Curious about Islam and Suicide Bombing

wasper

Currently I can think of a single armed conflict in the world that doesn't have Islam on one side of the fight.[/QUOTE]
Let me see, Peru, Colombia, Nicaragua, El Slavador, Haiti, Sierra Leone, Liberia, Congo, Hutu/Tutsi, Nepal, Yugoslavia, Falklands war. Do I need to add more here. Basque in Spain. Oh yes and to crown it with Northern Ireland.

Wibbs

Freelancer wrote:

1700.

Thats the number of attacks on abortion doctors in the USA since 1977, by fundamental christians.

Religious muppets all. Unreal. That said, if you can find the religious text that tells them to kill abortion doctors, I'd be interested. Don't remember the line "kill doctors". Must have been in the DVD extras of the sermon on the mount.:D

The flip side of this, if you take the bible literally you should be stoning people who plant the seeds of two different crops in the same field, and I should be allowed to sleep with my slave if my wife cannot conceive.

Laughable ain't in it.

Talking the word of The Koran or the Bible literally can usually lead to trouble , and moderate Christians and Muslims, will admit that the meaning of their holy books need to be re-interperated for the modern world.

Difficult as both sides reckon that not a word of it can be changed(especially true with Islam).

Its the fundamentalists on both sides of fence who cause the problems, be it Pat Robertson claiming Arial Sharon's stroke is punishment from God, or Mohamed El-Moctar El-Shinqiti calling for Jihad.

The difference is that you could argue quite convincingly that Mohamed El-Moctar book tells him he's right.

Sand wrote:

An important point to remember that Mohammed existed, warts and all...../..... there is no evidence Jesus of the Gospel existed. But then, it wouldnt be a matter of faith if there was.

At this stage most historians would agree that there was someone called jesus preaching in Judea at that time. Details differ but earlier writings(some roman) than the gospels exist which mention him in that context. As for fighting the Romans, many comments attributed to him would go against that, "give all to caesar that's Caesars, my kingdom is not of this world" etc. Not much cop as a freedom fighter.

My point is its not fair on Mohammed to compare any failings he may have had as a human to a man/myth that may have actually been a constructed heroic image of Che Guerva proportions...

I take your point, but what would be common among most of the world's other religions would be a non violent slant from their founders. It's not just down to the sands of time obliterating the details either. If you look at Sikhism which comes to us from the more recent 16/17th centuries, you just don't get the emperial, violent, murderous slant inherent in Islam's foundation and subsequent history. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sikhism Even after Mohammeds death, 3 out of the first 4 Caliphs of the faith were murdered by their own in internecine fighting. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Caliphs

I suppose the main difference between Islam and Christianity is that Islams formative years came as they conquered an empire, whereas Christianitys came as they were victims of an empire.

True, but you could also argue that Islam created, not conquered an empire.

Hence different perspectives on state power and justification of violence.

Good point.

The concept of just christian war came centuries after the founding of the religion,

and against the tenets of the religion itself.

but it came much, much faster with Islam.

and is inherent in the religious texts themselves. I can think of no other mainstream religion like Islam, with religious texts that lay down the specific reasons and methodology for the prosecution of earthly "holy" war.

I've more faith in humanity though, considering that 99% of Muslims don't go around robbing, enslaving or killing unbelievers and the 1% of f*ckwits that do, don't even follow the instructions on how to do it from their own religious books.

Suff

jimmycrackcorm wrote:

Back on topic.....

My theory is that such fundamentalist view come from Islam being a seemingly so strict religion that binds people to a viewpoint that seems completely unquestionable.

If you look at Catholics and contraception - sure who pays attention and if a sin is committed then you can just avail of confession. Not very strict at all.

Islam is not Strict at all !!! its simple
Christainty is way more strick than Islam, if you would consider a comeplete study of each in terms of rules and practices, Islam would be the softest and the easiest to follow.
However.. Islam is seen as a strict these days as many people don't follow any practice or law in their life.
If all christains would follow the exact word of the bible they would be considered extreme and fundamentalists.

Hobbes

Wibbs wrote:

Religious muppets all. Unreal. That said, if you can find the religious text that tells them to kill abortion doctors, I'd be interested. Don't remember the line "kill doctors". Must have been in the DVD extras of the sermon on the mount.:D

Interpretation. Under Christian principles, one can act to defend another's life.

DinoBot

Are the suicide bombers non-believers ?

In recent years there has been much much debate on the issue of suicide bombing, some groups say its allowed and some say its not. At the end of the day the Koran can be shown to allow a lot of things if you want. But I think all this talk is cheap. I think Islam is facing a real problem.

One the one hand its trying to say its against Islam to kill civilians and then on the other they justify it by saying that the US is doing just that so why cant we. I find at a grass root level muslims themselves are very slow to denounce this type of activity. I would equate it to the troubles in the north. On the whole the Irish people were against killing people but when push came to shove they would be up for the IRA "defending" the people up the north.

I think Islam must move away from this violent nature that has taken hold of it. But I do fear that it is so ingrained that this would be impossible.

Zombrex

Wibbs wrote:

That said, if you can find the religious text that tells them to kill abortion doctors, I'd be interested. Don't remember the line "kill doctors".

I don't remember the Qu'ran saying go kill Americans either ....

It is all about interpretation. Paul Hill, who shot an abortion doctor and his body guard in 1994 strongly disagreed with a reporter who asked him how he justified his actions when the Bible says all killing is wrong. He could quote a number of passages that supported his position that killing abortion doctors was not only justified but a necessary role of a good Christian, including the story of Abraham and Lot in Geneisis.

The same thing happens when you try and reason with a Muslim suicide bomber saying that the Qu'ran says Muslims and Christians should live in peace, and that suicide is wrong. They can pick out a number of stores and quotes that expain no actually blowing up a bus of children is ok.

The point is that anyone can find anything in any of the main Judo/Christian/Islamic religions to support their position if they have already made there mind up want to. The teachings of the religions are so vage and from a different time that anything goes if you want it too.

There is nothing "safer" in the teachings of Christianity to would stop someone determined to kill someone else. Paul Hill, a fundamentalist christian, taught killing 2 men was perfectly in side the teachings of his religion, the teachings of Jesus. How would you convince him it isn't?

Wibbs

Wicknight wrote:

I don't remember the Qu'ran saying go kill Americans either ....

It does however repeatedly say to kill, subdue and tax all unbelievers though. Also, the Quran and Hadeeth show how the Prophet himself did just that to spread the religion by force of arms. That particular flavour of mad guff you don't tend to find among the other religions.

It is all about interpretation.

I agree with you. Don't get me wrong. In the hands of loonies the religious texts are all as bad as each other. I don't worry so much about the loonies. I worry about the common or garden devout type and with Islam that group are far more likely to start or condone well dodgy behaviour than a devout Hindu, Buddhist, Christian, Sikh or Jew.

The same thing happens when you try and reason with a Muslim suicide bomber saying that the Qu'ran says Muslims and Christians should live in peace, and that suicide is wrong.

Talliesin's previous post was a beauty on the reasons for suicide bombing itself. As for the Quran saying Christians and Muslims should live in peace, I suggest you read it. Between the Quran and the Hadeeth there are far more passages that contradict that ideal than support it. In fact check out the attitude to the Jews in both books. That's real enlightening altogether.

Also while suicide is considered wrong, death in battle is rewarded by virgins and flowing wine in eternal gardens of delight(what female bombers get is beyond me as there's no mention of their rewards). From that logic as you say you can convince the gullible that killing in this way is OK.

The point is that anyone can find anything in any of the main Judo/Christian/Islamic religions to support their position if they have already made there mind up want to. The teachings of the religions are so vage and from a different time that anything goes if you want it too.

Agreed. The problem is the large number of people who subscribe to living by the mores of such an archaic age.

There is nothing "safer" in the teachings of Christianity to would stop someone determined to kill someone else.

As I've said, you can do sweet fanny adams about nutters, but any faith that started in violence, preaches violence and msitrust towards unbelievers and rewards violence with hot and cold running virgins in heaven, is far more likely to attract the nuttier element.

Paul Hill, a fundamentalist christian, taught killing 2 men was perfectly in side the teachings of his religion, the teachings of Jesus. How would you convince him it isn't?

Well, I wouldn't bother. I'd just lock him in a rubber room, as he's nuttier than squirrel sh!t.

Gangsta

Well, Islam doesn't allow it at all and says whoever commits suicide goes straight to hell. Tbh if a suicide bomber was asked for a hand on heart answer I'd say he/she saw no other way out.

Also we all hear it's only the Muslims who do the suicide bombings but unfortunately the media doesn't report that Palestine has many Christians and Jews who have done such acts...:(