RTÉ Colour Tests

watty

I'm please the old grey cells still work

http://www.tvhistory.btinternet.co.uk/html/ni.html
1967 Mar 18 Start of BBC2 transmissions (Divis)

1967 Nov First colour transmissions, on BBC2 (Divis)

Watty wrote:

I'm not sure but I think we did not have ANY BBC2 till 1967 (DIVIS). Though I think we might have had the Dual standard B&W TV a year or so before. It was about 1970 we got colour.

Milktrolley

Were BBC Two's facilities in black & white when they opened, or did they upgrade them before going colour in 1967. If they did the latter, that surely wouldn't have made much economical sense. Even TV3 have been prepared for digital since their 1998 launch.

watty

Probably the TX site didn't care. It would be a case of Belfast studios, testing feeds etc, The whole point of how NTSC, SECAM and PAL (all analogue systems) is that they are designed to use existing B&W system. Which is why separting the Colour and B&W part to NOT have crawly colour on herring bone B&W pattern and not have crawly pattern on bright colour is difficult. Don't forget 625 wasn't new. The BBC could and should have launched 625 after the War instead because 300 people had 405 line they stuck with the 1936 system.

France had 819 line. Everyone else apart from those American dominated went for 625. France did NOT do SECAM on 819 lines because the evil truth was they used PAL Colour on 625 in the studios! So SECAM was on 625 line never 819. Similarly they knew in UK that they would have to junk 405. They knew that the day thery restarted after the war.

So it's not the same as Analogue / Digital. All the BBC2 was only ever 625 line so it would all have been basically PAL compatible anyway.

lawhec

Milktrolley wrote:

Were BBC Two's facilities in black & white when they opened, or did they upgrade them before going colour in 1967. If they did the latter, that surely wouldn't have made much economical sense. Even TV3 have been prepared for digital since their 1998 launch.

BBC2 launched in 1964 when the UK was still undecided wherever to adopt PAL, NTSC or SECAM for its colour TV standard. As Watty says, inserting the colour sub-carrier into the chain is not that difficult, though it did mean that some transmitters were "upgraded" to carry BBC2 in colour from b&w, they were showing b&w even if the programme was colour.

The UK rolled out a brand new 625 line network on UHF to go alongside and eventually replace the 405 line network on VHF, it had much more of an upheavel with finding new sites, new masts etc. compared to somewhere like Germany where all the transmitters were already in place (they and most of Western Europe, with the notable exception of France, started 625 line services since the late 1940's to 1950's) and a colour rollout was quicker and more painless.

watty

Secam, then was only of the crawly line FM subcarrier flavour (As many flavours of SECAM as crisps as it is an inherently broken system). I don't think SECAM was a real runner.

NTSC was clever and simple, which is why then it was very very poor at hue stability. PAL while it has some of the NTSC problems because it is NTSC with one change, did not even then need a hue control or suffer from colour drift or hue errors. There was really no doubt that everyone other that those under French, Russian or American "influence" would choose PAL.

I suspect the BBC did not have initially the budget for Colour cameras or Colour production. The 405 line Image Orthicon camera gives a very good picture (then) and was easily produced in a 625 line Mono version I saw some still in use in 1978. One was used for the mechanical spinning globe.

I was showing this to my Girl friend (now Wife) and the front plate with the BBC1 NI logo fell off. I picked it up and put it on and just then the camera went live. The colour was artificial. It was clear ball (with light inside) with black paint for sea and a curved mirror behind. The presenter / continuity announcer could start it remotely. It only lit up and spun when on air.

In contrast the early colour cameras about 5 times the price and 4 times the size. They had a large prismatic unit to split the light to 3 image orthicon tubes. I think the earlist ones the tubes all at rightangles making it VERY bulky.

Of course the 2" ampex video recorders are another story... As are the 16mm and 35 mm telecine projectors with sepmag (separate 1/4" or 1/2" magnetic tape for sound track, can't remember the exact size).

Ulsterman 1690

Between about 1957 and 1965 the Beeb (and ITA) experimented with 405 and 625 versions of NTSC, PAL and even SECAM. For a while the BBC were advotcating 625 line NTSC while ITV wanted to use 405 line SECAM !

The BBC's biggest mistake was to use 405 after the war Interestingly after WW2 TF1 in France simulcasted on both 455 (pre war standard) and 819 (their ill fated "almost HDTV" system)

rlogue

In fact France used the 441 line standard from 1944 onwards, as this was left over in Paris by the German occupation forces for their Fernsehsender Paris station.

The 441 line standard was even more ill-fated than the 819 line standard as the sole transmitter in Paris was burnt out during a fire at the Eiffel Tower, in 1956, caused by the 441 line TV transmitter!

This allowed the French to scrap 441 line simulcasting of Télévision Francaise a year earlier than planned.

In less than 7 years 819 itself would start to become obsolete with the introduction of La Deuxieme Chaine on 625 UHF.

Ulsterman 1690

Doh ! Youre absolutely right

Paris TV was originally 455 but under German occupation changed down to 441 and remained on that standard (with 819 line simulcast) after WW2

Although I suspect the change between 455 and 441 was easily accomodated by a slight tweak to the recievers horizontal hold control

watty

Very likely.
Indeed 1960s TVs often needed Hor and Vert hold adjusted anyway.

Pat Gleeson

watty wrote:

Secam, then was only of the crawly line FM subcarrier flavour (As many flavours of SECAM as crisps as it is an inherently broken system). I don't think SECAM was a real runner.

NTSC was clever and simple, which is why then it was very very poor at hue stability. PAL while it has some of the NTSC problems because it is NTSC with one change, did not even then need a hue control or suffer from colour drift or hue errors. There was really no doubt that everyone other that those under French, Russian or American "influence" would choose PAL.

I suspect the BBC did not have initially the budget for Colour cameras or Colour production. The 405 line Image Orthicon camera gives a very good picture (then) and was easily produced in a 625 line Mono version I saw some still in use in 1978. One was used for the mechanical spinning globe.

I was showing this to my Girl friend (now Wife) and the front plate with the BBC1 NI logo fell off. I picked it up and put it on and just then the camera went live. The colour was artificial. It was clear ball (with light inside) with black paint for sea and a curved mirror behind. The presenter / continuity announcer could start it remotely. It only lit up and spun when on air.

We've said it before, and I'll say it again..

Write that book Watty !

I'm doing my pre-order now online, anyway :cool:

watty

I take paypal.

Happy New Year!

Pat Gleeson

watty wrote:

I take paypal.

Happy New Year!

You too, Watty, and everyone here at boards

P.s. the (PayPal) cheque is in the post ...

lensman

*EDITED*
I remember being a 7yr old kid at my brothers wedding in the spa hotel lucan, I watched the bobby Kennedy furneral in color, 1968, bbc or itv ?

rlogue

If it was 1968 and you saw it in colour, it was probably BBC 2. Since RTE broadcast exclusively in VHF in those days would there have been many colour sets that could receive RTE on 625 VHF in those days?

Incidentally I remember watching Doctor Who in colour in the Spa Hotel in Lucan round about 1971....

Ulsterman 1690

I watched the bobby Kennedy furneral in color, 1968, bbc or itv ?

It was probably BBC2 since ITV didnt go colour until 1969 (later in some regions)