Traditional Martial Arts Vs Mixed Martial Arts

ninjawitatitude

Hello all,
I think we can all agree that we have a favorite style or system and that it works for us, and that we enjoy it. But can't we all just act like adults and stop every thread devolving into MMA is better than TMA or the other way around. We could actually get some intresting stuff covered and we might all learn something new.
Let's be honest, no one is going to talk anyone out of belief for their system with a couple of crass comments, they will in fact start another pointless row in which we all quote our favourite lines as for for why our system works for us.

So, we can either stay in the sandpit, saying "my daddy is bigger than your daddy" and calling each other names, or we can get over ourselves and talk about the one thing we all have in common. Who knows we might even become friends and get to train in each others styles.

Gambatte

Cake Fiend

Might as well bang your head off a brick wall mate, there'll always be people who'll degrade threads into mine vs. yours bashing . Just like SNES vs. Megadrive, Spiderman vs. Superman, PC vs. Mac, two wheels vs. four... I think it's built into us.

vasch_ro

Sico wrote:

Might as well bang your head off a brick wall mate, there'll always be people who'll degrade threads into mine vs. yours bashing . Just like SNES vs. Megadrive, Spiderman vs. Superman, PC vs. Mac, two wheels vs. four... I think it's built into us.

everyone knows spidey would kick supermans ass any day of the week !:D

blondie83

Gambatte tis good to see another Japanese style student here! As for TMA v MMA...whichever you enjoy most!

ninjawitatitude

Oops.

pma-ire

vasch_ro wrote:

everyone knows spidey would kick supermans ass any day of the week !:D

You know Batman is the man!!

No super or mutant powers and still able to take them all on!!

Ninja trained aswell

Musashi

Who knows we might even become friends and get to train in each others styles.

Some of the lads have met for the "Meet and Train" up in Duberlin, others know each other from Seminars and stuff. Some do go try out each others styles and take bits back for their own training I'm hoping to do a few seminars this year to add to my own understanding of all the ranges and training techniques on offer. Why stick to what you already know? Always trying to learn and stretch yourself is the only way to go.

loz

ninjawitatitude wrote:

Hello all,
train in each others styles.

Gambatte

Hi,

I think quote a few of us here already cross train from our main style. I'm TKD but also train submission-wrestling/grappling. ( not that i'm very good mind ! )

Most of us who attend/have attended the meets are aware of other styles, the limitations of some, and thus appreciate the benifits of cross training.


Loz

Gaillimhtaibhse

When spiderman, superman, and batman comes home, who do you think tells them to take out the garbage?;)

Michael O Leary

ninjawitatitude wrote:

Hello all,
I think we can all agree that we have a favorite style or system and that it works for us, and that we enjoy it. But can't we all just act like adults and stop every thread devolving into MMA is better than TMA or the other way around. We could actually get some intresting stuff covered and we might all learn something new.
Let's be honest, no one is going to talk anyone out of belief for their system with a couple of crass comments, they will in fact start another pointless row in which we all quote our favourite lines as for for why our system works for us.

So, we can either stay in the sandpit, saying "my daddy is bigger than your daddy" and calling each other names, or we can get over ourselves and talk about the one thing we all have in common. Who knows we might even become friends and get to train in each others styles.

Gambatte

You are like a breath of fresh air mate.

Michael O'Leary
www.wingtsun-escrima.ie

pma-ire

Gaillimhtaibhse wrote:

When spiderman, superman, and batman comes home, who do you think tells them to take out the garbage?;)

I don't know about the other losers?

But Batman has Alfred to do that kind stuff

damo

My daddy is bigger than your daddy.

Dragan

Of course he is!!!

My Daddy is only a welterweight!

memphis

Batman is the bomb guys. A crazy side kick, Alfred to clean up after him, girls dropping at his feet, and a damn cool car!! He'd kick superman and spidermans ass anyday!! hahaha!!

On a serious note, unfortunately there has long been a divide between TMA and MMA here. And your right OP, it would be nice if we could all get on and agree on things, and learn from others. I'm all for cross training a bring back your finding into your own art.

What I object to is the continous bickering such as "My Art is better than yours" and the like!!

Cabelo

How come so many peeps are pro cross-training yet so few showed up to the last meet?

vasch_ro

Gaillimhtaibhse wrote:

When spiderman, superman, and batman comes home, who do you think tells them to take out the garbage?;)

well in spidermans case I guess it would be Aunt May ?

ninjawitatitude

So we're agreed then,

MMA and TMA use different methods but are both important in their own right.

Cross training is essential if we want to improve.

Whatever has happened in the past should stay there and we should move forward together as one strong community looking to improve ourselves before others.

My style is better than your style arguments are best left for snot nose kids in the playground.

Damo's daddy is bigger than our daddy.

And Batman is the greatest hero ever, including Jesus.

Fantastic guys. Well done everyone.


Gambatte

Scramble

My style is better than your style arguments are best left for snot nose kids in the playground.

I agree with this in spirit. If the character of a discussion is basically about one-upmanship and ego rather than the points being discussed, then it is poor form.

However, equally there's no reason not to make comparisons on the forum between different training methods and approaches. I don't see a problem with this: Surely most of us are glad to have the chance to discuss the rationale behind the way we choose to train, and get other opinions and new perspectives. The trick is not to have an emotional reaction when someone coming from a different school of though doesn't accept that your training method 'X' is the best thing since sliced bread.

I don't really accept the argument that people commonly fall back on when they don't want to do have this discussion i.e "All arts are good, its the man not the art" or "All arts have their place". I often get the impression that what is really going on is that people want to avoid having to provide an empirical basis for some of the things about the way they train that they accept uncritically. Why would they do this: Probably because its hard not to spend years doing something and not build up an emotional investment in it.

ninjawitatitude

Some very intresting points raised there bro,

Scramble wrote:

However, equally there's no reason not to make comparisons on the forum between different training methods and approaches.

Absolutely, this is the only way to devlop, both our art and personally.

Scramble wrote:

The trick is not to have an emotional reaction when someone coming from a different school of thought doesn't accept that your training method 'X' is the best thing since sliced bread.

Indeed. We should all remember that we are discussing arts and not people. If I don't find your art appealing, it doesn't mean I think any less of you.

Scramble wrote:

I don't really accept the argument that people commonly fall back on when they don't want to do have this discussion i.e "All arts are good, its the man not the art" or "All arts have their place". I often get the impression that what is really going on is that people want to avoid having to provide an empirical basis for some of the things about the way they train that they accept uncritically.

This is true but a lot of people train for reasons other than self defence. Fitness, fun, flexibility, the social aspect or whatever. If a persons requirements are met then, I think, that art has it's place. Also, I think, that some people can become a little intimidated when asked to justify something that they haven't worked out the arguments for or against. Paricularly if they just enjoy the training and don't really care why.

Scramble wrote:

Why would they do this: Probably because its hard not to spend years doing something and not build up an emotional investment in it.

Nail on the head mate. Human beahvior, territoriallity, whatever you want to call it.

Thanks for the insightful feed back scramble.

Gambatte

Colm_OReilly

Well said Scramble

memphis

A few interesting point being thrown about above, some of which I have to totally agree with.

Its nice to compare and contrast arts, clubs, and styles, but once critcism is not targeted at a personal level! I think saying its about the aqrt and not the person would be a good rule of thumb!

I also strongly agree when ninjawitattutde says that persons are not always in MA for self defence purposes, or for want of being a fighter. I'm doing TKD simply because I wanted to take up a past time. It just so happens that I enjoyed, it stuck at it, gained from it both physically and mentally... and all the blah blah that goes with it. It is of course just an added bonus (for me anyway) to be able to defend myself!!

memphis

Cabelo wrote:

How come so many peeps are pro cross-training yet so few showed up to the last meet?

Just to answer your question. I didn't attend simply because of my geographical location!! All meet and train sessions are in Dublin!

Clive

I couldn't make it either, but due to a scaldiness related incident.

pma-ire

ninjawitatitude wrote:

Indeed. We should all remember that we are discussing arts and not people. If I don't find your art appealing, it doesn't mean I think any less of you.

I don't think you understand this MA board? (Nor do a few other people that have just started posting in the last few weeks!)

There are people from all MA camps on this board. Some of the posters are examples of the result of one camp and some of crossover training. The regular posters know where most people are coming from. But that don't mean that we can't have long or repeated threads thrashing on about stuff that we will never agree about!! Cause this a Mixed board with mixed views, you can't spit the dummy cause someone challenges your comments.

If you also think that direct questioning is personal your missing the point of martial arts? I myself find this board to be the best on the web due to the above mentioned reasons. Other forums can be split into the MA camps and don't have much crossover which don't really develop peoples mind any further than their own dojo door.

So enjoy yourself on here and have fun

ninjawitatitude

Hey Pma-ire,
Thanks for getting back but that's not the point I was making. I'm saying that since no-one is going to talk anyone else out of their system by saying "see your style? That's crap, that is", that there isn't really a point in turning every thread into "who's style is best" arguments.
If we were to stay on topic we might be able to cover a lot more on the subject in hand, whatever it happens to be. There has been more than one thread that has devolved, just as it was getting intresting.
People are free to challenge my comments all they want. And if I didn't want to hear contradictory opinion I wouldn't post on an open and largely anonymous forum.
Also, I'm not saying that I take direct questioning personally but several people have. I'm saying lets be adults about the whole thing and accept that for better or worse, people will make their own minds up about what art is right for them, in their own time and the rest of us will have very little influence over it.
With this in mind why not discuss something else, apart from the one thing we will never all agree on? I'm all on for discussion but the prospect of endless repetition bores me. Am I on my own here?
Anyway, I will have fun on here. Ta bro.:D

john kavanagh

"This is true but a lot of people train for reasons other than self defence. Fitness, fun, flexibility, the social aspect or whatever. If a persons requirements are met then, I think, that art has it's place. Also, I think, that some people can become a little intimidated when asked to justify something that they haven't worked out the arguments for or against. Paricularly if they just enjoy the training and don't really care why"

that very rarely happens. its only when it mentions a specific 'fighting' skill development (such as being able to hit someone in a fight) that debate ensues (which is kinda the point of a martial arts discussion board:D )

so you have person X saying

"well i think method x (training method or style) is best to teach you to fight in the stand up range" then somebody will say "well i disagree, i think method y is better"

then there's usually a lot of foot stomping and moaning about lack of 'respect' and 'tradition' and such with the other person just scratching their head wondering why they get so upset when its suggested that they should just do some sparring in a controlled, safe environment to see what works best.

the alternative is somebody comes forward with an argument, such as the one above and then everybody coming on and saying 'oh yeah i agree' - i think you'll agree that forum would fizzle out pretty fast too:)

i agree 100% the style v style arguments supported with anecdotal evidence are a complete waste of time loaded with emotional attachment - the personal attacks are even worse!

i do however find discussions on comparing training methods interesting - like i said at the top they're the whole point of a Martial Arts DISCUSSION forum

kenpo_dave

This is a reply to the OP on the 'Defining TMA and MMA' thread.

I largely agree with columok.

In my opinion MMA is just the latest sporting version of martial arts. Any techniques that put competitors at too great a risk, or would end the fight too quickly and therefore take away the entertainment, have been removed.

TMA on the otherhand are the styles that various people throughout history have used in war and to simply defend themselves. The emphasis on the training is to perfect the movements and application of power through preset patterns, ie. Kata/forms, and stationary and moving exercises, before applying them to realistic training exercises, ie, sparring/kumite. Alot of TMA also do extensive training in various weapons.

I believe alot of arguments like this one occur due to some peoples bad experiences in 'McDojos', and the frauds that are running rampant in todays martial arts world.

columok

I believe alot of arguments like this one occur due to some peoples bad experiences in 'McDojos', and the frauds that are running rampant in todays martial arts world.

Not true. I trained with a very well respected instructor who while being regarded as uncompromising certainly wasn't in it for the money and was very strict with gradings. AFAIK this is true for most of the MMA people on this board (most of whom have trained TMA for many years)

Arnagan

ninjawitatitude Hello all,
I think we can all agree that we have a favorite style or system and that it works for us, and that we enjoy it. >>

First off, I'd like to say thank you for starting this thread, it seems interesting.
And as for it's substance so far; I'd say sure, define "work's" and not necessarily. I'll expound on this more in the end of this post.

<<But can't we all just act like adults and stop every thread devolving into MMA is better than TMA or the other way around.>>

I wish we could mr. Attitude, but if we did, men would not b men, and many of us would never have felt the need to take up the study of war in the first place.

<< We could actually get some intresting stuff covered and we might all learn something new. >>

More so if we have the right kind of "extremists" or "fanatics" to contrast our ideas with. After all, what'd b the use of say the civil rights movement, if there was no people getting persecuted in violation of their contract with the united states (see Bill of Rights).

<<Let's be honest, no one is going to talk anyone out of belief for their system with a couple of crass comments, they will in fact start another pointless row in which we all quote our favourite lines as for for why our system works for us.>>

Yes, but if u actually want ur target audience in a debate to b the opposing side or the Con to ur Pro, then ull likely fail to meet ur own standards of success every time unless the previously mentioned opposition is somehow educationally challenged, handicapped in some debilitating way, such as ignorant to the language (English) being used or doesn't know how to use a computor etc.
Debates r for the undecided, the lurkers in this case. It is them I'm interested in reaching, the quite learners who humbley (some even hungrily) listen and soke up and decifer for themselves, by their own standards what they believe to be correct and incorrect.
On the other side of the coin, if everybody was totally self appreciating, never challenging each others ideas and or beliefs, the forum would have to b an arena of imagination and creativity for even having a modicom of worth. It be more like creative writing class, then a self defence Bulliten Board Community.

<<So, we can either stay in the sandpit, saying "my daddy is bigger than your daddy" and calling each other names, or we can get over ourselves and talk about the one thing we all have in common.>>

I'm game.
When u said "we can all agree that we have a favorite style or system" I answered surethen u said something as if it was a given that I desperatly need u to clarify for me. You said, "and that it works for us, and that we enjoy it."
Now, I dunno weather ur just being de-escalation man and trying to calm and please a large group of dissenters, or u actually believe that everyone who u reffered too as "us" is getting what they really wanted out of what they do.
If its the second, then u must be talking about like 2 or 3 people u know personally and thats it, cause dude, most people study martial arts so they can be good in a fight, and there really is only one tried and true way to get good in a fight. And bro, it doesn't involve going to any kind of class.

<<Who knows we might even become friends and get to train in each others styles.>>

Sure, u might like the same food and drinks and movies I do and vice versa bro, but don't go to a Judo dojo and/or join a wrestling team when ur done reading this (those r my ma's) if getting good in a fight, is what u want to do.
U wanna b good in a fight, u do what an auto mechanic does when he wants to get better at repairing cars. Anyone here ever go water skiing? How did u ever get good at that, thats a hard thing.
Well, thats ur first step to getting good in a fight.

Arnagan

ninjawitatitude wrote:

So we're agreed then,

MMA and TMA use different methods but are both important in their own right.>>

Dude, it all depends on the TMA. U study or "play" judo, or fencing or rugby, u have more in common with MMA than anything else. If ur TMA have a venue in which its members can compete against each other at full speed/contact (obviously not in fencing, but no point sparring) in an impartial well regulated forum where a winner and looser can be definativly identified, then ur simply doing "Mixed Martial Arts" without the "Mixed" in it. Its not about crosstraining as much as the method's in which ur education is rendered.
If, an actively competing mixed martial artist for example had an opportunity to a martial education that entailed more forms, less contact less resistance and advancment was decifered in some esoteric way he or she was unable to easily guage for himself, then that cross training would hurt his athletic career as an MMA fighter.

Rev Hellfire

I for one have absolutely no idea what the point is you are trying to get across.

still learning

ninjawitatitude wrote:

Hello all,
I think we can all agree that we have a favorite style or system and that it works for us, and that we enjoy it. But can't we all just act like adults and stop every thread devolving into MMA is better than TMA or the other way around. We could actually get some intresting stuff covered and we might all learn something new.
Let's be honest, no one is going to talk anyone out of belief for their system with a couple of crass comments, they will in fact start another pointless row in which we all quote our favourite lines as for for why our system works for us.

So, we can either stay in the sandpit, saying "my daddy is bigger than your daddy" and calling each other names, or we can get over ourselves and talk about the one thing we all have in common. Who knows we might even become friends and get to train in each others styles.

Gambatte

I have to say this guy makes sense .I personally have studied both traditional and what i call sport martial arts and the way i see it is at the end of the day if you are gonna have a streetfight with someone sports martial arts MAY be better, but in a life or death situation e.g knife attack /baseball bat -guns even, i know a true traditional martial art would stand you better and to be fair i would rather escape death to myself or family and lose a streetfight and a bit of pride than have a rep as a hardman and when it came to a real serious threat end up in serious trouble
from reading this site i have come across another reason why traditional martial arts help people it seems to me that a lot of the sports martial artists lack basic manners and respect which is your basic of basics in a true traditional martial art
i think some(most) of the people on this board have a picture of TMA as a bunch of geeks running around in the dark jumping out of trees but these guys are just what real TMA want to get away from
At the end of the day the reality is that doing a mixture of TMA and sport martial arts with some western boxing thrown in is in the perfect world what i would love to be proficient in but time and funds restrict this so i will stick to what i believe will save my life push come to shove

just my tupence worth

pma-ire

still learning wrote:

I have to say this guy makes sense .I personally have studied both traditional and what i call sport martial arts and the way i see it is at the end of the day if you are gonna have a streetfight with someone sports martial arts MAY be better, but in a life or death situation e.g knife attack /baseball bat -guns even, i know a true traditional martial art would stand you better and to be fair i would rather escape death to myself or family and lose a streetfight and a bit of pride than have a rep as a hardman and when it came to a real serious threat end up in serious trouble
from reading this site i have come across another reason why traditional martial arts help people it seems to me that a lot of the sports martial artists lack basic manners and respect which is your basic of basics in a true traditional martial art
i think some(most) of the people on this board have a picture of TMA as a bunch of geeks running around in the dark jumping out of trees but these guys are just what real TMA want to get away from
At the end of the day the reality is that doing a mixture of TMA and sport martial arts with some western boxing thrown in is in the perfect world what i would love to be proficient in but time and funds restrict this so i will stick to what i believe will save my life push come to shove

just my tupence worth

Hi,

Thats a nice post man

But could you give us a bit of background to your MA experience? No need for ranks or names, just let us know what you study or have studied so we can see were you are coming from

ninjawitatitude

Hello all,
Here goes. One at a time,

john kavanagh wrote:

that very rarely happens. its only when it mentions a specific 'fighting' skill development (such as being able to hit someone in a fight) that debate ensues (which is kinda the point of a martial arts discussion board:D )

I'm all on for discussion, debate, argument and so on but constant one-up-manship is something I grew out of in the playground. If someone wants to discuss training methods, techniques, the shortcomings of my art or theirs, their favourite colour, then cool. But the grinding tedium of listening to your art's crap/ I'm over compensating for my own shortcomings by going on and on about how bad everyone else is and how supremely wonderful I am arguments, just seems rather dull. If one art or system was that far ahead of eveyone else, we'd all be doing it. Most of us anyway.

john kavanagh wrote:

then there's usually a lot of foot stomping and moaning about lack of 'respect' and 'tradition' and such with the other person just scratching their head wondering why they get so upset when its suggested that they should just do some sparring in a controlled, safe environment to see what works best.

Not sure if you mean me John or TMA in general. As for me, plenty of sparring up my way. My teacher often says, "without learning how to use it, that gun in your hand is just a lump of metal" (words to that effect) Actually while were on the subject, I think sparring is the only way to test things out. That or going out and getting in trouble but that's bad for the soul. But this is definitly a failing of many traditional schools.

john kavanagh wrote:

the alternative is somebody comes forward with an argument, such as the one above and then everybody coming on and saying 'oh yeah i agree' - i think you'll agree that forum would fizzle out pretty fast too:)

You don't seem to mind when they do it to you:D LOL. Seriously though, I think intelligent debate is the way forward not just the automatic gainsay of whatever someone from another camp says.

john kavanagh wrote:

i agree 100% the style v style arguments supported with anecdotal evidence are a complete waste of time loaded with emotional attachment - the personal attacks are even worse!......i do however find discussions on comparing training methods interesting - like i said at the top they're the whole point of a Martial Arts DISCUSSION forum

That's the whole point of this thread. Nice one.

Thanks for the feedback bro.

Gambatte

ninjawitatitude

Arnagan wrote:

I wish we could mr. Attitude, but if we did, men would not b men, and many of us would never have felt the need to take up the study of war in the first place.

Ha ha. It's so true.

Arnagan wrote:

More so if we have the right kind of "extremists" or "fanatics" to contrast our ideas with. After all, what'd b the use of say the civil rights movement, if there was no people getting persecuted in violation of their contract with the united states (see Bill of Rights).

Not sure I'm following you bro. Could you expand on that? Feel free to PM if you like.

Arnagan wrote:

Debates r for the undecided

Quite true, but even some of us who have commited to a camp are open to suggestion, so come on to these sort of boards to learn. But who's going to come and make a reasoned contribution to any topic when they have to sift through the endless garbage, that is petty control struggles and 'last word' competitions?

Arnagan wrote:

When u said "we can all agree that we have a favorite style or system" I answered surethen u said something as if it was a given that I desperatly need u to clarify for me. You said, "and that it works for us, and that we enjoy it."
Now, I dunno weather ur just being de-escalation man and trying to calm and please a large group of dissenters, or u actually believe that everyone who u reffered too as "us" is getting what they really wanted out of what they do.

When I say works, I refer to getting out of it what you want. i.e. Fitness, mental discipline, spiritual refinement, a killer right hook, a snazzy uniform, a history lesson, a gang of lads to go drinking with, etc. When I say us, I refer to all martial artists. When I say bo, say selector. Part of it is de-escalation mind you, I think we should turn a corner and just agree to disagree on certain things and have lively debate not just re-hash old and unresolved (unresolvable) arguments.

Arnagan wrote:

..most people study martial arts so they can be good in a fight, and there really is only one tried and true way to get good in a fight. And bro, it doesn't involve going to any kind of class.

Very true. But for those of us who do not have diplomatic immunity or spare get out of jail free cards, class is the only option.:D

Arnagan wrote:

Sure, u might like the same food and drinks and movies I do and vice versa bro, but don't go to a Judo dojo and/or join a wrestling team when ur done reading this (those r my ma's) if getting good in a fight, is what u want to do.
U wanna b good in a fight, u do what an auto mechanic does when he wants to get better at repairing cars. Anyone here ever go water skiing? How did u ever get good at that, thats a hard thing.
Well, thats ur first step to getting good in a fight.

Good point but in a class there are safety mechanisims in place to stop me getting killed if something goes wrong. That way I can hopefully become better at fighting before I enter a life or death situation. I myself have been bouncing for ten years, and have plenty of fights put my way, non of which I would have been able for , if not for martial arts training, in a dojo, with pads and rules and teaching and lollipops for the losers. LOL, I made the last part up.

Good points raised bro. Very intresting. Thanks very much:)

Gambatte

dent

Hi all,
Really cool thread. I posted this article before and thought it might be worth another read for those interested in the topic of the thread.

http://www.grapplearts.com/Submission-Grappling-vs-ju-jutsu.htm

Has a nice section on differences in training methods that rings quite true. I now know of 2 Jujutsu clubs that are now adding a Sport Jujutsu aspect.

Dave Joyce

Hey Still Learning, not sure if you're new to the forum but welcome and nice post, some interesting points.

MMA and TMA use different methods but are both important in their own right

Absolutey, for testing your empty hand fighting skills there is no better arena to go than a cage/ring under MMA rules but once again the mindset for that arena as I've said before is totally different to trying to keep yours/your familys health and wellbeing safe. When I teach a Self Protection course, I emphasise to participants that I will not teach them to fight on the street because (1) if the Guards come along and you're fighting most of the time they don't want to sort it out, will arrest both of us and let the courts decide whose to blame, (2) if you delay and start brawling with someone, you run the risk of other factors been introduced eg his friends coming on the scene if they're not already there, weapons etc, (3) the risk of ending up in court with a fine and possible publicity which could be detrimental to job prospects, visa applications etc However, I do emphasise that if you've no option and have to fight for whatever reason then you can't do it half heartedly and you have to win and get out of there at all costs. So I teach what would be regarded in a sporting context as cheating or fouling eg do whatever, use whatever you have to survive. (NB this is after clearly explaining the different types of scenarios and how to recoginise them and the possible consequences of your actions). For those that want further clarifacation to the mindset I'm refering to, take this as an example. When competing and the referee calls both sides out for the beginning of the fight, you don't expect his corner to jump you to soften you up, hes hopefully not carrying the water bottle to clock you with AND most importantly during the ref's instructions you don't expect to be sucker punched. Now if progressive thinking MMA clubs geniunely practised multiple opponent training, weapons training, sucker punching etc and included it in their cirriculum, then I'd think we'ed all be on an equal footing. But to diss guys who have no ambition to get in the ring/cage BUT spar IN their clubs for real, "alive" or whatever you want to call it, its a bit hard to take.

john kavanagh

ninjawitatitude wrote:

Hello all,
Here goes. One at a time,

I'm all on for discussion, debate, argument and so on but constant one-up-manship is something I grew out of in the playground. If someone wants to discuss training methods, techniques, the shortcomings of my art or theirs, their favourite colour, then cool. But the grinding tedium of listening to your art's crap/ I'm over compensating for my own shortcomings by going on and on about how bad everyone else is and how supremely wonderful I am arguments, just seems rather dull.

agreed fully. plus as the terms TMA, MMA, Style, Art etc etc have so many meanings to so many people its completely pointless. how can you have a debate about something if the main words we use have multiple meanings that's why i prefer to talk about training methods. such as the difference between training against a static opponent and training against a resisting opponent. this difference is pretty easy to see and doesn't mention any art, style etc etc.

ninjawitatitude wrote:

If one art or system was that far ahead of eveyone else, we'd all be doing it. Most of us anyway.

it think it comes down to like you said that different people train for different reasons

ninjawitatitude wrote:

Not sure if you mean me John or TMA in general.

sure i've no idea of your training methods so of course wasn't talking about you.

ninjawitatitude wrote:

I think sparring is the only way to test things out. That or going out and getting in trouble but that's bad for the soul. But this is definitly a failing of many traditional schools

agreed! but instead of using the loaded term 'traditional schools' i'd say 'non functional training methods ie endless repetitions against a non-resisting opponent or repeating a pattern in the air.

ninjawitatitude wrote:

You don't seem to mind when they do it to you:D LOL.

hey i dont care if people disagree with me, you'll never find me complaining about someones rudeness, abruptness, lack of respect or whatever. you will find me argue my case with them though and if at the end they dont agree with me then good for them:) afterall its a discussion forum!!

ninjawitatitude wrote:

Seriously though, I think intelligent debate is the way forward not just the automatic gainsay of whatever someone from another camp says.

here, here!!:D

ninjawitatitude

john kavanagh wrote:

...as the terms TMA, MMA, Style, Art etc etc have so many meanings to so many people its completely pointless. how can you have a debate about something if the main words we use have multiple meanings that's why i prefer to talk about training methods. such as the difference between training against a static opponent and training against a resisting opponent. this difference is pretty easy to see and doesn't mention any art, style etc etc.

Never really seen it that way before. (and hence don't know which smiley to use.):D A better way of looking it, I think.

john kavanagh wrote:

...instead of using the loaded term 'traditional schools' i'd say 'non functional training methods ie endless repetitions against a non-resisting opponent or repeating a pattern in the air.

Not sure i'd use the "loaded" (hope the irony isn't lost on y'all)term 'non functional'. Had real fights, pre sparring, where good old kata saved my fat ass. I do agree that there should be a distinction made between this sort of training and a more "live" version though.

Food for thought. Thanks John

Gambatte

john kavanagh

great post dave, really gets to the heart of the matter

Dave Joyce wrote:

MMA and TMA use different methods but are both important in their own right

Absolutey, for testing your empty hand fighting skills there is no better arena to go than a cage/ring under MMA rules but once again the mindset for that arena as I've said before is totally different to trying to keep yours/your familys health and wellbeing safe.

good point and i guess this is where the biggest disagreement comes up. i suppose i could be described as an 'MMA' instructor and personally i dont see the difference. i haven't found a better way to 'temper the mind/body' better than sparring the 3 ranges in a safe environment. it keeps you in shape, gets you used to the 'feel' of a fight (while remaining safe to do) and prepares you for the adrenaline hit.

but this is just my opinion - not saying it IS the best way, just one that has worked for me and those i know.

Dave Joyce wrote:

When I teach a Self Protection course, I emphasise to participants that I will not teach them to fight on the street because (1) if the Guards come along and you're fighting most of the time they don't want to sort it out, will arrest both of us and let the courts decide whose to blame, (2) if you delay and start brawling with someone, you run the risk of other factors been introduced eg his friends coming on the scene if they're not already there, weapons etc, (3) the risk of ending up in court with a fine and possible publicity which could be detrimental to job prospects, visa applications etc

there very good points. to be honest when i've taught SP courses i haven't even brought this up as i assume they will not be fighting on the street in the first place. i'd assume they'd only be using a physical responce as a last option

Dave Joyce wrote:

However, I do emphasise that if you've no option and have to fight for whatever reason then you can't do it half heartedly and you have to win and get out of there at all costs.

agreed - i would say the same thing 'only fight is you 100% have to. avoidance, verbal dissuasion, distraction, 'escape' - all first tactics then fight/physical responce absolute last option. i have found personally over the years that anyone training for self defence genuinely doesn't have to be told this, they dont want to be fighting on the street so would only 'fight' as a last resort.

Dave Joyce wrote:

So I teach what would be regarded in a sporting context as cheating or fouling eg do whatever, use whatever you have to survive.

personally i haven't found better training methods than those found in 'sport' martial arts for delivering 'foul' blows. thai boxing will teach you the skill required to land that eye jab, groin kick. wrestling will give you the skill required to bite someone to escape headlock etc. BJJ will get you up off the ground fast if you happen to fall and are being kicked/attacked while on the ground

of course this is just my opinion from limited experience, i certainly dont claim to have 'tried everything' but i do love trying new things!

Dave Joyce wrote:

For those that want further clarifacation to the mindset I'm refering to, take this as an example. When competing and the referee calls both sides out for the beginning of the fight, you don't expect his corner to jump you to soften you up, hes hopefully not carrying the water bottle to clock you with AND most importantly during the ref's instructions you don't expect to be sucker punched.

yeah thats true. besides the usual talk on awareness etc what advice would you give someone to give them the mindset to be ready for these unexpected attacks? i've read a couple of SP books and read about colour codes and personal dialogue etc etc and found it to be just common sense and can be covered in a 15min talk with someone.

Dave Joyce wrote:

Now if progressive thinking MMA clubs geniunely practised multiple opponent training, weapons training, sucker punching etc and included it in their cirriculum, then I'd think we'ed all be on an equal footing.

good point and personally its not something i'd teach at my place. the only tactics i'd offer for multiple opponents would be the usual thing - look to escape at all times, use foot work to fight one at a time, that sort of thing. i'd stress to them the importance of being in shape should you ever have to outrun a gang of people because any physical responce is probably going to fail beyond a very simple 'bang and run' policy. what kind of tactics do you guys drill?

Dave Joyce wrote:

But to diss guys who have no ambition to get in the ring/cage .

i cant remember any post where someone was dissed for having no ambition to get in the ring/cage but i could be wrong?

Dave Joyce wrote:

BUT spar IN their clubs for real, "alive" or whatever you want to call it, its a bit hard to take.

i dont think you'd find anyone from an MMA background debating with someone who does spar for real in their own club - getting into the ring is only for very few. in my gym i've about 90 or so training regular with only a handful competing, zero pressure on them to compete.

the debate usually comes from someone claiming by continous repetitions against a non-resisting opponent or performing patterns in the air you can someone learn to defend yourself in an actual fight without ever having to 'spar' or test your technique against a resisting opponent.

my $0.02 on the subject

kenpo_dave

"agreed! but instead of using the loaded term 'traditional schools' i'd say 'non functional training methods ie endless repetitions against a non-resisting opponent or repeating a pattern in the air."

Ya see John that is an insult to people who train in traditional martial arts. Youre basically saying that our training methods are useless, yet most of the older TMA styles were actually used in COMBAT, but perhaps it was only pretend combat These "endless repetitions against a non-resisting opponent or repeating a pattern in the air" is the 'perfection' of movement and application of power that I mentioned before. Any REAL TMA school does 'alive' training also. How can you possibly think that MMA are the only ones that do alive training? Thats just bloody IGNORANT.

So here is my definition of TMA and MMA


TMA = realistic martial arts that have actually been used throughout history by armies and by civilians that had to defend themselves on a regular basis against people who were actually trying to kill them.

MMA = Modern sport that resembles the arena fighting of the Greeks and Romans. MMA is watered down martial arts designed for the safe, controlled environment of competitions, which it rarely steps outside.


Hows that for YA???????????????:D

john kavanagh

kenpo_dave wrote:

Ya see John that is an insult to people who train in traditional martial arts.

well dave somehow you've missed my point again completely :rolleyes: - i was using the term 'loaded' to mean that it can mean many different things to many different people. thats why i dont like using terms like MMA, TMA, Art, Style etc etc and instead concentrate on terms like functional methods and non-functional training methods. i thought i made that clear in my post?

kenpo_dave wrote:

Youre basically saying...

please do not try and interpret what i said, instead look EXACTLY at what i said.

kenpo_dave wrote:

...our training methods are useless

who is 'our' and what training methods are you talking about?

kenpo_dave wrote:

These "endless repetitions against a non-resisting opponent or repeating a pattern in the air" is the 'perfection' of movement and application of power

a ha! now you're making a point!! well i disagree with you but i think i'll start another thread about this....as its a big topic

kenpo_dave wrote:

Any REAL TMA school does 'alive' training also

well like i said (repeatedly) i dont like using terms like TMA, MMA etc as they can mean so many different things to so many people

kenpo_dave wrote:

How can you possibly think that MMA are the only ones that do alive training? Thats just bloody IGNORANT.

are you serious? where have i said anything like this? what i will say is funtional training methods lead to ability to perform and non-functional training methods will not, in my opinion anyway and i'm open to be corrected.

what are those 'funtional training methods '?? well thats a good question...and one i'll go into more in the other thread.

kenpo_dave wrote:

TMA = realistic martial arts that have actually been used throughout history by armies and by civilians that had to defend themselves on a regular basis against people who were actually trying to kill them.

MMA = Modern sport that resembles the arena fighting of the Greeks and Romans. MMA is watered down martial arts designed for the safe, controlled environment of competitions, which it rarely steps outside.


Hows that for YA???????????????:

what do i think of your definitions? i think they're as a meaningless as all the other definitions i've read

ninjawitatitude

john kavanagh wrote:

what i will say is funtional training methods lead to ability to perform and non-functional training methods will not, in my opinion anyway and i'm open to be corrected.

Have to disagree there bro, posted in other thread though. Trying to stay on topic.

I think though, that where a lot of the conflict of opinion arises is down to why you're practising MA in the first place. I train to finish as soon as I can and to get offside even sooner. (The bouncer is always guilty. In Dublin anyway.) The concept of prolonged fighting is alien to a lot of people of a certain background:) but not to others of a different backgrond:)
Therefore, I will aim for a five second knock out, where as you might aim for a third round submission, for example. I know almost everyone will aim for the five second over the third round but (and this is where TMA's can let you down. Sorry. Couldn't be avoided.) when it doesn't arise you have to switch tactics. This is where conditioning will win.
Having said that, I've seen hundred of fights, from the dirtiest of scum to the dirtiest of toffs and not once did I see (and this is where MMA's can let you down) jabs, submissions on the ground and other 'sport' type methods. Indeed, most of those that went down, didn't come back up, regardless of who did the shoot.
I do think TMA will help you in the competitive arena but not nearly as much as MMA will help you in the real arena of our increasingly violent city.

Gambatte

Arnagan

I personally have studied both traditional and what i call sport martial arts and the way i see it is at the end of the day if you are gonna have a streetfight with someone sports martial arts MAY be better, but in a life or death situation e.g knife attack /baseball bat -guns even, i know a true traditional martial art would stand you better>>

I respectfully dissagree. I think that the old "my art is better than ur art" in any/specific or unspecified situation is moot and the question really boils down to "which art teaches the best technique". No martial art, sport et al, will help someone avoid being constricted with fear during fight or flight, but some do teach proper form better than others.
Now if ur up to snuff, and down to throw hands (as opposed to overthinking the situation or running/flight) when the proverbial feces is hurled towards the fan, u r biologically incapable of using anything but the "best tools in ur toolbox".
That's why I believe it comes down to who teaches technique the best.

<< from reading this site i have come across another reason why traditional martial arts help people it seems to me that a lot of the sports martial artists lack basic manners and respect which is your basic of basics in a true traditional martial art>>

There definatly is enough trash talk to make that arguement seem plausible, but consider this. Do u think any of the people uv observed from the Sport Martial Art side of the arguement, that u believe aren't lieing about how much they actually study, would show that same type of disrespect on the matt to their own teachers/coaches?

<<i think some(most) of the people on this board have a picture of TMA as a bunch of geeks running around in the dark jumping out of trees>>

Then lets define the differences. How about;
Traditional Martial Arts = MA's that don't have a competative or sporting arena in which to guage skill level.
Martial Sports = Ma's that do?
Mixed Martial Arts = the name given to a specific sport that mixes the following Martial Sports; Boxing, Mui Tai, Wrestling, Judo, Sambo and Jui Jitsu.

<< At the end of the day the reality is that doing a mixture of TMA and sport martial arts with some western boxing thrown in>>

Isn't Western Boxing a martial sport?

pma-ire

Arnagan wrote:

Then lets define the differences. How about;
Traditional Martial Arts = MA's that don't have a competative or sporting arena in which to guage skill level.
Martial Sports = Ma's that do?
Mixed Martial Arts = the name given to a specific sport that mixes the following Martial Sports; Boxing, Mui Tai, Wrestling, Judo, Sambo and Jui Jitsu.

You've walked into JK main point about trying to define TMA and MMA What could be classed as TMA's like TKD, Kyokushinkai and even Judo (though it's become more a sport today, it is rife with TMA aspects!!) do have a competative or sporting arena in which to guage skill level.

Infact most TMAs do! It's just the level of contact and ranges can be limited. Maybe you mean Full contact competative or sporting arena?? But then Kyokushinkai is Full contact?????

then on the MMA side of things. There are guys on here (you may have noticed that have mixed there TKD with grappling and ground to fight in MMA and have done pretty well!!

MMA is more about Mixed ranges than mixed styles! (Ooops! I've done it myself )

john kavanagh

ninjawitatitude wrote:

I train to finish as soon as I can and to get offside even sooner. (The bouncer is always guilty. In Dublin anyway.)

this is one of the two BIG misconceptions i see come up time and time again when MMA is discussed in a 'self defence' type way.

i too have worked as a doorman for a couple of years and was in a fair number of incidents and none ever went past 10-20secs when they turned physical. at no time would i think to myself ok i'll wear him down, g'n'p him a little bit maybe grind out a decision victory.

to finish the fight as quickly as possible is ALWAYS the goal, whether thats a MMA or street fight (you don't see much amatuer style 'jabbing' in a MMA match either!) its just that in an MMA fight the opponent will be of similar level so it aint quite that easy to finish him - unlike a streetfight.

where this misconception comes from i cant understand? that somehow MMA style training turns you into a dumb robot unable to see the difference between the tactics used in a street fight and those used in the ring the delivery system of hitting as hard as you can on your feet, understanding the clinch range and knowing how to handle yourself on the ground remain constant - its just a slight change of tactics.

Mikel

still learning wrote:

I personally have studied both traditional and what i call sport martial arts and the way i see it is at the end of the day if you are gonna have a streetfight with someone sports martial arts MAY be better, but in a life or death situation e.g knife attack /baseball bat -guns even, i know a true traditional martial art would stand you better ............ i will stick to what i believe will save my life push come to shove

I don't understand this tbh, how is it that in a fight sports martial arts are more useful, but if you raise the stakes to a life threatening situation then the tma will stand to you more? How have the odds been put in favour of a tma'er? If you can't win a fight with fists and kicks, how has the fact that the situation is more threatening actually helping you to make use of what you have trained?
If you can't fight one unarmed attacker, how can you handle a "life or death situation"??

Cabelo

Secret scrolls, sorcery etc... pretty obvious TBH

columok

Secret scrolls, sorcery etc... pretty obvious TBH

LOL. You've still got it...;)

It's amazing how some people claim that they'd be safer in a street fight than in a referee controlled MMA ring. Ludicrous really.

ninjawitatitude

Hey John,
Thanks for the feedback,

john kavanagh wrote:

.. was in a fair number of incidents and none ever went past 10-20secs when they turned physical. at no time would i think to myself ok i'll wear him down, g'n'p him a little bit maybe grind out a decision victory.

You missed the point a little John, I meant that if it did go on, you would have the option to wear him down due to your stamina/conditioning.

john kavanagh wrote:

to finish the fight as quickly as possible is ALWAYS the goal, whether thats a MMA or street fight (you don't see much amatuer style 'jabbing' in a MMA match either!) its just that in an MMA fight the opponent will be of similar level so it aint quite that easy to finish him - unlike a streetfight.

Yes , I agree. I'm pointing out that style of fighting is more applicable to a 'match' rather than a streetfight.

john kavanagh wrote:

where this misconception comes from i cant understand? that somehow MMA style training turns you into a dumb robot unable to see the difference between the tactics used in a street fight and those used in the ring

Didn't mean to give you that impression, I was more trying to get across the idea that one should focus one's training on what they will be most likely to use in whatever field they will be performing in. Be it match, streetfight or whatever.

This is my edited bit..I should mention that at least one doorman that I have worked with, with an MMA background is notorious for takedowns in bar brawls. He's yet to be injured doing it, but that's as much to do with a good team watching his back as anything else. This is one of several (but not many) similar anecdotes shared among my close friends. That's where my view comes from anyway...

Hope that clears things up.:D

Arnagan

ninjawitatitude wrote:

Quite true, but even some of us who have commited to a camp are open to suggestion, so come on to these sort of boards to learn. But who's going to come and make a reasoned contribution to any topic when they have to sift through the endless garbage, that is petty control struggles and 'last word' competitions?

Hopefully the good people willing to take the harder road. The smarter ones will also know that their battle against ignorance is not limited to the hard liners doing all the argueiung, but more importantly their followers. So even though it may seem like "falling on ur own sword" to debate a fanatic u know won't change his opinion, by loosing that single battle with class, u'll win the war by turning his or her followers to ur side.

<<When I say works, I refer to getting out of it what you want. i.e. Fitness, mental discipline, spiritual refinement, a killer right hook, a snazzy uniform, a history lesson, a gang of lads to go drinking with, etc. >>

Sorry bro but its people who take up Martial Arts for the reasons I've quoted in BOLD type that r responsible for what's wrong with it today. It's "MARTIAL" as in "WAR" art's, not vollyball, or church, a cat-walk, high school, or the boy scouts, its fight training. People who primarilywant that other stuff r responsible for this rash of phoney Karate schools, making money off of poor shmoes who don't know any better. They've been bullied, or raped and victomized, and want it to stop, so they go to some place that makes them feel a part of something that is something totally different, and tricks them out their money. Now getting that stuff residually, that's different, but some friggen yuppy's or unhappy housewives, and they're not really into learning how to brake up someones body with a foot sweep, they need to check themselves.

<<Very true. But for those of us who do not have diplomatic immunity or spare get out of jail free cards, class is the only option.:D >>

Not necessarily. Fighting, is one of many instances in which a person can and often does suffer the negative effects of fear. A good fighting teacher will know this and be able to tap into this with his student by finding out; for example how many or if car accidents or fights the student has been in, incidents where the person has seen a death or serious physical injury et al. Once this has happened, pushing the right buttons becomes a matter of the educators skill (ie verbally abusing the student from behind, quietly, while he's doing technique reps, or on the other end of the spectrum, verbally coaxing the student into a softer more focused place during constant motion or going live). The thing is, if the teacher hasn't been in a few real fights and suffered the negative as well as positive effects of fight or flight, they'll only b teaching the acedemics of the issue.

<<Good point but in a class there are safety mechanisims in place to stop me getting killed if something goes wrong. That way I can hopefully become better at fighting before I enter a life or death situation.>>

Lucky u man Me, I got my butt served to me at least a dozen times before I got anything out of any martial art, but lemmie tell ya. When I started getting paid for it, like you have (I started out in 93', keep retiring every couple years), I was simply amazed at how effective the simplest most basic techniques r, once I set my mind to it. After that first couple of 2.5 weeks/per single act of violence in defnece of (whoever was paying for the Beef), it became a tangible process of development where the more I paid attention to what was really going on the better I got. And how I did my job, was totally related to how I maintained my awareness and understanding of my surrounding, no matter what. So I turned work into a game where awareness was like points I needed to amass, and a win was a total view of the field at all times, and a residual effect of all this was knowing (not thinking, or guessing or hoping; but knowing) that I could fight.