Advertisement
If you have a new account but are having problems posting or verifying your account, please email us on hello@boards.ie for help. Thanks :)
Hello all! Please ensure that you are posting a new thread or question in the appropriate forum. The Feedback forum is overwhelmed with questions that are having to be moved elsewhere. If you need help to verify your account contact hello@boards.ie
Hi there,
There is an issue with role permissions that is being worked on at the moment.
If you are having trouble with access or permissions on regional forums please post here to get access: https://www.boards.ie/discussion/2058365403/you-do-not-have-permission-for-that#latest

Is instinct stronger than reason?

  • 08-01-2006 2:52pm
    #1
    Closed Accounts Posts: 10,730 ✭✭✭✭


    Which one wins out when it comes down to it and your head is on the line?

    I'd say instinct does win out but let this AH poll decide for once and for all!

    Is instinct stronger than reason? 106 votes

    Instinct is stronger than reason
    0%
    Reason is stronger than instinct
    59%
    Cake FiendBossArkyTheWolfpeckerheadPauljRabiesDooomRobertFosterpretty*monstersimuOrielIagoSuaimhneachFranky BoyZuluKingp35ShabaduskibumLamiajoe_chicken 63 votes
    Atari Jaguar
    28%
    WhiteWashManD-GenerateCivilian_Targetpork99MackerXcom2CrucifixeirebhoyPeaceT-b0n3SleepyTime MagazinezodApeXaviourWillymuncherMr.Nice GuyTar.AldarionGone Westpbsuxok1znja4r*dream09* 30 votes
    Hmm...
    12%
    HobbesastrofoolMossy MonkThe Song Thrushbp_meWellyJCerebralCortex[Jackass]Dagnir GlaurungSam VimesbikoLovelyHurlingjay-me 13 votes


«1

Comments

  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,165 ✭✭✭DEmeant0r


    simu wrote:
    Which one wins out when it comes down to it and your head is on the line?

    I'd say instinct does win out but let this AH poll decide for once and for all!
    Sometimes you don't have enough time to make a proper choice with reason, so you just go with your instinct, I picked hmm...


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,333 ✭✭✭Cake Fiend


    Reason is stronger than instinct
    Push come to shove, I'd say instinct, but the relative strength of instinct to reason would depend on the person. Some people seem to be so naturally logically-minded that you'd wonder.

    Another interesting question might be which would win out between natural instinct and something that has become 'learned' instinct.


  • Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Social & Fun Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 60,113 Mod ✭✭✭✭Tar.Aldarion


    Atari Jaguar
    In a lot of cases instinct would win out but it varies from person to person.
    If you have a phobia of mice, os spiders in Ireland...your instinct is winning out I suppose. I see some peoples unreasonable fears and paranoia and I know instinct is controlling them.
    As humans progress, reason is winning more and more...well sometimes.
    Violence is now controlled better, as with sexual urges, both of these are very strong pychological instincts.
    I would hope to say that I am a most reasonable person and rarely let instinct get the better of me.
    Hopefully reason will win out.
    When it comes down to it, reason/logic for me but I know people who are quite different.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,440 ✭✭✭Dizzyblabla


    Reason is stronger than instinct
    I think instinct too, although, I think my reason should be listened to more often!


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 1,735 ✭✭✭ST*


    Atari Jaguar
    Everyone deals with things differently. I listen to reason though.


  • Advertisement
  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 62 ✭✭Lamia


    Reason is stronger than instinct
    I went with instinct, i would have thought that people's powers of reasoning can be flawed?
    As said above, some people have an instinctive fear of spiders without any apparent reason for it.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,647 ✭✭✭impr0v


    The answer is largely dependent on the time in which the choice has to be made. Initially my instinct said to click the instinct option, but then after a while I reasoned that reason would be the more reasonable choice.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 1,735 ✭✭✭ST*


    Atari Jaguar
    Lux16 wrote:
    i would have thought that people's powers of reasoning can be flawed?As said above, some people have an instinctive fear of spiders without any apparent reason for it.

    Why flawed? (out of interest)
    Fear of spiders is different, thats a learned response.


  • Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Social & Fun Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 60,113 Mod ✭✭✭✭Tar.Aldarion


    Atari Jaguar
    impr0v wrote:
    The answer is largely dependent on the time in which the choice has to be made. Initially my instinct said to click the instinct option, but then after a while I reasoned that reason would be the more reasonable choice.
    Fear of the unknown and what is different from humans is instinctive, 'kill it!!!'
    Reasoning lets you overcome violent instincts such as this.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 12,211 ✭✭✭✭Sangre


    The basic instincts of survival and reproduction dictate how we do everything whether we know it or not.


  • Advertisement
  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 62 ✭✭Lamia


    Reason is stronger than instinct
    Why flawed? (out of interest)
    Fear of spiders is different, thats a learned response.

    Well i was thinking along the lines of murders, psychopaths etc..they reason with themselves that what they're doing is okay.

    id be more likely to trust my instinct because i dont have the best powers of reasoning! :D
    How is fear of spiders a learned response? it's just that they dont harm you so why would you be scared of them?


  • Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Social & Fun Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 60,113 Mod ✭✭✭✭Tar.Aldarion


    Atari Jaguar
    Lux16 wrote:
    How is fear of spiders a learned response? it's just that they dont harm you so why would you be scared of them?
    Fear of the unknown and what is different from humans is instinctive, 'kill it!!!'
    Reasoning lets you overcome violent instincts such as this.
    .


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 62 ✭✭Lamia


    Reason is stronger than instinct
    Missed that one :o

    fair point.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 955 ✭✭✭LovelyHurling


    Hmm...
    Sangre wrote:
    The basic instincts of survival and reproduction dictate how we do everything whether we know it or not.

    Think you're right there, like the theory that women have a wider field of vision and prefer a dimly lit space because they were traditionally the nest builders and protectors. And that men have a better focal vision and are more likely to feel comfortable in bright light than females because of their traditional hunter-gatherer role.

    Then again if you think of that guy who was sandwiched between rocks in the desert a few years ago, he had enough reason to amputate himself to freedom despite what must have been against some of man's strongest instincts compelling him not to do so


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,333 ✭✭✭Cake Fiend


    Reason is stronger than instinct
    Lux16 wrote:
    How is fear of spiders a learned response?

    A phobia is developed, rather than being innate.

    Other people's replies made me realize I wasn't specific enough with mine - I was thinking along the lines of a split-second decision where there's not enough time to logically validate an option.

    If we're talking about more of the 'gut-feeling' type of instinct, then I'd (personally) side with reason.

    So I suppose instinct is stronger in the very short term, reason (for me at least) in the longer term.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 944 ✭✭✭NoDayBut2Day


    Atari Jaguar
    impr0v wrote:
    The answer is largely dependent on the time in which the choice has to be made. Initially my instinct said to click the instinct option, but then after a while I reasoned that reason would be the more reasonable choice.

    Same here.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 45,643 ✭✭✭✭Mr.Nice Guy


    Atari Jaguar
    Reason.

    I'm a bit worried about the number of people who chose instinct.

    I wouldn't want to get on the wrong side of you lot after you've had a few beers...


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 27,856 ✭✭✭✭Dave!


    Atari Jaguar
    I like to think that I'm a reasonable man...!


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,561 ✭✭✭Rhyme


    It can depend on how much time you have to react... split second decisions, instinct. Given time, reason.

    Id like to think i act on reason though...


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 20,099 ✭✭✭✭WhiteWashMan


    Atari Jaguar
    no matter what, i would always like to think i have reasoned something through first.

    but of course, when you play sport, a lot of it is instinct.

    or practise. so practise can give instinct. so in fact, a lot of instinct can be put down to learned reasoning.

    for example, someone you find undesirable comes up to you and puts out their hand to shake it.
    do you shake it, or does your instinct tell you to hold back?
    is that instinct not a learned response?

    if you had never seen this person before, would you be so reticent? probably not.
    all of it is reasoning. you just dont neccessarily need to debate the thing for 4 days before doing it :)


  • Advertisement
  • Administrators, Entertainment Moderators, Social & Fun Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 18,781 Admin ✭✭✭✭✭hullaballoo


    I instinctively thought my reason would have been stronger, then realised my mistake.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,618 ✭✭✭Civilian_Target


    Atari Jaguar
    What'd be interesting to know is the average time between someone loading this page and clicking instinct and the average time between someone loading this page and clicking reason.

    I'm sure it varies from person to person - but I've yet to see my reason get beat.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 1,735 ✭✭✭ST*


    Atari Jaguar
    What'd be interesting to know is the average time between someone loading this page and clicking instinct and the average time between someone loading this page and clicking reason.
    I'm sure it varies from person to person - but I've yet to see my reason get beat.

    This is exactly what I done. When someone polls, I read through the options. decide my answer, post it - then I have a look back at what some others said. In day to day situations, I never let other peoples choices effect mine.

    How many others instinctively had a peek at what others said- Really?


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,345 ✭✭✭Somnus


    Reason is stronger than instinct
    If you have time to think about it then i would think reason. But in a split second choice you dont have time to think,thats what makes it instinct. so i'll go with instinct


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 806 ✭✭✭Atrocity


    I use my overpowering twisted reason to formulate my instincts. It generally means failure in many aspects of life


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,659 ✭✭✭Shabadu


    Reason is stronger than instinct
    I have a feeling I know why Simu posted this, having thought similar myself at one stage. I would dearly love to say that I was solely guided by reason, and indeed, would have thought it to be true until the day I held my son in my arms.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 806 ✭✭✭Atrocity


    uld have thought it to be true until the day I held my son in my arms.

    that's nice. I hope something like that comes along for me


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 12,211 ✭✭✭✭Sangre


    Then again if you think of that guy who was sandwiched between rocks in the desert a few years ago, he had enough reason to amputate himself to freedom despite what must have been against some of man's strongest instincts compelling him not to do so

    Then again if you think of that guy who was sandwiched between rocks in the desert a few years ago, his instinct for survival was so strong that he was able to cut off his own arm.

    All reason is based on instinct. Reason helps us achieves those instincts of life and love.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 806 ✭✭✭Atrocity


    but his reasoning, i.e. I cannot survive unless I cut myself free.. formulated his instincts to cut himself since it was the last resort


  • Advertisement
  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 12,211 ✭✭✭✭Sangre


    But why did he reason it? Because he has an instinct to live.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 2,046 ✭✭✭democrates


    Atari Jaguar
    The survival instinct is supposed to be our strongest, but then people can sacrifice themselves for a loved one, their country etc. suggesting love at least sometimes being a stronger instinct.
    What about suicide then, whether from depression or a pact within an ideological sect?
    I think the mind can override anything.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 955 ✭✭✭LovelyHurling


    Hmm...
    Sangre wrote:
    Then again if you think of that guy who was sandwiched between rocks in the desert a few years ago, his instinct for survival was so strong that he was able to cut off his own arm.

    .

    Man has an innate instinct to prevent fatally damaging himself... thats why suicide is said to be such a difficult physical act. Ever tried to break your own leg? Well I have and its bloody hard!
    Just saying, he knew there was only one way out and that went against his instincts of self protection, which are about the strongest as you can get imo.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 12,211 ✭✭✭✭Sangre


    I think you're missing the point
    We know he overcame hurting himself. Why? To save his life. Why did he want to do that? Because of an instinct to live and avoid death.
    Sure he used his brain to get out but fear of death let him chop his arm off.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 20,099 ✭✭✭✭WhiteWashMan


    Atari Jaguar
    Sangre wrote:

    All reason is based on instinct. .

    Sangre wrote:
    Reason helps us achieves those instincts of life and love.

    are these two statements not conflicting?

    which came first, the chicken or the egg?


  • Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Social & Fun Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 60,113 Mod ✭✭✭✭Tar.Aldarion


    Atari Jaguar
    If you want an accurate answer, the two are inseperably intertwined for humans at the moment and probably forever. One affects the other and always will. If it comes down to it as you say, well you are just using a combination of both and there is no stopping that. How much one runs your life is on the individual.
    Our society determines some of our reasoning and instinct and we are always guided by natural and the 'learned'. There is no seperating them.

    I think I should have clicked Hmm... :)


  • Advertisement
  • Closed Accounts Posts: 955 ✭✭✭LovelyHurling


    Hmm...
    If in doubt choose Atari Jaguar, its worked so far...


  • Administrators, Entertainment Moderators, Social & Fun Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 18,781 Admin ✭✭✭✭✭hullaballoo


    WWM wrote:
    which came first, the chicken or the egg?
    Damn it! That's exactly what I was going to say.

    Only an hour and a half too late as well.


  • Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Social & Fun Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 60,113 Mod ✭✭✭✭Tar.Aldarion


    Atari Jaguar
    The chicken, as it evolved from things that did not lay eggs, easy really.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 12,211 ✭✭✭✭Sangre


    The egg (dinosaur eggs that is).

    I don't think they conflict WWM. As Tar said they are both intertwined. Reason is a logical extension of our base instincts. Im kind of working off a Freud model her of the ego, id and superego.
    We are born with pure instinct and reason develops to help us achieve these or minimise loss. By instinct I mean desire to live and reproduce not 'gut feelings'


  • Administrators, Entertainment Moderators, Social & Fun Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 18,781 Admin ✭✭✭✭✭hullaballoo


    Sangre might have a good point there. Maybe the thread title is a misnomer, and what it should be is something like 'Is emotion stronger than reason'. Instinct and reason aren't necessarily mutually exclusive, they are in fact very strongly congruent.

    Whereas emotion and reason are notoriously inconsistant.


  • Advertisement
  • Closed Accounts Posts: 2,046 ✭✭✭democrates


    Atari Jaguar
    A baby cries when born, what can be inferred from that?


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 806 ✭✭✭Atrocity


    The baby's hungry?


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 2,046 ✭✭✭democrates


    Atari Jaguar
    The greedy git! Could be the sudden cold too.
    Thing is the crying response is there already, it wasn't learned.

    Freezing in terror looks to be instinctual too, a survival trick based on colorblind predators sensitive to motion.

    But as we grow we can develop the ability to override our instincts with priorities other than natural ones, and bar the split-second examples cited, we can opt to act as we decide.

    But Freuds key finding (still the basis of modern psychology) as mentioned is key, the sub-conscious can shape our priorities in ways we may not realise. A very powerful mind can be an unwitting puppet.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 20,099 ✭✭✭✭WhiteWashMan


    Atari Jaguar
    The chicken, as it evolved from things that did not lay eggs, easy really.


    like what?
    how do you know?


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 10,730 ✭✭✭✭simu


    Reason is stronger than instinct
    Shabadu wrote:
    I have a feeling I know why Simu posted this, having thought similar myself at one stage. I would dearly love to say that I was solely guided by reason, and indeed, would have thought it to be true until the day I held my son in my arms.

    Well, I was actually inspired by the Baywatch theme tune. !


    In us we all have the power
    But sometimes its so hard to see
    And instinct is stronger than reason
    It's just human nature to me..
    Don't you worry!
    Its gonna be alright
    'cause I'm always ready,
    I won't let you out of my sight.
    I'll be ready (I'll be ready)
    Never you fear (no don't you fear)
    I'll be ready
    Forever and always
    I'm always here.


    But back on topic, I remember reading about some study recently that suggested that people make decisions before they are aware of them - anyone got any links? Thanks!


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 20,099 ✭✭✭✭WhiteWashMan


    Atari Jaguar
    Sangre wrote:
    The egg (dinosaur eggs that is).

    there was a lot of life on earth before dinosaurs.
    Sangre wrote:
    Reason is a logical extension of our base instincts.'

    actually no.

    reason is based on logic.

    instincts are not based on logic. they are absed on, as you call it 'gut feeling'. i fail to see how reasoning and rational thinking are evident in 'gut feeling'.

    so no, reason is not an extension of base instincts.
    Sangre wrote:
    . Im kind of working off a Freud model her of the ego, id and superego.

    i completely fail to see what the self has to do with instinct. youe going to have to explain that one rather than spout out some impressive sounding sentences.
    id be interested to hear your theories though...
    Sangre wrote:
    We are born with pure instinct and reason develops to help us achieve these or minimise loss.

    do you not think that over time, we have reasoned to the point that it becomes instinct in our evolution?
    Sangre wrote:
    By instinct I mean desire to live and reproduce not 'gut feelings'

    oh, you mean a sense of self preservation, which is nothing to do with instinct?
    im sorry, this thread is about instinct...


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 12,211 ✭✭✭✭Sangre


    there was a lot of life on earth before dinosaurs.
    So? My point was the egg came before the chicken :p
    actually no.

    reason is based on logic.
    I don't recall thinking otherwise.
    instincts are not based on logic. they are absed on, as you call it 'gut feeling'. i fail to see how reasoning and rational thinking are evident in 'gut feeling'.
    I never said they were. I wasn't talking about gut feelings. If anything gut feelings are based on reason you can't articulate or remember. Often called instinct, it is anything but.
    so no, reason is not an extension of base instincts.

    Yes it is. Instinct is the need to live. Reason helps us achieve those aims. I'm not too pushed about getting into complex theories on it as I'm sure there are others much more qualified.
    /QUOTE]
    i completely fail to see what the self has to do with instinct. youe going to have to explain that one rather than spout out some impressive sounding sentences.
    id be interested to hear your theories though...
    I wasn't spouting anything merely a glancing reference to the basis of what I was talking about.

    do you not think that over time, we have reasoned to the point that it becomes instinct in our evolution?
    I don't understand you question here

    oh, you mean a sense of self preservation, which is nothing to do with instinct?
    im sorry, this thread is about instinct...

    Self preservation is everything to do with instinct. That and reproduction are the ultimate instincts. Everything else is subordinate.

    To sum up my opinions briefly:
    We are born as blank slates comprising of just an instinct to live and mate. Anything else that develops is based on those notions and assits in a means to achieving them whether we realise it or not.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 20,099 ✭✭✭✭WhiteWashMan


    Atari Jaguar
    Sangre wrote:
    So? My point was the egg came before the chicken :p

    at some stage, something mutated and developed.
    after all, mammals dont lay eggs?
    Sangre wrote:
    I don't recall thinking otherwise./QUOTE]

    er, you said...
    instinct is based on logic.

    it isnt. i seem to recall you thinkin otherwise.
    Sangre wrote:
    Yes it is. Instinct is the need to live. Reason helps us achieve those aims. I'm not too pushed about getting into complex theories on it as I'm sure there are others much more qualified.

    no its ok, id like to hear them, especially the freudian one. although i was not aware that frued ever did anything on instinct, usually preferring to analyse the psychy, id be greatly interested to hear your theory.
    i expect it goes along the lines of 'you have instinct becuase you have an oedipus complex'!

    or are you just avoiding that now?
    Sangre wrote:
    I don't understand you question here
    .

    if you practise heading a football for long enough, when somone crosses the ball during a game, your natural instinct will be to try and head the ball.

    practise, and hence reasoning, becomes a natural thing for you. so over hundreds of millions of years, do you not think that self preservation reasoning will get inbuilt into the system.

    so in fact, what you call instinct, is just millions of years of programming, or logical rationalisation if you prefer?

    does that make my question any clearer?
    Sangre wrote:
    Self preservation is everything to do with instinct. That and reproduction are the ultimate instincts. Everything else is subordinate.
    .


    are they?
    well, i guess thats a subjective viewpoint and not fact.
    Sangre wrote:
    To sum up my opinions briefly:
    We are born as blank slates comprising of just an instinct to live and mate. Anything else that develops is based on those notions and assits in a means to achieving them whether we realise it or not.

    so when yo popped out, were smakced on your arse by the doctor, your first instinct was what?
    to cry?

    thats a short time to develop a notion.

    id much rather believe its an instinct for ou to cry when you are smacked. or youre hungry. these are base body reactions.
    having a sense of awareness about yourself is not an instinct. have a sense of self preservation, is not an instinct. look at the PI forum, theres always a few people around who want to top themselves. self preservation can be linked to depression. a state of mind. and therefore, rational (or sometimes not rational, but the conscious thought is still there)

    i do not believe that self preservation or the need to procreate are instincts.
    i think the joy of sex and the orgasm have helped this species to pro-create rather than some unconscious need to make babies.

    i think when i shine a light in my eyes, my pupils dilate. i think if you prick me with a pin, then i say 'ow' i think instinct is something that is built in deep in the physical body.

    gut instincts come from an unconscious thought based on availble information. but it is based on experience, and there for is not instinct.

    but of course, it all depends on where youre coming from :)


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 288 ✭✭hepcat


    Reason is stronger than instinct
    "i think the joy of sex and the orgasm have helped this species to pro-create rather than some unconscious need to make babies."

    I disagree - I think the joy of sex and orgasm exist solely so that we will procreate and make babies - natures inducement if you will. All life forms share the comon urge / need / instinct to procreate and ensure the survival of their species. Natures primary aim is to make babies, not have fun.


  • Administrators, Entertainment Moderators, Social & Fun Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 18,781 Admin ✭✭✭✭✭hullaballoo


    I can't believe there are two people actually arguing about whether the chicken came before the egg. I love this place.


  • Advertisement
Advertisement