I.T. Graduates - how true is this?

DublinWriter

I recently was talking with a friend of a friend who graduated just over a year ago with a Degree in Computer Science from Maynooth.

He was telling me that most of the people who graduated with him are now working as first-line helpdesk people, little more than call-centre people.

He wisely chose to stay in hardware, as he was of the opinion that having any helpdesk position on his CV would mark him for life.

From my previous years in I.T. in the 90’s, most hardware people I worked with had little more than a pass leaving cert. First line helpdesk people didn’t even count in the I.T. career landscape, yet jobs were a lot tougher to find.

Then I read in Fridays Irish Times that businesses are whinging because of the lack of I.T. Graduates. WTF?

I’m inclined to think that businesses are whinging because they don’t want to invest anything in taking on ‘green’ I.T. graduates, and are only looking for junior I.T. people with experience too, yet aren’t prepared to give fresh graduates a break.

I was quite shocked to hear that many I.T. graduates are working in helpdesk call-centres.

Would anyone agree with this, or have any personal experiences to relate?

AARRRGH

I read that Irish Times article as well. I noticed all the quotes about there being a huge demand for IT workers were (as usual) from IT lecturers in the Universities. I suspect this is because they are afraid of losing their jobs if students keep shying away from their courses.

I didn't notice any quotes from any companies saying they are having a hard time recruiting IT staff.

...

I work in the recruitment industry (or at least, did until last week.) The only IT jobs I noticed were hard to fill were Java or SEO related. Everything else seemed fairly straight forward.

wes

I only know a few people working help desk jobs from my class who graduated in May. I was working as Technical Analyst and I am not working as a Quality Engineer in Sun. Most in my class seem to be doing pretty decent jobs. There are jobs for graduates, just takes some looking is all.

daveirl

This post has been deleted.

leeroybrown

In the last few years a lot of IT graduates who needed a job and couldn't find a reasonable position or weren't searching properly took front line support jobs as a foot on the ladder. Most seemed to see it as a form of industry experience with a view to getting a proper job elsewhere or in the same company. I wouldn't advise anyone who is competent in IT to pursue this route.

I'm not exactly sure what you mean by 'stayed in hardware'. If you have the right kind of hardware based job then you might do very well.

Businesses are probably winining about the lack of good competent graduates. I'm sure that there are a lot of businesses out there that don't want to employ a sizable chunk of the IT graduates as they're not very good. You're probably right in saying that businesses are reluctant to employ 'green' graduates a lot of the time - they have been for about five years. A portion of this can also be attruibuted to a wider attempt to get people back into IT as the numbers actually doing the courses has been decimated.

comad

I couldn't agree more with what the original poster wrote. There are so many companies unwilling to take on eager, well-educated young graduates. I did a BSc, got a little IT experience then I did a MSc. I'm lucky that I got a really decent job with but it was seriously hard work to get a job. The view of the IT industry in Ireland is really overrated. Google, Ebay, Yahoo are huge companies based in Ireland but from what I can see they seem to do most of their development, R&D in the US then all the donkey work seems to be done in Ireland. The must be amazed that they can get people with degrees to answer the phones for them!

The smartest thing an IT graduate can do is not believe all the hype

MrWenger1982

DublinWriter, can you give me the initials of this graduate from Maynooth? I probably know him\her. I won't print their name on this website but I will tell you something about them to prove I know them and I'll know if they worked hard in college. Most who worked hard and graduated from CSSE in Maynooth within the past 2 years and have got decent jobs. A lot of that course though has gone into crap jobs - help desk, testing etc averaging 20-26k.

leeroybrown

comad wrote:

The view of the IT industry in Ireland is really overrated.

Definitely. While I currently enjoy my job, I can't help thinking that ultimately I'd be better off if I picked an interesting buy more financially rewarding career.

wheres me jumpa

im just wondering how well a 6 month work placement stands up as experience? that will be the only the experience i will have on my cv when im out looking for full time work.

TempestSabre

My experience is that most IT companies are not willing to train their staff. They prefer to take on people with experience or contractors. So if you don't have experience then your kinda stuffed.

Most people do support as step on the ladder if they can't find anything else. The problem is that you can get too comfy and not willing to push yourself harder to get out of it.

However I don't see that there a problem doing support, and I think everyone should do at least some support, it give you an appreciation for the user experience. However you shouldn't do to much a year at most, but do some certs, or projects outside of work that give you the right kind of experience, and try really hard to get into the area that you want.

That said if you are graduate, and have done the right projects in college and outside of college you should pick up work in the right area because you DO have experience, those projects. Really you should be able to present those projects for review and your work should stand on its own.

However I don't believe there is shortage of IT staff. The jobs being advertised just don't reflect that. If anything it reflects that lack of training and employee development that Irish companies are guilty of. Thats is now reflected in lack of people with the right skillset.

You reap what you sow.

kc66

Is it a coincidence that the article mentioned, and another one in the Independent about 8000 IT job vacancies, were published as CAO forms are being filled out.
I am an IT graduate who found it very difficult to get a good job as did some others in my course. I got an honors degree yet couldnt get one of these 8000 jobs?
Its bullsh!t published to try and fill the courses.

kippy

Interesting topic.
From experience I find that companies prefer to hire someone with some IT experience-whether or not the experience was gained through college work placement or a few years on a helpdesk-they dont really mind.
I.T is a very wide area-programmers/Support/Networking etc etc-there are many different areas and many different degrees,certs and diplomas. I am speaking from a very general view.
If you want to get into the Support or Networking areas then having worked on a Helpdesk for a few years is a huge advantage-even having worked for 6 months on a helpdesk is a good advantage to have.
I have found that companies are indeed unwilling to take on graduates with no experience simply because many of them havent a clue about computers hardware/software/navigation of OS/Networking and as such companies have to train them, practicilly from scratch whereas if they hired someone with a cert who has worked on a helpdesk(depending on the type) for two years-they will not need anywhere near as much training.
I am have worked in a support role for about 3/4 years now-all I have is a certificate in IT. During the cert there were 6 months experience. I spent this on a IT helpdesk in Dublin, after the cert finished they offered me further work. Moved from them after a few months to another helpdesk where I was more in charge of what was going on from an IT side. Got trained up with the Microsoft, CompTIA stuff, then moved on after 18 months. Now working as a Network admin.
Without the helpdesk jobs at the start I would have found it difficult to progress into the job I am in now. Even the MS and CoptTIA, as much as people say are not relevant, have all helped.
I do see in the future if I wish to progress into management that the lack of a degree could be a hindrance however I intend to pursue a part time one over the next while while also continuing with my professional certs, Cisco, some more Microsoft.
So what am I saying-you may have to start out on a helpdesk/service desk, the key is making the most of your time there so that you can progress to better paying jobs faster.
Also, I wouldnt look down on a helpdesk job, there is nothing wrong with it-apart from sometimes the money but look around you can get better paying helpdesk jobs after spending some time on the lower paying ones.
A lot of the alleged jobs coming on line are probably going to be in the Dublin area and a lot of them may not be suitable for graduates-but the people currently in IT will perhaps change jobs when these come online freeing up jobs at the "entry level"
Kippy

quon

Yeah, and I'm sure if it was investigated you'd find out that that 8000 figure was probably calculated by going onto the top 10 recruitment websites and searching for jobs containing "IT" and "graduate" and adding them up. It's a farce.

I'm 26, graduated at 23, haven't been able to get a job in IT and believe me, I have tried. Unless you get a first or know someone who is hiring, it's virtually impossible. If I can't get into an IT job this year, **** it, I'm going to do an apprenticeship in car mechanics. **** pay for the first two years, but at least it will pay, and I'll have a job in something I was trained in.

HashSlinging

I actually never did the full leaving cert, left school early and trained as a chef in cathal brugha street, then after a couple of years I wanted to change. I done a FAS course and got placed in a call centre next to C.S. college grads, I actually got promoted out of the helpdesk after six months and went on to manage a team of 12. This was back in 95. I've done 10 years in IT and now fancy another change.

ronbyrne2005

theres millions of people graduating every year in china and india etc with computer related degrees,all the jobs will move here in time and wages will be driven down around the world.i know several people with 1:1's from dcu who struggled to get decent jobs in last few years and one is now doing phd after doing masters as he couldnt get good job in software.

the_syco

TBH, 6 months makes a difference, between an interview and a job. Esp if in the 6 months, you actaully did something. IMO, 6 months as a tech mokey, and a cert will get you a job. And 20000-26000 is good, starting off. Anything higher, may be unrealistic, from someone with a cert POV.

pwd

I graduated in 2002 with a H2.1. Most of my class got jobs in technical support and are still there as far as I know. I got contract work on and off, mainly in software testing. I also worked in menial jobs when I couldn't get IT work, which was for significant periods of time. I recently got a job that I really like as a technical analyst.
I've been through the thing of being an IT graduate who can't get the work they want.

Here is my advice:

- Work on IT projects all the time, especially when you are not in an IT job. Put the results online. You'll learn a lot by doing this, and you demonstrate that you can come up with ideas.

- When you get your foot in a door in any place that has IT at all, try to get working on the IT side of things. I got good Access experience by keeping my eyes open in a menial job and offering to do that sort of work when I saw they did it. When you are in an IT job, keep your eyes open for things you can do, and offer to do them.

-work on your presentation, and your interview skills. Be able to describe every project on your cv in detail without having to think for a start.

-most of all, you need to stay positive. If you are out of work for 6 months, but you develop independent projects during that time, you demonstrate competence and enthusiasm just as well as someone would be able to in a decent job. And if you demonstrate that you want the job that much in the first place, it's a pretty sure thing that you aren't going to be complacent once you get it. So even if you are unemployed you can turn it to your advantage.

Just keep plugging away and something will come along that suits you and you suit really well. When it does then go for it.

damnyanks

I think people are just being fussy or aren't looking hard enough. I'm going into my final year next year but am currently on a placement for the year (Now study / work in the UK).

But I also did a cert in Dublin and was able to land 1 summer work placement and 1 "real" contract, that gives me roughly 1 year exp.

I've always avoided tech support and stated in my interviews its not a job I'd consider. I don't have a very good academic record either (285lc points, 2.1 in college) so I'm not some exception that can make such demands!

seamus

A lot of problems stem from the recruiters too though. Few recruiters are actully aware of the nature of the work, and only know the market. So when an employer looks for "3 years experience", you could get someone with 3 years experience and no clue, just as easily as you could get someone with 1.5 years experience and they'd be great. Lord knows I've worked with a few people with 5 years experience up on me, being fascinated by stuff I was taking for granted.
Though recruiters will blanket not send any CVs on unless they precisely fit the specs. Maybe it's a policy thing. This of course causes issues when the jobs are undervalued by the employer. I had a recruiter tell me that €34k was just a little too high to aim for someone with two years experience. The job in question was asking for 4 years experience, and I otherwise easily fitted the description (in fact I thought it was a little beneath me, but the money was good! ).
I wasn't going to bother argue with her that €34k was a tad low when you're looking for someone with industry certification and 4 years experience.

wes

I wouldn't bother with recruiters, if you can try and get onto an IT manager as they tend to know what there looking for.

seamus

wes wrote:

I wouldn't bother with recruiters, if you can try and get onto an IT manager as they tend to know what there looking for.

Yeah actually, I forgot to include that. I have yet to meet anyone who got an IT job via a recruitment agency.

TempestSabre

damnyanks wrote:

I think people are just being fussy or aren't looking hard enough. I...

Of theres always an element of luck to these things. So unless you've been in the position of finding it hard being dismissive of other peoples difficulties is a mite condescending. Even if thats not your intention. I found it hard to get something decent one month only to have 3 or 4 offers the next. It can be just a matter of unlucky timing.

TempestSabre

seamus wrote:

Yeah actually, I forgot to include that. I have yet to meet anyone who got an IT job via a recruitment agency.

When I was a contractor I got 100% of my jobs through agencies. As do most of the contractors I know. Many of the people I know got permanent positions through them aswell. Its not a nice process though as agencies are woeful to deal with. very unprofessional. However I would agree that you tend to get a better, more long term jobs through other avenues. Like personal contacts, and such. Networking basically.

leeroybrown

One interesting phenomonon I have observed is people giving out about there being no jobs when there are some (generally smaller) companies struggling to fill reasonably good roles.

I will also echo the sentiments of previous posters that making personal contact with IT managers or even a company's own IT recruiters & HR is a better way to get an interview/job. I have gotten all mj jobs through either personal recommendation or personal contact with someone from the company.

wes

One thing i should have said to qualify what I said above is that recruitment agencies are rubbish for graduates. I was pretty much told point blank by 2 recruiters that chances are they wouldn't have anything for me unless I had at least a years experience.

the_syco

leeroybrown wrote:

One interesting phenomonon I have observed is people giving out about there being no jobs when there are some (generally smaller) companies struggling to fill reasonably good roles.

Ah-haw. And, erm, where could we find out about said jobs? Its not enough to want, but also they need to advertise, as I can't mind read, thus unless its printed somewhere, I won't know if the job is vacent.

TempestSabre

I note that the times for the first time in about 2 or 3 yrs has a two full columns for IT. Theres a couple of large ads in there filing it out, and the usual generic agency ads. But still...

leeroybrown

the_syco wrote:

Ah-haw. And, erm, where could we find out about said jobs? Its not enough to want, but also they need to advertise, as I can't mind read, thus unless its printed somewhere, I won't know if the job is vacent.

The jobs I refer to were advertised by all the usual methods.

pwd

I got my current job via an agency.
I got my last contract job through an agency.
I was offered 6 interviews for well-paid jobs from other agencies while I was waiting for confirmation about the job I took. And some of those jobs were advertising for people with twice as much experience as I have.

I found once I got one contract through an agency, and good feedback on its completion, the agency became very interested and helpful (they gave me lots of advice on my cv, and even a warmup interview before the real one).

I think they try to give roles to people they've dealt with before ahead of unknowns.
I think they definitely prefer to deal with people who are straight-talking with them. Recruitment is pretty much a sales job. They want to fill jobs well, but also quickly. I think this makes credibility very important because it means they can deal with you without having to waste time checking you're not bullsh1tting.

kc66

I have had nothing but bad experiences with agencies. In particular one time they said they sent my CV to a company, I checked with the company, but they didn't receive it. After 6 months wasting my time with agencies I started applying directly to companies and had a job within 6 weeks.

caff

Still looking for a job, graduated CSSE from maynooth after august repeats back in sept. Since then I tempted for 6 weeks but quit as it was 4 hourse travel today and incredibly boring. Very few IT jobs around winter I found. But in the past week things picking up, got 5 phone calls. I interview so far but hopefully more. I think the job scene is pretty seasonal, expecially since I didn't graduate over the sumer like most.

I'm trying for the FAS overseas placement thing, linkie there if anyone wants to take a loook and help me out

link

mada999

I.T is crazy...starting salary for degree student I.T Management? 20-25k... 4 years study...with work experience

Environmental health..starting salary 37,000 ....with work experience...4 years study....

wish i had of studied that course !! It prob would have been far more interesting too!!

damnyanks

Degree is irrelevant. Its what industry you go into. Don't know many people who didn't study IT (Assuming they studied) that end up in IT.

TempestSabre

mada999 wrote:

....
Environmental health..starting salary 37,000 ....with work experience...4 years study.......

How is it a starting graduate salary if it needs experience?

Would there be many Environmental health positions?

mada999

The environmental health course has 6 months work experience built in...just like my I.T degree....

true there are not many jobs for the en. health course...but if ya get one you are sorted...

WizZard

mada999 wrote:

true there are not many jobs for the en. health course...but if ya get one you are sorted...

One could also say that there are (relatively) not many great I.T. jobs, but if you get one, you're sorted

MrPudding

seamus wrote:

Yeah actually, I forgot to include that. I have yet to meet anyone who got an IT job via a recruitment agency.

I have gotten two IT jobs through agencies and I start my third in three weeks. But then we have never met so your statement holds true.

MrP

woolymammoth

leeroybrown wrote:

The jobs I refer to were advertised by all the usual methods.

Interesting then, that the Bank of Ireland Job Index Report (Nov 05, i know) claims that "Despite the strong pace of recruitment, there has been some sectoral decline compared to the corresponding month last year. The most significant fall was in the IT/Tech sector (-42%)..".

My guess is that over 60% of these statistics are 100% bullsh*t.

irishguy

Has anyone applied to the 15 or so IT graduate programs in ireland?
The people who i know in IT dont seem to have a problem finding jobs, From last years graduates here in LIT that i know 2 are working for AIBs IT dept, 2 are doing am MSc in UL, 5 are working for TATA consulting in India, only one guy that i know cant find a job and thats because he was away for the summer and has only started to apply for jobs sense December (i am sure there are guys that didnt get a job out of the couurse but i dont know them). Another guy i know who did IT&T in UL is in Dubai teaching computers (he got a pass degree). Also a friend of mine who graduated form UL in 2004 has just got offered a very good job with vmware another guy i know who graduated last year from Comp sys in UL got a Devlopment job with fineOS in Dublin.
I am graduating this year and have a number of interviews coming up in the next 2 months, so then i will be able to tell you how hard it is.

Also i know TATA are hiring 1000 software developers this year, mostly in India but in Ireland too. If you want to get experience you can go through Aiesec(student organisation) to get a job there, they are looking for graduates with a 2.2 or above but if you go through Aiesec you will only get paid Indian graduate wages but you will get experience in Software devlopment in a very large consultancy company

WizZard

irishguy wrote:

...you will only get paid Indian graduate wages ...

Which are?

MrPudding

I think 10 to 12K

MrP

irishguy

I know they are not good but they are guaranteed at a minimum to cover living expenses also you get the chance to travel and get very good development experience. I attached the job spec

TempestSabre

WizZard wrote:

One could also say that there are (relatively) not many great I.T. jobs, but if you get one, you're sorted

How can that be true, its currently one of the biggest employment sectors. Sheer size of the sector will mean there are a lot of great jobs in it. Especially if you've any experience and expertise. However outsourcing to other countries is shrinking the IT sector in Ireland, Europe and the US. Especially in the lower end for graduates and people starting out. Eventually the same shrinkage will creep up through the rest of the sector. Though there will always be a requirement for a certain level of IT in Ireland, eventually anything that is cheaper done elsewhere, will be done elsewhere.

However with the right skillset and experience there'll always be work in it, at decent wages.

irishguy

TempestSabre wrote:

How can that be true, its currently one of the biggest employment sectors. Sheer size of the sector will mean there are a lot of great jobs in it. Especially if you've any experience and expertise. However outsourcing to other countries is shrinking the IT sector in Ireland, Europe and the US. Especially in the lower end for graduates and people starting out. Eventually the same shrinkage will creep up through the rest of the sector. Though there will always be a requirement for a certain level of IT in Ireland, eventually anything that is cheaper done elsewhere, will be done elsewhere.

However with the right skillset and experience there'll always be work in it, at decent wages.

I saw a report recently that some IT jobs outsourced to Asia from the US were returned back to the US as they were not carried out to as high a quality as they were in the US.
Also i know that GE Financials IT department and a customer service Department were outsourced to India from the UK and they had to cancel the contracts as they were not carried out to the required level.
So maybe outsourcing won’t kill off the IT sector in Ireland, also there was another report saying that the Irish software industry developed applications and then customised them to each business customer, where as India specialised in writing one off software. So we don’t really compete now this was published by Enterprise Ireland so they might be just saying that to make things look good for the Irish software market

Supercell

The unskilled home user support is probably long gone from Ireland.

All that remains is the advanced user support for sans, nas etc.

I wonder how this is going to work out in the future, most highend support guys worked their way up..right now thats not an option.

Phone support at the high end is just going to get more and more expensive to the companies that made short term savings with their outsourcing.

I'm liking it !!

TempestSabre

Usually what happens if these jobs return they are at much lower salary and much worse conditions than before they were outsourced. While it has happened in a few places, outsourcing is still on the increase.

I think it forces people who are serious to upskill and become more professional about their career. Though you have to wonder about the wisdom of staying in it when you could probably do much better in another sector.

WizZard

TempestSabre wrote:

How can that be true, its currently one of the biggest employment sectors. Sheer size of the sector will mean there are a lot of great jobs in it. Especially if you've any experience and expertise. However outsourcing to other countries is shrinking the IT sector in Ireland, Europe and the US. Especially in the lower end for graduates and people starting out. Eventually the same shrinkage will creep up through the rest of the sector. Though there will always be a requirement for a certain level of IT in Ireland, eventually anything that is cheaper done elsewhere, will be done elsewhere.

However with the right skillset and experience there'll always be work in it, at decent wages.

My comment was a semi-sarcastic response to the previous poster. Check what I quoted and the context of the previous post. Hence the smiley :rolleyes:

lizzyrocker

TempestSabre wrote:

I think it forces people who are serious to upskill and become more professional about their career. Though you have to wonder about the wisdom of staying in it when you could probably do much better in another sector.

My thinking exactly. I'm thinking long term, can't imagine myself working in conditions like this for the next 40 years. I've been asking myself a lot of questions lately about continuing in I.T. for the rest of my career such as the following:

how many times over that time span do you think I'd get made redundant?, will I be able to get another job(Do I have proper experience/skills)?. Will there be jobs if i'm out of work (outsourcing)? When will I be too old to get another job?

Before someone replies to me about the obvious, I know these questions apply equally to all other sectors as well, its just that in I.T. I can't envisage myself holding down a job for much longer than 10 years at best without getting made redundant. IMO I.T. has to be one of the worst sectors for job security.

And although there are a lot of jobs in the sector, I personally I don't like the fact that you can only apply for a very small proportion of jobs based on the experience you've obtained, its too restrictive, and it doesn't bode well if you are in an area of work that you don't really like, without having to perform extensive retraining and then "hoping" you'll be able to get a position in a new field, its not worth the hassle IMO.

I've decided to get out, don't want to be worrying about this all my life. There are better sectors out there thats for sure.

I myself want something more stable with job security. I'm still young, there are other sectors I can work in. Looking towards the public sector (Garda/Civil Service etc) myself, hoping I'll be lucky enough to get a job there!!! I wonder does anyone else have a similar views?

muckwarrior

Ok here's my 2c.

I graduated from the same class as wes above. However as soon as i was finished college I took a job on the buildings as I had loans to pay back and just didn't have the luxury of waitin around for an IT job. Gave up the building's a couple of months ago to focus on finding an IT job. However as it was comin up to Christmas I didn't really look that hard tbh. Decided I could do with a break anyway.

So. Started lookin for a job in earnest 2-3 weeks ago. Lookin in the usual places like monster etc. There were literally hundreds of jobs available BUT at least 95% of these required minimum of a couple of years experience in the given field. Applied to a few and didn't even get a reply. So I looked up a few Web Development companies (as thats the area I wanted to get into) and sent them some speculative CV's.

Got a response from one of those companies on Monday. Did an interview this morning (my first one ever) and got offered a job this afternoon!

I must admit however that I was very lucky. It was very much a case of right place at the right time. They told me that they had just decided to hire a graduate when my CV landed in front of them

Well it wasn't all luck of course, I happened to posess the specific skills they required. I used my time off to redevelop some projects from college which I put online so that I could link to them in my CV. Also, apart from knowing both Java and .NET I mentioned that I was teaching myself PHP in my spare time, which was also a factor in me getting the job. So I think anyone else in a similar situation needs to take this approach. Don't just sit on your arse in between job hunting, try to upskill as much as possible and, where possible, show potential employers examples of what you can do. IMO this is much more valuable than just writing "I learned x, y, and z" on your CV.

All that said, I know it can still be incredibly difficult to get on that first rung, and I know some people still looking for a job. But as wes has said, the vast majority of our class seem to have found pretty damn good jobs, so if they can...

TempestSabre

WizZard wrote:

My comment was a semi-sarcastic response to the previous poster. Check what I quoted and the context of the previous post. Hence the smiley :rolleyes:

Too subtle for me LOL...:o

TempestSabre

lizzyrocker wrote:

...
I myself want something more stable with job security. I'm still young, there are other sectors I can work in. Looking towards the public sector (Garda/Civil Service etc) myself, hoping I'll be lucky enough to get a job there!!! I wonder does anyone else have a similar views?

Depends, how would being decentralised to the butt end of nowhere grab you?