Hardest hitters on the planet?

Michael O Leary

Hi all,

I received the following thread from another contributer and rather than go off on a tangient when I am having a separate discussion I thought it would make an interesting new thread.

"of course you could just always copy the training methods of the hardest hitters on the planet...."

So does anyone have any opinion of who the hardest hitters on the planet would be and what methods they employ? And also if for example a Karate practitioner can do a harder punch than a thai-boxer, then using the above suggestion, would Karate be a better option?

Regards,

Michael O'Leary
www.wingtsun-escrima.ie

loz

Its gotta be the Boxers !

dlofnep

Heavyweight boxer.

Michael O Leary

Hi lads,

I don't have any experience regarding Karate or boxing so this is not a loaded question. With all other factors such as weight, emotional state being equal who could hit the hardest? Would you still say a boxer? Or what about the breaking techniques in Karate, TKD, etc? Now I know about the whole area of boards not hitting back but I am not talking about tactics just who has the greater ability to hit the hardest.

Regards,

Michael O'Leary
www.wingtsun-escrima.ie

loz

Michael O Leary wrote:

Or what about the breaking techniques in Karate, TKD, etc? Now I know about the whole area of boards not hitting back but I am not talking about tactics just who has the greater ability to hit the hardest.

Regards,

Michael O'Leary
www.wingtsun-escrima.ie

You dont have to hit either solid pine or reuseable pine/plastic boards hard to break them - its all technique.

theres huge difference in hitting hard and breaking technique.....

pma-ire

Impact in combat is much more important than impacting boards.

PJG

easy boxers,

Dragan

With out a doubt it would have to be a boxer/striker. This is the whole name of the game to them, the one knockout punch that will ensure victory.

Scramble

I would agree with the lads and also say that I think western boxing consistently produces the heaviest hitters.

Probably to do with the footwork, training methods, emphasis on conditioning, all the money pumped into the sports science of boxing over the years and the fact that it is based on empirically testing fighters and methods against other fighters (the better prepared boxer wins, and his training methods are propogated).

I have seen (and practiced) other ways of punching. Sometimes there are convincing arguments attached to them, but I don't think they generate the same type of power or come as part of the same well-developed overall package that boxing offers. Someone well trained in them is a better puncher than if he had no training, but I don't think they are optimum.

waterford mma

this dude

dlofnep

One punch Mickey for the win!

Michael O Leary

I agree with a lot of the points you have made lads ie, that impact in combat is more important than impacting boards, certain boards are easy to break, the whole issue of an overall package being important, etc and Waterford MMA, your submission was very funny and probley true

Its just when I look at someone breaking for example a concrete block. I have never seen a western puncher do this. Is it just a trick? If you substitute the concrete block for two heads which are identical and the people attached to the two heads just stand there and let themselves be hit, one by a Karate guy and the other by a western boxer which would do the greater damage?

Regards,

Michael O'Leary
www.wingtsun-escrima.ie

Dragan

If you move the argument into the real, you can just say that why not have the Karate guy and the boxer go at it and see who hits harder in a series of tests. However, if you added in a moving target i.e a human, what chance would the karate guy have of delivery the blow correctly? Anytime i have witnessed these block breaking incidents a lot of mental prep is required. A boxer will just knock you the **** out!

dent

Are we just talking fists here?

If not surely Thai Boxers leg/Knee strikes would be the hardest hitters.

columok

Hitting a static target is significantly different to hitting a dynamic target. Respect to people who can karate chop a landpost into oblivion and all but...

Boxers hit hardest and to boot very often.

Dave Joyce

Big generalisation to say boxers are the biggest hitters. A lot of boxers don't have any KO power and believe it or not (as Mr Ripley used to say) a lot of Thai boxers CAN hit really hard with their HANDS!! eg the Galaxy bros and all the other Thais who turned Western boxing. And what about Nigel Benn who packed a fair whallop, he started in kickboxing, even up to date Matt Skelton who's doing the rounds in the Heavyweight division at the mo started in Muaythai even winning an amateur world title. In my opinion some karate-ka's have the hardest teep sorry front kick going (and I do Thai!!).

As an aside Michael, Tuhon Tom Kier started out in wrestling and also boxed a good bit and I don't know if hes ever broken blocks but I've seen discintegrate a coconut with a palm strike.

ADO

in my opinion George Foreman who had a right hand that was nicknamed "a human wrecking ball", the guy had so much power in his punches it was scarey!

BUT whilst george forman did have incredible power in his punch i would have to give my #1 vote to Mike Tyson! tyson had unreal power in his punch's and not only that but he had extremly fast hand speed aswell which didnt help wit the power of his punches, i cant remember exactly who it was he was fighting but after a fight i remember they interviewed the guy tyson just KO'd and he said "he hits so hard and fast,iv never ever been hit that hard before!"

So Tyson is #1 hard hitter for me.

If anyone likes try google video and look for some mike tyson clips and they will clearly show how hard of a hitter he is.

Thank You.

john kavanagh

imo the training methods of boxing allow you to punch the hardest it is possible to hit for your bodyweight/muscle structure, by the same token thai training methods will allow you to kick/knee as hard as possible for your bodyweight/muscle structure. combine the two and that one scary mo fo!!

Scramble

Its just when I look at someone breaking for example a concrete block. I have never seen a western puncher do this. Is it just a trick?

I can't say if this is true in every case, but I understand there are ways to make breaking bricks and patio blocks a lot easier:-

-Baking the brick in an oven dries it out and makes it brittle

-Placing spacers between a couple of bricks can make them easier to break consecutively

-Raising the brick or whatever is to be broken above another object, so that it impacts it when struck. The object is being slammed into another (usually deliberately harder) object.

I know that there is an argument which says that breaking is a test of focus and accuracy, but it always struck me as more in the vein of a magic show demonstration rather than martial arts. Like firewalking, or David Blaine doing levitation on a street corner.

Pro. F

on boxers: thai/western boxers (but not bareknuckle) always train & fight with lots of protection on their hands (wraps & gloves). can they punch that hard with out the protection?
imo: to soft tissue, sure. but one or two power punches that land on, say, a hard part of the skull and your hands are f****d. anybody remember Tank Abbot saying that he started waring gloves in the UFC becuase his punches were hurting his hands?

i´ve heard that the bareknuckle lads punch light most of the time when fighting in order to save there hands. and i´ve read of some boxing world championship fights c1900, before gloves and round-limits were introduced, lasting for more than an hour, doesn´t sound to me like they were punching so hard if they could survive for that long.

it would seem to me that elbows, knees, shins, palmstrikes, etc would be most reliable for powerhitting.

Michael O Leary

Sorry guys but what does imo mean? I am new (ish) to forums.

Regards,

Michael O'Leary
www.wingtsun-escrima.ie

john kavanagh

yeah i'd agree with you there....but that wasn't the question.

who are the hardest hitters on the planet? well like i said above i believe it to be boxers/thai because of the reasons i said above.

there's a good reason that pro-boxers smash up there hands if they were to hit something harder than the bones in their hands/knuckles (such as someone's skull, a brick wall etc) its because they hit so hard (as hard is possible for their weight/muscle structure).

basic physics - smash too objects together with extreme force and the weaker one fails. the reason some guys can do the party trick of breaking 'hard' objects like boards, blocks etc etc is because, well its a party trick.

now whats the best weapon to use to hit someone (palm, elbow etc), which particular athlete hits the hardest, etc etc are all interesting questions BUT not the question asked at the beginning of this thread

kenpo_dave

I agree with JK on Boxing for punching and Muay for kicking. Boxing because their whole style is based on punching. And Muay Thais round house kicks because of the conditioning they do on their shins allows them to hit as hard as they can.

Now, I want to comment on breaking. Although Ive never done breaking, it is something Ive thought about alot. To me breaking is about conditioning. I do know that alot of boards have grooves on one side to make them break more easily. In my opinion the boards have to break, otherwise its like hitting a tree, and whats the point in that. As for bricks and ice, I believe they are the progression on from boards.

http://www.enshin.com/images/kancho_ice_break.jpg

john kavanagh

"To me breaking is about conditioning."

what does that mean? if someone has good 'conditioning' to me that would mean he's good cardio, in good overall shape.

columok

Dave,

I've never heard board breaking as being regarded as hand conditioning as most karateka use the makiwara. In my eyes board breaking is for display and is a test of focus.

Colum

kenpo_dave

"if someone has good 'conditioning' to me that would mean he's good cardio, in good overall shape"

Yes that is ONE type of conditioning. But there is more. Im talking about conditioning parts of the body (knuckles, shins, feet, etc) for striking. For example, using rolling pins to deaden the nerves on the shins. Theres also conditioning methods to help the body take strikes.
Why is it that alot of MMA people cant get their heads around the idea of there being types of conditioning other than just cardio conditioning

In reply to columok. Regardless of what breaking is used for, there is alot of conditioning needed to break bricks and ice.

columok

Dave,

I've never heard of a martial artist training with ice or blocks to increase their hand conditioning. Its a demo thing.

I've seen, as I said, karate people use the makiwara and kungfu people use sand. Also I know a guy who flattened his knuckles by punching a post covered in rope.

Now... why you'd want to do damage to your hands (one of those key day to day tools) is another story. Personally I like being able type internet debates for the duration of my life...

kenpo_dave

Ok granted, breaking bricks and ice is more for display, but I still think boards can be used as a method of conditioning, and of course for improving focus. Actually, people only mess up their hands and whatnot from that kind of conditioning if they dont treat them properly afterwards. Theres liniments, creams, and lotions to help avoid permenant damage. Dit Da Jow is probably the best known example.

Michael O Leary

Hi Guys,

Thanks so far for all the replies but we are getting a little lost.

I am specifically not talking about the overall package, nor about personalities (Mike Tyson, etc), nor mobility, nor mental preparation, nor number of punches, nor a moving target. I am talking about training methodologies. With all other elements being equal which method of training will produce the greater bareknuckle punch in a static situation?

Dave Joyce made an interesting and honest comment that even though he does Muay Thai he believes that some Karate guys can do a harder front kick. Would anyone else feel the same with bareknuckle punches in a static situation?

If you don't know the answer then it is ok but try and keep it to the original question at least until we have exhausted it. I admit that I don't know the answer and that is why I am asking.

By the way, what does imo mean?

Regards,

Michael O'Leary
www.wingtsun-escrima.ie

patjunfa

imo-In my opinion. imho- in my humble opinion

strange but tru

just for the sake of variety i would say the hardest hitters would be the boxers but that would have to be a general thing. to say foreman was the heaviest hitter of all time was a bit out spoken what about the rock or in recent times tyson for size and power these guys hit alot harder than foreman whith his 22 stone frame

Cake Fiend

Generally, I'd say a boxer - they specifically train to punch as hard as possible, including body conditioning (as in muscle). Most karateka are training to get in, punch-punch-kick-punch, get out while getting hit as little as possible themselves and stances and body positioning in karate reflects this (more upright posture for e.g.). Boxers (from what I've seen) tend to commit themselves more to an assault, sometimes taking a few smacks to get their attack in. Also, most boxers I've seen tend to be a lot bigger than your average karateka!

I'd say boxing would teach you a lot about how to maximize the impact of a punch, but not as much about defending yourself (from punches and kicks and headbutts and...) as MT, karate or TKD. It's designed as a sport with limited attack methods, so it can specialize in a way other MAs can't.

vasch_ro

having read some of Paul Morans posts in another thread I would suggest Kung Fu guys (Gung Fu ) , to quote from that thread

"If I strike the abdomen of an opponent with a Longfist punch, the force going forward would cause them to fall away from me. If I strike the same target with a Whitecrane strike they will fold over. This is because the whipping power going forward with velocity and conversely the whipping power coming back (also taking into account the different hand forms) will cause the power to go into the body as opposed to the impact spreading across the body"

also wasn't Bruce Lee famous for his one inch Kung Fu punch.

Dragan

kenpo_dave wrote:

Why is it that alot of MMA people cant get their heads around the idea of there being types of conditioning other than just cardio conditioning

Becuase to most MMA people there is no point in smashing your hands into something just to condition the knuckles, or running a rolling pin up and down your shin to deaden nerves. In MMA , like in all martial arts, you can knock someone out or you can't. Simple fact is that some people cannot throw a knockout punch, for whatever reason it may be. Other people are knock out artists, thats just the way it goes.

Also, run what ever the hell you want up and down your shin, you'll still tap to a knee bar of a heel hook. At the end of the day MMA fighters are trying to boil down most form of martial arts to what works and whats for show.

As for the hardest hitters, you could never argue kicks over punches, they two are too dynamically different. You would have to say who throws the hardest hand shots and who throws the hard feet shots. Even then everything i just opinion!

Colm_OReilly

Dave,

The conventional use of the word "conditioning" would indicate cardiovascualur/locomuscular strength and endurance.

As far as rolling pin on the shin, I've heard that most Thai boxers hit objects softer than their bones. From what I've heard, the banana tree is quite soft, like the saddle of a bike. Of course, Paddy or Wayne could correct me here.

Colm

kenpo_dave

"At the end of the day MMA fighters are trying to boil down most form of martial arts to what works and whats for show"

Yes they are. But what Ive found is that most MMA fighters dont have the necessary experience to do this. They may have trained in one or two other styles but then think they can judge EVERY other style. Its completely arrogant. Also, anything that they dont understand they deem as useless.

kenpo_dave

I forgot to say this.

"you'll still tap to a knee bar of a heel hook"

Of course. The conditioning is for striking. So, when people deaden the nerves in their shins of course theyll tap if you do joint manipulation, the feet and knees arent part of the shin.;)

Dragan

No that wasn't my point. My point was that that sort of thing is of no advantage to them so they will not do it plain and simple. I was not implying that it should help in either of those circumstances.

As for the "arrogance" of MMA fighters, i'm sure that many of them here would be a little bit annoyed at that, as my experience of MMA fighters is that they are good folks, who normally know about more forms of martial arts than most.

As for them not being at an expert level, they don't need to be. All they need to know is that in the ring, in an MMA competition the five things that win will always be the arm bar, the choke, the knee bar, the heelhook and the knockout.

These are the money shots so these are what they will work on. I have seen people solely from mixed martial arts schools put these on the so called "experts" from the relevant fields. If someone spends four years learning arm bars and using them in the ring, and all there wins are as a result of an arm bar submission does this not allow them to be considered an expert? Or is is because they have not graded that other people do not like it?

One thing that i noticed a long time ago is that for as much stick as MMA guys get about being arrogant, a lot of the more "established" martial arts don't exactly offer them a huge ammount of respect. And i reckon the reason for this started whent he UFC first came about.

Martial Artists everywhere shook there head as these brawlers like Tank Abbot stepped into the ring. Where was the training? Who said this streetfighter can get in there and scrap? Well guess what. He did. And he was great at what he did.

I think a lot of arts were hurt because MMA really opened it up and offered people something that was fun, and that worked and that time and energy would reward. Instead of having to move this way and think that way you could do what you wanted as long as it worked.

Me, i respect pretty much anyone who dedicates themselves to the martial arts in any form, or pretty much any physical activity for that matter. However, i refuse to use blanket statements like "all karate guys would suck in a fight" or "All MMA guys are arrogant".

People will always differ, i think they should simply remember the humility that nearly all the arts will try and teach as well.

Pro. F

Colm_OReilly wrote:

As far as rolling pin on the shin, I've heard that most Thai boxers hit objects softer than their bones. From what I've heard, the banana tree is quite soft, like the saddle of a bike.

Soft -All things are relative!!
i´ve never kicked a banana tree but i´ve spent many a fun evening kicking the heavy bag:rolleyes: ; from what i´ve heard (from Dave Joyce) the heavy bag is simmilar to the banana tree.
It is softer than the shin but still very hard, sort of like a wet sand bag. much harder than the saddle of bike. kicking the heavy bag improves technique, deadens nerves and increases bone density&mass. from what i remember all the rest (rolling pins etc) are a bad idea as they don´t increase bone density&mass (dave, pls correct me if i´m wrong here), then this happens http://www.fightingfitgym.co.uk/Video.html click on Muay Thai - Leg Break vid)

About punchers breaking there hands: it would appear (from my junior cert physics but i´m not 100% sure, twas 10yrs ago!) that if a puncher breaks his hand in a punch then most of the energy goes into the bones of his hand, not your head. so if this happens is he really hitting hard or is he just punching hard?
i remember getting what looked like a big punch before it landed , on me cheek/temple, but it was really soft when it did land. i found out after that the guy had broken his hand in the punch. anybody else got some annecdotal evidance like this? or maybe contradicting this?

<snip>

kenpo_dave

Dragan you are right and I apologise.

"At the end of the day MMA fighters are trying to boil down most form of martial arts to what works and whats for show."

Its just this line pissed me off. I have no problem with MMA fighters taking stuff from other styles and adding it to their own training.

loz

Pro. F wrote:

Soft -All things are relative!!
i´ve never kicked a banana tree but i´ve spent many a fun evening kicking the heavy bag:rolleyes: ; from what i´ve heard (from Dave Joyce) the heavy bag is simmilar to the banana tree.
It is softer than the shin but still very hard, sort of like a wet sand bag. much harder than the saddle of bike.

I just happened to grope a banana tree in the newly revamped hothouse in the botanical gardens on sanday last - and they are very soft on the trunk - infact i woulnt even call it a trunk - more of a stem with a hard inner.

be a bit like a ( plastic ) heavy bag - with a slightly cushioned outer layer.

kenpo_dave

Actually Pro if you look carefully at the video the other actually blocks the kick with his knee, so it was the combines forces of the roundhouse kick and the other guy driving his knee into the kick that resulted in the leg getting broken. I think it would have happened regardless of the conditioning the guy does on his shins
But ye, I get your point.

Most people who punched me in the head when I was in school either severly bruised their hand or fractured some fingers. Others just didnt have any power anyway so it neither hurt me nor them.

Pro. F

to loz: i stand corrected. maybe the Banana tree is just for bone mass. (sorry if i´ve miss quated ya bout the banana tree davejoyce, i prob wasn´t paying attention in class, D´OH!)

To kenpo_dave: ye i see now that the kick does land high up, on either the harder part of the shin or the knee. as to it happening regardless of shin conditioning. nah, to me it looks like a classic example of brittle shins.

judomick

kenpo_dave wrote:

"At the end of the day MMA fighters are trying to boil down most forms of martial arts to what works and whats for show."

Its just this line pissed me off.

why does this piss you off?


western boxing,
how many long term competitors of other striking arts have suffered from pugilistica dementia or died as a result of blows to the head?

this sad fact kinda proves imo the power with which western boxers hit

and also rocky iv when Ivan drago hit that pad there was like a billion pounds of pressure:D

Dragan

kenpo_dave wrote:

Dragan you are right and I apologise.

"At the end of the day MMA fighters are trying to boil down most form of martial arts to what works and whats for show."

Its just this line pissed me off. I have no problem with MMA fighters taking stuff from other styles and adding it to their own training.

Ah ha!! And this in itself is the very crux of the matter. It's the fact the MMA fighters will take what they need, while the guy who dedicate themselves to a certain discipline and stick rigidly within that can be a bit annoyed that they see some dude utilising there move but hasn't put the time in!!!

I do understand where your coming from, but at the end of the day, thats exactly what Mixed Martial Arts has become. Sure, it was originally designed to answer the boxer vs karate question and earn some guys some cash but now it has evolved and is becoming it's own legitimate art in the eyes of a great many people!

Well, now that i have dragged this completely off topic i shall apologise, bow to my betters and sink into the shadows.

kenpo_dave

Sorry Dragan, I never explained WHY it pissed me off. Alot of MMA fighters that Ive talked to, though not so much on this forum, talk about taking stuff from other styles but have no experience in the styles they are taking stuff from and have no idea of the underlying principles of the stuff they deem as useless. This is where the ignorance comes from.

judomick

Kenpo dave mma guys do take what they deem functional from other arts, if something doesnt work well then they wont use it! i say breaking blocks or learning a death touch is useless because it will never serve me in the area i need it to, how is this arrogant or have i missed your point?

p.s death touches

john kavanagh

"Why is it that alot of MMA people cant get their heads around the idea of there being types of conditioning other than just cardio conditioning "

i am WELL aware of the different types of conitioning that martial arts talk about - i wanted to see what that word meant to you.

kempo dave we've already sparred some stand-up, and even a little bit of MMA. i think if you were to get a little bit of ability in the stand-up range or MMA then what is being said here about functional training methods v non-functional training methods.

i defineatly agree with you about the arrogance and superior attitude of some guys who come from an MMA mindset but tbh they are usually beginners, guys who actually have 'game' in the 3 ranges are usually very respectful.

Dragan

Ah yes, but the whole basic principle of Mixed Martial Arts is kind of a torn down and gutted thing to begin with. There is philosophy for how to live or treat your fellow man. Simply do what will bring you victory. It is not required to know the history or a move to be able to do it.

Thats called "elitism" and is part of the reason why martial arts struggled in the mainstream for so long. If i walk into a gym and i see a group of lads training and i want to train with them yet they are standoffish about things that is not good.

Lack of knowledge is very different to arrogance which is the word that was originally used. But quite simply i don't need to know that type of thing to do whatever technique i choose to do. And you knowing it does not mean you do it better than me.

Plain and simple!!! The simple fact of the matter is that the days of the "secrets of the arts" are long gone. Be it for better or worse it is simply so.

kenpo_dave

"i think if you were to get a little bit of ability in the stand-up range"

John are you saying that I have no ability in the stand up range?

Michael O Leary

Pro. F wrote:

About punchers breaking there hands: it would appear (from my junior cert physics but i´m not 100% sure, twas 10yrs ago!) that if a puncher breaks his hand in a punch then most of the energy goes into the bones of his hand, not your head. so if this happens is he really hitting hard or is he just punching hard?

That is an subtle and potentially important point from Pro.F. The question is who is the hardest hitter (deliver the most powerful punch) not who can launch the most powerful punch.

Any comments,

Michael O'Leary
www.wingtsun-escrima.ie