Any info on RTE DTT trials?

Alun

Just wondering whether anyone knew anything amore about these, as they're supposedly starting in early 2006? I've got direct line of sight to Three Rock about 9km's away, so if they were transmitting anything, I'd be able to pick it up, no problem. Also any chance that a UK Freeview box would work in that scenario?

Mossy Monk

sorry to add more onto this but they are DAB trials going on atm

Alun

Mossy Monk wrote:

sorry to add more onto this but they are DAB trials going on atm

I was asking about DTT (i.e. Digital Terrestrial Television) trials, not DAB radio. I can get a Freeview box for nothing off a relative of mine in the UK, and was wondering whether it'd be worth my while, just to do a bit of experimenting out of curiosity.

Thank you mossy I'm glad one of us is awake today

Now whats that tractor doing in the living room

Mossy Monk

Alun wrote:

I was asking about DTT (i.e. Digital Terrestrial Television) trials, not DAB radio

i know that but Earthman didnt

the only trials going on atm are for DAB. there is nothing for DTT yet sadly

Sponge Bob

Mossy Monk wrote:

the only trials going on atm are for DAB. there is nothing for DTT yet sadly

there was an RTE DTT trial ongoing from none other than 3 Rock last year and the year before .

Did they decide that Digital would never really catch on and cease the trial ??

Links

http://www.rte.ie/business/2005/0629/digital.html

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=161712

It may not have been fully freeview compliant though

Alun

That second link is from 2004, and if it's true that it was ongoing for nearly two years (!), they certainly kept it very quiet.

Here is the post that provoked my original question, where there's talk of a trial starting in early 2006. Also a mention here.

watty

No money.
originally trials done LONG AGO.
Rte was to do it.
Then Gov. decided it had to be put to tender.
Then ITV Digital fell over
Then only one company (much later wanted it). They either were ejits or optimists and thought the RF back channel and fwd interactive could be made into BB wireless Internet.
The Gov or whoever didn't beleive they had the money and also said you'd have no BB licence.
The system would not support BB, just low baud rate user interaction (click on red to vote/buy/order film etc).
The sole bidder then pulled out claiming "Foul" we thought we could sell Wireless BB. Everyone else thought they pluuled out due to lack of capital. They never got approval.

No-one has offered to buy lincence since.

RTE still hasn't got the money.

L1011

RTE not having the money is the very reason that its not RTE that are going to do the next trials, lads

Its the state.

Department of Communications, Marine and Natual Resources are going to do a trial themselves, albeit from RTE's masts and probably carrying nothing but RTENL carried channels initially, but its not RTE doing it.

watty

RTE on their site wrote:

The Government is inviting expressions of interest for the infrastructural elements of the pilot.

In a statement, the Minister said he was committed to the long-term provision of a free-to-air digital terrestrial television platform. He said most countries in Europe were starting to switch over from analogue terrestrial transmission to digital.

Ah, ha! They are still looking for someone to pay. The "trails" are to provoke interest. The system was proven years before the last "so called trails".

Perhpas to confince EU we are doing someting and it's not Bertie's fault it no-one wants to pay for it.

a bientot

It would appear that this webpage is worth watching......
http://www.dvb.org/about_dvb/dvb_worldwide/ireland/

DMC

Give the mods here a gentle poke, I find....

As I said recently in this thread

DTT is on the way, slowly. It will be DVB-T.

The department of communications are dealing with it...
Basically, on this site, this is where we are..

http://www.dcmnr.gov.ie/Broadcasting/DTT+Pilot.htm

Alun

Thanks guys for all the info.

Telefís

It's been the State all the way on this - RTÉ have been very pro-active, launching their first DTT document in 1995! :eek: :eek:
Their first concrete proposal was in 1997!
It was envisaged to start up at the end of 1999!
Then early 2001!

Then the world fell apart with ITV Digital.
I think government's, more to the point Fianna Fáil's, interest in broadcasting is encapsulated in the fact that when Sile de Valera came into office as Minister for Comms in May 1997, she didn't meet with the national broadcaster, the most influential communicatons orgainstion in the state, for SEVEN MONTHS! It wasn't until Jan 1998 that she finally met with the RTÉ Authority for the first time. It beggars belief.

Likewise all of 1999 and half of 2000 was consumed with squabbling and inaction by government over RTÉ's trnasmission network. I've no doubt that had Michael D Higgins been in Government at the time, and in the capacity as Min for Comms as he was before, we would have a DTT system up and running by now. It would have gotton through before the dotcom crash ever happened, or we would have it in some form or other now.

What is of major concern now is that the BBC Freesat at this stage ought to be invading into MMDS territory at the moment - there's no need for those households to subscribe to MMDS any longer - whwtaever about Sky and its influence on things.

And the other major issue is what happens next year when RTÉ's contract with Sky ends? Will they take the free-to-air option, just like the BBC, ITV and shortly Channel 4?
If they do (esp given how uncomfortable their relationship with Sky is), it will be the first time ever that all the staples of televison in Ireland, i.e. RTÉ 1, RTÉ 2, TV3, TG4, BBC1, BBC 2, BBC 3, BBC 4, ITV, Ch4 and maybe Five, as well as News 24 etc will be available to the majority of Irish households free to air! What will that do for any DTT system?!?

It is a complete and utter joke that it is 2006 and basic consumer trials have not even begun yet. If the highly specialised group set up in RTÉ way back in 1995 knew that then, they'd have shot themselves.
It's been TEN YEARS. And it looks like it's going to be 12 beofre we have anyhting resembling a basic service.

And it's nearly all thanks to Government and their disgraceful lack of interest in Irish broadcasting. Things are cutting very fine at this stage. Sky subscriptions are soaring, and Freesat is ever-increasing its penetration.

Mossy Monk

Telef&#237 wrote: »

Will they take the free-to-air option, just like the BBC, ITV and shortly Channel 4?

i don't remember Channel 4 making this announcement. can you tell me when?

watty

I think the RTE / Sky deal has another few years to go.

There are options for Irish TV on Satellite other than the current crazy deal. But Free To Air isn't one of them.

Now that Sky is promoting FTV (they seemed to hate it when is was BBC/ITV), the possibility of Sky covering the imaginary cost of FTV for RTE in a new deal isn't impossible.

In fact as I understand it, Sky can do whatever they like as long as Irish TV is limited to Ireland by encryption. Sky can unilatterally decide today to make RTE FTV if it suited them (Chorus/NTL or Free To Air Sat competiton).

Sky is now embracing the FTV concept BECAUSE of BBC/ITV FTA.

Telefís

What about RTÉ making use of the BBC's Astra 2? Is there space there - how would that set-up work out if possible?
There will be growing pressure on RTÉ to go FTA in one form or another, esp in light of its widescreen services only being available via subscription, a completely imbalanced and unsustainable state of affairs. Once News goes widescreen in Sept, this will only get worse.

Mossy, I assumed Ch4 would be moving on to FTA in the next two years or so - is this not what is proposed?

Mossy Monk

Telef&#237 wrote: »

Mossy, I assumed Ch4 would be moving on to FTA in the next two years or so - is this not what is proposed?

Channel 4 have never released anything saying they are going FTA. although Film Four is going to be non premium it will more than likely be FTV on satellite as C4 dont have clearance rights for satellite

Telefís

Is this only a matter of time though considering they're available in two thirds of Irish homes anyway on an unofficial basis?

watty

Rte is on 2D and always has been.

UK TV has been received in Ireland since before RTE
Even before Satellite maybe 70% can get BBC/ITV

UK is near 60 Million viewers

Ireland is about 3 million?

So "rights" for UK has kind of covered Ireland anyway.

RTE has never been much received in UK.

UK is maybe 20 times bigger.

The 2D beam covers British Isles, not just Ireland (never minding the big dishes in Northern Italy etc, or excellent reception in France/ Belgium etc).

There is no way Irish Broadcasters can kind of ignore the UK viewing numbers when paying for Rights if FTA. Really it was no big deal the other way round for BBC & ITV.

watty

Telef&#237 wrote: »

Is this only a matter of time though considering they're available in two thirds of Irish homes anyway on an unofficial basis?

Nowadays unlike past, MMDS/Cable carriage of UK televison is totally offical and paid for. Originally it wasn't.

lawhec

Mossy Monk wrote:

Channel 4 have never released anything saying they are going FTA. although Film Four is going to be non premium it will more than likely be FTV on satellite as C4 dont have clearance rights for satellite

Channel 4's encryption contract on satellite is due to last until sometime in 2008. It appears odds on that it will then go like the BBC and ITV and drop its encryption with a move of all services to Astra 2D in the process.

Mossy Monk

Northern Correspondent wrote:

Channel 4's encryption contract on satellite is due to last until sometime in 2008. It appears odds on that it will then go like the BBC and ITV and drop its encryption with a move of all services to Astra 2D in the process.

i have that feeling myself but all i am saying is that they have made no announcement regarding it

lawhec

Mossy Monk wrote:

i have that feeling myself but all i am saying is that they have made no announcement regarding it

True - it'll be an important time when it happens though - that year sees the start of the terrestial analogue switchoff in the UK with the Border regions to go first. Promoting a FTA satellite system which includes the four main channels would be a big help. Sky however would like to see Channel 4 and Five stay with encryption as they're really the only reason now to invest with Freesat from Sky with the FTV card included (with Sky Three thrown in for good measure too). Were Four to go FTA that would be a blow to Sky, Five too would be a disaster, as its a poor secret that Sky are pushing their own Freesat so that the gate is left open for potential subscribers. With a FTA only non Sky-digibox receiver that ain't gonna happen. I can't remember what year Five are contracted up to though.

Should C4 and 5 go FTA, expect Sky Three to also do so as Sky now seem to have an interest in a FTA entertainment channel in the UK (particulary for Freeview) and they're doing a hell of a better job with it than Fletchtech do for FTN - heck, I'm watching Sky Three more than Sky One on satellite!:eek:

Edit: Been reading that Five's encryption contract also ends sometime in 2008.

Sponge Bob

Northern Correspondent wrote:

Channel 4's encryption contract on satellite is due to last until sometime in 2008. It appears odds on that it will then go like the BBC and ITV and drop its encryption with a move of all services to Astra 2D in the process.

And they will have migrated bought in stuff that could overflow onto More4 and E4 and Film4 leaving just the news and Big Brother FTA . It will probably be free but it will be unwatchable by then

Watchable C4 spinoffs will be encrypted after 2008 . It would not surprise me a bit if Sly3 and Channel 5 became the same thing by 2008 either...just a hunch mind !

Telefís

Here's a stupid question.

Is there any satellite floating about up there that just covers Ireland?! Or is there any other service provider other than Sky that RTÉ could use to encrypt its services just for Ireland, even if their footprint covers the UK too?

Sponge Bob

Telef&#237 wrote: »

Here's a stupid question.
Is there any satellite floating about up there that just covers Ireland?!

An AEROSTAT is all you need to cover Ireland . There is special spectrum for them...even.

lawhec

Sponge Bob wrote:

And they will have migrated bought in stuff that could overflow onto More4 and E4 and Film4 leaving just the news and Big Brother FTA . It will probably be free but it will be unwatchable by then

Watchable C4 spinoffs will be encrypted after 2008 . It would not surprise me a bit if Sly3 and Channel 5 became the same thing by 2008 either...just a hunch mind !

The encryption contract Channel 4 has covers all of their spin-offs. Channel 4 were very keen to have E4 on FTA after it launched on Freeview but couldn't do so and More 4 couldn't go FTV because the encryption contract stated that it had to be a pay channel on Sky. The main broadcasters in the UK are moving towards multi-channel families of FTA channels. The BBC already have, ITV have, Channel 4 have on the most practical basis possible at the moment while Five are looking to launch two spinoff channels in the next few months.

Also Channel 5 / Five are now wholly owned by the RTL group, so a merger with Sky three ranks between slim and none.

Is there any satellite floating about up there that just covers Ireland?! Or is there any other service provider other than Sky that RTÉ could use to encrypt its services just for Ireland, even if their footprint covers the UK too?

Depending on how watertight the contract is with Sky, there is the option for RTÉ to dual-encrypt with another encryption method like Irdeto or Viaccess where a cheap CAM could be added to a CI slot on a satellite receiver along with an authorised card. That way RTÉ could be viewed on satellite without having to touch Videoguard. IIRC ORF in Austria are Triple-encrypted!

watty

No-one has proved Aerostats are viable. Nice idea though.

There was a Satellite for Ireland but we sold it to the Vikings. (MarcoPolo?).

Yes there are alternatives. Sky doesn't actually have the satellites here. They rent transponders from Eutelsat (Some on Eurobird) and from SES-Astra (Some on Astra 2D, 2A and 2B).

About 20 satellite "slots" (many have multiple beams and or multiple Satellites) are possible to Ireland. Astra 2D (which RTE is already using) has the smallest beam pointed at British Isles.

Smaller beams are possible with new satellites and is the trend (to re-use frequency and carry more programs per orbit slot). An Eliptical beam for 45cm dish just for Island of Ireland would likely be still recievable in UK, France, Low countries etc on 80cm rising to 1.1m as you go east. No doubt 3m dishes in some places more South or East judging by Astra 2D performance.

There are much cheaper encryption than NDS videocrypt (Viaccess as used by BBC Enterprises selling BBC Prime), but a Sky box won't work.

A box for Viaccess can use other systems EXCEPT Sky's NDS videocrypt.

Do you see the problem RTE has?

Do you see why BBC FROM THE BEGINNING always intended to be FTA. They and ITV have a big enough intentional market that Continental viewers can be ignored.

Also on wider beam when BBC was encrypted people bought the FTV card and used it as far away as Turkey and Eqypt!

It is a myth that Encryption limits reception, but it is one that Sports and Hollwood etc pretend to beleive as it allows them to resell the same material to many different European providers.

Even with a smaller beam "overspill" to UK is too obvious and too easy with a moderate dish.

In reality about 5 or 6 satellite slots have beams that allow 65cm Sky Zone 2 dish. It isn't going to happen as no Sat service for Irish TV that needs a separate dish to BBC/ ITV and Sky Sports is going to be viable.

L1011

watty wrote:

There was a Satellite for Ireland but we sold it to the Vikings. (MarcoPolo?).

More accurately, we "lent" British Sky Broadcasting our 5 frequency allocations at 31W under the 1977 ITU allocation, and MarcoPolo 2 used them. whatever channels were on #4, #5 and the blank carrier on BSB used Irish frequencies. Its beam was smaller than 2D and dropped off quite spectacularly half-way across Ireland, going from Squarial (30-something cm plate antenna) in Dublin to 60-80cm normal dish minimum in the west.

Sky sold the satellite to either NSAB or Sirius, not sure which, in 1993. By which time the ITU plan had fallen to peices and some countries, such as the UK, had four times as many channels as the ITU slots allowed and were broadcasting not only on different frequencies but from different parts of the sky entirely...

Additionally, its VideoGUARD. Videocrypt was the old line rotation analogue system that only Sky used, VideoGuard is NDS's system that Sky, Sky Italia, Viasat and others use.

Telefís

Right thanks. So what's the main issue blocking RTÉ from going FTA covering just the RoI - is it impossible/difficult to get boxes that would encrypt like that, or is it getting the service provider to do it and/or the satellite to do it?

Excuse the utter ignorance here.

Ulsterman 1690

More accurately, we "lent" British Sky Broadcasting our 5 frequency allocations at 31W under the 1977 ITU allocation, and MarcoPolo 2 used them. whatever channels were on #4, #5 and the blank carrier on BSB used Irish frequencies

Now I AM confused

WARC1977 allocated five frequencies to every country in Europe regardless of size. Ireland and the UK had five each. Why therfore did BSB want to "borrow" Irish frequencies when they had five perfectly good ones of their own

Incidently its an oft forgotton fact that E-sat were et up to bid for the Irish DBS franchise* (which was subsequently awarded to some lot called "Atlantic Satellites") and E-sat subsequently moved into radio (98FM Dublin) and telecoms (DigiFone) when they didnt get the Satellite contract

* = Its a bit wierd that this ill-fated franchise was awarded before there was ever any legislation in Ireland to provide for Independent broadcasting

L1011

Ulsterman 1690 wrote:

Now I AM confused

WARC1977 allocated five frequencies to every country in Europe regardless of size. Ireland and the UK had five each. Why therfore did BSB want to "borrow" Irish frequencies when they had five perfectly good ones of their own

Incidently its an oft forgotton fact that E-sat were et up to bid for the Irish DBS franchise* (which was subsequently awarded to some lot called "Atlantic Satellites") and E-sat subsequently moved into radio (98FM Dublin) and telecoms (DigiFone) when they didnt get the Satellite contract

* = Its a bit wierd that this ill-fated franchise was awarded before there was ever any legislation in Ireland to provide for Independent broadcasting

Because BSB launched two five transponder satellites, and due to whacking up the output power, could only run three tx's on each; meaning they needed to use two of our frequencies (satellites weren't reconfigurable back then) to broadcast their five channels. Coincidentally they had configured Marcopolo 2 to the Irish frequencies :rolleyes:

Edit:

Ack, never mind, I've found the list of channels they actually used and they were the UK allocations, they Irish ones were unused... so it seems they put 3UK/2IE, 2UK/3IE configurations on the two birds. The other five were definately on our 5 allocations - 11747, 11823, 11900, 11977, 12054 - though.

watty

Sorry I'm always mixing up Videocrypt and Videoguard.

The first Astra Satellite at 28.2 used by Sky Digital was pinching Eutelsat's slot.

Astra had to pay compensation. This is also why some Sky channels are on Eurobird.

That slot was for Central Europe.

There are various kinds of allocations..

Frequencies. These tend to be common for a platform but channels, be allocated on national/geographic bases

Slots. Someone decides which companies can put which satellites where in sky. Also a slot may have multiple beams re-using the same frequencies for different geographic areas.

The same area may be illuminated by 30 different Satellites on SAME frequency too, as long as the angle separation means the dish only sees one at a time.


FTA means no encryption. No-one has a suitable beam (yet).

FTV means encryption. But Sky won't allow other encryptions on its box nor allow a CAM for its Videoguard system on anyone elses box.

It would be economic suicide to try to convince Irish home they need two boxes if they want RTE and Sky Sports. If a different satellite was used, then TWO dishes to get BBC and RTE even on the same receiver.

If two boxes on one dish you need a dual or quad LNB instead of the standard LNB.

Basically because of Sky's very dominant position you either go FTA (no encryption, works on Sky box or any box with no card) or Sky Platform encryption. (Either free for RTE and customer pays: current deal, or Freeish for customer and RTE pays 40 million, because Sky decides the price and rules.)

Telefís

Thanks for that watty - very helpful!

On a related issue, what was the fundamental reason does anyone know that caused the DTT project that had been worked on so avidly, to collapse c.2000? Obviously there was delay after delay etc, but considering it happened way before the collapse of ITV Digital what caused it in Ireland?

How did we suddenly turn from such optimism in 1999-2000 to disaster c.2001? Did the value of the RTÉ transmission network fall through the floor, were investors wary of commiting funds post-dotcom crash or what?

As of 2006 is RTÉ still to hold a 33% stake in the new transmission company, and is there still going to be a seperate multiplex operator?

Sponge Bob

Telef&#237 wrote: »

Did we suddenly turn from such optimism in 1999-2000 to disaster c.2001? Did the value of the RTÉ transmission network fall through the floor, were investors wary of commiting funds post-dotcom crash or what?

Correct, ITV freeview not doing great was another part of it and there was never a firm cut off date (like in the UK ) for analogue.

As of 2006 is RTÉ still to hold a 33% stake in the new transmission company, and is there still going to be a seperate multiplex operator?

there will be another multiplex operator , maybe even 2 or 3 of them .

dunno about shareholdings.

Psychedelik

Yea it's a real pity that RTE DTT never got off the ground.

I find it ironic that it didn't because of industry pressure, a la TV3. ITV own 50% of TV3 and ITV Digital failed mainly because of Sky's strongarm presence. How ironic! And ITV prevented RTE's offering!

Now there's no real competition in the Digital TV market; NTL and co. are practically retailers for Sky.

watty

Timeline pinched from BBC
Jan 1997: BSkyB, Carlton and Granada form British Digital Broadcasting
June 1997: BSkyB told to quit project
Aug 1998: BDB renamed ONdigital
Nov 1998: ONdigital starts broadcasting
Apr 2001: rebranded as ITV Digital
Sep 2001: Sum invested hits £788m
Feb 2002: ITV Digital shake-up revealed
Mar 2002: Administrators called in
May 2002: Pay-TV services switched off

There was a Spanish DTT collapse too. It is only now getting going.

The original show was supposed to be all RTE, but they didn't have cash. And then when it was offered for tender no-one wanted it, is my memory. Maybe we need to Google on Irish News a bit.

Telefís

I'm reading an informative book on it. In 2000, just before the 2001 Act was passed it was finally agreed that RTÉ would have a 33% share in the trans company - just a shareholder/s for the remaining 67% were needed. The multiplex operation was to go out to tender. Then the book ends!!! :mad:

There's a hole between what happened between then and the ITV collapse!

Sponge Bob

Telef&#237 wrote: »

what happened between then and the ITV collapse!

a veritable abyss opened up and swallowed everything , twas Mary O Rourke

Telefís

Who else, who else...

DMC

Was the bauld Mar in charge of communications before Dermot Ahern? Would it not have been covered by Síle Dee before the creation of the present dept?

Telefís

Oh it was Síle alright DMC - just you have to blame Mary for everything that's wrong in the world. Didn't you know?

Sponge Bob

Mary O'Rourke was in charge of ODTR in 2001 / 2002 (now Comreg) .

ODTR was in charge of spectrum allocation and policy as ye can see .

Spectrum is what you need for DTT .

Sile was concurrently the minister for Arts and Heritage and Wotsits including RTE who would have had to apply for spectrum to broadcast but the spectrum itself along with the spectrum use policy was a Mary O'Rourke disaster of the 'black' kind.

DMC

Yes, thats right.
Pre-'02, as Minister for Public Enterprise, she was in charge of the techincal aspects of communication, like the eircom sell-off and the setting up of the ODTR. Whereas Ms. DeV was in charge of the broadcasting policy. Bit of a balls at the time, its all under the one roof now.

Sponge Bob

its still a balls , read my sig

Conor1

it it possible to get the other channels BBC world and BBC prime in the republic of ireland? i have been able to view them abroad and was wondering if they can be tuned in on the sky digibox?

watty

Conor1 wrote:

it it possible to get the other channels BBC world and BBC prime in the republic of ireland? i have been able to view them abroad and was wondering if they can be tuned in on the sky digibox?

BBC World: Sort of

The 28E that the Digibox points at does not have BBC World or BBC Prime (BBC News24 is on it though).

You would need a slightly larger dish (for rain) and to move it west to 13E or 19E instead.


BBC Prime: This is a viaaccess card subscription channel. The viewing card won't work in a Digibox. It is also on 13E.

I get various "copies" of BBC World on 13E and 19E. One on 13E has the BBC Teletext news pages.

The Sky Digibox is not very good for anything other than Sky.

The BBC does not put these channels on Sky as they are commercial BBC Enterprises with Adverts, so in UK they have to use different satellite position. Also you can't subscribe to BBC prime in the UK.

With BBC1 .. BBC4, CBBC, Cbbeebies, BBC News 24, BBC parliament and all BBC regions and nations and radio stations on UK epg (possible on ROI sky box easily) or via other "channels" on ROI card why would you want to pay for BBC Prime?

13E is worth getting, A FTA system costing 150 Euro to 200 Euro (or add 100 Euro for motor to get about 20 satellites) with an 80cm dish, will give many excellent free channels not on Sky.

Antenna

Speaking of RTE DTT trials, I remember being told, a good few years ago at this stage, that RTE transmitted some DTT tests from Mullaghanish. I don't know what UHF channels they used, I suspect they may have used the TnaG/TG4 UHF Channel 31 overnight after TnaG programmes finished.
I think this was around the time of the initial DTT testing in the Dublin area.

L1011

Mullangish is allocated channels 22, 25, 28, 32, 30 and 34, horizontally polarised for digital. I would assume they used one of these, as the Three Rock enternally on-and-off tests used the channel allocated for Mux 6 - 34 in Mullaganish's case.