Is there anything that can be done?

LegacyUser

Was in work today when 2 gaurds arrive to talk to me about a guy working for us. He is illegal ( unknown to us) and they had come to take him and deport him.They were meant to come back this afternoon with a few others and take him but rang and said they would not be back until late this week or early next week.

The thing is I feel so awful for this guy, I can't concentrate and I jump everytime someone drives in. I can't look him in the eye and just feel like crying everytime he walks past me or asks me something. He's only 25, he works so hard, never misses a minute of work, pays tax ( although I presume this is on a false pps number now) has just bought himself a car here and basically is doing nothing wrong.

The thing is I want to go and tell him to run, I honestly can't bear the thought of watching them drag him off in front of everyone but I can't tell him, I was told very nicely that would be aiding and abetting but my concience is at me, to just sit there letting him work away, knowing he'll never get paid for this week, it just seems so unfair when he is not doing any harm to anyone just trying to make a living.

Is there anything I can do? What would you do? Would I be in serious trouble for telling him or am I crazy to even entertain that thought? Am I just being too female letting my emotions rule my head? Should I just get on with it and realise thats life, I can't save/help everyone and he has made his own bed let him lie in it sort of thing?

Victor

feelinghelpless wrote:

knowing he'll never get paid for this week

Take him aside at some point and point this out to him.

Airblazer

tell him..how will they know or prove that you aided and abetted him..
and for all the people that will say but he's breaking the law..think of all the irish in the US and Australia amongst other places...

Chucky the tree

DO whatever you want to do. Asking a load of tossers on a internet forum wont help. We will all have different opinions on what to do, its up to oyu.

If the only reason your not doing it is because your worried you will be done, then dont worry. I'd recommend just leaving a note where he works annonomously(sp). This way that guards will have no proof you did it.

If you tell him and he is eventually caught, then he might tell them you told him. Dunno if the they would bother prosecuting but better to be safe then sorry.

horseflesh

Airblazer wrote:

tell him..how will they know or prove that you aided and abetted him..
and for all the people that will say but he's breaking the law..think of all the irish in the US and Australia amongst other places...

2 wrongs don't make a right.


Anyway, of course you can't tell him.

Davey Devil

Chucky the tree wrote:

If you tell him and he is eventually caught, then he might tell them you told him.

Why would he do this? I'm sure he'd be very greatful for your help. I personally wouldn't be afraid of the law. It's very hard to prove and it's not like your helping a terrorist. Personally I'd feel really guilty if I did nothing, far more guilty than any court could find me.

horseflesh

Chucky the tree wrote:

This way that guards will have no proof you did it.

Unless of course OP is the only person the Gardai spoke to about the situation.

horseflesh

Davey Devil wrote:

it's not like your helping a terrorist.

How do you know???

kittenkiller

You could always forward this thread onto him if he has email?

It's quite irresponsible of the guards to inform you about this & not follow up with some degree of urgency.
If he happens to call in sick for the rest of the week & then disappear, it couldn't be all down to you.

If questions are asked you could claim that someone saw the gardai leaving the premises & tipped him off.

Best of luck.
Make your decision based on what you feel you can live with.
I don't envy you.

hullaballoo

If I were you, I'd just cover my own ass. If he came here illegally, that's his problem. There's an asylum process, for which he obviously didn't apply, so don't get involved. There's too much at risk for you, it's just safer to stay on the right side of the law.

If you feel very strongly about it, you can start or join a campaign. They sometimes work, and it's a hell of a lot better then ending up with a record yourself.

Don't be foolish enough to think that the gardaí won't figure it out if you give him a heads up.

Nalz

this can be a touchy and argumentative subject for alot of people, but Hullaballoo is thinking in the right way when she says

hullaballoo wrote:

If I were you, I'd just cover my own ass.

Tough one I know, but ya dont get anywhere coverin 4 people all the time, especially in work

rugbug86

I wouldn't risk it just on the off-chance that you're the only one the guards have spoken to. then they'd know it was you.

its not your problem to be honest. fair enough you might be friends with him or whatever, but is helping him keep breaking the law really worth the risk of you losing everything you have? if the guards found out it was you it could have serious implications for you in later life, like if you get a criminal record.

I'd leave it be if i was you.

*Oul_Doll_Cork*

If it were me I would definatly tell him! Like what Airblazer said about us Irish working illegally in every country all over the world for god knows how long!!!

The gardaí wouldn't have enough proof to bring you up for anything!! Especially if you wrote the guy an annonomus letter!!
In saying that though.... I would much prefer to have a clear conscience anyway if it was a choice between my conscience and a bit of hassle with the law! But thats just me!

hullaballoo

Trilla wrote:

Hullaballoo is thinking in the right way when she says

It's the pink stars isn't it?

I'm a lad.

Edit/

ODC wrote:

The gardaí wouldn't have enough proof to bring you up for anything!! Especially if you wrote the guy an annonomus letter!!

Don't listen to this sort of thing. Of course the gardaí could work it out: it's their job, and believe it or not, the gardaí are well able to handle secret informants.

Ag marbh

Tell him for sure

junkyard

I don't think the Guards should have put you in that situation in the first place. Does anyone else know in your work place? If a few people know whats happening he should be told. Don't write any notes as they could be used against you. Its a horrible situation to be put in, totally unprofessional.

MojoMaker

OP, are you the owner of the business that is employing this person? What's your status in the company?

Nalz

hullaballoo wrote:

It's the pink stars isn't it?

I'm a lad.

sorry!!

Supercell

Why do emigration want to deport him ? , if its because of evil doings than no onus on you to "do the right thing".

However if hes just a guy that works hard, and is no threat to society..meet him in the jacks with a note..wave in face..flush down the bog...then deny deny deny

You did the right thing and if they asked you if you told him etc..you didnt SAY a word.

If its the right thing to do then do it, but job on line if you are not comfortable..he's in this situation like an irish worker in america, wouldnt expect an american to loose his or her job because of you, judgement call.

Jonny Arson

OP, best thing is be honest. I'm sorry you were put in this position but at the end of the day it is your workmates' problem not your's. Tell him and aiding him to run away will only get you in trouble. He's illegal and he has to deal with it himself. I've worked with illegal immigrants before, loved them to bits most of the time, but at the end of the day if I was in your position I would definitely tell them the scenario and leave them to deal with their problem.

LegacyUser

junkyard wrote:

I don't think the Guards should have put you in that situation in the first place. Does anyone else know in your work place? If a few people know whats happening he should be told. Don't write any notes as they could be used against you. Its a horrible situation to be put in, totally unprofessional.

I'm the only one that knows, they spoke to me in my office privately. It is a horrible situation to be put in, they had planned to take him today so I suppose they didn't mean to put me in this situation for so long,I have no idea why they are now putting it off for a few days.

LegacyUser

Mojomaker- yes I own the business.

Longfield- They want to deport him solely for the reason he is illegal here, he hasn't been involved in any criminal activity and thats whats killing me, he really is a good guy and like I said works so hard and it just seems so unfair.

Nevyn

Did you not check out his status and papers before employing him ?
Could you not sponsour him to stay ?
I would suggest you get some legal advice.

LegacyUser

Thaedydal wrote:

Did you not check out his status and papers before employing him ?
Could you not sponsour him to stay ?
I would suggest you get some legal advice.

He came from another job here in Ireland with a P45 and a pps number so it did seem he had everything in order. And yes I will see about getting legal advise tomorrow.

jimmycrackcorm

You'll get a load of crap from the guards as they'll obviously point the finger at you. But there is notihing to get upset at - after all it's not the worst thing in the world. How many Irish illegals have been deported back here from the states - was that so bad?

bobbyjoe

Ring him or say something like "gosh a lot of people are being deported these days" then leave a big long pause. He should get the hint.

Then you could swear in court you didn't tell him.

Victor

feelinghelpless wrote:

He came from another job here in Ireland with a P45 and a pps number so it did seem he had everything in order. And yes I will see about getting legal advise tomorrow.

You should have sought either his work permit or visa, you may be in legal difficulty on a number of grounds.

If it's your business, why won't you pay him for the next few days?

LegacyUser

Victor wrote:

You should have sought either his work permit or visa, you may be in legal difficulty on a number of grounds.

If it's your business, why won't you pay him for the next few days?

What I meant by that was everyone gets paid back a week so if they come say Monday and take him and he doesn't get paid till next Thursday how will he get his money for the work he done this week- I don't know the whole process so maybe I am wrong in thinking that I won't be able to get his money to him, I can't exactly go out and hand him 2 weeks wages this Thursday and give no reason, if he is still with us this Thursday even! Believe me if I can get his money to him he will be getting it.

hullaballoo

bobbyjoe wrote:

Ring him or say something like "gosh a lot of people are being deported these days" then leave a big long pause. He should get the hint.

I can honestly say I've never laughed at anything on boards more than I laughed at that.

Wasn't very helpful though, so shame on you.

Victor

Feelinghelpless wrote:

What I meant by that was everyone gets paid back a week so if they come say Monday and take him and he doesn't get paid till next Thursday how will he get his money for the work he done this week- I don't know the whole process so maybe I am wrong in thinking that I won't be able to get his money to him, I can't exactly go out and hand him 2 weeks wages this Thursday and give no reason, if he is still with us this Thursday even! Believe me if I can get his money to him he will be getting it.

Find someway to get his home / family address.

Chucky the tree

ihes getting deported, dont think he will be hugely worried about a weeks pay.

C_Breeze

TELLL HIIIIIMMMMMMM!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


seriously, tell him - im sure hell be very appreciative to you
youll gain good karma
and the Guards can do diddly squat.


take him aside and give him a quick 1minute run down of the situation, nobody will be able to porve anything.

"aiding and abbeting" ....... pffff yeah right, -scare mongereing .


edit: PM me his nr ill give him a call! - problem solved

UberNewb

Just goes to show that those Guards haven't got any brains. There's no way they should have told you why they wanted him. Anyway why not type up a letter and post it to his address if you feel that bad.

hullaballoo

Chucky the tree wrote:

ihes getting deported, dont think he will be hugely worried about a weeks pay.

If the OP is the owner of the business, he can give the chap a year's pay in advance if he wants

Chucky the tree

hullaballoo wrote:

If the OP is the owner of the business, he can give the chap a year's pay in advance if he wants

pay for work he wont be doing?!

LORDOFDOOM

If he really is as much of a stand-up guy as you say, then why not tell him? Don't be such a pussy about it, the guards will do nothing to you even if you did get caught - which you wont.

hullaballoo

Ctt wrote:

pay for work he wont be doing?!

Hyperbole.

breadmonkey

Tell him. Fcuk the consequences, if any. You'd want him to tell you if the roles were reversed, no? If the guy is as decent as you say he is then he deserves it.

Tusky

TELL HIM. He may of came here illegally but if hes working hard to make a new life for himself and is a decent guy he deserves to be told. I would anyway.

embee

Tell him. Take him aside, give him any pay owed to him and just tell him it might be worth his while to leave town. Tell him, then deny everything. He wouldn't be the first illegal immigrant to move to a different town at a moments notice. The cops won't be able to prove you had a word with him. All you say is that he didn't show up for work.

the_syco

feelinghelpless wrote:

Mojomaker- yes I own the business.

If you tell him, you have then:
Hired an illegal
Aided him to avoide immergration

and then be totally f*cked.

=-=

They proberly told you, just in case he comes back, so that you could ring them and let them know.

feelinghelpless wrote:

He came from another job here in Ireland with a P45 and a pps number so it did seem he had everything in order. And yes I will see about getting legal advise tomorrow.

So he was working in your company under a false name, with a false PPS number? Also, does the other company exist? Google it. I ask, as he could have paid someone money for his "new life".

Find someway to get his home / family address.

I thought this was funny. He's working under a PPS number, most likely someone else's, thus he's using their name... he may think your checking up on him, and just give another bogus address.

=-=

If you REALLY want to help him, read this: http://www.oasis.gov.ie/employment/working_in_ireland/work_permits.html

Also, bear in mind that if he faked his P45 and PPS number, his quailifications and refrences may also be fake, thus he may not be able todo everything you want him to do.

Binomate

Leave a note to him but don't let anyone know it's from you. Simple solution. You can't get in trouble this way and the guy gets away from the gardaí, hopefully.

turbot

I don't know the legality of this possibility, but it might be something worth considering if you want to help this guy:

Get your solicitor to review his details and "discover" that he has an invalid PPS number, etc.

Give him two weeks advance pay (which might come in handy if he needs legal assistance in dealing with deportation or facing wherever he is sent back to).

Then line up your solicitor to deal with him and bring him in to the office with your solicitor, and say "It appears that you are not working legally. How could you have tricked me? And to think, I just gave you two weeks advance pay (wink wink)...."

Perhaps you can help him, without informing him of his situation with the police and his imminent deportation?

kopijack

Give him the sack with full pay and tell him your doing it because you have reason to believe he is working under an illegal status?

Surely that is within the rights of your business

Dustaz

christ, just tell him and deny everything later. How exactly are the guards going to prove you told him? with their secret spy network which monitors our every move?

meditraitor

kopijack wrote:

Give him the sack with full pay and tell him your doing it because you have reason to believe he is working under an illegal status?

Surely that is within the rights of your business

This is the way to do it without the guards having any comeback against you, and you can feel like you have done the right thing.....

Make sure you tell him they are on to him!!! Give him a chance to get his shit in order(or do a legger).

py2006

Too be honest with ya, it actually sounds like the guards are giving you the time to tell him and get rid of him.

They probably don't want the hassle. If it was that important they would have gotten him straight away.

They no damn well that word will probably get to him by now.

Maybe they are giving you the chance to do something about it.

LegacyUser

This is a tricky one. The Gardai likely told you (OP) for the simple reason since as he is already doing something illegal, your business assets are under threat, eg: if he does a runner he could easily steal something. Also, they are probably waiting to pick him up as they have to get a court order and decision from the Dept/Minister as well as a flight arranged before they can round him up at 6.00am or whatever, bring him to the airport and have him back in his own country before he hits the ground. They normally dont hold deportees for very long, its a smash, grab and deport approach.

For you, its a moral dilemma. He has broken the law, as he is working here illegally and is not using his own PPS number. If his PPS number was checked properly with the authority, that may have shown up. But its whether you consider what he has done as a big crime or a white lie. For example, is it analagous to driving at 81 km in an 80 zone or is it much much worse.

And as others have alluded to, if you had connections who were illegal in the US or whever in years gone past, and they got "help" from their employer or other citizens, is it time you paid that favour back "in kind"?

If you do help him out, you wont be a saint in the eye of the law, but you may be a saviour to him. However, will he have to go "on the run/undercover" and is that likely to make his life worse than if he was deported, etc?

only you can decide ....

waterfaerie

Firstly, I don't think the guards have the right to put you in such a position.
Secondly, I do think you really should tell him. I'd choose humanity over the law any day. They may know it was you, and they may give you hassle, but they'll never be able to prove it.

hullaballoo

waterfaerie wrote:

Firstly, I don't think the guards have the right to put you in such a position.
Secondly, I do think you really should tell him. I'd choose humanity over the law any day. They may know it was you, and they may give you hassle, but they'll never be able to prove it.

Contradicted yourself there chap. If you don't think the guards have a right to put him in that situation (which they do), then you must think that they are in some way amenable to the law (which they aren't). Then you said you'd choose humanity over the law.

Back on topic, is there any word on the outcome of all of this?

horseflesh

This woman has hired a foreign national
[George Costanza]not that there's anything wrong with that[/George Costanza]
seemingly without doing much of a background check.
It turns out the guy is in the country illegally and is due to be deported.
The Gardai inform his employer, our esteemed OP, of this situation and reasonably IMO expect her to stay on the right side of the law.

I can't believe so many people are recommending that the OP tells this guy! Are you all insane!??!??
He is IN THE WRONG. He has broken a law of the land, whether you agree with it or not.
He's made his bed, now it's time to pay the piper.

Also, the OP is the only person the Gardai spoke to, in confidence I presume. If Mr Illegal out of the blue legs it, fingers will be pointed squarely at her, they won't need Inspector Morse on that case.