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What is Racism?

  • 04-01-2006 6:44pm
    #1
    Moderators, Category Moderators, Arts Moderators, Entertainment Moderators, Social & Fun Moderators Posts: 16,664 CMod ✭✭✭✭


    this has probably been done before but i want to get people's views on racism WITHOUT getting into a debate about current affairs issues. Looking for opinions on the following:

    What is a modern day racist? Is it restricted to country of origin?

    Why is it if people speak out about immigration (e.g. introducing work permits similar to the USA etc), they are branded racist?

    A black man and 2 white men are standing by a wall? Do you see 1 black man with 2 white men or do u just see 3 people?

    Should we treat the travelling community any different to other irish citizens?

    Please, no aggressive arguments, just looking for people's opinions.


«1

Comments

  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 35,524 ✭✭✭✭Gordon


    You should probably have posted this in Humanities.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,104 ✭✭✭muckwarrior


    Well to some people here the very mention of another race means you're a racist. I've even seen a guy argue here that the word black was racist!


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 35,524 ✭✭✭✭Gordon


    Well to some people here the very mention of another race means you're a racist. I've even seen a guy argue here that the word black was racist!
    Link!


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 140 ✭✭zinc


    Racism is indiscriminate hatred of another race.

    I dont think it extends to discussions of other races, too often racism is applied to any negative discussion of other ethnicities and this is utterly detrimental.

    Once we keep a level headed line between not being utter bigots and utter PC obsessed loonies I think the issue isn't as important as the aforementioned groups make it out to be.

    Most people who know other races dont talk about race, it dosent come up because its no more than something that a few jokes come out of (yes PC brigade, minorities and Irish people make jokes about each other! :eek: ).

    I've always found that the more excluded and far away from the reality of the situation someone is the more likely they are likely to be obsessed with racism or else being racist themselves.

    Its a sad state of affairs when we are having our opinions centred in case somebodys feelings are hurt, if you start that you are telling other races or minorities that they are too weak to defend themselves and only the middle class white intellectuals can defend you now.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 575 ✭✭✭JustCoz


    A black man and 2 white men are standing by a wall? Do you see 1 black man with 2 white men or do u just see 3 people?

    Well anyone who's not colourblind will see 2 white men and a black man. It's if you have a problem with the fact that someone is black or white that racism comes into play. But in my opinion it's important to recognise peoples differences otherwise we're all the same. How boring!


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  • Moderators, Category Moderators, Arts Moderators, Entertainment Moderators, Social & Fun Moderators Posts: 16,664 CMod ✭✭✭✭faceman


    Gordon wrote:
    You should probably have posted this in Humanities.

    Im aware of that, but i wanted to post it in after hours to try get a less left and right extreme bunch of ppl if that makes sense?


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,104 ✭✭✭muckwarrior




  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 15,258 ✭✭✭✭Rabies


    Talking about travellers in certain matters would not be racist in my opinion. Travellers have a different society and culture to the majority of Irish people.

    Racism is when a person or group has a hatred against a different race. Racists class others as inferiors instead as equals because of the colour of their skin.

    Ireland is new to the racism. Only in the past 10yrs or so has Ireland seen an influx of different races and religions.

    Have you ever seen young children playing. A group of children consisting of mixed races will have very little tension if any based on skin colour. Move the age group up to late childhood/teens and the judgements of parents/friends start to show through jokes and conversation.

    Having worked with many nationalites through work I have seen how some people react to people of another race and culture.

    Racism is got from your up bringing. It isn't something you are born with.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 140 ✭✭zinc


    JustCoz wrote:
    Well anyone who's not colourblind will see 2 white men and a black man. It's if you have a problem with the fact that someone is black or white that racism comes into play. But in my opinion it's important to recognise peoples differences otherwise we're all the same. How boring!

    WTF? Obviously you see their colours, thats what makes them diverse and interesting. My God, has it come to this kind of stuff?


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,104 ✭✭✭muckwarrior


    Rabies wrote:
    Racism is got from your up bringing. It isn't something you are born with.
    Very true. Usually bourne out of fear and ignorance IMO.


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 15,258 ✭✭✭✭Rabies


    @OP.
    Of course you would see a black person and two white people. That doesn't make a person a racist.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 157 ✭✭the_menace


    faceman wrote:
    What is a modern day racist? Is it restricted to country of origin?

    It's got absolutely nothing to do with country of origin. It's prejudice against someone of a different race.
    faceman wrote:
    Why is it if people speak out about immigration (e.g. introducing work permits similar to the USA etc), they are branded racist?

    Because the people branding with racism are idiots.
    faceman wrote:
    A black man and 2 white men are standing by a wall? Do you see 1 black man with 2 white men or do u just see 3 people?

    Both. I see 3 people. One is black and the other two are white.
    faceman wrote:
    Should we treat the travelling community any different to other irish citizens?

    If they contribute nothing to society yet expect something back in return then we shouldn't entertain them. If they contribute to society for the better and ask for something in return then no. Pretty simple methinks.
    faceman wrote:
    Please, no aggressive arguments, just looking for people's opinions.

    Grrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 21,264 ✭✭✭✭Hobbes


    Gordon wrote:
    Link!

    I don't need to supply a link because my neighbour knows this guy who I can't mention his name for privacy reasons says so. :v:

    Complaining about run-ins with certain minorities is not racist. Claiming that the majority of a certain group are X is not racist providing you can actually back that up with facts. If your just BS'ing, giving a number of personal examples to prove a majority or claiming your best friends second cousins friend claims its true then its racist (or just plain ignorant).
    Talking about travellers in certain matters would not be racist in my opinion. Travellers have a different society and culture to the majority of Irish people.

    The defination of race also includes "ethnic origin" (different society and culture). So yes travellers would fall under that. Certainly the UK believe this and travellers are protected under the race relations act.

    Btw, why did we need to have a second thread on this? there was a thread on AH only a day ago about this.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,104 ✭✭✭muckwarrior


    Hobbes wrote:
    I don't need to supply a link because my neighbour knows this guy who I can't mention his name for privacy reasons says so.
    Ahem.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 1,735 ✭✭✭ST*


    Hobbes wrote:
    I don't need to supply a link because my neighbour knows this guy who I can't mention his name for privacy reasons says so

    Because giving out names, addresses and phone numbers is the way to go Hobbesy ;)


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 21,264 ✭✭✭✭Hobbes


    Because giving out addresses and phone numbers is the way to go...

    Well I spoke to my neighbour and he said thats true and he would never lie and anyone who disagrees is lying. He knows everything. :v:


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 157 ✭✭the_menace


    Hobbes wrote:
    Complaining about run-ins with certain minorities is not racist.

    Can you provide a link to prove this please?
    Hobbes wrote:
    Claiming that the majority of a certain group are X is not racist providing you can actually back that up with facts.

    Can you back this up with some facts please? Link...
    Hobbes wrote:
    If your just BS'ing, giving a number of personal examples to prove a majority or claiming your best friends second cousins friend claims its true then its racist (or just plain ignorant).

    Can you prove this hypothesis please? Any links you could provide us with would substantiate your argument.

    From what I gather from your posts Hobbes, you take people's anecdotal evidence and rubbish it because it conflicts with your views. That's just childish. I've had dozens, DOZENS of run-ins with travellers and only two or three times had good or neutral experiences with them. I say the majority of travellers are scumbags, you say no. Now - do you think I'm a lying racist or do you think that I've just been unlucky? That's what I want to know.

    As far as I'm concerned, PC ninjas are nothing more than the dullards of web forums across the globe. You've either got enough experience to have an opinion or you should keep your mouth shut. And helping travellers for a living doesn't count - living amongst or near them does. ;)


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 21,264 ✭✭✭✭Hobbes


    the_menace wrote:
    From what I gather from your posts Hobbes, you take people's anecdotal evidence and rubbish it because it conflicts with your views.

    Hello Kettle.
    I say the majority of travellers are scumbags, you say no. Now - do you think I'm a lying racist or do you think that I've just been unlucky? That's what I want to know.

    I think you are unlucky, or some of it could be based on your bias on past experiences.

    Of course you know you can't prove that the majority are scumbags because there is no proof that this is the case (based on numerous reports), that is your opinion. Not fact. Thats fine its your opinion. Its when you start claiming it as fact, that is when it comes under racism.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 20,099 ✭✭✭✭WhiteWashMan


    Hobbes wrote:
    Claiming that the majority of a certain group are X is not racist providing you can actually back that up with facts.


    black people are 150% more intelligent than any other colour of person.
    is that a racist remark?

    would it be different if i were to say:
    white people are 150% more intelligent than any other colour of person.

    i think you need to re-examine what your definition of racism is, because its different than mine.

    how about:
    all irish people wear green jackets, are always drunk, have red hair and fight?

    is that racism or is it just a stereotypical misconception?

    for me, racism is not about holding opininos be the right or wrong, its about an inherant belief of superiority over a certain race.

    i think the best definition i have come across is this:
    An attitude, action or institutional structure, which subordinates a person or group because of their color. Racism involves having the power to carry out systematic discriminatory practices.

    someone recently called someone on the motors forum (whom i later banned as it happens) a racist becuase he said that he nearly got killed by a black man in a car. the man was clearly a foreigner.

    how is that racist?

    now, if he had posted up, 'i was nearly killed by one of those filthy **** that are flooding our country' that i would have called racism.

    racism by action is pretty clear, but racism by word is a lot different.
    its all about tone.

    i call my work colleague 'ethnic boy'. he is brown. i call him that, becuase he always says things like 'is it coz i is efffnik?'
    he calls me 'you crazy irish bas7ard'

    these are not racist.

    my old boss used to say that all the irish did was get drunk. in fact, he used to say it at client meetings.
    thats not racist.

    the fact is that racism is incredibly hard to define. but some people seem to get offended on behalf of the silent minority (is it imperative that you be a minority for it to be racism? i dont think so) very easily. they appear a little too PC. demanding facts and figures. when really, there is nothing there.

    thats my opinion on the matter. no doubt many people will disagree.

    and thats ok. im not too worried. but you wont all agree on a single definition of racism here. and i have no doubts that this thread will decend into its usual petty point scoring excersize that usually accompanies such topics......


    now, i feel dirty after a serious post. im off to watch lost.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,104 ✭✭✭muckwarrior



    thats my opinion on the matter. no doubt many people will disagree.
    I for one agree wholeheartedly. Finally the voice of reason!


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 12,811 ✭✭✭✭billy the squid



    did you read the post that linked to
    I don't think I like the idea of being pulled over by an Indian garda - period. It'd just be wierd getting talked down to by some paki in my own country - I can just picture the hairy guy with an Apu accent in a Garda uniform - it just looks wrong. Or even worse - imagine getting a bollocking from a French guy!

    the statement above is racist though. complete with derogetory terms.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,104 ✭✭✭muckwarrior


    did you read the post that linked to
    I was actually talkin about a post further down the page.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 157 ✭✭the_menace


    Hobbes wrote:
    Hello Kettle.

    Yeah, another good one. :rolleyes:
    Hobbes wrote:
    I think you are unlucky, or some of it could be based on your bias on past experiences.

    The overwhelming majority of my numerous experiences with travellers have been negative. I'd hardly call it an irrational bias nor would I say that it's my opinion that travellers are scum. They've proved it with their actions. It's really just that simple.

    Maybe you've been lucky? ;)


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 12,811 ✭✭✭✭billy the squid


    the_menace wrote:
    Yeah, another good one. :rolleyes:



    The overwhelming majority of my numerous experiences with travellers have been negative. I'd hardly call it an irrational bias nor would I say that it's my opinion that travellers are scum. They've proved it with their actions. It's really just that simple.

    Maybe you've been lucky? ;)


    Actually only the ones that you have had run ins have proved that they, as individuals, are scum. they have not proven that the entire community are scum though. Unless you have been mugged/beaten up/conned by at least 11,501 travellers, then you cannot claim that a majority are scum.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 32,386 ✭✭✭✭rubadub


    for me, racism is not about holding opininos be the right or wrong, its about an inherant belief of superiority over a certain race.
    I think that is the general view. I always like to take a step back and think of things fundamentally and technically.

    In another thread I gave my definition as being prejudiced to people of different races, races being mongoloid, caucasoid, negroid, australoid. They were the races in my geography book and in encyclopedias growing up. Now on boards it seems people have all these new races like southsider, traveller, northsider, culchie, brit, nigerian, polish. A lot of people use it in place of the word prejudiced.

    By my definition it is not just a belief in superiority, it would be any prejudiced view such as all mongoloids are good drivers. (BTW would you describe a black man who thinks whites are superior as racist, or vice versa)


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 21,264 ✭✭✭✭Hobbes


    Here is what I think, people try to argue about what a word is so they can get an excuse to post whatever crap they want. Rather then argue what they are spouting they can claim "hey he called me names" which distracts from the issue at hand.

    TBH Its like using "Liberal" as a swear word in the politics forum.

    http://www.knowracism.ie/information/faq.html

    Although it is a government site and we all know how they like to lie. :rolleyes:


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 68,317 ✭✭✭✭seamus


    faceman wrote:
    A black man and 2 white men are standing by a wall? Do you see 1 black man with 2 white men or do u just see 3 people?
    Two men and a woman are standing by a wall - do you see 2 men and a woman or three people? Two adults and a child are standing by a wall - do you see 2 adults and a child or three people?

    See how ridiculous that is now?


  • Moderators, Category Moderators, Arts Moderators, Entertainment Moderators, Social & Fun Moderators Posts: 16,664 CMod ✭✭✭✭faceman


    seamus wrote:
    Two men and a woman are standing by a wall - do you see 2 men and a woman or three people? Two adults and a child are standing by a wall - do you see 2 adults and a child or three people?

    See how ridiculous that is now?

    Race has nothing to do with your counter arguement so i dont see the relevence of your point. PLease explain.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 68,317 ✭✭✭✭seamus


    Exactly. It has nothing to do with race, and everything to do with discrimination. My examples are equally as "valid" as yours as examples of discrimination.


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  • Moderators, Category Moderators, Arts Moderators, Entertainment Moderators, Social & Fun Moderators Posts: 16,664 CMod ✭✭✭✭faceman


    seamus wrote:
    Exactly. It has nothing to do with race, and everything to do with discrimination. My examples are equally as "valid" as yours as examples of discrimination.

    Yes but we are talking specifically about racism here and me making the point in my original thread was not personal opinion, i was seeking other ppl's views.

    Altho despite this little bit of banter between me and you, i think we're both on the same hymn sheet on this point. :)


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 68,317 ✭✭✭✭seamus


    My point though is that your example is spurious. I see two white men and a black man. That doesn't mean I'm racist, same as in my examples, I see two men and a woman doesn't make me sexist, etc.


  • Moderators, Category Moderators, Arts Moderators, Entertainment Moderators, Social & Fun Moderators Posts: 16,664 CMod ✭✭✭✭faceman


    seamus wrote:
    My point though is that your example is spurious. I see two white men and a black man. That doesn't mean I'm racist, same as in my examples, I see two men and a woman doesn't make me sexist, etc.

    Grand fair enuff, thats ur opinion. However not everyone will have the same view. Me, i just see 3 people. I spent a number of years living in an african country as an irish ex-pat so maybe im different.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 32,386 ✭✭✭✭rubadub


    faceman wrote:
    Me, i just see 3 people. I spent a number of years living in an african country as an irish ex-pat so maybe im different.
    You wouldnt be much use to the gardai as a witness to a crime, "my attacker was a person, thats all your getting out of me".

    I have lived in a country with women around for all my life, I would still see 2 men and a woman. This topic has been discussed before, it is simply a description, you are not being racist, ageist, sexist, heightist, you are just noticing details.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 20,099 ✭✭✭✭WhiteWashMan


    Hobbes wrote:
    Here is what I think, people try to argue about what a word is so they can get an excuse to post whatever crap they want. Rather then argue what they are spouting they can claim "hey he called me names" which distracts from the issue at hand.

    TBH Its like using "Liberal" as a swear word in the politics forum.

    http://www.knowracism.ie/information/faq.html

    Although it is a government site and we all know how they like to lie. :rolleyes:

    doesnt say what you think racism is though.....


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 140 ✭✭BigArnie


    faceman wrote:
    Grand fair enuff, thats ur opinion. However not everyone will have the same view. Me, i just see 3 people. I spent a number of years living in an african country as an irish ex-pat so maybe im different.

    Are you suggesting that you don't notice the difference in skin colour between black and white people? Are you colourblind?


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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 29,130 ✭✭✭✭Karl Hungus


    Hobbes wrote:
    Here is what I think, people try to argue about what a word is so they can get an excuse to post whatever crap they want. Rather then argue what they are spouting they can claim "hey he called me names" which distracts from the issue at hand.

    TBH Its like using "Liberal" as a swear word in the politics forum.

    http://www.knowracism.ie/information/faq.html

    Although it is a government site and we all know how they like to lie. :rolleyes:

    I find that terminology highly offensive!
    Racism is a specific form of discrimination and exclusion faced by minority ethnic groups.

    This ridiculous definition propagates the dire misconception that only white people can be racist.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 21,264 ✭✭✭✭Hobbes


    doesnt say what you think racism is though.....

    Geez, you want to know just read a dictionary. Oh and racism does define an ethnic group (Travellers) which is why people are getting thier panties in a knot.

    I already posted a link as well.
    http://www.knowracism.ie/information/faq.html

    The point I am getting across is that the issue is with a word, but with distracting from what someone posts as crap.

    eg.

    Person 1: Hey all the Irish people who live near me drink a lot so Ireland are a nation of drunks.
    Person 2: Thats kind of racist dont' you think? Can you prove everyone is?
    Person 1: Hey you don't know what the term Racist means so stop calling me it.
    Person 3: I don't think you are racist, can you prove what you said though?
    Person 1: If you don't think I am then why are you demanding the same thing?
    ... ad nauseum. Person 1 gets away without ever having to prove thier assumption.

    Before this we had numerous similar threads from SF Tourists where they would argue the name calling but would never get into a debate about thier assumption about group X.
    This ridiculous definition propagates the dire misconception that only white people can be racist.

    How do you figure that out then? I don't read it as such at all. I don't see anywhere it mentions "white" people. Well I can see how you see "minority" group as such, but generally rasicm is generally directed where the target is the minority not necessarly defined as the population.

    If you do find it offensive though, drop them an email.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 29,130 ✭✭✭✭Karl Hungus


    Hobbes wrote:
    How do you figure that out then? I don't read it as such at all. I don't see anywhere it mentions "white" people. Well I can see how you see "minority" group as such, but generally rasicm is generally directed where the target is the minority not necessarly defined as the population.

    Perhaps it would have been more diplomatic of me to say that it propagates the misconception that people of "Minority groups" are exempt from racism, but the fact is it's saying that racism is only faced by these groups, and seeing as it's an Irish website, and Ireland is a predominantly White country, it's basically giving the message that white people are the only persons capable of being, or are actually being, racist. I say white, simply because this isn't solely an Irish issue, as it mirrors in pretty much any predominantly white country, there is the same misconception that it is only these people who can be racist, and any racism on the part of said minorities is a myth, or non-existant.
    Hobbes wrote:
    If you do find it offensive though, drop them an email.

    I think I might.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 20,099 ✭✭✭✭WhiteWashMan


    yes, shame on those black people in south africa being racist towards the white minority!


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 17 AdviseMan


    zinc wrote:
    Racism is indiscriminate hatred of another race.

    I dont think it extends to discussions of other races, too often racism is applied to any negative discussion of other ethnicities and this is utterly detrimental.

    Once we keep a level headed line between not being utter bigots and utter PC obsessed loonies I think the issue isn't as important as the aforementioned groups make it out to be.

    Most people who know other races dont talk about race, it dosent come up because its no more than something that a few jokes come out of (yes PC brigade, minorities and Irish people make jokes about each other! :eek: ).

    I've always found that the more excluded and far away from the reality of the situation someone is the more likely they are likely to be obsessed with racism or else being racist themselves.

    Its a sad state of affairs when we are having our opinions centred in case somebodys feelings are hurt, if you start that you are telling other races or minorities that they are too weak to defend themselves and only the middle class white intellectuals can defend you now.



    Some of this is waffle in my opinion......you seem to have made an effort to affect verbosity..."Racism is indiscriminate hatred of another race." That isn't nearly the whole picture. You don't have to hate someone to be racist. Racism is having an attitude or opinion or treating someone is a certain way depending soley on "race". You don't have to hate a whole race to be racist. It's not really that complicated people. Noticing that someone is black/white/blue/green/pink thinking to yourself hey that person is black/white/blue/green/pinkis in no way shape or means racist. Saying that person is black/white/blue/green/pinktherefore they are such and such is racist...it doesn't have to be negative. The vast majority or people are in some way racist, and I'm not just talking about skin colour. I have some preconceived notions about retired american tourists being fat, loud and annoying, this is in effect racist. I personally work in a very diverse multi-cultural environment and people are always slagging each other about their roots. But in a good hearted banter-like way. No one gets offended, in the same way that no one from cork would get gravely offended if i started slagging their accent.


    The most horrible thing I find with racism is a lot of people don't seem to understand what it means......this most elementary undertanding when taken on a mass level is what caused the holocaust. It wasn't Nazi Germany saying "hate all Jews". Its was a slow, subtle, discusting attitude change...saying Germany is in economic trouble because Jews did such and such. If anything it's the opposite of hatred, a cold blooded attitude to someone based purely on ill-conceived "logic".


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 21,264 ✭✭✭✭Hobbes


    yes, shame on those black people in south africa being racist towards the white minority!

    Again minority does not equate to population. In your example it would be based on those in power, blacks were clearly a minority in this instance.

    Thats not to say some blacks may of been racist, but generally racism has its most negative impact when your presumptions of a "race" effect the outcome of a situation and that generally happens when the victim is the minority in that area.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 17 AdviseMan


    black people are 150% more intelligent than any other colour of person.
    is that a racist remark?

    would it be different if i were to say:
    white people are 150% more intelligent than any other colour of person.

    i think you need to re-examine what your definition of racism is, because its different than mine.

    how about:
    all irish people wear green jackets, are always drunk, have red hair and fight?

    is that racism or is it just a stereotypical misconception?

    for me, racism is not about holding opininos be the right or wrong, its about an inherant belief of superiority over a certain race.

    i think the best definition i have come across is this:
    An attitude, action or institutional structure, which subordinates a person or group because of their color. Racism involves having the power to carry out systematic discriminatory practices.

    someone recently called someone on the motors forum (whom i later banned as it happens) a racist becuase he said that he nearly got killed by a black man in a car. the man was clearly a foreigner.

    how is that racist?

    now, if he had posted up, 'i was nearly killed by one of those filthy **** that are flooding our country' that i would have called racism.

    racism by action is pretty clear, but racism by word is a lot different.
    its all about tone.

    i call my work colleague 'ethnic boy'. he is brown. i call him that, becuase he always says things like 'is it coz i is efffnik?'
    he calls me 'you crazy irish bas7ard'

    these are not racist.

    my old boss used to say that all the irish did was get drunk. in fact, he used to say it at client meetings.
    thats not racist.

    the fact is that racism is incredibly hard to define. but some people seem to get offended on behalf of the silent minority (is it imperative that you be a minority for it to be racism? i dont think so) very easily. they appear a little too PC. demanding facts and figures. when really, there is nothing there.

    thats my opinion on the matter. no doubt many people will disagree.

    and thats ok. im not too worried. but you wont all agree on a single definition of racism here. and i have no doubts that this thread will decend into its usual petty point scoring excersize that usually accompanies such topics......


    now, i feel dirty after a serious post. im off to watch lost.


    I agree whole heartidly with some the sentiment, however you are wrong(in my opinion). To say Irish people are always drunk is racist. Racism doesn't have to cause grave ill effects, more so it's important to undestand the ill effects a racist attitude CAN have. You don't have to believe you are superior to someone to have a racist attitude. It is racist to think german people have anal attitudes towards work, are never late and have a strange sense of humour BUT the person who thinks that doesn't have to think they are superior. In fact it might be the opposite. It's like someone saying "I wish I was kenyan they're all good at marathons". This is undeniably a racist statement BUT the person saying it doesn't have to believe they are superior. Maybe in most cases the superior thing happens to come into play but that doesn't make your defintion anything near absoloute. And I'm not trying to take things to extemes here., I'm just stating facts. It would be a lot more accurate to say racism is most damaging when in invloves an opinion of "an inherant belief of superiority over a certain race".

    To get back to what you said:

    "my old boss used to say that all the irish did was get drunk. in fact, he used to say it at client meetings.
    thats not racist."


    I think what you meant to say it this isn't offensive. It was, is now and ever shall be a racist attitude. I don't find it offensive either by the way. But what if you changed the context. If your boss wasn't Irish would that make it racist? What's the difference the superior attitude again? Does this mean a person cannot make a racist comment about their own race? What if it was someone who happened to have black skin talking about other people who happen to have black skin? What makes it not be racist, the fact that the person who said it was Irish? This is in effect racist.....to explain


    1. John an Irishman says Irishman are always drunk.
    According to your definition this is not racist.
    2. John an Englishman says Irishman are always drunk.
    So is this racist?

    Now what if John is an Englishmans whose parents are Irish....it gets into ridiculousness then. To me a statement is not racist dependant on who said it but on the statement in itself taken in exclusion...

    To recap Racism doesn't have to be offensive, but not understanding racism can lead to offence being taken.

    OK my poor Irish hungover brain needs a rest.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 8,323 ✭✭✭Savman


    Unless you have been on the receiving end, none of you can can offer an educated opinion on what is and what isn't racism.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 20,099 ✭✭✭✭WhiteWashMan


    Savman wrote:
    Unless you have been on the receiving end, none of you can can offer an educated opinion on what is and what isn't racism.

    i have.
    as someone who was born in another country, i have been racially abused by irish people.
    as someone who is a protestant, i have been racially abused by pro-IRA catholics.
    as someone who holds an irish passport, i have been racially abused in the UK.
    as someone who lives in the UK, i have been racially abused by irish people.
    as a jakeen, i have been racially abused by culchies.
    as a spurs supporter, i have been racially abused by arsenal supporters.

    in all of these instances, i am not talking about good natured slagging.

    i am talking about abuse, both verbal and physical. i am talking about harrassment. i am talking about bullying and intimidation


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 17 AdviseMan


    Savman wrote:
    Unless you have been on the receiving end, none of you can can offer an educated opinion on what is and what isn't racism.

    My girlfriend has never been on the receiving end of a blow job but she certainly knows what it it. I personally have never been murdered, in fact I'd go so far to say I've never even seen a murder but I know what it is. Get over yourself, if you've suffered from racist discrimmination I feel for you, it doesn't invalidate my opinion though.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 4,424 ✭✭✭joejoem


    faceman wrote:
    this has probably been done before but i want to get people's views on racism WITHOUT getting into a debate about current affairs issues. Looking for opinions on the following:

    What is a modern day racist? Is it restricted to country of origin?

    Why is it if people speak out about immigration (e.g. introducing work permits similar to the USA etc), they are branded racist?

    A black man and 2 white men are standing by a wall? Do you see 1 black man with 2 white men or do u just see 3 people?

    Should we treat the travelling community any different to other irish citizens?

    Please, no aggressive arguments, just looking for people's opinions.


    Well, I could be wrong, but I believe uh... Racisim is an old, old wooden ship that was used during the Civil War era..........


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 8,323 ✭✭✭Savman


    AdviseMan wrote:
    it doesn't invalidate my opinion though.

    Actually, yes it does. You're spouting out crap about issues you couldn't possibly understand, and that definately invalidates your opinion in my eyes. Why the hell would anyone listen to you? Because you "feel" for the "brothas" in Boyz In Tha Hood?

    Like I said, unless you've been on the receiving end, you will never know, be grateful for that instead of such a smartass. :rolleyes:


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 8,323 ✭✭✭Savman


    joejoem wrote:
    Well, I could be wrong, but I believe uh... Racisim is an old, old wooden ship that was used during the Civil War era..........

    :D:D


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 8,323 ✭✭✭Savman


    i have.
    as someone who was born in another country, i have been racially abused by irish people.
    as someone who is a protestant, i have been racially abused by pro-IRA catholics.
    as someone who holds an irish passport, i have been racially abused in the UK.
    as someone who lives in the UK, i have been racially abused by irish people.
    as a jakeen, i have been racially abused by culchies.
    as a spurs supporter, i have been racially abused by arsenal supporters.

    in all of these instances, i am not talking about good natured slagging.

    i am talking about abuse, both verbal and physical. i am talking about harrassment. i am talking about bullying and intimidation

    So *maybe* you have an idea what I'm on about. The cold hard truth is I have never actually met a racist person, or at least that's what they think. Most people don't know what racism is, which makes this a semi-interesting thread but you'll excuse me if I don't heed the random opinions of people who think they understand such a global problem. If it was that simple it wouldn't be an issue, I don't "understand" heroin junkies, so I don't pretend to have an educated opinion on it, likewise with alcoholism or any issue I've never been directly involved with.

    To pass judgement simply by what I read in newspapers and seen on the telly would make me an ignorant fool...:rolleyes:


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 17 AdviseMan


    Savman wrote:
    Actually, yes it does. You're spouting out crap about issues you couldn't possibly understand, and that definately invalidates your opinion in my eyes. Why the hell would anyone listen to you? Because you "feel" for the "brothas" in Boyz In Tha Hood?

    Like I said, unless you've been on the receiving end, you will never know, be grateful for that instead of such a smartass. :rolleyes:



    Savman, name calling is something someone does in despiration when the cannot articulate or when they are losing an argument.



    I don't feel like I should have to "explain" myself before my opinion is vailidated but maybe this might help. I consider myself to be Irish but my grandparents on my mothers side are Turkish. I've been told many horror stories by my parents, but I personally have never had anything I'd consider abusive other than the odd idiot "halfcast" taunt playing gaa years ago. But to be honest I never really took anything like that personally(I would now), if it wasn't that it'd probably be a culshie taunt. Mostly I found other people got more offended on my behalf.

    This message a board. People express their opinions. You are not the almighty authority. You can say you think I'm wrong but saying that I don't have the right to an opinion is the type of exclusionary attitude that causes problems.


    Hey f*ck it I'm going to be a smart arse...it's ironic you are excluded one group of peoples opinions based purely on their backgrounds.


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