Is instinct stronger than reason?

simu

Which one wins out when it comes down to it and your head is on the line?

I'd say instinct does win out but let this AH poll decide for once and for all!

DEmeant0r

simu wrote:

Which one wins out when it comes down to it and your head is on the line?

I'd say instinct does win out but let this AH poll decide for once and for all!

Sometimes you don't have enough time to make a proper choice with reason, so you just go with your instinct, I picked hmm...

Cake Fiend

Reason is stronger than instinct

Push come to shove, I'd say instinct, but the relative strength of instinct to reason would depend on the person. Some people seem to be so naturally logically-minded that you'd wonder.

Another interesting question might be which would win out between natural instinct and something that has become 'learned' instinct.

Tar.Aldarion

Atari Jaguar

In a lot of cases instinct would win out but it varies from person to person.
If you have a phobia of mice, os spiders in Ireland...your instinct is winning out I suppose. I see some peoples unreasonable fears and paranoia and I know instinct is controlling them.
As humans progress, reason is winning more and more...well sometimes.
Violence is now controlled better, as with sexual urges, both of these are very strong pychological instincts.
I would hope to say that I am a most reasonable person and rarely let instinct get the better of me.
Hopefully reason will win out.
When it comes down to it, reason/logic for me but I know people who are quite different.

Dizzyblabla

Reason is stronger than instinct

I think instinct too, although, I think my reason should be listened to more often!

ST*

Atari Jaguar

Everyone deals with things differently. I listen to reason though.

Lamia

Reason is stronger than instinct

I went with instinct, i would have thought that people's powers of reasoning can be flawed?
As said above, some people have an instinctive fear of spiders without any apparent reason for it.

impr0v

The answer is largely dependent on the time in which the choice has to be made. Initially my instinct said to click the instinct option, but then after a while I reasoned that reason would be the more reasonable choice.

ST*

Atari Jaguar

Lux16 wrote:

i would have thought that people's powers of reasoning can be flawed?As said above, some people have an instinctive fear of spiders without any apparent reason for it.

Why flawed? (out of interest)
Fear of spiders is different, thats a learned response.

Tar.Aldarion

Atari Jaguar

impr0v wrote:

The answer is largely dependent on the time in which the choice has to be made. Initially my instinct said to click the instinct option, but then after a while I reasoned that reason would be the more reasonable choice.

Fear of the unknown and what is different from humans is instinctive, 'kill it!!!'
Reasoning lets you overcome violent instincts such as this.

Sangre

The basic instincts of survival and reproduction dictate how we do everything whether we know it or not.

Lamia

Reason is stronger than instinct

Shock_treatment wrote:

Why flawed? (out of interest)
Fear of spiders is different, thats a learned response.

Well i was thinking along the lines of murders, psychopaths etc..they reason with themselves that what they're doing is okay.

id be more likely to trust my instinct because i dont have the best powers of reasoning!
How is fear of spiders a learned response? it's just that they dont harm you so why would you be scared of them?

Tar.Aldarion

Atari Jaguar

Lux16 wrote:

How is fear of spiders a learned response? it's just that they dont harm you so why would you be scared of them?

Tar.Aldarion wrote:

Fear of the unknown and what is different from humans is instinctive, 'kill it!!!'
Reasoning lets you overcome violent instincts such as this.

.

Lamia

Reason is stronger than instinct

Missed that one

fair point.

LovelyHurling

Hmm...

Sangre wrote:

The basic instincts of survival and reproduction dictate how we do everything whether we know it or not.

Think you're right there, like the theory that women have a wider field of vision and prefer a dimly lit space because they were traditionally the nest builders and protectors. And that men have a better focal vision and are more likely to feel comfortable in bright light than females because of their traditional hunter-gatherer role.

Then again if you think of that guy who was sandwiched between rocks in the desert a few years ago, he had enough reason to amputate himself to freedom despite what must have been against some of man's strongest instincts compelling him not to do so

Cake Fiend

Reason is stronger than instinct

Lux16 wrote:

How is fear of spiders a learned response?

A phobia is developed, rather than being innate.

Other people's replies made me realize I wasn't specific enough with mine - I was thinking along the lines of a split-second decision where there's not enough time to logically validate an option.

If we're talking about more of the 'gut-feeling' type of instinct, then I'd (personally) side with reason.

So I suppose instinct is stronger in the very short term, reason (for me at least) in the longer term.

NoDayBut2Day

Atari Jaguar

impr0v wrote:

The answer is largely dependent on the time in which the choice has to be made. Initially my instinct said to click the instinct option, but then after a while I reasoned that reason would be the more reasonable choice.

Same here.

Mr.Nice Guy

Atari Jaguar

Reason.

I'm a bit worried about the number of people who chose instinct.

I wouldn't want to get on the wrong side of you lot after you've had a few beers...

Dave!

Atari Jaguar

I like to think that I'm a reasonable man...!

Rhyme

It can depend on how much time you have to react... split second decisions, instinct. Given time, reason.

Id like to think i act on reason though...

WhiteWashMan

Atari Jaguar

no matter what, i would always like to think i have reasoned something through first.

but of course, when you play sport, a lot of it is instinct.

or practise. so practise can give instinct. so in fact, a lot of instinct can be put down to learned reasoning.

for example, someone you find undesirable comes up to you and puts out their hand to shake it.
do you shake it, or does your instinct tell you to hold back?
is that instinct not a learned response?

if you had never seen this person before, would you be so reticent? probably not.
all of it is reasoning. you just dont neccessarily need to debate the thing for 4 days before doing it

hullaballoo

I instinctively thought my reason would have been stronger, then realised my mistake.

Civilian_Target

Atari Jaguar

What'd be interesting to know is the average time between someone loading this page and clicking instinct and the average time between someone loading this page and clicking reason.

I'm sure it varies from person to person - but I've yet to see my reason get beat.

ST*

Atari Jaguar

Civilian_Target wrote:

What'd be interesting to know is the average time between someone loading this page and clicking instinct and the average time between someone loading this page and clicking reason.
I'm sure it varies from person to person - but I've yet to see my reason get beat.

This is exactly what I done. When someone polls, I read through the options. decide my answer, post it - then I have a look back at what some others said. In day to day situations, I never let other peoples choices effect mine.

How many others instinctively had a peek at what others said- Really?

Somnus

Reason is stronger than instinct

If you have time to think about it then i would think reason. But in a split second choice you dont have time to think,thats what makes it instinct. so i'll go with instinct

Atrocity

I use my overpowering twisted reason to formulate my instincts. It generally means failure in many aspects of life

Shabadu

Reason is stronger than instinct

I have a feeling I know why Simu posted this, having thought similar myself at one stage. I would dearly love to say that I was solely guided by reason, and indeed, would have thought it to be true until the day I held my son in my arms.

Atrocity

uld have thought it to be true until the day I held my son in my arms.

that's nice. I hope something like that comes along for me

Sangre

LovelyHurling wrote:

Then again if you think of that guy who was sandwiched between rocks in the desert a few years ago, he had enough reason to amputate himself to freedom despite what must have been against some of man's strongest instincts compelling him not to do so

Then again if you think of that guy who was sandwiched between rocks in the desert a few years ago, his instinct for survival was so strong that he was able to cut off his own arm.

All reason is based on instinct. Reason helps us achieves those instincts of life and love.

Atrocity

but his reasoning, i.e. I cannot survive unless I cut myself free.. formulated his instincts to cut himself since it was the last resort

Sangre

But why did he reason it? Because he has an instinct to live.

democrates

Atari Jaguar

The survival instinct is supposed to be our strongest, but then people can sacrifice themselves for a loved one, their country etc. suggesting love at least sometimes being a stronger instinct.
What about suicide then, whether from depression or a pact within an ideological sect?
I think the mind can override anything.

LovelyHurling

Hmm...

Sangre wrote:

Then again if you think of that guy who was sandwiched between rocks in the desert a few years ago, his instinct for survival was so strong that he was able to cut off his own arm.

.

Man has an innate instinct to prevent fatally damaging himself... thats why suicide is said to be such a difficult physical act. Ever tried to break your own leg? Well I have and its bloody hard!
Just saying, he knew there was only one way out and that went against his instincts of self protection, which are about the strongest as you can get imo.

Sangre

I think you're missing the point
We know he overcame hurting himself. Why? To save his life. Why did he want to do that? Because of an instinct to live and avoid death.
Sure he used his brain to get out but fear of death let him chop his arm off.

WhiteWashMan

Atari Jaguar

Sangre wrote:

All reason is based on instinct. .

Sangre wrote:

Reason helps us achieves those instincts of life and love.

are these two statements not conflicting?

which came first, the chicken or the egg?

Tar.Aldarion

Atari Jaguar

If you want an accurate answer, the two are inseperably intertwined for humans at the moment and probably forever. One affects the other and always will. If it comes down to it as you say, well you are just using a combination of both and there is no stopping that. How much one runs your life is on the individual.
Our society determines some of our reasoning and instinct and we are always guided by natural and the 'learned'. There is no seperating them.

I think I should have clicked Hmm...

LovelyHurling

Hmm...

If in doubt choose Atari Jaguar, its worked so far...

hullaballoo

WWM wrote:

which came first, the chicken or the egg?

Damn it! That's exactly what I was going to say.

Only an hour and a half too late as well.

Tar.Aldarion

Atari Jaguar

The chicken, as it evolved from things that did not lay eggs, easy really.

Sangre

The egg (dinosaur eggs that is).

I don't think they conflict WWM. As Tar said they are both intertwined. Reason is a logical extension of our base instincts. Im kind of working off a Freud model her of the ego, id and superego.
We are born with pure instinct and reason develops to help us achieve these or minimise loss. By instinct I mean desire to live and reproduce not 'gut feelings'

hullaballoo

Sangre might have a good point there. Maybe the thread title is a misnomer, and what it should be is something like 'Is emotion stronger than reason'. Instinct and reason aren't necessarily mutually exclusive, they are in fact very strongly congruent.

Whereas emotion and reason are notoriously inconsistant.

democrates

Atari Jaguar

A baby cries when born, what can be inferred from that?

Atrocity

The baby's hungry?

democrates

Atari Jaguar

The greedy git! Could be the sudden cold too.
Thing is the crying response is there already, it wasn't learned.

Freezing in terror looks to be instinctual too, a survival trick based on colorblind predators sensitive to motion.

But as we grow we can develop the ability to override our instincts with priorities other than natural ones, and bar the split-second examples cited, we can opt to act as we decide.

But Freuds key finding (still the basis of modern psychology) as mentioned is key, the sub-conscious can shape our priorities in ways we may not realise. A very powerful mind can be an unwitting puppet.

WhiteWashMan

Atari Jaguar

Tar.Aldarion wrote:

The chicken, as it evolved from things that did not lay eggs, easy really.

like what?
how do you know?

simu

Reason is stronger than instinct

Shabadu wrote:

I have a feeling I know why Simu posted this, having thought similar myself at one stage. I would dearly love to say that I was solely guided by reason, and indeed, would have thought it to be true until the day I held my son in my arms.

Well, I was actually inspired by the Baywatch theme tune. !


In us we all have the power
But sometimes its so hard to see
And instinct is stronger than reason
It's just human nature to me..
Don't you worry!
Its gonna be alright
'cause I'm always ready,
I won't let you out of my sight.
I'll be ready (I'll be ready)
Never you fear (no don't you fear)
I'll be ready
Forever and always
I'm always here.

But back on topic, I remember reading about some study recently that suggested that people make decisions before they are aware of them - anyone got any links? Thanks!

WhiteWashMan

Atari Jaguar

Sangre wrote:

The egg (dinosaur eggs that is).

there was a lot of life on earth before dinosaurs.

Sangre wrote:

Reason is a logical extension of our base instincts.'

actually no.

reason is based on logic.

instincts are not based on logic. they are absed on, as you call it 'gut feeling'. i fail to see how reasoning and rational thinking are evident in 'gut feeling'.

so no, reason is not an extension of base instincts.

Sangre wrote:

. Im kind of working off a Freud model her of the ego, id and superego.

i completely fail to see what the self has to do with instinct. youe going to have to explain that one rather than spout out some impressive sounding sentences.
id be interested to hear your theories though...

Sangre wrote:

We are born with pure instinct and reason develops to help us achieve these or minimise loss.

do you not think that over time, we have reasoned to the point that it becomes instinct in our evolution?

Sangre wrote:

By instinct I mean desire to live and reproduce not 'gut feelings'

oh, you mean a sense of self preservation, which is nothing to do with instinct?
im sorry, this thread is about instinct...

Sangre

WhiteWashMan wrote:

there was a lot of life on earth before dinosaurs.

So? My point was the egg came before the chicken

WhiteWashMan wrote:

actually no.

reason is based on logic.

I don't recall thinking otherwise.

WhiteWashMan wrote:

instincts are not based on logic. they are absed on, as you call it 'gut feeling'. i fail to see how reasoning and rational thinking are evident in 'gut feeling'.

I never said they were. I wasn't talking about gut feelings. If anything gut feelings are based on reason you can't articulate or remember. Often called instinct, it is anything but.

WhiteWashMan wrote:

so no, reason is not an extension of base instincts.

Yes it is. Instinct is the need to live. Reason helps us achieve those aims. I'm not too pushed about getting into complex theories on it as I'm sure there are others much more qualified.
/QUOTE]

WhiteWashMan wrote:

i completely fail to see what the self has to do with instinct. youe going to have to explain that one rather than spout out some impressive sounding sentences.
id be interested to hear your theories though...

I wasn't spouting anything merely a glancing reference to the basis of what I was talking about.

WhiteWashMan wrote:

do you not think that over time, we have reasoned to the point that it becomes instinct in our evolution?

I don't understand you question here

WhiteWashMan wrote:

oh, you mean a sense of self preservation, which is nothing to do with instinct?
im sorry, this thread is about instinct...

Self preservation is everything to do with instinct. That and reproduction are the ultimate instincts. Everything else is subordinate.

To sum up my opinions briefly:
We are born as blank slates comprising of just an instinct to live and mate. Anything else that develops is based on those notions and assits in a means to achieving them whether we realise it or not.

WhiteWashMan

Atari Jaguar

Sangre wrote:

So? My point was the egg came before the chicken

at some stage, something mutated and developed.
after all, mammals dont lay eggs?

Sangre wrote:

I don't recall thinking otherwise./QUOTE]

er, you said...
instinct is based on logic.

it isnt. i seem to recall you thinkin otherwise.

Sangre wrote:

Yes it is. Instinct is the need to live. Reason helps us achieve those aims. I'm not too pushed about getting into complex theories on it as I'm sure there are others much more qualified.

no its ok, id like to hear them, especially the freudian one. although i was not aware that frued ever did anything on instinct, usually preferring to analyse the psychy, id be greatly interested to hear your theory.
i expect it goes along the lines of 'you have instinct becuase you have an oedipus complex'!

or are you just avoiding that now?

Sangre wrote:

I don't understand you question here
.

if you practise heading a football for long enough, when somone crosses the ball during a game, your natural instinct will be to try and head the ball.

practise, and hence reasoning, becomes a natural thing for you. so over hundreds of millions of years, do you not think that self preservation reasoning will get inbuilt into the system.

so in fact, what you call instinct, is just millions of years of programming, or logical rationalisation if you prefer?

does that make my question any clearer?

Sangre wrote:

Self preservation is everything to do with instinct. That and reproduction are the ultimate instincts. Everything else is subordinate.
.

are they?
well, i guess thats a subjective viewpoint and not fact.

Sangre wrote:

To sum up my opinions briefly:
We are born as blank slates comprising of just an instinct to live and mate. Anything else that develops is based on those notions and assits in a means to achieving them whether we realise it or not.

so when yo popped out, were smakced on your arse by the doctor, your first instinct was what?
to cry?

thats a short time to develop a notion.

id much rather believe its an instinct for ou to cry when you are smacked. or youre hungry. these are base body reactions.
having a sense of awareness about yourself is not an instinct. have a sense of self preservation, is not an instinct. look at the PI forum, theres always a few people around who want to top themselves. self preservation can be linked to depression. a state of mind. and therefore, rational (or sometimes not rational, but the conscious thought is still there)

i do not believe that self preservation or the need to procreate are instincts.
i think the joy of sex and the orgasm have helped this species to pro-create rather than some unconscious need to make babies.

i think when i shine a light in my eyes, my pupils dilate. i think if you prick me with a pin, then i say 'ow' i think instinct is something that is built in deep in the physical body.

gut instincts come from an unconscious thought based on availble information. but it is based on experience, and there for is not instinct.

but of course, it all depends on where youre coming from

hepcat

Reason is stronger than instinct

"i think the joy of sex and the orgasm have helped this species to pro-create rather than some unconscious need to make babies."

I disagree - I think the joy of sex and orgasm exist solely so that we will procreate and make babies - natures inducement if you will. All life forms share the comon urge / need / instinct to procreate and ensure the survival of their species. Natures primary aim is to make babies, not have fun.

hullaballoo

I can't believe there are two people actually arguing about whether the chicken came before the egg. I love this place.