Getting above the 37% Net usage plateau

damien

I'd like as many opinions and differing viewpoints on this as possible. Please provide solutions if you are going to contribute.

According to the figures from ComReg (which to be honest we rarely trust) Net usage in this country has stayed the same for the past few years. We can't seem to go above the 37% mark. This figure includes dialup, wet string, GPRS and broadband.

• Are the current figures correct or are they overlooking some crucial figures?
  
  
• What are the best methods to measure Net usage given that the CSO seems fairly slow when it comes to releasing new figures? (Ideally we need 6 monthly figures for benchmarking)
  
  
• What are the reasons for such a low number of people going online?
  
  
• How do we get more people online given that it is probably not down to just one issue. Cheaper computers, cheaper dialup/broadband, more computers in schools to encourage computer use at home etc
  
  
• What kind of projects could be started to investigate the suggested methods for encouraging net usage?
  
  
• What countries should we be looking at so we can copy what they did to get more people online?
  
  
• Any additional questions/thoughts?
  

cgarvey

damien.m wrote:

• What are the reasons for such a low number of people going online?

In my experience, price is still a big factor. There are 3 types of people. Those who want BB (and can/can't get it), those who have no interest in the Internet, and those who'd like to dabble in it, but can't because of cost.

We need low-rate dialup Internet access. "Less than a local call" is still intimidating to the parents who are struggling with bills as it is, and the kids want to spend a couple of hours a week on the net.

damien.m wrote:

• What are the best methods to measure Net usage given that the CSO seems fairly slow when it comes to releasing new figures? (Ideally we need 6 monthly figures for benchmarking)

Does this not have to involve the telcos? ISPs could only track username-based or callerID-based access, which not all dialup are. It's fine for BB, obviously. Whereas, telcos can view call details by customer and by 1892/1893 access, which would give us the number of people online, and the average length on line.

damien.m wrote:

• Any additional questions/thoughts?

Sort out the mess that is transferring calls/bb/dialup. Minimum contracts are a safety net to protect an ISP/telco investment. However they are anti-consumer and encourage an ISP/telco to not be as competitive as they should be. It's unfortunate that some ISPs/telcos do use minimum contracts as an investment protection, but it's also the reality. The only protection that makes any sense is to have a reliable sellable product. Dialup (internet or voice) transfers are software, so there should be no fee, and minimal time to allow for propegation of the new routing. Bitstream transfers should be instant. There is an engineer involved, so there'll have to be a cost, but if exchanges were only "done" every 2 weeks, then that cost should be low, and not the €30+VAT we see now. I don't think anyone would have any problem waiting 2 weeks for a zero-downtime transfer (unless there was a total failure with the current bitstream provider, but that's a different issue).

In general, just clean it all up .. it's a mess, and it's very much in favour of the incumbent which is, by definition, anti-consumer (and not just un-consumer-friendly).

damien

What about the fact that 50% of households have a computer. Even if every computer user at home went online that is still only half of the households in Ireland. Does more need to be done to encourage people to buy and use computers?

SeaSide

I think I remember a friend telling me that in Sweden the purchase of a home PC was tax deductable.

If the gov was to introduce this and relate it to the lower tax band (20%) they would still recover VAT at 21% so it is a zero sum game for them.

JohnC.

SeaSide wrote:

I think I remember a friend telling me that in Sweden the purchase of a home PC was tax deductable.

If the gov was to introduce this and relate it to the lower tax band (20%) they would still recover VAT at 21% so it is a zero sum game for them.

Wasn't there a proposal to do something like that here? I'm talking 10 years ago or more.

lucernarian

Kahless wrote:

Wasn't there a proposal to do something like that here? I'm talking 10 years ago or more.

That must be from an era when the Government did not take our competitiveness, our IT knowledge and our comms. infrastructure for granted. Complacency has set in big time. In one way I even wish that a large multinational left Ireland because of "no broadband to allow our employees access VPNs". It would be a slap in the face to the Gov and no mistake. They would do something about it then.

Anyway, the two big issues stopping people getting computers/the internet is the cost and parents' concerns over their children's welfare, anything from "its bad to be staring at a screen" to "my kid could meet a perv in a chatroom".
It seems that the primary issue is the amount of households without computers, a much larger figure than those with PCs but without the 'net, if ComReg is to be believed. Of course, it suits ComReg to have figures which point the figure mainly at something beyond their control.

There could be many people out there who see PCs and the 'net as going hand-in-hand and so will not buy computers because of the ongoing dial-up costs.

The sure-fire solution would be to provide cheap, unlimited flat-rate internet. It is a disgrace that ancient technology such as dial-up has not fallen in price in years meanwhile unlimited use broadband can be had for as little as €25 per month. That compares to €29.99 for 180 hours of dial-up with eircom. wtf??? I find that the most intolerable situation of the whole mess, how eircom have been allowed to get away with such virtual robbery. Low prices will not convince everyone to use the internet but it will help.

All IMO:)

Capt'n Midnight

Tax deductable PC's eh ?

This is the Govt that has introduced BIK if you use a company computer for non-work related purposes !

Most computers sold in Ireland are mostly made here or have components made here. The main move the Govt have done to encourage people to buy locally is to put a tax on credit cards so it's a little harder to buy abroad.

watty

And how many of the 50% actually have a modem or USB or Ethernet port?

How many are older than Win98SE?

Actually for a lot of people there is NO compelling reason to have a computer and for a lot of people no compelling reason to have Internet.

Though it seems we were ahead of UK on Car Tax renewal by Internet. I've been doing that for ages and it is only being launched nationwide there.

Most computers sold in Ireland are mostly made here or have components made here.

Unless most are Dells, no.

The main move the Govt have done to encourage people to buy locally is to put a tax on credit cards so it's a little harder to buy abroad.

Really?
I thought the only place you walk in with 1100 Euro cash to by a PC might be Lidl. Don't they tax cheque cards too?

SkepticOne

Best to concentrate on supply and not demand issues. Eircom have been saying all along that there is not enough demand and this sort of thread only plays into their hand. Lets not lose the plot here.

My understanding is that IOFFL was set up because broadband did not exist in Ireland. It still does not exist for many people.

If we change the goals of IOFFL, we can't then complain that the government and comreg are not listening to us.

SeaSide

SkepticOne wrote:

Best to concentrate on supply and not demand issues. Eircom have been saying all along that there is not enough demand and this sort of thread only plays into their hand. Lets not lose the plot here.

My understanding is that IOFFL was set up because broadband did not exist in Ireland. It still does not exist for many people.

If we change the goals of IOFFL, we can't then complain that the government and comreg are not listening to us.

Supply and Demand are both issues

robinph

I seem to remeber years ago hearing that the major boost in numbers of people having PC and getting online with them in the UK was when Freeserve/ Dixons came up with their service. I think we are already past the point where a service like that would be any good in Ireland htough as Freeserves main differences were that the calls were a bit cheaper than the likes of BT, but mostly that there was no montly contract that you had to sign up for.

I'd say that the only way to increase the 37% of people online is not with increasing broadband coverage as the majority of people that would make use of that will already be online anyway. But they do need to come up with cheaper dialup access packages though to get those that already have computers online or able to stay online longer for a reasonable price.

As for getting more than 50% of households to own a pc, that probably needs Tescos to start giving them away for stupid low prices with your shopping inorder to pursuade anyone that doesn't already own one.

JohnC.

Perhaps proper computer lessons in schools would also help. A lot of people don't want to buy one because "they are too complicated" or "I will only break it." And they see their kids as being in a similar position.

I'm only out of secondary school about 11 years and we never got any computer lessons. They are doing them now, but from what I hear from students in 3 schools, the lessons are pathetic and the teachers clueless (I know one of the teachers in question and it certainly is true in her case). If school kids get proper lessons, they are probably more likely to get a computer at home too.

Capt'n Midnight

watty wrote:

Unless most are Dells, no.
...
Really?
I thought the only place you walk in with 1100 Euro cash to by a PC might be Lidl. Don't they tax cheque cards too?

Intel make the odd chip or two, many other component manufacturers have manufacturer support centres here too. The point being that of a computer bought in Ireland a good proportion of it has benefited the irish economy in some small way and the Govt would benefit, even if only because more people being employed means less dole payments. It's an infrastructure thing. IMHO the NRA could justify investment in BB to facilitate teleworking, as a cheaper, greener way of providing enough roads by reducing the demand for them.

I've never known a bricks and mortar computer shop or the ESB / department stores to refuse cash - but yeah they also chage for ATM cards and Debit cards so I suppose they are just forcing people into a cash economy and then wondering why the black economy is so prevalant.

OfflerCrocGod

Kahless wrote:

I'm only out of secondary school about 11 years and we never got any computer lessons. They are doing them now, but from what I hear from students in 3 schools, the lessons are pathetic and the teachers clueless (I know one of the teachers in question and it certainly is true in her case). If school kids get proper lessons, they are probably more likely to get a computer at home too.

Indeed 5 years of secondary school should be plenty of time to teach kids their way around PCs - what we have in our schools is pathetic, I knew more then the "teacher".

watty

When I taught a Computer module in a Business College to wannabe secretaries, the ones that had lessons in school were worse than the total newcommers to PC.

Again the current BB scheme for schools does not address what the computers are for and how they should be taught in schools.

They should buy all the teachers laptops and send all of them on DECENT courses first (many PC courses are tours of Marketing dept brochure of the packages confusing people will loads of features they will never use. Courses need to be less specific to features of a particular package (e.g. Autocad) and more specific to the task (e.g. technical drawing).)

Then it would be time to put PCs in class rooms.

Sponge Bob

we wont know for sure for another year but see this years census form (April 2006 census) PAGE 2

http://www.cso.ie/census/documents/censusform_2006.pdf

eircomtribunal

damien.m wrote:

• Are the current figures correct or are they overlooking some crucial figures?
  
  
• What are the best methods to measure Net usage given that the CSO seems fairly slow when it comes to releasing new figures? (Ideally we need 6 monthly figures for benchmarking)

Those below 40% figures are correct. (Since Nielsen have stopped to survey Ireland we no longer see how long those 36% spend online but I'd guess it would not be a nice figure compared with other countries.)

• What are the reasons for such a low number of people going online?
  
  
• How do we get more people online given that it is probably not down to just one issue. Cheaper computers, cheaper dialup/broadband, more computers in schools to encourage computer use at home etc
  
  
• What kind of projects could be started to investigate the suggested methods for encouraging net usage?
  
  
• What countries should we be looking at so we can copy what they did to get more people online?
  
  
• Any additional questions/thoughts?
  

No need to look at such a range of diverse and confusing issues. The simple fact is that Ireland would be up in Internet usage with the top of Europe for many obvious reasons (English language the most important one, young population, high gaming percentage, good educational system), if it was not for one primary handicap:
Paddy and Mary have been and are still priced out of using the Internet. See our old 2002 calculator, it is still valid, although is may be out of tune with off-peak/peak time.

There is nothing wrong with secondary measures (tax, curriculum, content provision, adult education etc.), but they should not be muddled into discussing the prime reason and removing the prime handicap. (Of course now that we have – compared to our EU neighbours – become an Internet illiterate country, more of those ancillary measures will be needed to try to compensate.)
All experience in other countries shows that Internet usage, if enabled at reasonable cost, is a self-propelling thing.

It is pathetic that in 2006, when dial-up is already moribund, we have still to lobby for affordable flat-rate dial-up. We are late, oh so late, but it is still necessary. Introducing it at a nominal cost to lines that are not bb enabled seems one of the most effective and easiest to achieve measures that could be undertaken on this front.

P.

AndrewMc

damien.m wrote:

• What are the reasons for such a low number of people going online?
  
  
• How do we get more people online given that it is probably not down to just one issue. Cheaper computers, cheaper dialup/broadband, more computers in schools to encourage computer use at home etc

If PC ownership is around 50%, then that's one quarter of the potential home Internet userbase not bothering, which I think is a lot. That's also quite close to the proportion of people who've opted out of Europe's highest line rental, but maybe that's a coincidence...

Suggestion: Cut the cost of phone line ownership. People ditching phone lines (which could be their only Internet access option in the first place) is not helping.

There's still a huge number of people who could only get dial-up, but nobody's marketing to them. A few years ago they were giving out dial-up CDs on every street corner, but now it's back to find-a-friend-who-knows-how. And, as others have said, people are often struggling with phone bills as it is without adding massive call charges to it. The other dial-up gotcha, losing your voice phone during dial-up, still annoys people too. How many people have heard "I was trying to ring you for the last hour", followed by "oh, Billy was on the Internet - I'll have to stop him doing that".

Suggestion: Help people get online, with dial-up if necessary. Cut the per-minute cost, and get flat-rate done properly, and cheap. For God's sake, it shouldn't cost the same or more as broadband... Compensate people (preferably with a line-rental cut) if their phone line can't take broadband, since they're not getting the same level of service. The line-rent cut would also encourage some investment in the network, ahem.

I don't think computer education in schools would help push up PC ownership as much as computer education for adults. 12 year-olds don't generally have that sort of cash.

Suggestion: Education for adults. Don't know much about this area, but "read write now" was popular on TV for basic literacy. Fund and promote these things.

I'd also expect few people see the benefit of Internet usage at home anyway (at least when purchase and Internet access costs are considered). I work heavily in computers, have a fixed-hours dial-up package (won't call it flat rate) and I've still only bothered up dialling up twice this year so far, for about an hour each. I have decent Internet access in work, which makes me even less tolerant of dial-up. Useful (as opposed to entertainment) services available on-line for Irish people are pretty minimal. Government services are barely much more than "download this PDF and post it back to us". Booking flights or tickets is about the only other thing I've used at home, and most people will just do that over the phone rather than buy a PC.

Suggestion: Get the government off its arse on Internet services. Revenue seem to be the furthest advanced, but the government was never slow to help you pay tax . Why can't I apply for a driving theory test online, for example? If the government doesn't really use the Internet to do Useful Stuff, why would people believe them that Useful Stuff can be done?

Another problem with telecoms in general is people's fear of changing provider. Encourage it, but at the same time beat up providers who make a mess of it. I've changed voice provider about a year ago now, but still pay line rental separately.

That's kind of half-rant, half-ideas, but there you go

bk

There are three reasons why people don't get internet/bb.

1) Can't afford it
2) Can't get it
3) Don't want it

1) Can't aford it

Up to now entry level BB has been €40 for most people. That is very much luxury product pricing, along with the €24 line rental and high telephone call charges, it is simply too much for most people to even consider.

Now in fairness to Eircom the new 1m entry level product for ~€25 and time based for ~€15 should go an awful long way to solving this problem, I think we will see a massive take up of these products.

However having said that I think that the price of BB + line rental is still too high for many people. I look forward to see what BT offer in this front.

The other major problem is that the flat rate dial-up products are too expensive for most people, there hasn't been any drop in these prices in the last three years, this simply isn't good enough. Also the ISP's aren't advertising these products so most people don't know they exist.

2) Can't get it

Many people still simply can't get BB. We need much better availability to help boost take up.

Now you might say "how does that effect internet take-up (including dial-up)?"
I believe many people just can't stand the slow, unstable speeds of dial-up along with the high costs of it. Many people have access to relatively fast internet acces at work, school, university, etc. and they just can't face using slow dial-up at home.

I believe with the wider availability of cheaper BB at home then more people will take up internet access.

Of course cheaper friaco and better advertising of it would greatly help.

3) Don't want it.

There isn't much we can do about this, I believe that this problem will quickly solve itself over the next few years. As more people get BB as the above two problems are solved, then they will show it to there friends, etc. and therefore drive want.

I believe that the online gaming capabilites of the Xbox360, PS3, PSP, Nintendo DS, etc. will really drive uptake, along with VoD services.

Also improved government services will help drive want, along with improved online shopping sites specifically targeted at Ireland.

About government services, I most say that the government has been doing a good job and is actually recognised as a world leader of e-services.

As for tax breaks for purchasing PC's, I don't believe it would make much of a difference, you can now buy a PC from Dell for just €450, never mind the bargain basement cost of second hand PC's (which can still be very good for email/internet). This is just a fraction of the cost of buying a PC 5 years ago. So I don't think the cost of buying a PC has anything to do with low PC uptake. Perhaps a tax break for people on social welfare might help.

The reasons for the low uptake of PC's is:
1) Nothing to do with it - because they can't get or afford BB and have no other use for a PC.
2) Fear of the problems with administrating a PC.
3) Fear of the kids doing bad stuff on the net.
4) Not wanting a PC to take up a lot of space in their shiny new home.

In fact I believe the rise of cheap laptops has gone / will go a long way to boost uptake as people like them as they can easily keep them out of the way when not in use.

BTW IT in Irish schools is simply brutal, I'm currently in Prague and they not only teach IT in school, they teach programming, we are so screwed.

So in summary, in order to improve internet uptake we need to continue do what we are doing.

1) Improve affordability by driving competition by improving LLU and supporting other alternative BB paltforms such as wireless and cable.

2) We are quickly coming close to the stage where we need the government to spend money to get 100% avialabilty, like up in the north. Of course this is a whole discussion of its own.

3) FRIACO prices must be dropped and it needs to be more heavily advertised.

4) Once we have lower prices and wider availability, then an ad campaign by the government showing the benefit of BB (egovernment, online shopping, gaming, etc.) might help drive some interest. But it certainly isn't the most important factor.

OfflerCrocGod

bk wrote:

BTW IT in Irish schools is simply brutal, I'm currently in Prague and they not only teach IT in school, they teach programming, we are so screwed.

That is EXACTLY what I'd love to see happen in this country - 5 years of secondary school would be enough to have students knowledgeable in at least one major programming language and highly PC literate.

Solair

1) Poor marketing of ISP products. None of our major ISPs do a good job of marketing their products. Eircom, to be fair, is sort of trying with the latest broadband ads. BT Ireland's ads are pathetic and low impact compared to their UK parent, as for the rest... poor / geeky / unintelligable ads that miss the point completely. None of the ISPs offer what I would term a consumer product.

2) Lack of services / "killer aps". Apart from Ryanair.com, what attracts Irish users to the net? Everything either launches late or doesn't happen here. Ordering via the uk is price, slow etc.
Positives: iTunes, Xbox live etc

3) Transaction services.
a) Lack of credit cards, partially due to a government imposed card levy!!
b) Incompatable debit card scheme. Laser cards don't work outside Ireland and even Laser/Masestro cobranded cards are rarely accepted online by UK sites accepting Maestro. The Irish banks, should at the very least ensure that Maestro/Laser co-branded cards are compatable with the UK debit card system! Laser ought to be phased out in favour of Maestro/Visa debit as a matter of urgency. At the very least ALL banks should offer Mastercard (Maestro) or Visa Debit products that work internationally either with or as an alternative to Laser.
c) Lack of postal codes has hindered address verification and makes UK, US and other international sites refuse Irish cards / delivery addresses all too frequently.

4) Fear:
a) Legacy of scary prices has left a bad taste in the mouths of many consumers. People still assume the net costs a fortune and is charged per min. Many people don't understand that prices have fallen and remember horror stories of £1000 phone bills.
b) Internet preditors, child porn, porn and other unsavory aspects of the internet are frequently highlighted in the media while the positive uses of the net go unpromoted. This has lead to a fear of the net in many homes. Irish ISPs have done little to provide family-friendly products. Where they have, e.g. eircom.net, they have failed to promote it. We need a family oriented ISP like AOL.

5) Lack of access / percieved lack of access:
Broadband has been anything but easy to set up. Long lead-in times, lack of availability, lines failing etc has lead to an impression that subscribing to an ISP is a huge pain in the backside. ISPs need to streamline their sales/setup process and advertise the fact that its easy.

Many people will just assume it's unavailable / go "why bother"...
Very few people would have time or the patience to deal with the likes of BT Ireland when things go wrong. They took over 2 months to connect my broadband and it took extreme pestering and persistance to get it hooked up.

Again, this sort of nonsense just gives the product and industry a bad name.

Iron out all of the above and demand MIGHT rise.

Blaster99

Instead of speculating why people don't sign up for broadband or use the internet at all, has this not been covered in surveys by ComReg or similar? That would seem a fairly useful question to ask to get some basic understanding of usage and non-usage patterns.

SkepticOne

But the ComReg figures are rarely trusted.

bk

SkepticOne wrote:

But the ComReg figures are rarely trusted.

Our own IOFFL survey clearly shows that price and availability are still the major factors.

However Solair's post above is excellent, it explains a lot of the fears and problems of the "late majority" and "laggards categories" of product adopters. However we are still in the "innovators/early adopters" phase and I believe we are will only start to enter the "early majority" category this year and for these sor of people, ease of availability, setup, use and cheap price are the most important aspects.

It is interesting to note that the biggest and most difficult step (the chasm) is moving from the "early adopter" stage to the "early majority" (pragmatist) stage. These people are usually very difficult to convince to use new technology abd they want it to be just simple and just work. They can't stand problems, bugs, delays or difficulty in general. However when you do succussfully break into this category it tends to create a snow ball effect, all categories start using the technology and your technology becomes a defacto standard (see mobile phones, DVD's, etc.).

Blaster99

If I'm not mistaken, this thread is not about BB takeup, it's about internet usage including dialup. Just a wild guess, but a survey hosted on the internet is not likely to be particularly useful when it comes to understanding why people don't use the internet. And that wasn't the purpose of the IOFFL survey of coruse.

So... has ComReg done a survey about this?

damien

Correct on all counts Blaster99, as for ComReg, no, no survey was done to specifically address this. In past ComReg surveys, there were some questions asked of those not using the net but the questions and the results were far from transparent. Also as we have highlighted before, ComReg doesn't publish the raw data.

It would be interesting to do a non-online survey but I doubt we have the expertise or the resources to readily poll about 1000 people. Of course, if someone has a suggestion on how to do it, let us know.

Sponge Bob

damien.m wrote:

It would be interesting to do a non-online survey but I doubt we have the expertise or the resources to readily poll about 1000 people. Of course, if someone has a suggestion on how to do it, let us know.

I recall other surveys (ask me not for links but they have been discussed here in the past 6 months) that indicated that only c.60% of Irish people were in any ways interested in using the internet.

37 out of 60 means that over 60% of those who would use it actually do use it .

PC penetration in households, depending on your interpretation of the wording of the question in the 2006 census (see my earlier post above) and whether it includes company laptops that come home every evening ( I say it does because the wording in the new census does not appear to insist the household owns the computer unlike previous census forms and household budget surveys in the interim ) meaning PC penetration is offiially above 50% now and has certainly grown by around 4% of all households each year for the past 5 years if not longer . Therefore the number of those who would connect and who have a PC (never mind a playstation with network port) is probably around enough 50 out of 60 or 86% .

Nor is the question asked of that 40% with 'no interest' in the internet as to whether they tried it (on a pairgained line say) and found it unusable ??? Is there a rump within that 40% who have no interest because they know they cannot connect to the internet . We have no information on the number of home users who tried and had a bad experience and therefore would not bother again.

Very few home pcs now run a Pre Windows 98 OS so they can support USB if not Network were they to try to get hooked up.

Finally, its normally possible to get a bog standard entry level Dell for around €350 all in , I have frequently specced them out and know that they are generally there .

€350 for an OK PC with 17" monitor and delivery and os is feck all , come on ! Whatever else about Dell they normally have an ultra cheap low spec celeron for sale with built in network and usb , modem costs €20 if not included.

jwt

Given that a typical mobile costs 400-500 euro before subsidies, could an ISP do similar for a PC, an use the Tesco/Dunnes/Iqon model of charging 1.50 per minute on support calls to cover support and some of thecost?

Its how the mobile market went boom.


John

watty

jwt wrote:

Given that a typical mobile costs 400-500 euro before subsidies, could an ISP do similar for a PC, an use the Tesco/Dunnes/Iqon model of charging 1.50 per minute on support calls to cover support and some of thecost?

Its how the mobile market went boom.


John

The modile phone are practially free because of HUGE per second call charges.

If mobile call charges were reasonable folk would have to buy their own phones. A better solution.

There is NO bill pay mobile service in sense of gas, electricity or land lines. You sign up to be charged monthly (smallest 20 Euro, typical 60 Euro?) if you don't use all your minutes then the Telco is making more money, if you go over you pay even more. Some call this post pay. But arn't you paying for a month in advance too?

I have the random "pay as you go". It works out between 2 Euro to 15 Euro a month.

After dialup internet and eircom's fixed line rental charge, mobile phones are the next biggest rip off.

I'd rate propane/butane gas next:
* Only Calor and Flogas
* Same prices everywhere
* retail much higher than "contract" direct
* terrible service

The Telecoms/Eircom/Mobile phones is not untypical. Ireland as a Nation is run in interests of the haves (SSIA only benefited those already well off as does Section 23 ), Monopolies and Cartels.

Regulation of EVERY field in this country is Mad. Don't blame Comreg. It's the politicians and the brown envelopes.

damien

School's performance is also a telling factor:

http://www.rte.ie/news/2006/0124/computers.html

The study found that around 90% of Irish students have access to computers at school. But only 25% of Irish students say they use a computer in school regularly, compared to around 70% in the UK.

It was also found that Ireland is among a group of countries which show the least positive attitudes among students towards computers.

More details here:
http://www.oecd.org/document/17/0,2340,en_2649_201185_35992849_1_1_1_1,00.html

Sarsfield

There was an article in the Sunday Business Post (can't find a link and the paper is gone for recycling) in which Adrian Weckler reports that despite UK costs and UK availability (basically 100%), broadband takeup in NI is as bad as, if not worse than, down here.

Maybe we Irish just aren't interested? Maybe we prefer watching sports on satellite telly and texting our mates to streaming video and email? So suggests Adrian.

eircomtribunal

Sarsfield wrote:

There was an article in the Sunday Business Post (can't find a link and the paper is gone for recycling) in which Adrian Weckler reports that despite UK costs and UK availability (basically 100%), broadband takeup in NI is as bad as, if not worse than, down here.

Have a look at the very recent UK broadband map from analysts point topic to see for yourself.

P.

OfflerCrocGod

eircomtribunal wrote:

Have a look at the very recent UK broadband map from analysts point topic to see for yourself.

P.

That's useful eircomtribunal; how about just telling us without making us register?

damien

Sarsfield wrote:

There was an article in the Sunday Business Post (can't find a link and the paper is gone for recycling) in which Adrian Weckler reports that despite UK costs and UK availability (basically 100%), broadband takeup in NI is as bad as, if not worse than, down here.

There was a report about takeup in NI and it was actually much higher than here I believe. Must try and find it. Someone with the same writing style as Weckler also wrote an anon piece about BT in the same paper bitching about all their name changes. They must have messed up a nill of his ages back as I don't think he's a fan.

eircomtribunal

OfflerCrocGod wrote:

That's useful eircomtribunal; how about just telling us without making us register?

Sorry, my mistake.

New results show a deeper ‘Digital Divide’
18 January 2006
Point Topic analysis of broadband take-up

The broadband ‘Digital Divide’ – the gap between the haves and have-nots – is deeper than was thought and may be getting even deeper. This is one conclusion of new research from Point Topic based on detailed mapping of broadband density, right down to the postcode level (Figure 1).
All the ‘Top Ten’ Local Authority areas with the highest broadband density are in London and the home counties (Figure 2). The ten with the lowest density are in the rural areas of Scotland, Northern Ireland and Wales – plus West Somerset, which includes the wide open spaces of Exmoor.
The figures show density in terms of the number of broadband lines per 100 population as at mid-2005. They include both DSL lines provided over BT’s network and cable modem connections supplied by the cable TV networks. Household density is highest in prosperous suburban areas but business use drives the total up higher in areas like Westminster and Tower Hamlets.
Thus the ‘Top Ten’ range from 25 broadband lines per 100 people in Wandsworth, south London, to 20 in South Buckinghamshire. Low density areas include Dumfries and Galloway, with 6.3 lines per 100 down to Eilean Siar (the Western Isles) with 4.9. (These figures exclude one of the UKs smallest local authorities, the City of London, which has a very high density because of business use.)
Point Topic’s earlier analysis suggested that some areas outside the South East – for example in the prosperous areas of South Wales – were up among the leaders for broadband density. This was particularly due to the success of the cable companies in selling broadband to their existing customers.
Several factors have now changed this view. DSL is growing faster than cable modems which is reducing the advantage of the cable TV areas. Point Topic’s consumer research, based on 2,000 face-to-face interviews, showed that broadband density for poorer families is lower than had been assumed.
Most important of all, the publication of DSL numbers for different regions by BT has showed that there are big differences in density between different parts of the country which are independent of social factors or cable competition. Rural areas often have lower density than the suburbs even where broadband is equally available. Some parts of the country, such as Yorkshire, Lincolnshire and the North-east of England, just seem to have less interest in the Internet than others.
As far as Internet density as a whole is concerned, the ‘Digital Divide’is less deep than it is for broadband only, but follows the same pattern. As more and more families migrate from dial-up to broadband, having Internet access will become increasingly the same thing as having broadband
The Labour Government is committed to eliminating the divide, making sure that “the whole of society can experience the benefits of the Internet.” One key step is to make the means getting online available to all, so one promise in its Election Manifesto was "By 2006 every school supported to offer all pupils access to computers at home."
The results of Point Topic’s research show there is a long way to go to achieve the goal of Internet access for all. Britain’s most advanced boroughs are already around the density levels achieved by the most advanced nations – such as South Korea, the Netherlands and Denmark. Overcoming the Digital Divide will mean bringing the whole country up to that level, and higher.
Fig. 1 - Broadband density by Local Authority *

P.

eircomtribunal

Dave Burstein of the excellent dslprime newsletter mentions Ireland, which he never did before, (congrats Tommy):

Ireland: North 100%, South 70%
Taoiseach Bertie Ahern too close to Eircom
Irish Labor Party spokesman Tommy Broughan holds the government responsible for lagging broadband. ““I think the achievement of Northern Ireland puts the Republic of Ireland to shame, in terms of Broadband. Northern Ireland … has now enabled all of Northern Ireland, both rural and urban areas, whereas in the Republic we still have, perhaps, less than 70% broadband enabled. People living in even the most rural parts of counties Tyrone and Antrim will have access to broadband yet many businesses and householders in areas of Dublin, Cork, Limerick or Galway do not.”

Ireland has long been the laggard in broadband, with prices twice as high as most of Europe and a minimal take rate. Eircom until recently had a virtual monopoly and a weak regulator. Since dial-up access paid by the minute and was enormously profitable, every user who switched to broadband at a reasonable price cost Eircom money. During this period, Tony O’Reilly and friends made hundreds of millions privatizing Eircom and then with an IPO. Meanwhile, the ruling party held back regulation for several years. Prospects are brighter now, with several builds moving forward and the rural areas put in fiber backbones.

The 100% Northern Ireland coverage is only slightly ahead of the 97-98% throughout the U.K. BT has been very effective at getting government money for rural development in return for filling in the last few areas.

P.

Sarsfield

My reading of that map is that despite 100% availability, takeup of bb in Northern Ireland is dismal, apart from downtown Belfast.

Maybe Weckler is right.

Capt'n Midnight

The figures show density in terms of the number of broadband lines per 100 population as at mid-2005. They include both DSL lines provided over BT’s network and cable modem connections supplied by the cable TV networks.

8.9/100 is the lowest (white) colour on the map.

For a population of 3,917,203 this translates as 348,631 broadband connections..

How many do we have ??

http://www.cso.ie/statistics/popofeachprovcountycity2002.htm - by county if anyone has BB line numbers on a regional basis.

Sarsfield

Capt'n Midnight wrote:

8.9/100 is the lowest (white) colour on the map.

For a population of 3,917,203 this translates as 348,631 broadband connections..

How many do we have ??

http://www.cso.ie/statistics/popofeachprovcountycity2002.htm - by county if anyone has BB line numbers on a regional basis.

The lightest colour is 0.4% to 8.9% is it not? So for a population of 3,917,203 this could translate to anything between 348,631 at best to just 15,669! I'm sure we have more than 15,669 broadband customers at this stage.

eircomtribunal

Point Topic's grading of the map is unfortunate. The mention of the low density in some areas [Thus the ‘Top Ten’ range from 25 broadband lines per 100 people in Wandsworth, south London, to 20 in South Buckinghamshire. Low density areas include Dumfries and Galloway, with 6.3 lines per 100 down to Eilean Siar (the Western Isles) with 4.9.] in the accompanying text seems to indicate that NI is rather higher, or nearer to 8.9 per hundred.
Overall though the map seems to confirm the assumption that NI is rather slow with take-up compared to the rest of the UK, despite the 100% bb availability.
Exact figures of bb numbers in NI should be obtainable somewhere.
P.

eircomtribunal

The map is not giving the correct impression:
By the end of 2004 there were already 150 000 broadband subscribers in NI (see http://www.theregister.co.uk/2005/02/25/ni_broadband_coverage/ for example), which gives it an overall "density" (as Point Topic likes to call the bb penetration rate = bb connections per 100 inhabitants) of 10, or 10 percent.
The ROI had at this stage an overall figure of some 4 for bb penetration.

So, the darker segments in the map, which look small as an area, make up by much bigger numbers of connections.
P.

bealtine

eircomtribunal wrote:

(see http://www.theregister.co.uk/2005/02/25/ni_broadband_coverage/

The most interesting quote (imho) from that piece is
"Demand for broadband in Northern Ireland has increased dramatically as exchanges have gone live. In just 12 months, the region has moved from having one of the lowest levels of broadband uptake in the UK to becoming the fastest growing area. The latest industry figures show 150,000 broadband users and demand is still growing."


This clearly shows that if broadband is available then there wil be a demand for it unlike the limbo situation that exists here : low countrywide availability and patchy "coverage" within enabled areas.

These issues will need to be addressed before we can move to "demand stimulation".
If the existing demand cannot be met then what's the point of "demand stimulation", if most people who demand bb can't already get it?

The people who live within enabled areas and cannot get broadband are some of the forgotten consumers.

I know of situations where estates are enabled but only in only a few houses have lines that are "suitable". They are all on exactly the same cables and are all less that 3 to 4 km from the exchange.
I also happen to know that the denamd for broadband is these estates is fairly high. Yet it seems to be a "lotto" as to whether people can actually get it. Cheap and nasty cables are (mostly) the cause.

It is my opinion that those within enabled areas should get broadband and everything should be done to supply these forgotten and ignored consumers. If simple basic standards and incentives (for instance : no profiteering on dialup) were put in place by Comreg and the government this situation would be resolved very very quickly and demand and takeup would increase dramatically. Then, and only then, can we move to the "demand stimulation" phase. Attempting to stimulate demand at this stage while existing demand cannot be met will only lead to frustration on the part of consumers.

Then of course there are the last few hundred exchanges also.

cgarvey

That gets my post of the month nomination anyway.

watty

Was at a kind of BT / IEE sponserd lecture tonight on Network Planning, The guy talked about use of Wireless Broadband in Rural areas to meet 100% mandatory coverage in N.I.

So why is 100% coverage not mandatory on operators here?

cgarvey

because they haven't been funded .. BT UK got funding to get to the 100% in the north, and eircom have been looking for the same here. What I don't know is what the percentage of availability was in the north before government funding.

I think broadband should be in the USO (and therefore 100%, none of this pretend 'universal' ComReg recently introduced), but it's unrealistic to expect this to happen soon, and even less unrealistic to expect it to happen within a few years without funding. If eircom are to get funding, there should be strict restrictions including proper automated LLU from day 1, with no lack of space/air-con excuses.

My €0.02

.cg

zuma

I would personially not like to see eircom be payed with my Taxes to enable exchanges by governmentst request.

It should be put up to tender and share the "burden" among BT/Smart/others but NOT eircom alone by any means!

Sponge Bob

watty wrote:

So why is 100% coverage not mandatory on operators here?

aw phew Watty, what a question :eek: Its not legally/regulatory mandatory in NI but BT chose to tender to make it so, receive about €25m of government cash and signed a contract and then it became contractually mandatory for them to deliver.

I suspect they can use still use scum VSAT in National Parks like Mourne/Antrim Plateau but must deploy DSL or wireless to 100% of all households in the rest of NI. People in the south have even gotten BT wireless by dint of getting someone in the north to apply and install and then shifting the aerial / cpu of an evening .

watty

Hmm. I'm a bit far from my Northern relatives...

zuma wrote:

would personially not like to see eircom be payed with my Taxes to enable exchanges by governmentst request.

It should be put up to tender and share the "burden" among BT/Smart/others but NOT eircom alone by any means!

INDEED!