OO is made up of complete scumbags,

I suggest you go ahead and watch some of the streaming video over at www.orange-order.co.uk to see how offensive (not) an ordinary Orange Order parade is folks.

gurramok

Kilsally wrote:

I suggest you go ahead and watch some of the streaming video over at www.orange-order.co.uk to see how offensive (not) an ordinary Orange Order parade is folks.

Yes, we seen them in action at Drumcree and more recently Whiterock where they engineered massive violence to overturn a lawful parade ban.
The forces of law and order despite the numerous attacks by these thugs stood firm for once.

Dave!

Excellent article indeed!

Diorraing

Kilsally wrote:

I suggest you go ahead and watch some of the streaming video over at www.orange-order.co.uk to see how offensive (not) an ordinary Orange Order parade is folks.

No need really - just listen to the lyrics of their songs:
Derry down down - Croppies Lie Down.
Not offensive at all. I mean if catholics marched down the Shankill singing:
Huns Lie Down, you wouldn't be offended at all Kilsally.

Kilsally

Diorraing wrote:

No need really - just listen to the lyrics of their songs:
Derry down down - Croppies Lie Down.
Not offensive at all. I mean if catholics marched down the Shankill singing:
Huns Lie Down, you wouldn't be offended at all Kilsally.

aye i hear that one all the time. NOT.
try hymns, The Star of County Down, Irish Rover, The Sash, Derry`s Walls, Orange Lily O, The Sash, even heard The Great Escape and also Coronation Street. If you go back far enough you do find lyrics like "croppies lie down" but not a long time.

Kilsally

gurramok wrote:

Yes, we seen them in action at Drumcree and more recently Whiterock where they engineered massive violence to overturn a lawful parade ban.
The forces of law and order despite the numerous attacks by these thugs stood firm for once.

hmm 2 parades out of 3000 every year, one at an interface type area and the other on a main road into Portadown. suggest you watch the drumcree video over at that site too in the orange order folder of the streaming video.

Diorraing

Kilsally wrote:

aye i hear that one all the time. NOT.
try hymns, The Star of County Down, Irish Rover, The Sash, Derry`s Walls, Orange Lily O, The Sash, even heard The Great Escape and also Coronation Street. If you go back far enough you do find lyrics like "croppies lie down" but not a long time.

Not according to: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Croppies_Lie_Down

Let me give you a direct quote: "The song is famous, or notorious, for being sung by members of the Orange Order in their parades"
Turns out they do sing it. Biggots

Kilsally

Diorraing wrote:

Not according to: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Croppies_Lie_Down

Let me give you a direct quote: "The song is famous, or notorious, for being sung by members of the Orange Order in their parades"
Turns out they do sing it. Biggots

Never heard it ever. Secondly they dont sing on parade at all. Thirdly it doesnt actually mention religion or anything else. "Croppies" meant people with closely cropped hair, a fashion associated with the anti-aristocrat (and therefore, anti-wig) French revolutionaries. which like I say may have been sung a long time ago when the Orange Order was anti-Unionist, pro Dublin Parlaiment Anglican ascendancy before the act of Union adn before Presbyterians were allowed to join the Order, which up until that point was quite aristocratic but is now working class.

Diorraing

Kilsally wrote:

Never heard it ever. Secondly they dont sing on parade at all. Thirdly it doesnt actually mention religion or anything else. "Croppies" meant people with closely cropped hair, a fashion associated with the anti-aristocrat (and therefore, anti-wig) French revolutionaries. which like I say may have been sung a long time ago when the Orange Order was anti-Unionist, pro Dublin Parlaiment Anglican ascendancy before the act of Union adn before Presbyterians were allowed to join the Order, which up until that point was quite aristocratic but is now working class.

Oh so its OK to go around singing Croppies Lie Down because croppies isn't a derogotary term: Its just like singing Catholics Lie Down - Thats harldy offensive is it? You seem to have selelctive hearing because this is the song most closely associated with the order and the one I have heard sung most from their biggoted lips.

gurramok

Kilsally wrote:

hmm 2 parades out of 3000 every year, one at an interface type area and the other on a main road into Portadown. suggest you watch the drumcree video over at that site too in the orange order folder of the streaming video.

March where they are welcome and NOT where they are NOT welcome.

I have and many people have watched the OO's disgraceful behaviour particularly at Drumcree for many years, only thing is we watch the major news stations for coverage and not some propaganda video.

Kilsally

Diorraing wrote:

Oh so its OK to go around singing Croppies Lie Down because croppies isn't a derogotary term: Its just like singing Catholics Lie Down - Thats harldy offensive is it? You seem to have selelctive hearing because this is the song most closely associated with the order and the one I have heard sung most from their biggoted lips.

aye right. ive never heard a song sung at any parade let alone the one you mention. they dont sing..the badn plays and the guys march. maybe in a pub or something but again ive never heard that song youd be more likely to hear the billy boys or some paramilitary song being sung by drunken "kick the pope" band members. secondly it seems to be a soldiers song singing about rebels. religion isnt mentioned and infact the song seems to be about the United Irishmen in which case it is Presbyterians as well as Catholics.

how about you go to that site and watch "Tobermore" which last for over two hours and shows the entire 12th July parade and point out a single man, lodge or band that even opens there mouth in song? No? Because there isnt any singing and that the way the parades are. Video tells alot.

Kilsally

Suggest you also watch BATTLEFIELD BRITAIN - A CLASH OF KINGS: THE BATTLE OF THE BOYNE on BBC 2 this saturday which details the results of the victory at the Boyne and the political and religious makeups of the armies showing it was vastly more complex than Protestant King and army beats Catholic King and army
By Corinne Field
http://www.24hourmuseum.org.uk/trlout_gfx_en/TRA23254.html

Flex

Kilsally wrote:

Suggest you also watch BATTLEFIELD BRITAIN - A CLASH OF KINGS: THE BATTLE OF THE BOYNE on BBC 2 this saturday which details the results of the victory at the Boyne and the political and religious makeups of the armies showing it was vastly more complex than Protestant King and army beats Catholic King and army

Why is it called 'Battlefield Britain' if its covering a battle that took place in Ireland? I know lots about the Battle of the Boyne, and dont understand why the role of certain people, like the Pope, in aiding William isnt remembered to a proper degree and why banners and such arnt dedicated to him at orange order parades and such

fly_agaric

Kilsally wrote:

I highly doubt you will see a "blood and thunder" type band at this demonstration. I would assume the six bands will be entirely tasteful with Pipe, Accordian and Silver bands being likely candidates perhaps playing hymns.

Will the Orange Order droogies wear their killer bowler hat things like on the old tellyvision? They always remind me of oddjob and I'd like to see one try to slice a Garda (or a shinner) in half with one.:D

edit - forgive me, I've been at something and have strange pictures in my head.

Kilsally

Flex wrote:

Why is it called 'Battlefield Britain' if its covering a battle that took place in Ireland? I know lots about the Battle of the Boyne, and dont understand why the role of certain people, like the Pope, in aiding William isnt remembered to a proper degree and why banners and such arnt dedicated to him at orange order parades and such

Its a tv series about battles. things like trafalgar. the boyne episode is the only one in Ireland but it affected the whole area, even europe..and he sailed from england with his army. the pope thing is mentioned..funny to think he was small and asmatic, took an asthma attack in the middle of the boyne river, fell off his horse and nearly drowned except someone pulled him out.

hill16

Kilsally the Orange Order marching through a Nationalist area is like the KKK marching through a black area.Most order members wont even meet with residents because they see them as second class citizens.The sectarian Billy Boys is one of their favourite songs.

http://www.glasgowguide.co.uk/wjmc/billyboy.shtml

Sand

Why is it called 'Battlefield Britain' if its covering a battle that took place in Ireland?

Probably to *really* irritate people irritated by that sort of thing? Good for a laugh if nothing else.
Or maybe its just a name of a series covering 8 battles, and not a constitutional challenge on our independance? I dont know, Im just throwing out a wild guess.

Kilsally the Orange Order marching through a Nationalist area is like the KKK marching through a black area.Most order members wont even meet with residents because they see them as second class citizens.The sectarian Billy Boys is one of their favourite songs.

Makes you wonder why provos are so hateful of the Orange Order and/or dismissive of any element of Ulster-Scots identity but yet so determined to install them in the Irish republic. Of course, most Provo thinking on a United Ireland blindly ignores reality to begin with so they probably assume the OO will vanish one morning, never to be seen again. Mind you, it wouldnt be the first time people the provos didnt like dissapeared.

gurramok

Sand wrote:

Makes you wonder why provos are so hateful of the Orange Order and/or dismissive of any element of Ulster-Scots identity but yet so determined to install them in the Irish republic. Of course, most Provo thinking on a United Ireland blindly ignores reality to begin with so they probably assume the OO will vanish one morning, never to be seen again. Mind you, it wouldnt be the first time people the provos didnt like dissapeared.

Funny thing is, you just labelled the entire population of a residential area that opposes a hate march of them through their area as Provos.

Sand

Funny thing is, you just labelled the entire population of a residential area that opposes a hate march of them through their area as Provos.

Funny thing is, I didnt. The other funny thing is I could care less even if I had.

BTW Kilsally, Im actually stunned youve managed to retain civility/patience so far. For parity of esteem to work, it needs more people like yourself who are willing to attempt to explain what lies beyond the stereotypes. Unfortunately youre outnumbered...

A Dub in Glasgo

Sand wrote:

The other funny thing is I could care less even if I had.

There is really no surprise there, you did not even have to state it.

BTW Kilsally, Im actually stunned youve managed to retain civility/patience so far.

You are stunned quite easily

For parity of esteem to work, it needs more people like yourself who are willing to attempt to explain what lies beyond the stereotypes. Unfortunately youre outnumbered...

Someone who denys all knowlegde of what really goes on in an OO march/
12th July Celebration. It really is what you want to hear, isn't it?

Flex

Sand wrote:

The other funny thing is I could care less even if I had.

You dont? Thats so disrespectful towards people who would most likely be nationalists/republicans, not like you at all Sand. :rolleyes:

BTW Kilsally, Im actually stunned youve managed to retain civility/patience so far. For parity of esteem to work, it needs more people like yourself who are willing to attempt to explain what lies beyond the stereotypes. Unfortunately youre outnumbered...

LOL!!! Mr. "IhateRepublicanswithaburningobsessivepassion" talking about how to make parity of esteem work.

Sand

Someone who denys all knowlegde of what really goes on in an OO march/
12th July Celebration. It really is what you want to hear, isn't it?

Well, if he is denying the reality of a Northern Irish organisation he wouldnt be lonely for company. The amount of people who run around shouting "I never heard of SFIRA, the IRA has gone away, it doesnt exist" etc etc.

Either way, the Orange Order isnt going to vanish. The Provos are going to have to learn to live with it, as much as they demand the Unionists live with them, and their variable respect for the law. Shouting about how theyre nazis and hate marches etc isnt going to lead to anything other than confrontation, bitterness and tribalism. Exactly the sort of conditions both the DUP and SFIRA have profited from and encouraged.

At the end of the day, the OO is going to be a part of this Dublin parade/demo. Will the sky fall down? No. And if you feel the issues are intractable and the OO is impossible to live with, then surely you cant be in favour of importing those intractable issues into our relatively healthy democracy?

LOL!!! Mr. "IhateRepublicanswithaburningobsessivepassion" talking about how to make parity of esteem work.

Well the Provos alternative of dividing NI into Catholic and Protestant areas where neither side ventures into the others area without permission isnt exactly a recipe for bliss.

Kilsally

hill16 wrote:

Kilsally the Orange Order marching through a Nationalist area is like the KKK marching through a black area.Most order members wont even meet with residents because they see them as second class citizens.The sectarian Billy Boys is one of their favourite songs.

http://www.glasgowguide.co.uk/wjmc/billyboy.shtml

No its nothing like it. But for starters are you talking Nationalist area or Roman Catholic area?
the sectarian billy boys is actually a very old tune from Scotland. it was also played during the american civil war as the song "marching through georgia", well prior to the billy boys criminal gang in glasgow in the early 1900`s which the lyrics "the billy boys" is about.

as Rowan Atkinson recently stated:
"To criticise a person for their race is manifestly irrational and ridiculous but to criticise their religion, that is a right. That is a freedom.

"The freedom to criticise ideas, any ideas - even if they are sincerely held beliefs - is one of the fundamental freedoms of society.

"A law which attempts to say you can criticise and ridicule ideas as long as they are not religious ideas is a very peculiar law indeed."

Kilsally

Sand wrote:

Well the Provos alternative of dividing NI into Catholic and Protestant areas where neither side ventures into the others area without permission isnt exactly a recipe for bliss.

Exactly, the very notion of labelling areas as Catholic areas or Protestant areas is highly dangerous. When you see UDA scumbags pipe bombing Catholics from "Protestant areas" you really havent much to complain about if you are advocating the usange of such things in the first place. People of similar opinions will of course congregate together but that should not undermine the rights of the individual. People should be free to live where they want, play what sports they want, joi which organisations they want and walk or march a public road if they want so long as it is peaceful.

Kilsally

Sand wrote:

Funny thing is, I didnt. The other funny thing is I could care less even if I had.

BTW Kilsally, Im actually stunned youve managed to retain civility/patience so far. For parity of esteem to work, it needs more people like yourself who are willing to attempt to explain what lies beyond the stereotypes. Unfortunately youre outnumbered...

Stereotypes are sometimes rooted in truth but they also take a life of their own. I`m not saying the Orange Order is perfect because it is not but it is not a homogenous single block. There are hardliners and there are moderates as in all things. There are bigots with hatred of Catholics and there are those that simply disagree on a theologocal basis with Catholicism justa s there are outside Orangeism. Infact I would say those Loyalists outside Orangeism that have little to do with churches, know nothing of theology and are simply bigoted in their view of Catholicsm with relatively little knowledge of either Catholicms or Reformed theology.

Kilsally

"LOL!!! Mr. "IhateRepublicanswithaburningobsessivepassion" talking about how to make parity of esteem work."

what is your definition of Republican? If it is the American model then I have very little to argue with as I am in much agreement. Sinn Feins model however is based on a narrow definition of Irish Nationalism and marxism which I disagree with. Personally I believe an independent Northern Ireland based on some form of power sharing or qualified majority is the way forward.

Flex

Kilsally wrote:

"LOL!!! Mr. "IhateRepublicanswithaburningobsessivepassion" talking about how to make parity of esteem work."

what is your definition of Republican? If it is the American model then I have very little to argue with as I am in much agreement. Sinn Feins model however is based on a narrow definition of Irish Nationalism and marxism which I disagree with. Personally I believe an independent Northern Ireland based on some form of power sharing or qualified majority is the way forward.

my definition of an Irish republican is someone who supports a united sovereign Ireland free from foreign rule; ie. the ambition of the United Irishmen. AFAIK, the American Republican party are conservatives and Im not a fan of marxism or Sinn Fein tbh. Solution I see is Fermanagh, Tyrone, Derry and Armagh going back to Ireland and Antrim and Down being ruled from Britain or somewhere. If you are asking me what I think a 'republican' is then Id presume its something like preferring a president over a monarch or something along those lines.