What is Racism?

faceman

this has probably been done before but i want to get people's views on racism WITHOUT getting into a debate about current affairs issues. Looking for opinions on the following:

What is a modern day racist? Is it restricted to country of origin?

Why is it if people speak out about immigration (e.g. introducing work permits similar to the USA etc), they are branded racist?

A black man and 2 white men are standing by a wall? Do you see 1 black man with 2 white men or do u just see 3 people?

Should we treat the travelling community any different to other irish citizens?

Please, no aggressive arguments, just looking for people's opinions.

Gordon

You should probably have posted this in Humanities.

muckwarrior

Well to some people here the very mention of another race means you're a racist. I've even seen a guy argue here that the word black was racist!

Gordon

muckwarrior wrote:

Well to some people here the very mention of another race means you're a racist. I've even seen a guy argue here that the word black was racist!

Link!

zinc

Racism is indiscriminate hatred of another race.

I dont think it extends to discussions of other races, too often racism is applied to any negative discussion of other ethnicities and this is utterly detrimental.

Once we keep a level headed line between not being utter bigots and utter PC obsessed loonies I think the issue isn't as important as the aforementioned groups make it out to be.

Most people who know other races dont talk about race, it dosent come up because its no more than something that a few jokes come out of (yes PC brigade, minorities and Irish people make jokes about each other! :eek: ).

I've always found that the more excluded and far away from the reality of the situation someone is the more likely they are likely to be obsessed with racism or else being racist themselves.

Its a sad state of affairs when we are having our opinions centred in case somebodys feelings are hurt, if you start that you are telling other races or minorities that they are too weak to defend themselves and only the middle class white intellectuals can defend you now.

JustCoz

A black man and 2 white men are standing by a wall? Do you see 1 black man with 2 white men or do u just see 3 people?

Well anyone who's not colourblind will see 2 white men and a black man. It's if you have a problem with the fact that someone is black or white that racism comes into play. But in my opinion it's important to recognise peoples differences otherwise we're all the same. How boring!

faceman

Gordon wrote:

You should probably have posted this in Humanities.

Im aware of that, but i wanted to post it in after hours to try get a less left and right extreme bunch of ppl if that makes sense?

muckwarrior

Gordon wrote:

Link!

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=295769&page=5

Rabies

Talking about travellers in certain matters would not be racist in my opinion. Travellers have a different society and culture to the majority of Irish people.

Racism is when a person or group has a hatred against a different race. Racists class others as inferiors instead as equals because of the colour of their skin.

Ireland is new to the racism. Only in the past 10yrs or so has Ireland seen an influx of different races and religions.

Have you ever seen young children playing. A group of children consisting of mixed races will have very little tension if any based on skin colour. Move the age group up to late childhood/teens and the judgements of parents/friends start to show through jokes and conversation.

Having worked with many nationalites through work I have seen how some people react to people of another race and culture.

Racism is got from your up bringing. It isn't something you are born with.

zinc

JustCoz wrote:

Well anyone who's not colourblind will see 2 white men and a black man. It's if you have a problem with the fact that someone is black or white that racism comes into play. But in my opinion it's important to recognise peoples differences otherwise we're all the same. How boring!

WTF? Obviously you see their colours, thats what makes them diverse and interesting. My God, has it come to this kind of stuff?

muckwarrior

Rabies wrote:

Racism is got from your up bringing. It isn't something you are born with.

Very true. Usually bourne out of fear and ignorance IMO.

Rabies

@OP.
Of course you would see a black person and two white people. That doesn't make a person a racist.

the_menace

faceman wrote:

What is a modern day racist? Is it restricted to country of origin?

It's got absolutely nothing to do with country of origin. It's prejudice against someone of a different race.

faceman wrote:

Why is it if people speak out about immigration (e.g. introducing work permits similar to the USA etc), they are branded racist?

Because the people branding with racism are idiots.

faceman wrote:

A black man and 2 white men are standing by a wall? Do you see 1 black man with 2 white men or do u just see 3 people?

Both. I see 3 people. One is black and the other two are white.

faceman wrote:

Should we treat the travelling community any different to other irish citizens?

If they contribute nothing to society yet expect something back in return then we shouldn't entertain them. If they contribute to society for the better and ask for something in return then no. Pretty simple methinks.

faceman wrote:

Please, no aggressive arguments, just looking for people's opinions.

Grrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr

Hobbes

Gordon wrote:

Link!

I don't need to supply a link because my neighbour knows this guy who I can't mention his name for privacy reasons says so. :v:

Complaining about run-ins with certain minorities is not racist. Claiming that the majority of a certain group are X is not racist providing you can actually back that up with facts. If your just BS'ing, giving a number of personal examples to prove a majority or claiming your best friends second cousins friend claims its true then its racist (or just plain ignorant).

Talking about travellers in certain matters would not be racist in my opinion. Travellers have a different society and culture to the majority of Irish people.

The defination of race also includes "ethnic origin" (different society and culture). So yes travellers would fall under that. Certainly the UK believe this and travellers are protected under the race relations act.

Btw, why did we need to have a second thread on this? there was a thread on AH only a day ago about this.

muckwarrior

Hobbes wrote:

I don't need to supply a link because my neighbour knows this guy who I can't mention his name for privacy reasons says so.

Ahem.

ST*

Hobbes wrote:

I don't need to supply a link because my neighbour knows this guy who I can't mention his name for privacy reasons says so

Because giving out names, addresses and phone numbers is the way to go Hobbesy

Hobbes

Shock_treatment wrote:

Because giving out addresses and phone numbers is the way to go...

Well I spoke to my neighbour and he said thats true and he would never lie and anyone who disagrees is lying. He knows everything. :v:

the_menace

Hobbes wrote:

Complaining about run-ins with certain minorities is not racist.

Can you provide a link to prove this please?

Hobbes wrote:

Claiming that the majority of a certain group are X is not racist providing you can actually back that up with facts.

Can you back this up with some facts please? Link...

Hobbes wrote:

If your just BS'ing, giving a number of personal examples to prove a majority or claiming your best friends second cousins friend claims its true then its racist (or just plain ignorant).

Can you prove this hypothesis please? Any links you could provide us with would substantiate your argument.

From what I gather from your posts Hobbes, you take people's anecdotal evidence and rubbish it because it conflicts with your views. That's just childish. I've had dozens, DOZENS of run-ins with travellers and only two or three times had good or neutral experiences with them. I say the majority of travellers are scumbags, you say no. Now - do you think I'm a lying racist or do you think that I've just been unlucky? That's what I want to know.

As far as I'm concerned, PC ninjas are nothing more than the dullards of web forums across the globe. You've either got enough experience to have an opinion or you should keep your mouth shut. And helping travellers for a living doesn't count - living amongst or near them does.

Hobbes

the_menace wrote:

From what I gather from your posts Hobbes, you take people's anecdotal evidence and rubbish it because it conflicts with your views.

Hello Kettle.

I say the majority of travellers are scumbags, you say no. Now - do you think I'm a lying racist or do you think that I've just been unlucky? That's what I want to know.

I think you are unlucky, or some of it could be based on your bias on past experiences.

Of course you know you can't prove that the majority are scumbags because there is no proof that this is the case (based on numerous reports), that is your opinion. Not fact. Thats fine its your opinion. Its when you start claiming it as fact, that is when it comes under racism.

WhiteWashMan

Hobbes wrote:

Claiming that the majority of a certain group are X is not racist providing you can actually back that up with facts.

black people are 150% more intelligent than any other colour of person.
is that a racist remark?

would it be different if i were to say:
white people are 150% more intelligent than any other colour of person.

i think you need to re-examine what your definition of racism is, because its different than mine.

how about:
all irish people wear green jackets, are always drunk, have red hair and fight?

is that racism or is it just a stereotypical misconception?

for me, racism is not about holding opininos be the right or wrong, its about an inherant belief of superiority over a certain race.

i think the best definition i have come across is this:
An attitude, action or institutional structure, which subordinates a person or group because of their color. Racism involves having the power to carry out systematic discriminatory practices.

someone recently called someone on the motors forum (whom i later banned as it happens) a racist becuase he said that he nearly got killed by a black man in a car. the man was clearly a foreigner.

how is that racist?

now, if he had posted up, 'i was nearly killed by one of those filthy **** that are flooding our country' that i would have called racism.

racism by action is pretty clear, but racism by word is a lot different.
its all about tone.

i call my work colleague 'ethnic boy'. he is brown. i call him that, becuase he always says things like 'is it coz i is efffnik?'
he calls me 'you crazy irish bas7ard'

these are not racist.

my old boss used to say that all the irish did was get drunk. in fact, he used to say it at client meetings.
thats not racist.

the fact is that racism is incredibly hard to define. but some people seem to get offended on behalf of the silent minority (is it imperative that you be a minority for it to be racism? i dont think so) very easily. they appear a little too PC. demanding facts and figures. when really, there is nothing there.

thats my opinion on the matter. no doubt many people will disagree.

and thats ok. im not too worried. but you wont all agree on a single definition of racism here. and i have no doubts that this thread will decend into its usual petty point scoring excersize that usually accompanies such topics......


now, i feel dirty after a serious post. im off to watch lost.

muckwarrior

WhiteWashMan wrote:

thats my opinion on the matter. no doubt many people will disagree.

I for one agree wholeheartedly. Finally the voice of reason!

billy the squid

muckwarrior wrote:

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=295769&page=5

did you read the post that linked to

I don't think I like the idea of being pulled over by an Indian garda - period. It'd just be wierd getting talked down to by some paki in my own country - I can just picture the hairy guy with an Apu accent in a Garda uniform - it just looks wrong. Or even worse - imagine getting a bollocking from a French guy!

the statement above is racist though. complete with derogetory terms.

muckwarrior

billy the squid wrote:

did you read the post that linked to

I was actually talkin about a post further down the page.

the_menace

Hobbes wrote:

Hello Kettle.

Yeah, another good one. :rolleyes:

Hobbes wrote:

I think you are unlucky, or some of it could be based on your bias on past experiences.

The overwhelming majority of my numerous experiences with travellers have been negative. I'd hardly call it an irrational bias nor would I say that it's my opinion that travellers are scum. They've proved it with their actions. It's really just that simple.

Maybe you've been lucky?

billy the squid

the_menace wrote:

Yeah, another good one. :rolleyes:



The overwhelming majority of my numerous experiences with travellers have been negative. I'd hardly call it an irrational bias nor would I say that it's my opinion that travellers are scum. They've proved it with their actions. It's really just that simple.

Maybe you've been lucky?

Actually only the ones that you have had run ins have proved that they, as individuals, are scum. they have not proven that the entire community are scum though. Unless you have been mugged/beaten up/conned by at least 11,501 travellers, then you cannot claim that a majority are scum.

rubadub

WhiteWashMan wrote:

for me, racism is not about holding opininos be the right or wrong, its about an inherant belief of superiority over a certain race.

I think that is the general view. I always like to take a step back and think of things fundamentally and technically.

In another thread I gave my definition as being prejudiced to people of different races, races being mongoloid, caucasoid, negroid, australoid. They were the races in my geography book and in encyclopedias growing up. Now on boards it seems people have all these new races like southsider, traveller, northsider, culchie, brit, nigerian, polish. A lot of people use it in place of the word prejudiced.

By my definition it is not just a belief in superiority, it would be any prejudiced view such as all mongoloids are good drivers. (BTW would you describe a black man who thinks whites are superior as racist, or vice versa)

Hobbes

Here is what I think, people try to argue about what a word is so they can get an excuse to post whatever crap they want. Rather then argue what they are spouting they can claim "hey he called me names" which distracts from the issue at hand.

TBH Its like using "Liberal" as a swear word in the politics forum.

http://www.knowracism.ie/information/faq.html

Although it is a government site and we all know how they like to lie. :rolleyes:

seamus

faceman wrote:

A black man and 2 white men are standing by a wall? Do you see 1 black man with 2 white men or do u just see 3 people?

Two men and a woman are standing by a wall - do you see 2 men and a woman or three people? Two adults and a child are standing by a wall - do you see 2 adults and a child or three people?

See how ridiculous that is now?

faceman

seamus wrote:

Two men and a woman are standing by a wall - do you see 2 men and a woman or three people? Two adults and a child are standing by a wall - do you see 2 adults and a child or three people?

See how ridiculous that is now?

Race has nothing to do with your counter arguement so i dont see the relevence of your point. PLease explain.

seamus

Exactly. It has nothing to do with race, and everything to do with discrimination. My examples are equally as "valid" as yours as examples of discrimination.

faceman

seamus wrote:

Exactly. It has nothing to do with race, and everything to do with discrimination. My examples are equally as "valid" as yours as examples of discrimination.

Yes but we are talking specifically about racism here and me making the point in my original thread was not personal opinion, i was seeking other ppl's views.

Altho despite this little bit of banter between me and you, i think we're both on the same hymn sheet on this point.